Oh Graeme,

This sounds so strongly of polity ... extreme ends looking at the same thing from opposing perspectives? Like sort of Kissing an old way good bye!

Could single visioned peoples do this ...

Graeme,

OK I finally figured it out.  Your response (seemingly to me) on "Under-Reported Conflicts" was not really to me, but to Mely.   Mely wrote post just before mine pointing out that not everyone thought Israeli's were evil.

Now, Mely's post may not have been carefully thought out from a historical viewpoint, but the problem, Graeme, is that neither are a great many of the posts I read on this site.   They are full of their own prejudices and ignorance, albeit about different groups of people.   

For example, "Easy Does it", on his post "Support the Palestinians" seems to be a mirror image of Mely.   He is taking a simplistic attitude on a hugely complex problem.

Consider his statement:

In any case, I plan to be waving a Palestinian flag at demonstrations which I hope will take place in the Toronto area. What about the rest of you...will you be doing anything at all?

Now, I do not know EDI, for all I know he a strong personal reason for his viewpoint (perhaps his wife or best friend is a Palestinian or something along those lines).   But without some personal angle, his statement strikes me as strange: he has a developed an obsession with the topic (EDI actually owns a Palestinian flag?  I can assure you Mely does not own an Israeli flag).

So it is a case of "nuanced opinion for me but not for thee".   And that does not play.   

And also, the root problem here is ignorance of history.   I  am trying valiantly to inform people about under-reported conflicts, but I do have a day job and cannot spend all my time on this site, trying to educate people.

And finally, there is the "churches-stick-together" problem.   UCC does its sister churches in Palestine a favour by supporting them.    

But UCC is remarkably silent on the Armenian occupation of Nagorny Karabakh. In total, Armenia is occupying 14% of Azerbaijan's territory, including areas outside Nagorny Karabakh as a security buffer--hey--sounds like the Israel/Pal conflict, and it is, complete with hundreds of thousands of refugee Azeri's which, oddly enough, nobody cares about.  

But do not expect UCC to take a stand on Nagorny Karabakh because they will not do anything in public that would anger the Armenian Orthodox Church.

Quite likely. That's why I try to prod our clergy. But they shed prods like a cat shes hair.

To support the Palestinian bid for nationhood now does nothing to help anybody.

The issue is power, hatred, bigotry, fear on both sides. A    two-state solution (probably impossible for Palestine, anyway from an economic point of view) just gives what we have now - to groups, each polarized around power, hatred, bigotry and fear.

Let us see if any of the Rev's who read WC respond to the Nagorny Karabakh challenge.

Not that I really think UCC making public statements one way or another on it would make any difference, though, anymore than it has with Is/Pal.

Going to hell in a handbasket.

I agree.  But it's not public statements I want the church to make. These would be close to useless, anyway. But I do think that the clergy should be stirring their congregations to think about the faith implications of the behaviour that they support.

Much of the message of Jesus was about how we should behave on earth. Very little of it was about showering brainless praise on Him.

Great stuff, clergy. Keep all those posts coming.

The world is in the most dangerous position it has ever been in - at least some of it due to our side. Canadians are now bombing Sirte in Libya, with what must be heavy civilian casualties.  We are facing years of war, with Canada involved, in Africa and Asia, possibly in Latin America.  At the same time that most of us suffer or will soon suffer from recession, the rich have become obscenely rich.

we are getting no leadership from our news media, and precious little from any level of government.

No, I don't think we should create a theocracy. But I should really like to know is whether there is any Christian context in which we can judge the mass murder, plundering, and torture that is going on with us as participants.

If the teachings of Christ can offer no insight into this, or any guidelines to consider, why don't you just close down your churches, and free up some space for the homeless. Jesus won't mind. Obviously, He's not using the places.

Graeme,

Coming out of CCF SK root, trunk, branch, limb and several leaves, I have never left it to my clergy to say anything.  I just go ahead and say it myself .  Why disempower one's self as a peasant when one can be empowered as a rooted piece of grass?

 What happens is eventually, the cowards either get embarrassed that acting as a bureaucrat  isn't working for him/her in the congregation and move on, or that he/she gets political, not wanting to be left behind.

I envy you.

I, also, have been thinking about the questions that graeme is asking. We hear a lot of  rationalizations for war and the status quo.  You know ... "How can you negotiate with terrorists?"  or "Yes but they deny Israel's right to exist!" and so on; that type of thing; the reasons you must fight; the reasons why suffering must continue (for now).  War and aggression can always be rationalized (and they always have been) and often it is rationalized that there is "no choice" and that it must therefore be waged (as a matter of self-defence).  Rational arguments will inevitably take us where they always take us, namely, to war in the name of serving the prevailing power structures and protecting the prevailing interests.  

I was driving somewhere the other day and it came to me that Jesus (and therefore, I would hope, Christianity too)  had spiritual answers that always would trump the rational arguments (rationalizations)  that are continually advanced to justify war, aggression and the delay of justice (which last item is usually found to cost too much ... at least right now ... or is too difficult to implement or there are other more pressing matters etc.).  I wondered if anyone could summarize those spiritual arguments because as a lawyer I find myself daily immersed in the practical rationalizations and find that I understand such everyday arguments (for after all they are as common as dirt) well and as a result I, myself, turn to them almost automatically.  On the other hand, spiritual arguments do not trip as easily from my tongue (or pen).

There must be a Christian spiritual viewpoint that argues something like this, "Someone has perpetrated an act of terror against us, but we will not be tempted to resort to the use of military force or retaliation in kind against the perpetrators but trust that our lived unity with all of humanity will be enough to deliver us up safe from such evils ... and we will be governed by that NO MATTER WHAT ... AND ALWAYS.

What I was hoping for was for someone (maybe clergy) might take a stab at enunciating the argument/viewpoint that trumps all practical rationalization and then perhaps spell out what form (actions taken or not taken) that viewpoint might dictate in real life ... perhaps in a real situation that occurred in recent history, perhaps in Libya ... or Afghanistan or Iraq for instance ... or in Canada's jails or ... well you get the idea.

Turn the other cheek? Love your enemies? Forgive someone who's hurt us 700x7 times.

If armies/ nations would think before retaliating about why their enemies hate them in the first place...where do these roots of hatred point to that run so deep, enough for a country to wage war? We need armies of culturally competent counsellors and diplomatic negotiators--peace strategists, not war-room strategists, not weapons, not fear-mongering--then maybe we could undo some of the hatred that leads to war.

We need armies of Nelson Mandellas and Desmond Tutu's and Dali Lamas (not himself a Christian, but a friend nonetheless)! Not rambos!

The argument I was discussing was the case of churches taking stands on issues in which they and their congregants have no direct stake.  

Examples:  Israel/Palestine, Nagorny Karabakh.

UCC has taken a stand on Is/Pal, because it has been asked to do so by churches in Palestine.   It has no other reason for taking a stand on that one issue, of all the issues in the world today.

In Nagorny Karabakh, it is Armenian Christians who currently have the upper hand.   The question is, will they take a stand on an issue where it is Christians (and not Israel) that have the upper hand.

(Note, both issues are very complex and cannot be reduced to simple good-guy/bad-guy.   But at the moment, Israel occupies the West Bank, as Armenia occupies a portion of Azerbaijan.  That is what I mean by "upper hand.").   

I am not saying either issue is black and white or simple.

Let me say, at the outset, that there is no political solution to the problem of politics.

Those who trust in politics are deceived.

By definition politics, the adaptable instrument of power deployed in the service of profit, privilege and pride, divides neighbour from neighbour; nation from nation.

Indeed, politics has divided the very heart of us each and all - so that we justify our service of money as the service of God.

Shall I go on....?

There is such a Christian spiritual viewpoint, qwerty. It comes from Jesus, actually; well stated in Matthew 5:

 ‘You have heard that it was said, “An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.” But I say to you, Do not resist an evildoer. But if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other also; and if anyone wants to sue you and take your coat, give your cloak as well; and if anyone forces you to go one mile, go also the second mile. Give to everyone who begs from you, and do not refuse anyone who wants to borrow from you. ‘You have heard that it was said, “You shall love your neighbour and hate your enemy.” But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be children of your Father in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax-collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers and sisters, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Over the centuries, many have wondered what Jesus could have meant when he told his followers to "be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." Tall order. In the context of this passage, I think it means to be perfectly loving, perfectly forgiving and perfectly merciful. That seems to be what Jesus was saying in his many examples. Put into practical terms, what should be the response? I don't believe that Jesus is meaning that there should be no justice; no consequences for our actions. I do believe he's saying that as Christians we need to be the ones who seek to temper justice with mercy - the ones who oppose those who dance with joy over the killing of bin Laden, and 10 years earlier those who danced with joy over the attacks on the trade centre. I believe he's saying we need to be the ones who oppose the at best simplistic and at worst offensive notion that God is "on our side." God doesn't choose sides. I believe Christians need to actively oppose the death penalty - a relevant topic right now in the light of recent events in the United States. I believe that Christians should point out the absurdity of the wars we're being dragged into by NATO - an organization that may have served a valid purpose during the Cold War but whose existence now is an anomaly. NATO - supposedly a defensive alliance - now seeks out wars (ie, Libya) in order to justify its own existence. All these are things that I've personally and publicly said. I know a lot of clergy have.

I hear graeme's concern. Certainly such things should be addressed by the church. I have to say, though, that in all honesty I don't think congregations need a steady diet of it from the pulpit. I think of pastoral situations I've been involved with and the people I've known over the almost 20 years I've been preaching. I don't think a sermon on Canada's involvement in Libya is what the woman who's just been beaten up by her husband the night before needs or wants to hear. Or the couple who've just had a stillborn child. Or the family whose daughter has just shot herself in the head. Or the man whose young child has just been raped and murdered.  Or the wife who wakes up in the morning and discovers her apparently healthy husband's dead body on the floor. Or the husband who's just been told his suddenly and seriously ill wife is going to die and is faced with the prospect of being single father to a young daughter. They're living in the here and now. They're trying to get through today. They need to try to make sense of life. They need to be somehow told that there's still a God and that God still loves them and that God weeps with them over their tragedies. The addicts need to be offered release; the person who's never been able to forgive themself for something they did years ago and is being eaten away by it needs to be told that God forgives them. The terminally ill need to be offered some peace; the grieving need to be offered some hope. That's where the church needs to bring "faith into touch with our earthly life"  and those are not people "who occupy the idiot section of the New Jerusalem." Those are real people for whom Canada's role in Libya is frankly beyond their horizon at the moment.

Canada and Libya? Yeah. It's a stupid war to be involved in. And yeah - the Americans over the years have been as brutal and bloody as anybody and more than many in trying to get their way in the world. And Canada both historically and in the present doesn't have totally clean hands either. And those are important things to point out. Whether it's what the average person in the pew actually needs to hear on a Sunday morning I'm not sure. I do think the church should have interest groups, study groups, etc. that deal with those issues. They are important issues that touch directly on faith. But it's my general feeling that Sunday morning worship in the church is for the purpose of celebrating God and proclaiming God's grace to all and reconciling with one another, of offering hope to those who are at their wit's end because of the chaos in their own lives and encouraging the development of qualities such as compassion and mercy and understanding and love to offer to those who need it most - which might well include terrorists and evildoers of all stripes.

If I'm wrong about that, so be it. I'm wrong. But it's what I believe.

I actually prefer non-political sermons myself.  Even though I attend the Orthodox church, I do not want to hear a lecture about either Is/Pal or Nagorny Karabakh on Sunday morning.

UCC has provided this space for discussing such issues.   And one can always talk to people outside of Sunday morning.

The Orthodox church, by the way, is very careful to stay out of politics.   This must result from centuries spent in hazardous locations, with capricious kings, emperors and tsars.  

But they still get the Christian message across IMHO.  I was angry at work with a co-worker.   At church, I heard the priest say "Those who love us and those who hate us, may the Lord God remember them in his kingdom."

I had been refusing to put the co-worker's name on the prayer list.   I decided it was time to take the step.  That was a few months ago and the anger has dissipated and we  get on fine now.  

Sometimes, all you can do is work on your personal flaws, not try to save the world.

Geo Fee

You and Kevin O'Leary have a similar disinterest in politics.  It doesn't do for all of us to think as such, thank goodness, or our governments would always be acting as sociopaths without penalty.

Surely not all social progress is the result of church actions?   I mean, direct actions taken by the church itself, not by groups of people inspired by the church.

Eastern Orthodox

Hmm we are coming from different suppositions.  In my study, social progress is seldom the result of church but having said that, should the church ignore the necessity of politics and social justice then we have an evil of alienating all the people involved in that struggle, as well as alienating the people in the church who can identify with that struggle to the point of it affecting the way they will live their lives from that time forward.

Very nicely said Rev. Steven. I hear Graeme's concerns too.  Many times, I have watched the news, worried sick about the state of the world, and wondered why certain issues are not being brought up in church...but at the same time, people are looking for sanctuary from their worries, and a place where they feel loved and connected with community. You're right though, it is a good idea to hold discussion groups and chances for people to learn and discuss issues and get involved  in doing good work in the local community and global community when/where possible. Perhaps Sundays should just be a place to be in community with the church family.

Every now and then, our minister does discuss a pressing issue...but he doesn't hammer at it. He might bring it up as cause for reflection.

However, we do have an "interfaith" series of lectures and seminars coming up that will be very interesting. Maybe that's really where the church can focus it's peace efforts most effectively rather than making political statements?

I call to mind the image of Jean Chretien at the funeral of Jack Layton. What number of millions passed from public to private hands by his effective commitments? What a company of friends and fellows in on the take?

Mr. Harper knows how decent folk frown on the presence of poverty in the neighbourhood. So he promises clean streets. No more mentally disturbed, mentally delinquent, or mentally deviant to trouble our suburban sleep. Having opportunity to bring remedy he presses for punishment. In the name of his God!

While we sigh contented sighs in our smug Christian homes the estranged children of the land languish in the streets till they are incarcerated for the good of us all.

Who will deliver them into the common good we profess in the name of the Holy?

Shall I tell a story of Church and State conspired against the broken poor to appease a neighbourhood investment club in a certain Canadian neighbourhood? All justified by politics practiced in the name of religion. All best forgotten in the opinion of more than a few.

Angry?

Furious!

We took in crack addicted sex workers seeking exactly this.

Ought, we as those with a stake in their health and vitality, have left them in their presenting estate? Rather, we provided support and encouragement by which they might discover and choose some alternative to their death seeking habits.

Let me assure you that an upper middle class community also suffers the consequences of patterns hardened in the habits of conspicuouos consumption.

Their misery is on the opposite end of the material scale.

Their hearts languish for lack of meaning and purpose in the circumstances of their material comfort and pleasure. And..... try as they will (as the marketers of diverse pharmaceuticals know well)  they cannot get past the subtle persistent insistence of shame and guilt rising up as the appeal of conscience and reason.

So they go for absolution offered with no hint of the Christian cross. No hint of the invitation to renounce the lust of the eye, the lust of the flesh and the boastful pride of life by which the planet and its peoples are destroyed.

Of what use is light hidden in a closet?

I think in general you may be right, but in the last few years a split has developed in the world of people who consider themselves decent and liberal (in the classic sense of the word liberal).

This has resulted in intense controversy over such things as Israel/Palestine.  On this forum, it is apparently the opinion of all who come here that there is only one side, one angle.   If you don't agree, why, you might as well start advocating we bring back slavery!

So, by taking this viewpoint, you are alienating a lot of people.   Now I suppose you may think we are all wild right-wing lunatics, but there a quite a few of us and we don't agree.

At one time, social issues were glaringly obvious.  As progress has been made to correct many social ills, it becomes less and less clear what the status is of certain things.  

To take one example: homeless people who are (probably) mentally ill.   The reason these people are homeless is not just because of wild right-wingers.  There is also a left-wing group who are adamantly against putting anyone in a hospital against their consent.  How do you do reconcile these viewpoints?  (IMHO, I would prefer to try and get them off the street, but I can at least see where the other side is coming from).

I agree with you. I'm not saying it should be hidden in a closet...perhaps offering alternatives to Sunday worship services where people can and do get involved and educated would be a better alternative. I don't know. I would just fear that those going to church seeking comfort would feel alientated at the cost of the need to afflict the comfortable (in the congregation I go to, there are members spanning both ends of the socio-economic spectrum). When I started going to church, I was going through emotional and mental health problems and job loss--I was down in the dumps and afraid. It was nice, healing, to be in a place where people were kind, welcoming and supportive, and were having a bit of fun. At that time, had I gone in and been challenged too much, I might have fallen apart further and been scared off. Now that I've been there awhile, I'm inspired, and I'm looking for other ways to get involved in the broader community....my efforts don't all have to take place at or within the church community or with church organized initiatives, but it's a good home-base.

After reading your comments more closely, I think you and I are in agreement GeoFee. I'm in my late 30's. I have experienced both (relative) poverty--subsistence level lifesyle-- and only in the last few of years of my adult life, more of a 'middle class' lifestyle. I grew up in a middle class home(s), but through most of my adult life on my own, I could identify more closely with those living in poverty, as I myself was living in poverty. I managed to escape the snare of drug and/or alcohol addiction, but I know several people who have struggled with it...and I do know guilt after having been given the very fortunate opportunity to go back to school-- and I found work where I was all of a sudden able to earn more money than I really needed--in a field where I was supposed to be helping people, but often felt that I had become part of a system that was doing more harm than good--yet I am still unemployed, still unsure of what to do next, where I can be of best service--I have some idea, and I know I don't want to go back to where I was because I would feel I am "selling out"...so, I think I  know what you're saying.

Amen Kimmio, and to you GEO ...

When you talk about slavery returning ... has it really left? When greed by a few overly industrious in their battle to control what wasn't theirs to begin with ... how much of the energy crisis can be attributed to losses in building up war machines?

It is something to think about with care ... although extremists will say you cannot walk the line ... balanced in a state that involved divided mind. The battle of two alien realms goes on and on ... amuses the higher powers to see creation destroy itself while the underlying power creates in the rubble ... after the powers have deserted a ravished land. Look up the references to ravish and ravished in your concordance ... does it echo (Ego) of rape of the gift the earth as fallout?

In the heavenly state we'll go back at it again as powers of black and white ... until one reads the context of Psalm 139:12 ... from the dais of the parietal veil ... a very thin space where you can put both sides together in combining form ... grey manna ... bread fruit of the soul. It is sort of ethereal except both sides are now again yah ... pariah ... interesting word like outside consideration by the extremes! It is like God and the devil hating psyche that thin film that encompasses everything ... bêtè noire  .. the Shadow of a clouded thought? Moses travelled with both until reaching a low point where heh could stow the embitterd crowd and a few stayed in neutral ground. Where are the hidden ones ... is the quest .... God how the extemes hate to wonder as David did ... a hard case of wondering psyche ... a beautiful mind that can look at both perspectives and gain balance? Sort of makes one image a suite thing in the rack of a lyon ... hard place where the light shines through into a bonnei closet (Samson's Enigma?) structure of the story ... the mind ... out there in an alien dimension ... mortals don't wish to know ... as divined internals movements ... sounds like a whine to me ... a distant whisper breath of wisdom (that's de athe'n Hebrew tongue, dead language .. silent as the naked soul in the garden ... bean in two halves? Cede of psyche ... but don't tell ... it's hidden ... until the dais ...

From a file called Whine Neigh of the Hebrew:

Whine Neigh of the Hebrew …

A very quiet whine as Shadow enters Dais/Daze, or days …

While Psalm 139:12 says dark and light are ſamë (integral J’aime) …

Which is like Sam in the temple with Eli …

An old word for light …

Pyres of the devil?

Is such divided Ness, fired as weapon against human brutality …

Divided intellect to eKo, or Ego what man doesn’t desire …

To look at self from outside the realm of physical!

Can you just imagine, something to get your head around?

It would take considerable wandering!

Burry’d, fruit of the sol’ intellect …

Mountain to contend with as Elvis would cry …

Very large identity that is dark and beyond us; myth?

Webster defined that outside the bode an willies (scary, sacred) …

As intellect, something hidden from the emotions of human mob …

The collective mentality, as Zain?

I must be apologetic here as I see the darkness in light of things …

Revealed to me in wondering, pilgrimage, curiosity of God …

In IĐ’s entirety, physical impossibility unless you can get outside the box …

Where they put emotions in the beginning (OBI?) …

That’s heaven and out there in reciprocal form is a lot of dust, dirt and mire …

Toby cultivated as bottom land ferme; closed to the light?

Open your imagination phoqahs and look into your desires and see …

What wrought in thoughts of possession you have …

That should be un-learned in the wash …

The media of the mind and the fate’l aid Ai …

Who put the clouds up there …

To fog your desires and make you wonder …

Odd de Zea/ gyþ Zee wanderer, Gael denied by man, brae’n storm?

It is strange word pho in ET’IC as shaped in Eire …

And projected as whine, or perhaps just writ inroad (rode=red) …

Internal convolution of vacant space …

De rapture of learning as you cross Dagon …

The threshold of whole new world …

A read dragon to some …

Positive use of the imagination to others …

Hoo mean to suit the whole thing …

With anon-institutional emotion, thought flying free outside the box …

Known archaic-allah as cubit …

That dark personae who Jacob wrestled with …

On the other side of floe …

That’s Maas or the dirt on the situation of Jack …

Without his la’dai of light …

There’s a Shadow of doubt that he can walk the line in balance!

The Đan’sa Muses the powers above the flow of bloody laughter:

Perhaps now they will learn as if by butte …

Or beauty of what hits the bull autonomously!

An awkward cow that knows only one thing?

Within that structure of bones of the story …

It looks like a skeleton in the closet!

What did jay Sous say about going in the closet?

Perhaps it was something about putting it all together …

So the light could shine through, dark Ness …

Clarifying the Shadow as clear grail of mind, word that you can work for all-that-is!

By ignoring the extremes on either side and developing a plan that works for all parties.

We have become a society of polarization, where one is constantly admonished that 'you are either for or against'. 

This is a nonfunctioning mode of operation and its impact has become glaringly obvious to any one who is willing to relinquish their allegiance to one side or the other.

What do the people in the middle of this conundrum do - mostly turn away, shut their doors and hope that the two warring sides will kill each other and leave those, silent behind the door, alone.

There is a third option.  The people in the middle can say, Stop.  The people in the middle, of whom I will wager are greater in number than the two polar opposites, can speak out and demand workable solutions.  They, we, can diminish the power of the few and return the command to the many.

Is there a role for the Church in this third option - yes.  The places of worship - and I mean all places of worship not just the Christian ones - can regularly remind their congregations that all faiths, their faith, seek reconciliation, cooperation and peace as the primary goal of their Creator.

LB

-------------------------

Past the seeker as he prayed came the crippled and the beggar and the beaten. And seeing them...he cried, "Great God, how is it that a loving creator can see such things and yet do nothing about them?"...God said, "I did do something. I made you."

      Sufi Teaching, Books On Sufiism

Yes! "Of the people, by the people and for the people":

'Tis  an interesting concept, no?

'one nation, for   profit, privilege and pride'

Still, I wouldn't live anywhere else, or at a different time.

Media with it's bad thing focus...around the world, does made me sad for the world.

But when was there world peace? Planet-wide abundance?

Two achievable / impossible goals.....

I'm liked by my neighbours - that's as far as I get :-)

Cordially,  

These days we are appalled when we speak of slavery. We have evolved beyond the concept in our modern society as it was portrayed to us by the struggle of those that were brought here from Africa. When we hear of it occurring within other nations we are sickened.

Then there is Saudi Arabia, and we read how, just now, in the year 2011 that the women will be allowed to be part of the government but still not be allowed to drive a car in their own country. Our gut reacts.

Somalia. We listen to the distant cries of hunger that plagues the nation. It moves us and we want to help. And the ongoing problems created from the lack of a peaceful solution in the middle east seems senseless to those of us that have enjoyed a relative peace within our own borders.

Atrocities around the world and in our neighbourhoods offend us. We are moved to want to help. We have evolved from the shoulders of giants that refused to sanitize the churches role in the world. Our "spiritual maturity" did not just happen, it was cultivated and nurtured.

Of course we want to seek comfort within our churches to care for the constant problems of losing a family member, facing cancer, divorce, homelessness, etc..... .These things happen whether you're in a war zone or not. But I do think that the church does have a duty not to let us get us get too comfortable in our pews by only addressing those issues that we are personally familiar with. We need to have persistent reminders that will cause us to do more than just shake our heads in agreement and reach in our pockets to give financial aid.

For those of us that have enjoyed a relative peace we now see slavery, war, famine as ridiculous concepts for achieving our goals within our society. We may be still guilty of much, but we have grown and when we look out at other nations that are in constant turmoil, our overall sense is that it is ridiculous in this day and age to be behaving in such a manner. Even when honouring the histories involved it really does seem petty and immature that any nation still panders to a historical and prejudicial reasoning rather than recreate a meaningful existence for all people.

We shouldn't have to venture into the political arena to take sides with anyone, but rather we should be walking with that spiritual maturity that sees beyond the concept of supporting "the most right". Love is not political, it reveals a disfunction in ourselves and nations and creates change. It becomes an entity unto itself when employed and a concept that is beyond any countries idea of what freedom should look like.

We do still need those that shout from the pulpit to spur us on to love one another until the whole world is shown to be ridiculous.

The problem of the homeless is particularly noticeable where I live (Victoria, BC) because of the (relatively) warm climate.   As Mely has said to me, we would not let mentally disabled people sleep in parks, but if it something like schizophrenia, then society (or part of it) seems to think this is OK.    The churches do help, The Salvation Army in particular is good with the homeless but I find the whole thing very disturbing--to find people sleeping on the grounds of building I work in.   There has to be a better way!

I"m not sure we should attribute the disorder and suffering in places like Congo and Haiti and Libya and Somalia. If a Tommy Douglas were to arise in such a place, we would either assassinate him or bomb the whole country.

Let's be clear. I am NOT suggesting

1. that any sermon should preach a political line.

2. that this should occur in every service.

3. that it must occur within the service at all.

4. that the church as a whole should adopt a political line.

5. that the church should abandon it's other helping of people in dealing with their own daily lives. Incidentally, medicare is a political issue that came from spiritual roots and, as a child in world without medicare, I know what it meant in helping ordinary people cope with ordinary daily life.

6. When we drop thousands of tons of bombs on Libya, I think it not unreasonable to provide for discussion of this from a faith perspective.

I am suggesting that the church has a necessary role in helping people to think about what their faith means in practical terms, from the home to the city to the country to the world.

It can sometimes do this in a service, perhaps with a weekly meeting I organized such a church group in Montreal. Warren Allmand (former solicitor-general) spoke to us on terrible misuse of foreign aid. Another discussion group dealt with legal gambling, another with local candidates in a general election. (For the latter, the Liberal candidate said he was too busy. So I went public on it. He suddenly found the time.)

It's not a matter of feeding people a line. It's a matter of reminding them that our faith has a role in our daily lives - as reflected in our behaviour to our families and to the world. That way, we might not get a US presidential candidate who boasts to cheering fundamentalists that he executed twice as many criminals as the next two states together.(Bush, by the way, set an earlier record for executions, also in Texas. Some churches much be pretty lax about standards for membership.)

What about the intrusions of private business in the public schools? Does that have implications for Christian values?

I'm not looking for an official line. I'm looking for awareness and thought and faith.

Incidentally, the widely shown news video of Palestinians dancing at the news of 9/11 was later admitted to be a fraud. It was actually old footage of a wedding party. Very few of the news media made any correction. I believe the CBC was one that did.

Graeme. this is off topic but I want to get your attention.  

I send you a wondermail once and you never answered.   So I figure you will read this thread:

I spent an hour last night entering instructions on copying links and text to WC posts.  It is under the thread about Haiti.    I really tried to make it clear, so I hope you will at least give it a whirl.

If it does not work, send me a Wondermail.   Or just add comments to the Haiti thread.   Tell me exactly what is not working.

(I do a lot of this at work, I am a computer programmer, I am always asking users,...."now tell me exactly what you were doing when the problem occurred...."

    Do not give up!  

"Sometimes, all you can do is work on your personal flaws, not try to save the world."

A great line! Yelping about saving the world is, I think, sometimes, a means to avoid self analysis.... 

 Amen.   I have enough trouble with my own faults!

Hi Kimmio,

Thank for the glimpses into your lived experience and your reflections on that experience. We have a fair bit of common ground. What you describe would fit my own experience during my early years and into my thirties. At sixty I can appreciate the value of living at the edges of solvency, where faith is at times the only security available.

George

Here is a sample of preaching which never gets explicit about politics. Still it has a strong political implication.

That's a very powerful sermon, GeoFee. Thanks for sharing.

Is it possible for a real man to see his own flaws unless he can step outside and look back at himself?

God how we hate history ... so the real men corrupt it ... and stories erupt to counter the overburden of fecund crap. That mountain is fertile to learn from ... hard to get over ... perhaps some understanding the pile is helpful! Who was it spoke of the mountain ... Moses, Elvis ... that funny Greek myth pushing the rock uphill? Perhaps it is all in the imaginary part of psyche ... not actually real to the bulk of mankind. Then did creation give mankind the power of delusion? Change is as good as a rest!

Omega odd ... winds going by that I couldn't see ... Aries, or Eires ... þêðrè? But who would know that ancient word and its fugal understanding of infinite bifurcation ... fugal le gassy?

Can Mensa (genius, mind) get their head around that? Some split consideration required ... just outa thyself ... it's a given like A'Don's, hole in alien space (dimension, thin space, ethereal) ... some wondering required beyond the institution ... absolute space of what you know ... what you don't know can be fatal to the anima ...

We fail to see the child outside of social order ... for we won't consider our future as based on the child within ... that internal energy to absorb all that was provided as intelligence: the good, bad and ugly! Wouldn't go there would we? Dirty place .. Godliness is close to cleanliness ... the devil may have it ... as a thinking beast ... sort of underlying soul! Mortals look over it as suggested by James Hilton ... the lost fringe .. horizon of sorts? Then we have Jah sous ... the other cheek ... bottom side up in echo ... reciprocation or the hated Ego? We retain until we bust ... expandable skins to a limit ... like King Henry VIII ... they say he weeped all over as a dis eased person tense over where his wealth would go to ...

We are a people that find it difficult to let go of reality, no free portion to the intelligence ... sort of institutional? (Revelations 2:17) Metaphor of a blank dimension to craft a rant/whine/ giggle for the sublime?

Geofee ... even at 6:00 am I found your sermon to be engaging and motivating on several levels.  It is always nice, too, to find that at least one other person is experiencing the same concerns and feelings about the way things are unfolding these days.  I also see how a more pointed approach (naming names and taking no prisoners) might have alienated and shut the ears of a good portion of a congregation (whether one was dealing with this subject or any other).  

Hearing your sermon, Geofee, in the context of this discussion demonstrates to me that there is, indeed, a limited capacity to inform the congregation about "current events" from the pulpit and that this task must be accomplished in other ways.  Given that the news media have, out of chauvinism and for various economic and political reasons, abdicated this responsibility that society has heretofore counted upon them to fulfil, it is incumbent upon churches to assist their  congregations to achieve awareness about the larger world around them.  In this way churches can assure that the spiritual message they deliver takes on the greatest and widest possible meaning (the highest and best meaning?) and import in the minds of the congregants. 

I would suggest that graeme has listed in his post above some of the important "other ways" that a church could use in helping to educate its congregation in "worldly matters".  Wondercafe, itself, is also one one of those "other ways" in that , through the participation of such people as graeme and Geofee and LB  and ... well ... all of us here, we are educated.

I think that is one of the reasons I keep coming back ... because of the things I learn.  Wondercafe is like a box of chocolates. You just never know what you're going to find.

Media abdicating responsibility?

One has to wonder who owns the media ... and who follows the media blindly?

Here in NB there's no much question on the bias of the fabrication ...

The sermon occupies about twenty minutes of my week. It is a small piece of a comprehensive work in the congregation, the neighbourhood, the city and the world.

I consider a sermon to be relevant and effective only where the preacher's life illustrates that which is presented for consideration in the preaching moment.

The sermon above is embedded in a day by day practice of faithful public witness. This includes where and how I live my life. It includes the partnerships I form with social service agencies, political activists, letters to and interviews with the diverse media, theatrical performance of theologically informed prophetic symbols and utterances, chance encounters in the streets and coffee shops, participation in online forums & etc.

I earn a reputation in every place I practice ministry. That reputation is what speaks louder than my sermons. In Fredericton I was known as well at the Legislature as in the back alleys of the streets, where I distributed condoms and clean needles for the community health clinic. Put in a nutshell... I was known as the clown who pressed for the full inclusion of the broken poor at every available opportunity.

Preaching must be exemplified in every dimension of social engagement. If we preach the gospel of Jesus Christ and live the philosophy of Thomas Hobbes we are well considered duplicitous professors of words lacking substance. Regrettably, there are more than a few who fit such shoes; as graeme and others notice consistently and forcefully.

It isn't a case of good vs evil.  It is a case of Israel being Gods chosen people, and Satan hating them because of that.  Scripture writes that those who bless Israel will be blessed.  It doesn't say that those who bless other nations will be cursed.  We need to love everyone, but NOT neglect Israel. 

To that end, I think that there is not a way to make every sermon UN-political.   

GeoFee - your post as well as the sermon is powerful. I must make it to Fredericton some day. Watch for me in an alley.

LOL, Graeme. I do like it when your sense of humour comes out!

and I agree, as I've said above, GeoFee's sermon is powerful. I've been thinking about it since I watched it.

I've taken some tiem to respond, GeoFee. Thanks for your understanding. There is a certain comfort in having nothing (materially) to lose. Albiet there were hard times, they were also some of my best times...when I wasn't so "self-reliant"(or expected to be self-centred) and the people in my life really mattered the most...and every little gift was a huge one. I had "street cred" among some of the homeless in my area who  kind of took me under their wing when they saw me and we would chat,  and they vowed to look out for me. I was never homeless, but I was always weeks away I was not caught upi n the busy hustle and bustle of being a slave to the clock so much--the whole "time is money" agenda.  Now, things are not so financially dire (yet) as they were in those days, because I contributed into a small pension to a private plan in my last few years of work, and my partner (who I met since those days) earns a modest income,, but I am conflicted. I don't want to be that poor again, because that would limit my own ability to help if I am struggling to get by...and my partner would  struggle as well, which his health cannot afford either...I don't want to put him in that position. I also don't want to go back to the work I was doing because of serious value conflicts...so I just take it one day at a time as I comb through the job postings and apply to things that I feel okay about, and have faith that I will be able to discern the proper next steps.

Some people say to grab for everything and some people (probably the same) would suggest that the common folks give everything up ... which is contrary to that famous medium blip about looking after your self and looking after the neighbour in equilibrium (alis; empiric as balanced equation). But then, would this avoidance of balance cause fallout ...taking me back to the satyric separation in Genesis1:1 of the hard soul versus the heavenly soul? Some people just do not believe a heaven for poor common people should exist. Amongst real people; who likes mediums? Can't you see it coming what they would do to someone who ponders outside the rule ... like God ... even the light thereof would be buried encapsulated in a strange medium of soul ... AEthers, or athen's, near athe-ist? Perhaps not perfect ...

As the old axiom states ... one must believe in far-fetched things while in a hard spot ... mire mote in space? Thinking devils are hated too they can unravel the damÞ -ist enigmas in the callus colliseum ... Plateau's stand on the mind as it is rolled out unknown to emotional people in denial. It is a grand place for dunking the fires of passion ... cool eh ... like a deep pool of shamayim, that's heaven in Hebrew .. like speanding a night under the bridge down in GEO Ghia ... with shadowy ladies ... those that think also? Omega'd witches ... Maria Le Clare: is dat çho! Sho'nuff is that's soul mon ... bottom end up ... like night Urself and all the related fallout on the essence of psyche ... mire dirty ghost of what you believed ID Toby! Yah gutta imagine in the word ... trust with all your heart in the abstract ... paraphrase from Proverbs 3: 5 ... but most couldn't take that beyond the shallow physical side as depth of blurb ...

Wow, I got most of that too and I didn't even try! What's going on?  ;)

Waterbuoy has lapsed into rationality and clear writing.    

What are you smoking, Waterbuoy?

I am now in Kamloops. If you come by, do let me know and we can meet for a nibble, nosh and the knock about of ideas and purposes.

Deleted double post - probably time to change mouse battery.

Thank you again for letting us see some of who you are. Lots of resonance again.

Your posts are engaging and you seem to have a peace making bias that is much needed in this place and appreciated from my perspective.

In seminary they pressed us to identify our spiritual practice. Since then I have been guided by a process  I call 'leaning into the way that opens'. This is a gentle pressing forward as opportunities present themselves and trusting that the way which opens is the way for me to go.

The early years involved resisting the tendency to second guessing. At sixty, it seems that the spirit is well able to provide just what I need when I need it. Perhaps I will one day realize mature trust and by this bring benefits into all my relations.

Deleted double post - and I am off to buy a new battery.

I don't know if there's a local bus to Kamloops.

EO - I am shocked. Shocked.