Anybody got any idea where graeme is going with this?  Is he saying that Desmond Tutu should be loading artillery?

it's that in religion & faith rather than discussing the core of christianity...or even better, the doing of the core of christainity...that we talk about words, and interpretation or other such items.

i think

No. He's suggesting that we focus too much on discussing Christianity and not enough on living it.  That we value keeping the people in the pews content over standing up and being counted on the issues of the day. I think he's suggesting further, by way of example, that Tutu dared to live it and would likely be roundly criticized for his theology and for driving people away with his controversial social stances rather than lauded for standing up if he was a United Church minister hanging out here. Something like that, anyhow. I'm sure graeme will be back to say more.

Mendalla

Hi Chansen,

My read on Graeme's post is that it is a reiteration of his point that most Christians are not Christian enough because of reason X.

Reason X can be variable.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Pinga and Mendalla are quite right.

Revjohn is being cutely evasive. I suspect they must learn that at theological college.

I also suspect we will find few clergy (and perhaps few Christians) joining this thread.

I see it as an unconversation, framed as many frame it, there is no room for discussion.

"You are not a Christian unless you practice it like this...." ( "like I do" or "they do" or "they did").

Which, usually translates to , no matter who says it (believer/atheist. liberal/conservative, orthodox/emergent.......)  "I am better than you" or "I know more than you" or "I am a real___"

Graeme mentions Desmond Tutu on this thread and Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. on another.

We could talk about how "social justice" was coined by a Jesuit (Taparelli). We could add Oscar Romero. We could talk about the ton of clergy who were active and whose names appear on the Egale petition supporting same-sex marriage. We could talk about Tommy Douglas or J.S Woodsworth. We could talk about suffrage or prison reform and abolitionism(Wesley and the Methodists terrain) We could talk about welfare reform, settlement houses and Jane Addams(the first women to win a Noble Peace Prize).... the living wage and Monsignor Ryan. We could talk about Environmental Justice and Shocco Township in Warren County NC and how they were selected to get BCP contaminated soil in that poor, non white area and how the United Church of Christ was very vocal about environmental racism, disproportionate burden of toxic waste on minority communities.

We could mention that CORE (Congress of Racial Equality) organized all clergy Freedom Rides(since it is the 50th anniversary and people are more aware of what Freedom Riders were).One stopped in Detroit for their Annual Convention  and it had 15 Episcopal  clergy on board. It was a Freedom Ride in 1961 from New Orleans to Jackson (the Prayer Pilgrimage)

We could add the Interfaith Freedom Ride DC to Tallahassee in June with 14 ministers and 4 rabbis. That group of ministers at the "end" of their journey were to fly home to NY and when they went to eat in the terminal and were told that the diner was closed for cleaning and would open an hour after their flight and they stayed, missing their flight on principle. They sat in a terminal in Tallahassee knowing there was a crowd gathering outside including members of the Southern Georgia KKK. The airport was not open all night and they had to walk to a nearby church to sleep on pews there. When they returned the next day, they were arrested for unlawfully organizing. They $500 or 60 days, most refused to pay their fine.

I could once more add that as a former domestic violence worker, queer, gender "different".... Christian, that whether I talk on Wondercafe about it a lot or not anymore, my ministry does focus on such things.

My sermons are not about dogma and doctrine, InnaWhimsey called me an "iconoclast", remember? I am a rabble rouser. I am, by nature, an activist.

My sermons are about how we further God's Kingdom, how we love our neighbours, that everyone is our neighbour, how we spread love and compassion that is felt as such, how that cannot be accomplished with fists and guns and tanks, how we welcome and include and people feel that welcome and inclusion, how we change this world we live in for the better, how we do so ourselves getting better and not bitter, how we move mountains... I can sum up almost every sermon I have ever given with the words in the book of Amos, that I believe God expresses disdain for pious ritual unless “justice rolls down like waters and righteousness as a mighty stream.”.

I am also not alone. That is preached every week all over this world.

Trying to have conversations about Uganda's death penalty for homosexuals, global warming, rejoicing when bin Laden was killed... are tough ones to have online

I have learned that when the ick drowns out the good, if the ick is gaining momentum or gathering converts, it is best to let a thread go... or, if you know the ick will, to not start or have or even enter the conversation.

I just talked to myself here so that, though there is no conversation, I am not seen as silent.

Well said.

Straw effigies are always straw effigies.

Hi graeme,

Well it was that or hyperbole.  Did you have a choice?

Joining in what what way graeme?  Are we supposed to pile on and denounce threads in the religion and faith forum as trivial?  Is trivial an objective standard shared by all or a subjective standard set by you?

Clergy on all sides opposed and supported the military efforts of their native countries.  I'm sure the same is true about history professors.

Grace and peace to you.

John

There. I joined.

Otherwise, graeme, based on past experience on such threads, it's only going to turn into an insult session on your part no matter what any member of the clergy says. I have better things to do with my time.

It might be worth adding, though, that some of those useless discussions you see happening on Religion & Faith are discussion that, for my part at least, have helped break down barriers, remove stereotypes and given me a greater appreciation of a variety of viewpoints, in that way encouraging probably greater engagement with others in the things you hold so dear.

As a Jew, let me say yes there were those who supported/cooperated/did not stand up/tried to stay out of the way... the world over was also pretty antisemitic, but there were MANY (not graeme, the history professors "few") who criticized/stood up to the Nazis

For those who want a realistic glimpse in history

Look into why the Nazis persecuted the Jesuits.  

Look into Catholic Action.

Look into Pastors Emergency League and Martin Niemuller.

Look into the Confessing Church.

Look into Dietrich Bonhoeffer.

Look into the beatified Georg Haefner.

Look into the Advent sermons of Cardinal Michael von Faulhaber that Germany banned.

Look up Bishop Clemens August Count von Galen, "the lion of Munster".

Look up the trials of Franciscans in Koblenz.

Look into Franz Jagerstatter.

Look into Delp, Gruber, Lichtenberg....Maximilian Kolbe,Titus Bransdma

Look into Sachsenhausen.  

Look into how many priests, bishops, deacons, clergy died at Dachau and Buchenwald. 

Look at how many Polish clergy were killed.

Look at Warsaw diocese alone.

Don't trust the church that they are trying to look good? Then....

Look into Nazi allegations of church run underground railroads to save the disabled a\nd the mentally handicapped children and Jews.

Look into Nazi allegations of fake baptismal certificates issued by clergy.

Look into what clergy did in the Netherlands, Italy, France sheltering and hiding Jews.

Clergy, more than graeme's "few" criticized Hitler. In many cases, they stood up and paid with their very lives.

Their very memory is dishonoured by anyone saying "few"clergy criticized Hitler.

Graeme, thank you though for making my mind whirl with names and remember those I do not have names for and only tidbits of who they were by what they did.

My grandparents wanted me to know and always remember that it was NOT the whole world, not ALL Christians, not ALL Germans... and that God and good people existed in the world in spite of the Shoah. They are the Righteous Among the Nations. I remember them now, because of this thread...

Father Jesih who hid Jews in his own house, Adolf Frudenberg, a monk named Benoit, Henry Smith Leiper (he visited Germany in '32 worried about antisemitism and called for a ban of the '36 Olympics based on Nuremberg laws and worked to spread the word what was happening inside Germany), Sister Skobtzova in Paris, Sister Anna Bortowska (even smuggling weapons into the ghetto)... Father Nicacci working with Bishop Nicolini, a bishop in Greece, Bishop Janssens.... countless more...

To remind me that not ALL Jewish children were kept and some were returned I was taught about priests Andre and Reynders in Belgium...

Yes, I should remember and honour the Righteous Among the Nations, and more than a few were clergy.

The Monday demonstrations which eventually led to The Wall being opened, started in protestant East Berlin churches.

I never claimed history professors had any virtues. My experience of universities is that professors in general are a pretty passive lot, more interested in t heir own careers than in any moral issues.

The fact remains that churches commonly avoid contentious issues. I don't askl them to take sides. I ask them, in their preaching and church activities to recognize the issues are there, and to encourage congregations to consider them in the light of Christian teachings.

Is that an un Christian thing to suggest?

" that fact is"  really Graeme? 

Maybe in the 60's some UCC's preached a sort of Readers Digest " do a good thing" today sermon but i sure don't hear it now.

Perhaps if your minister doesn't inspire you to make changes you need to change to someone who does

Since talking about abolitionism, welfare reform, prison reform... didn't work, I am going to think about the last 50 years and how avoiding the church is of contentious issues....

Preaching on integration, public housing, the civil rights movement, racial equality,  nuclear disarmament, war in Vietnam, peace marches and war protests, aiding draft dodgers, pressure to end discrimination against Vietnam draft dodgers (allow to qualify for immigration to Canada), standing with Cesar Chavez in grape boycott, women's rights, protesting Central American wars, advocating for health care/home care/nursing home care for the elderly, prison reform, inter-faith dialogue....  capital punishment, affordable housing, homelessness, AIDS, abortion, medical research.... offering sanctuary for Central Americans, racial justice, gender justice, economic justice, GLBT issues (including ordination and legalizing same-sex marriage), environmental issues from tar sands to bottled water... right relationships, Amnesty International in most churches, political forums, talking about religious intolerance, mental health issues, Anti-apartheid, talking about gun violence, water... energy, mineral extraction, sustainable communities.... dealing with the consequences of and talking about cultural assimilation and the sins of the past....

Did you mean speaking about global or political stuff? Hell, we get in trouble for politicising the gospel from our critics.

I have heard - in church- about conditions/policies/politics from A to Z...
Afghanistan, Argentina, Angola.... Bangladesh, Bosnia... Chile, Cuba, Czech Republic, Congo, China... Haiti....Israel, Iraq.... Latvia, Lithuania.... Palestine....Rwanda...South Africa.... Uganda.... Zimbabwe  (in other words, almost everywhere)

What does your church and your minister speak about, graeme?

Or were you simply talking about Wondercafe? If anyone is looking for Wondercafe to be the same as church, it is not.

Some conversations are hard to have face to face, easier to avoid until you cannot any longer or they force you to look... or you feel called to them.... things you do not really want to talk about come up from the pulpit and from the pews.

Online we can talk about whatever we want and many are here to make friends... You do not make friends taking stances on divisive issues, or you may lose the ones you have, we know that.

How?

Because the church has not avoided and it has taken stances on contentious and divisive issues...

BTW I do not simply speak of the UCCan churches, there are churches from Anglican to Anabaptist, Baptist to Brethren, Catholic to Congregationalist, Presbyterian to Pentocostal, Mennonite to Mormon... taking stances along with everyone fromJews  to Jehovah Witnesses, Hindus to Hutterites, Muslims to Metropolitan Community Churches, Buddhist to Baptist...

I stopped going to church. I had a superb minister whom I had and still have the greatest respect for.

But since moving into the city, I  have not seen a church with the slightest interest in the world around it. Most are Baptist, ranging from the simple minded to the viciously self-righteous. The United Church appears to be dormant.

Graeme,

If the churches around you, with acceptable theology to you, have no social justice vein running through them, then you have my sympathies. It should be a part of things, but so should fellowship and laughter, talking about inclusive language, unpacking scripture, pondering "what if's"... sharing...

We tend to think that a church for us should be handy, but I drive 25 kms to church when I live right next door to one. Why? I can be better in the farther church and could only become bitter in the one close by. I know of GLBTQ people who drive hours to church. Here on wondercafe, cjms has said she travels good distance as does panentheist to worship where they are fed.

I agree that there are churches that become more navel gazers than anything else. For some it can be because they like the white picket fence around them. There are also those who have "been there done that" and the pain they encountered makes them navel gaze. Perhaps they have not healed and any movement is scab picking. There are also those clinging to life or dead but on life support and all they can do is gaze at their own navel. They do not care about the world, they care about staying open for the next few years until they are in a nursing home or the local cemetery.

When GLBT friends lament that there are NO churches that are affirming/accepting/welcoming, I hear that they feel that way because they are not being fed and either cannot go to where there is food or they do not think they should have to go anywhere to be fed. I would advise they travel or even start a home church. If they could not or did not want to, they could also find service and sermons online- in text, MP3, or full video- that might. I do not think that if they are starving, they could come to Wondercafe and feel they were getting all they wanted. Sometimes, they just want to complain and be heard.

Have you given thought into looking online for churches that may require a drive or organizing a worship or online worship services?

The problem is largely New Brunswick itself.

The province is owned  by a few, extremely wealthy families who own both the Liberals and Conservatives - both federally and provincially. One of those families also owns all three English language dailies. And CTV and private radio know very well who they had better be nice to.

This results in a stunningly passive population. In deed, it is a afraid too discuss anything with political implications. It's a fear that s felt in all groups right down to the local home and school.

The newspapers go beyond bias. They are vicious, ignorant and play the role of flying monkeys for the wicked witch.

A few rich families effectively rule the province - and they rule largely by fear.

In all of this, the churches are silent. They do some charitable work, and that's nice an  uncontroversial.   But it's doesn't touch the real problem - that the people of this province are being bled dry to enrich a tiny elite. Those of the elite remind me of other such elites of other places  - utterly contemptuous of poor, and secure in the knowledge that God meant t hem to rule.  Al of them have church affiliations.

Lived there thirty years ago, for eight years. Not a lot has changed. Either accept what you cannot change, change what you can and have the wisdom to know the difference. And if all else fails, leave. And stop grieving about what you have lost. You won't find it that way, either

I came here to seek wisdom and I  got it. This is so damn true.  Thank you, Graeme.

Sometimes, I despair, and agree with DKS.