Some would say that time is an illusion. That could make hell an eternity if your mind was set on it.

no -no eternal hell

"Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so."

 - Douglas Adams

Interesting riff, Darrel Tessier :3

You write: "It must be because it guarantees human freedom and human ability to make a choice."

What do you mean by "the human ability to make a choice"?

I agree, but we need time to keep things from happening all at once.

“What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us”

– Ralph Waldo Emerson

Hi Panentheism: This was a short comment you gave. I really appreciate your opinions. Let me explain a bit further. In this case, I don't mean a literal Hell as a place of punishment. But Hell as freedom to choose a different perspective. Maybe even Hell as the "creative edge" or "potential for change" ie., breaking the mould which can create temporary chaos. Maybe another view would be... Hell as a "suspended state"  away from the Light which would be a merciful and compassionate act by God/theUniverse in some cases. Here, hell is as a place to learn. Extending this reasoning even further, maybe one could say Heaven and Hell are simply on a the same "spectrum" in terms of "states of being" extending farther and farther away from "The Core of Being/God." Or... (here's a weird idea I've come across) Hell is the same as Heaven but the perspective of the viewer/experiencer is different. That is, the "unprepared individual" cannot assimilate the Light and experiences it as painful or "fire." In other words, an individual in a state of being unable to assimilate the Light experiences the Light as Hell or painful and threatening. Whereas another individual more in tune with the Light experiences the Light pleasantly as Heaven. In this case, maybe, a state of less Light (ie., a Hell away from the Light)  would be an act of mercy until the individual could become prepared for a more loving union/relationship with the Light. The "eternal" part is the eternal mercy of God to wait on us to prepare ourselves to approach that Light for Union/Love with greater perception and without fear. Does that make any sense?

Yes... ultimately Time is an Illusion when we are in an ultimate state of Timelessness. Otherwise, it is more convenient as beings held within the illusion of Time to speak from that perspective. Otherwise there's no narrative - no conversation.

In response to Waterfall (thank you for your response) Hell is being caught in the Illusion of Time ie., that Hell (like being depressed, perhaps) goes on and on and there's no escape. Time creates Hell, in a way. And Hell (any state away from the Ultimate Creator) is also, ultimately, an Illusion. But we have our Being in this Illusion. And I should add... Illusion does not mean, in this context, a state that has no reality or existence but Illusion (like Maya) that is contingent on God who is eternally creating and holding up, so to speak, its existence. Its a beautiful Illusion - the dance of energy of the Creator. Perhaps one could say it IS Creation! God created in Time. So maybe, time and hell go together and Eternal Hell is only Eternal in potential. As long as we are free agents and we have some kind of choice we can choose to "not choose" God. It begs the question though, is not-choosing God a real choice made within true Freedom. Food for thought.

Many meanings of hell are given here - one the sense of ennui - or the literary one of existential emptiness - or depression - yes there are times in everyone's life where that sense of being not able to touch the light.  But my theology suggests that light is always there so there are no Godforsaken places - God is everywhere present, no place lacks the light.  Of course it is like music, sometimes we are tone deaf - which means we learn to feel the music in other ways through the body,   And there are times we go through the dark night of the soul - but none of this is eternal it is always situational.

"Is not choosing God a real choice made within true freedom?"

Time will tell.

If we consider life to be that which is comprised of all that is necessary for mortal existence -- time, space, matter, consumption, excretion, growth, reproduction, and ultimately death, then that which is beyond all that -- the spiritual -- would be free from all of these material constructs.

This should mean that aside from a possible transitional buffer (i.e. some concept of purgatory or some other layer between life and death), the ultimate reality of the "afterlife" would be God, and nothing more.

Any "hell" or demon infested place has only three possible choices:

- we're in hell right now

- if there is some sort of "purgatory", then that transitional state/space of uncertainty could be perceived as hell until moving beyond that state

- that being God is hell, and mortal existence is the only (temporary) escape from the existence of the Godhead -- eternal solitary confinement in the void

Hell is not being aware of the divinity within us.

Only in time can we ever reach a point of being lost.

There is no hell, eternal or otherwise.  But the threat of it has served as a fantastic tool of coercion for various religions over the years... 

of course the ones who say theres no hell really dont know, its just there opinion and opinions don't equal truth 

If Hell is Spiritual for someone, then it will be Spiritual for someone.  If it has no meaning for someone, then it will have no meaning for someone.  Simple :3

Hi Inannawhimsey: Human capacity to exercise choice, seems to me, to be the basis of our freedom and individuality. As opposed, say, to animals who act on instinct. Like  a person who is addicted to drugs we say he is not free, not choosing but in bondage to a substance. But people, to greater or lesser degree, exercise choice. And Love to be love has to be freely chosen or else it is forced and not real love. So to love God we must be free to choose God which means we must be free to not choose God. But I suspect when people reject God they are really rejecting some false image of God that is untenable. I think there are a lot of false conceptions of God out there and I don't blame anyone for rejecting those images. Lots of negative images of God have been perpetrated by Christianity too.

Agneiszka: It is a very popular view that Hell has been used for many years to manipulate people. I don't doubt there is some truth in this but I'm not sure how long this view has been around - my guess is since the 19th century. Is it really true? I have not come across any historical evidence it is true throughout history - East or West! It is definitely a modern perception - a reading back into history through a certain lens. Can anyone point to any historical sources? I could not be as sure as you say you are that there is no hell (or are no hells). I suspect, if there is one, it may be much like hellish states of mind among mentally ill people.

Good point waterfall. If God is all Good and the Highest, Ultimate Good why would anyone not choose that Good? I can only think that they have some other image of God that falls short of that. In other words, if anyone really knew and experienced that Good would they even have a choice? Maybe that's why God set up this system we now have where we are free to choose (and not choose); and God is anonymous and mostly invisible to us! I'm not sure. What do you think? If God appeared fully manifested to us the Love, Power, Glory, Beauty and Pleasure would be so overwhelming that we would forgo all choice and dive into God even if it meant the annihilation of our individual ego. That would be counter to God wanting to create self-determining beings with individuality and the freedom to choose???

How do you know you didn't act on instinct when you wrote that reply?

Darrel Tessier

I'm reading along and I like what you are writing. There have  been many debates on how much free will we really have. I mean we are conditioned from the day we are born but that's another topic. What about the mentally challenged people who are unable to make good choices?  I was raised in a Christian home and church. I had no free will regarding whether I liked it or not, this is sort of what I mean.

If, as some of us speculate, the wave function of the unfolding physical universe etches a hologram into space, and this cosmic hologram is beyond space and time, then the memory of our thoughts and actions is eternal.

The heaven or hell we create for ourselves and others in the here and now could be forever. It would be wise to live as if it were indeed so.

Hi Darrel Tessier-----your quote  ---But I tend to believe that ultimately Love will prevail in some way. I find comfort in the idea that an all-powerful God (as we understand that concept!) will win us over in the "end"

The Bible gives a different view ----The road to hell is wide ---the road to heaven is narrow ---If you reject Jesus which is not to become Born Again in spirit according to God's word your hell bound -----Heaven is a holy place and no sin can enter --you are a sinner according to the Bible until you accept Jesus in your life and be saved from sin . The worst mass murder in the world if he accepts Jesus and becomes Born Again will have his name written in the Book of Life and will go to heaven .

The Bible describes Hell and is portrayed as a real place so I would say it depends on how you view The Bible if you believe in hell or not . If the Love you speak of is Agape ---then you can only have that type of love through The Holy Spirit and would be a Born Again person .

John 3-3   Says it --- ³ Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.

unsafe, how is the fear mongering business these days?  It appears slow to me.  Maybe it'll pick up with the rest of the economy.

Fear mongering usually coincides with a poor economy. (which I believe we are now in)

Point taken.  I forgot that it was an inverse relationship.

Hi Darrel Tessier,

Which "hell" are we talking about?  Sheol, Hades, Gehenna or Tartaros?

As for "eternal" perhaps it is a bad translation of "aionios" and what is actually meant an indeterminate time.  It could be short, it could be long we control neither the beginning nor the end.

Grace and peace to you.

John

I read once that God exists in eternity and the only point that time meets eternity is in the present.

Yes. It's a thread on this topic on wondercafe.

I have lived in beautiful places and thought I was in hell.

I was. Hell is a state of mind.

I have been in chronic pain for 33 years. Now it's worse, and my right hand is almost useless. I don't think I'll let them operate on the left one again. My knees are prosthetic. I can handle pain. If Hell is pain, the spirit can overcome it.

In my experience, Heaven and Hell could well be the same place. The only difference is the individual soul.

*like*

*like*

*like*

or found.

LOL

that would be correct, God is ever Present in all time, this is best way I found to describe it 

God is 

Some famous person said:

Live as though you will die tomorrow, learn as though you will live forever.

Over 50 years ago during a spiritual retreat, the leader (a Jesuit priest) tried to envision eternity in this way: "Imagine the Himalayan mountain range, the most massive range in the world, standing in places almost six miles high. Once every 100 years a butterfly wafts over them and strikes a rock with its wing. When those butterflies have worn the Himalayas down till they are as flat as Saskatchewan, then the first fraction of a second of eternity will have passed." Eternity is totally beyond the capacity of the human mind to comprehend! Now imagine a condemned soul suffering the most agonizing possible pain continuously for all eternity. Got the image? I certainly have! And it is an image that I find totally incompatible with the notion of a loving and compassionate God. A God who could inflict such a punishment on even the most vile and evil human being would not really be worthy of our respect, our worship or our love. I do, however, believe very strongly in God's justice but even more strongly in God's love and compassion. I will leave it with confidence in God's care.

The heady days of Sunday School, who can forget?  When it was all so new and we thought our parents (and what they were teaching us) were all so bizarre. But it seemed to make them so happy that we were trying so hard with their stories.

I believe it is real and eternal, as is Heaven.