Men would rather watch Monday Night Football than go shopping. Eating too many Hardees Monster Thickburgers is linked to obesity. Texting while driving is a bad idea.
There are times when research findings are so obvious they are almost beyond questioning. So it is puzzling that growing evidence showing the importance of congregations cultivating the spiritual lives of the faithful is so routinely ignored.
Puzzling, and damaging to the health of many of the nation's churches, especially those most in need of revival.
Even though research shows spiritually alive churches are the most likely to grow, the percentage of U.S. congregations reporting high spiritual vitality declined from 43 percent in 2005 to 28 percent in 2010, according to the latest Faith Communities Today survey.
The drop was accompanied by a decline in the emphasis given to spiritual practices such as prayer and scripture reading across nearly all groups aside from white evangelicals and congregations with 1,000 or more attenders.
The most notable slide occurred among white mainline Protestant denominations, which have been aging and losing members faster than any other major religious group.
The reasons are varied: Declining financial health in the recession saps morale; aging memberships are less likely to embrace new forms of worship; some denominations have shifted emphasis away from personal piety toward social service programs.
It's not, however, because they don't know any better.
Spiritual and Religious
Study after study shows what may appear to outside observers to be simple common sense: A major reason people attend religious congregations is to deepen their faith lives and draw closer to God.
The U.S. Congregational Life Survey found the percentage of weekly worshippers who reported growing in faith through their congregation was twice as high as the percentage of more infrequent attenders who experienced similar spiritual growth.
The survey also indicated that "grassroots evangelists" -- those who feel at ease sharing their faith with others and invite people to worship -- were far more likely to strongly agree their spiritual needs are being met in the congregation and to practice devotional activities every day or most days.
"Worshippers in strong congregations also regularly spend time on their own praying, reading Scripture or using other materials to help them better understand and deepen their faith," survey researchers reported. "In other words, congregations where people spend time on their own cultivating their faith tend to have extraordinary worship as well. They're bookend strengths."
In a survey of megachurches, the No. 1 reason people gave for moving from a spectator to an active participant in their congregation was this: "I responded to an inward sense of call or spiritual prompting," researchers Scott Thumma of Hartford Seminary and Warren Bird of the Leadership Network reported in their new book, "The Other 80 Percent: Turning Your Church's Spectators Into Active Participants."
And the No. 1 reason people participated less in their congregation in the past two years? It was a tie between "had less time" and their faith had "gotten weaker," according to a separate survey of parish profile inventories offered by the Hartford Institute for Religion Research.
"Surveys of church people clearly indicate an important reality about people who are highly committed: The most involved are the most likely to say they are spiritually fulfilled, to acknowledge spiritual growth and to express satisfaction with their journey of faith. There is a strong, unmistakable relationship between the two," Thumma and Bird wrote.
Even the hardest to reach groups in the contemporary religious marketplace -- young adults -- appear open to approaches emphasizing spiritual growth.
Researchers Christian Smith and Patricia Snell of the University of Notre Dame examined results from the National Study of Youth and Religion in their book "Souls in Transition: The Religious and Spiritual Lives of Emerging Adults." They found factors that do predict high levels of commitment include frequent prayer and Scripture reading, personal religious experiences and highly religious parents.
Yet spiritual sustenance is often what people both young and old are not getting from their congregations.
The Gap Widens
In 2000, about three quarters of white mainline congregations from denominations such as the Episcopal Church and the United Church of Christ reported giving a great deal of emphasis to spiritual practices. By 2010, less than two-thirds, or 63 percent, emphasized practices like prayer and scripture reading, according to the Faith Communities Today survey,
By comparison, the percentage of white evangelical congregations giving a great deal of emphasis to spiritual practices rose slightly, from 90 percent to 91 percent.
It is difficult for many congregations today to remain spiritually vital amid decreasing financial health as a result of the recession and shrinking worship attendance in a time when religious observance is more of a choice than an obligation.
The loss of morale creates an environment where many say: "It doesn't feel as if God is in this place," said David Roozen, a lead researcher of the Faith Communities Today survey.
But part of the issue is also the choices many church leaders have made to place greater emphasis on social service programs or church committee work than on promoting spiritual growth.
There is evidence that going back to the 1960s and 1970s many mainline Protestant leaders "took faith for granted" while emphasizing other programs, Roozen said.
But activities such as prayer, worship and scripture reading are integral to the faith of people of all ages, researchers say.
"If they're going to go (to church), why they want to be there, I think, is for religion," Roozen said. "They want to connect with God and a community that connects with God."
The mystery is why that is so hard to understand.
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Comments
seeler
Posted on: 01/01/2012 14:06
What I don't understand is why people seem to think that mainline and progressive churches don't encourage spiritual growth in prayer, Bible reading, worship, etc. It would seem that when we also emphasis 'walking the walk', we must be neglecting personal spiritual growth. Yet in my congregation (UCC) we read the Bible during worship every Sunday and then relfect upon it. We also meet for regular Bible study weekly, and several times a year have an additional in depth study group. We pray, both as a congregation and privately - I often think of much of my life as a prayer as I seek to follow the Way that Jesus followed. My church has a prayer shawl ministry that involves prayer - and keeps a prayer list of those in special need. We also have a women's spirituality group. Our clergy are open to discussing spiritual needs on an individual level. We hold retreats. And we recommend, or sponsor, workshops and seminars for study, worship, and faith development. We do this in addition to out outreach ministry. In fact, it seems to me that our outreach ministry grows out of our spiritual growth.
EasternOrthodox
Posted on: 01/01/2012 23:17
I wonder if it depends on the congregation, Seeler. I attended a big Anglican church for several years that had beautiful music but the Bible readings, prayers, etc. seemed kind of mechanical. At least it came across that way.
My current congregation is totally different. But, there could be "mechanical" Orthodox congregations out there and spiritually lively Anglican ones, if I kept looking, I am sure.
sighsnootles
Posted on: 01/02/2012 19:14
personally, i feel closer to god when i break bread with the poor while volunteering at a seniors home, or working with foster kids.
i simply do not understand people whose spiritual lives involve nothing more than sitting around and reading the bible, and then parking themselves in a pew every sunday. when i attended catholic church, i just could never figure out that whole 'contempative' thing, where some nuns or priests just cloistered themselves into some room and prayed all the time.
i get that the path that jesus has set for me is not the same as everyone elses, though.
which, rishi, is why this article reads pretty one sided to me....
are you seriously suggesting that the ONLY people walking in the footsteps of jesus are the ones who regularly attend a christian church of some sort?? because i would have to disagree... i know many people who work do the work of jesus and are not regular attendees at any church.
and personally, i have to agree... i see jesus more in the foster kids i work with than listening to some priest yap every sunday.
sighsnootles
Posted on: 01/02/2012 19:18
so, to answer your question... i would have to disagree with this article.
churches should not be focused on praying... that is navel gazing to me. imho, the most powerful way to pray is to help the poor.
i debate this every few weeks with the jehovahs witnesses too.
rishi
Posted on: 01/03/2012 23:23
Here is an old (10th century) perspective on spirituality that would probably disagree with the article quoted above. It understands prayer and meditation as best when they are tied to their capacity to form real virtue in our concrete relationships with others. He acknowledges the validity of other forms of spirituality which are not so tied down to basic human concerns, but he feels that such forms are better left to saints and apostles, whose lives are already demonstrating compassion and justice. Otherwise we run the risk of falling into a kind of "quietism," where we imagine that our pure love for God makes it unnecessary for us to develop virtuous relationships with others.
Bernard of Clairvaux
EasternOrthodox
Posted on: 01/03/2012 21:46
Snootles: Some of us do not have the emotional strength to do everything you are doing (or we outside jobs--speaking of which, I have to go back to work tomorrow).
Or we at least need some spiritual reinforcements, however empty they may seem to others. Even if the result of my church-going is only that I get along somewhat better with family, friends and co-workers, that is quite an improvement!
Rishi - quote is very nice. I am going to make a copy now (what should that last word, "conies" be? It looks like a typo).
rishi
Posted on: 01/03/2012 23:28
Hi EasternOrthodox,
Conies are a European breed of rabbit. I guess they were the rabbits that Bernard would have been most familiar with in France: click on picture
EasternOrthodox
Posted on: 01/04/2012 01:36
Thanks! I was thinking, what on earth?
Kimmio
Posted on: 01/04/2012 03:30
Interesting critter. It definately looks more like a rodent, smaller ears, than the rabbits I am used to seeing, even though they are rodents too. Not sure I'd want to pet a conie.
But back to the topic. Thanks for posting that prayer, Rishi.
Arminius
Posted on: 01/04/2012 20:51
Here is an old (10th century) perspective on spirituality that would probably disagree with the article quoted above. It understands prayer and meditation as best when they are tied to their capacity to form real virtue in our concrete relationships with others. He acknowledges the validity of other forms of spirituality which are not so tied down to basic human concerns, but he feels that such forms are better left to saints and apostles, whose lives are already demonstrating compassion and justice. Otherwise we run the risk of falling into a kind of "quietism," where we imagine that our pure love for God makes it unnecessary for us to develop virtuous relationships with others.
Bernard of Clairvaux
I wonder how the saintly Bernard reconciled this prayer with endorsing the Second Crusade and sending vast numbers of Christians to the Holy Land and to their certain deaths, not to speak of the uncounted "infidels" they killed and maimed. Did he just mourn with and for them?
rishi
Posted on: 01/05/2012 11:34
I wonder how the saintly Bernard reconciled this prayer with endorsing the Second Crusade and sending vast numbers of Christians to the Holy Land and to their certain deaths, not to speak of the uncounted "infidels" they killed and maimed. Did he just mourn with and for them?
This we cannot know. We are in the same predicament as will be the future inquirers about why and how we made the particular choices that we did. Hopefully they will have as extensive and honest a history of our lives as possible to help guide them in their inquiries about us.
Panentheism
Posted on: 01/05/2012 13:06
The point of the article is integregration of action and worship - in one sense you cannot have one without the other in the long haul. Yes working with the poor is crucial ( and other good works) but those who are in it for the long haul need some sustaining power - for some that is worship. Those churches who combine the two are vital. It is when one or the other of action and worship are the focus, at the expense of the one or the other, that churches fail. Only action leaves tired people, only worship leaves irrelevant people. We connect worship and action to heal the world.
Without some coherent sense of purpose - be it pray or ideology - people give up. Ideology only gets you so far - deep prayer connects us to the aim of God and God at work in the world through us.
Arminius
Posted on: 01/05/2012 14:08
I wonder how the saintly Bernard reconciled this prayer with endorsing the Second Crusade and sending vast numbers of Christians to the Holy Land and to their certain deaths, not to speak of the uncounted "infidels" they killed and maimed. Did he just mourn with and for them?
This we cannot know. We are in the same predicament as will be the future inquirers about why and how we made the particular choices that we did. Hopefully they will have as extensive and honest a history of our lives as possible to help guide them in their inquiries about us.
Hi Rishi:
Bernard's edorsement of the Second Crusade notwithstanding, I am one of his fans, and I admire the Cistercians, the order he founded. If I had lived in the Middle Ages, I most certainly would have become a Cistercian or a Knight Templar, the knightly order he praised, endorsed, and popularized. Even if I had to live my life in the 20th century over again, I would ask to be admitted into the Cistercian Order and gladly submit to their discipline. I think that Bernard and the Cistercians, along with outstanding Dominicans like Meister Eckhart, Albertus Magnus, and Thomas Aquinas, were part of the movement that aimed to reform the medieval Church.
Bernard was ordered by the Pope to endorse the Second Crusade. In order to retain his position as the Abbott of Citeaux and head of the Cistercian order, he had to bow to the political realities of his day. I don't doubt that he did it with a heavy heart.
Arminius
Posted on: 01/05/2012 20:34
The point of the article is integregration of action and worship - in one sense you cannot have one without the other in the long haul. Yes working with the poor is crucial ( and other good works) but those who are in it for the long haul need some sustaining power - for some that is worship. Those churches who combine the two are vital. It is when one or the other of action and worship are the focus, at the expense of the one or the other, that churches fail. Only action leaves tired people, only worship leaves irrelevant people. We connect worship and action to heal the world.
Without some coherent sense of purpose - be it pray or ideology - people give up. Ideology only gets you so far - deep prayer connects us to the aim of God and God at work in the world through us.
Yes, Pan, doing good deeds alone is not enough to keep a congregation or denomination together, neither is ideology alone. There has to be a deeper, spiritual and experiential connection, with each other and God, that unites us as a spiritual community and gives purpose to our actions.
seeler
Posted on: 01/05/2012 14:26
Some people are so godly that they are no earthly good.
sighsnootles
Posted on: 01/06/2012 20:33
Some people are so godly that they are no earthly good.
BEST.
POST.
EVER.
Arminius
Posted on: 01/07/2012 01:55
Some people are so good that they are no good, eh?
Kateri
Posted on: 01/07/2012 05:05
I think this is true in alot of ways too.
Having grown up and raised Catholic with no truly personal hang-ups (but much larger ones in terms of LGBT tolerance and eventual acceptance, the ideas of womanhood, etc.), I found the devotions inspiring. I still love the rosary and ask intercession from Mary and the Saints for guidance to this very day. Catholicism and Orthodoxy has this immense wealth and treasure of spirituality that reaches the depths of the Christian soul - and yet, what is lacking is this deepened faith in action and social justice.
Alot of Evangelical churches that I have been to, even the mega-churches, all emphasised this need to spread this belief about Jesus Christ, without performing some social charity and actions on the one hand, and utilising more contemplative methods of prayer to deepen one's spiritual inclinations for another.
I think a healthy church should foster both faith and its variations, and its works.
"If any think they are religious, and do not bridle their tongues but deceive their hearts, their religion is worthless. Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to care for orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world."
-- James 1:26-27 (NRSV)
Panentheism
Posted on: 01/07/2012 12:36
Some people are so godly that they are no earthly good.
BEST.
POST.
EVER.
Sorry it is not - while nice it does not get at the issue of faith and action and the need for both.
This week a friend who works in an area of children and poverty and risk talked about needing a faith home that would sustain her in her work - she needed it and those who had that were there for the long haul. The issue was there were not enough of those communites of faith, and at the same time too many people running out of gas in her area of work because doing good was not good enough. In fact the doing of good was becoming the enemy of the better.
So back to the point of the article - those congregations that connect action and prayer were flourishing and helped flourishing.
sighsnootles
Posted on: 01/08/2012 10:40
Sorry it is not - while nice it does not get at the issue of faith and action and the need for both.
WORST.
POST.
EVER.
Neo
Posted on: 01/08/2012 11:00
Sorry it is not - while nice it does not get at the issue of faith and action and the need for both.
WORST.
POST.
EVER.
Neo "likes" this post.
Panentheism
Posted on: 01/08/2012 11:17
Sorry it is not - while nice it does not get at the issue of faith and action and the need for both.
WORST.
POST.
EVER.
Neo "likes" this post.
I cannot help if one cannot understand critical thinking.
You all miss the point
Neo
Posted on: 01/08/2012 11:28
We're just having fun Pan.
Panentheism
Posted on: 01/08/2012 12:02
OK
waterfall
Posted on: 01/08/2012 12:17
Personally, I think it's very easy to fall into asking what benefits the holy spirit will give to us or the church, but when we believe we are owned by the Holy Spirit we are compelled to follow God. Experiencing the holy spirit seals our heart and creates an appetite for being a servant to God's will and not our own.
Kimmio
Posted on: 01/08/2012 14:01
Sorry it is not - while nice it does not get at the issue of faith and action and the need for both.
WORST.
POST.
EVER.
Neo "likes" this post.
LOL. Sighs, you crack me up.
sighsnootles
Posted on: 01/08/2012 15:14
I cannot help if one cannot understand critical thinking.
You all miss the point
yep.
i can't ever comprehend your posts, pan.
i have no problem admitting that i am nowhere near as theologically gifted as you are.
Kimmio
Posted on: 01/08/2012 21:11
I think what it comes down to is that people find different ways of connecting with God and "recharging their batteries", and one is no more or less important than the other... For some, it's familiarity and feeling safe or what they grew up with, for others it's creativity, for others it's open discussion, for others it's a certain type of music, for others it's medidtative prayer... which is why there doesn't seem to be one denomination or worship style that suits everyone...but as it helps a person seek God, feel connected to God, and to be better, to heal and be healed...then it's all good.
. Will post more later. Maybe start a new thread.
chansen
Posted on: 01/09/2012 18:07
Some people are so godly that they are no earthly good.
BEST.
POST.
EVER.
Sorry it is not - while nice it does not get at the issue of faith and action and the need for both.
This week a friend who works in an area of children and poverty and risk talked about needing a faith home that would sustain her in her work - she needed it and those who had that were there for the long haul. The issue was there were not enough of those communites of faith, and at the same time too many people running out of gas in her area of work because doing good was not good enough. In fact the doing of good was becoming the enemy of the better.
So back to the point of the article - those congregations that connect action and prayer were flourishing and helped flourishing.
Faith is the antithesis of action. It is inaction, trying very hard to look like action. The example you cite tries to tie faith to stamina, but are we to believe that this remarkable woman, if she re-weighed the evidence and decided that the points for God didn't add up, would suddenly quit?
I submit that this woman is remarkable because she is remarkable - not because she talks to herself in a group setting.
Many jobs and volunteer positions that require people to fight the worst situations that life has to offer, experience high turnover. And there is nothing to suggest that the faithful have any more stamina when it comes to fulfulling the requirements of these positions.
As always, it is important for people to recharge. Whether that comes in the form of prayer, contemplation, or Tetris, all have the capacity to give people an escape from their surroundings before they have to go back to the front lines.
Panentheism
Posted on: 01/09/2012 19:03
chansen thank you - you have made my point. Especially in the last paragraph....
chansen
Posted on: 01/09/2012 21:27
Your point was that faith is as useful as Tetris?
sighsnootles
Posted on: 01/10/2012 07:53
could be... apparently pan can read my mind and is confident enough in his abilities to tell me what i do and do not like.
so if pan says tetris is good, i'm off to download the popcap version...
is that the version i like, pan?? i want to make sure before i drop $20 on it....
WaterBuoy
Posted on: 01/10/2012 10:24
Critical thinking?
A sin to institutional authority that would despise the hint that the institution requires change.
Carlisle would debate the point in crossing (X-Maas?) of his mind, then to authorities, underlings are not supposed to have a mind of their own ... even if creation gave then one (empty at first with the intent that the article of interest would put something in it) should destiny, the fates be full phi lead? Lead sometimes is ethereal gold, old Hebrew adage, wrapped up in medieval alchemai ... basic form of relating to all-that-is! Difficult to approach as mortal .. a limited isolated thing from God (metaphor; all-there-is tuit) inclusive of the-ought process ... often oppressed by alternate powers of greed ... an emotional extension!
Would it not be better to teach the absent of wisdom (neigè-Tory philosophy) rather than try and pound them into a mold that didn't work in the first place ... an error in the 'ole thing as ID began? Hole thing were there's something that wasn't ... 'ole geist ... thoughtful dissonance in denied dimensions ... mental space? The daemons down there giggle at receiving moor ... avast pool of discarde thoughts to ruminate upon ... as a conne bear in the rocks ... stoned rab'ID ... thus roch stew ... difficult brewing place for those that believe they shouldn't go there ...? Ofcourse it all depends of phonetic ... the way the writ is expressed, can be twisted .. as gynes in warped space ot the intuitional mind! Difficult to unravel once placed there ... how many can curl their tongues in the opposing direction of the norm ... eM, the paradigm as accepted, right or otherwise! With all the crap that's told as as altruistic ... is it any wonder the uninitiated in the quest is confused ... chaotic of the other form?
Panentheism
Posted on: 01/10/2012 11:31
could be... apparently pan can read my mind and is confident enough in his abilities to tell me what i do and do not like.
so if pan says tetris is good, i'm off to download the popcap version...
is that the version i like, pan?? i want to make sure before i drop $20 on it....
No where have I read your mind nor can - I am puzzled by the response.
As for chansen - yes there is power in all the things you outline to give us energy to continue on the front lines - rest - etc recharges. The further point is there is a different level of recharging - faith is one those.
Now chansen you almost are empiricist. But the problem is you have this one size all metaphor for faith - you reduce it to the supernatural metaphor and that is not what is being refered to, and in fact is also rejected as the grounding of faith.
In one sense faith has different levels - the love of a child energizes us to work for transformation. That is not different in kind from a sense of the lure of God to love the world that works in us, through us, and in some type of community. The difference is one of intensity.
The other day we were discussing this issue of faith and action and the group of empiricists - a person who holds a canada research chair, a phd in biology, a phd in astronomy, others with advanced degrees all could see the role of some transcendent perpsective in helping keep one on the front line. The naming of that experience, be it music, or games, or yoga or christian faith ( or other faith communities) did have a value added to energy. At the same time all these things could also be negative in the sense of not allowing us to pay attention to what is happening in the world. There are some ideas that actual hurt us and the world. Thus critical thinking, critical realism is crucial to the reformation of ideas. Theology ought to be empirical, rational, poetic, and open to a sense of transcendence, and be continually reconstructed. No dogma. No supernatural cop outs.
sighsnootles
Posted on: 01/10/2012 11:42
No where have I read your mind nor can - I am puzzled by the response.
sure you did... a few posts back where you told me that i was wrong to like the 'some people are no earthly good' comment.
i'm puzzled that you can't remember that, considering how well educated you are...
Panentheism
Posted on: 01/10/2012 12:14
I did not say you were wrong - only that the post you claimed was the best post ever was only partially true - it is a comment that has some truth - earthy good - but it is not the whole picture. It refers to one side of the reality, and makes it the only reality.
My point was not that the statement does not have some truth but I disagreed with the idea it was the whole truth. Disagreement does not mean telling one what to believe but to suggest that the issue needs more discussion.
I did not say you were wrong in liking it but that the sweeping statement of best post ever was too broad - it may have been a nice post but not the best. So it is true I was critical but did not say you were personally wrong, only that the statement was asked too much.
sighsnootles
Posted on: 01/10/2012 12:43
so, YOU don't feel that it is the 'best post ever'.
FABULOUS!! WOOT WOOT WOOT!!
for me, however, it resonates very deeply... i grew up catholic, and the way in which the church heirarchy honours contemplative nuns boggles my mind. that these people sit up in some room, completely isolated from everyone and everything, and seriously believe that they are making a contribution to the world?!?!?
WHAT THE F(*(*&?!?!?
really. mind boggling to me. get out there and minister to the poor and the sick. sitting there and praying is nothing more than navel gazing, imho. especially when you consider that there are other nuns and laypeople expected to feed them, clothe them, keep the water and heat running, etc. what a completely USELESS excercise.
it reminds me of my own kids. no matter how much you beg, plead, and tell me that i am the greatest parent, you still can't have an 'x-box'. that is my decision, now lets just accept it and move on. in fact, it pisses me off when the kids whine and make a production out of it. i can't imagine that god would feel much different about it, in fact.
THAT is why i think it is the best post ever. still do. it resonates beautifully for me.
you do not share my life experiences though, pan. if you choose to disagree, then off ya go!!
Panentheism
Posted on: 01/10/2012 12:55
When we marched with King we spent time in prayer. The problem is that I see prayer as efficacious, so those monks and nuns were actually helping the flourishing of the world.
So yes I understand your point - ministering to the sick et al is crucial.... the point is still is there efficacious power that supports those who are on the front line. So it is not an either/or.
I understand it does reonate with you, but for me it is a partial truth. To reduce everthing to quietism is to allow evil to flourish, so we agree on no damn good. The other side of the equation is sometimes those who heal the sick impose their ego and decide what is best for those they seek to help..... so balance is needed so I am neither hiddening out or being ego driven that is imposing my view and thinking I know what is best for those we seek to help.
Too many social activists ( and I am) sometimes fall into I Know what is best. Too many social activists burn out because they cannot see the efficacious nature of their work - we only influence and prayer is one way we influence, but not the only way.
Panentheism
Posted on: 01/10/2012 12:57
By the I marched with too many catholics who began in quiet prayer, and returned to it for energy. They honored the contemplatives as those who marched with them.
rishi
Posted on: 01/10/2012 13:33
churches should not be focused on praying... that is navel gazing to me. imho, the most powerful way to pray is to help the poor.
ok. I think a lot of people have that view.
But what if, in the midst of helping the poor, the poor ask you to teach them to pray, or meditate, or still the inner voices that tell them they are not worthy to be protected from harm? In other words, what if the poor require help with more than their material needs?
What do you do if the poor have a view of the help that they need which conflicts with the kind of help that you want to offer them? Do you tell them that those needs of theirs are not really valid in your opinion? or that helping them in such areas is not what the church should be doing?
What if they are right, and you are wrong? Or, more likely, what if you both are somewhat right and somewhat wrong in your views of what is best? How can you work that out together?
revjohn
Posted on: 01/10/2012 14:42
Hi rishi,
Do you agree with the following brief article? Is this the key?
It is one of several keys not the only key.
The real problem is not that congregations do not have access to this key it is that there are several keys on the key ring and when they get to this particular door they flip through all of the keys one, by one, until they find the right key.
Some keys don't fit in the lock. Others will but won't move all the right tumblers and then they jam in the lock so you spend hours fiddling with the key until it comes out. Maybe we fiddle so much the key breaks off in the lock so you have to call in a locksmith to fix that particular problem before you can move on.
We also have a rather thick tendency to suppose that because one key opened one door it must be useful for opening all doors. "Building on our strengths" we call it as if lengthening the longest stave in a bucket keeps water from leaking out over the shortest stave.
I also suspect that the reference to piety will predispose some folk to view the article negatively just as using the word "evangelism" will impact negatively upon some ears.
There isn't really much pointed to in the article which is surprising. Even the expressions of bewilderment that we (the church) have a strategy to attack a problem and we (again, the church) tend to push it aside to find another strategy.
Grace and peace to you.
John
sighsnootles
Posted on: 01/10/2012 15:17
When we marched with King we spent time in prayer. The problem is that I see prayer as efficacious, so those monks and nuns were actually helping the flourishing of the world.
how so??
do you see prayer as asking god to intercede in world affairs, or helping the person praying??
So yes I understand your point - ministering to the sick et al is crucial.... the point is still is there efficacious power that supports those who are on the front line. So it is not an either/or.
again, how so??
are you saying that the prayers of others help me, or that i help myself by praying??
I understand it does reonate with you, but for me it is a partial truth.
for you, but not for me.
To reduce everthing to quietism is to allow evil to flourish, so we agree on no damn good.
this statement makes no sense to me.
can you clarify what you mean by this?
The other side of the equation is sometimes those who heal the sick impose their ego and decide what is best for those they seek to help..... so balance is needed so I am neither hiddening out or being ego driven that is imposing my view and thinking I know what is best for those we seek to help.
so, you are saying that without prayer, i would 'impose my ego' on those i seek to assist??
how so??
i know lots of athiests who do amazing work with the poor, and they don't seem to struggle with this at all.
Too many social activists ( and I am) sometimes fall into I Know what is best. Too many social activists burn out because they cannot see the efficacious nature of their work - we only influence and prayer is one way we influence, but not the only way.
again, do you honestly believe that people who do nothing more than pray, day in day out, are actually making some kind of difference in the world??
how so??
sighsnootles
Posted on: 01/10/2012 15:18
By the I marched with too many catholics who began in quiet prayer, and returned to it for energy. They honored the contemplatives as those who marched with them.
how so??
Berserk
Posted on: 01/10/2012 15:19
We must not forget that for Jesus and the Torah "the first and greatest commandment" is to love God with all one's heart, soul, and mind." The command to love one's neighbor as oneself only comes in second! True, I can't love God with all my heart unless I also love my neighbor, but loving God is much more than loving one's neighbor and is a higher priority,. The t ruth is, that love of neighbor will inevitably become tedious, draining, self-serving, or manipulative unless it is energized by a rich intimate relationship with God. The indispensible fruit of the Spirit are just that--fruit of the Spirit, not of human striving--i. e. largely the product of a rich contemplative inner life.
Many on this site demonstrate their misunderstanding of this truth by the way they seem to disdain the monastics. A few years ago, when I toured Greece, my group visited the awesome monasteries atop the mountains at Meteori. Our guide reminded us that the beautiful young women (30ish) we observed there were often well educated and had given up careers as doctors and school teachers for the higher cause of loving God with all their hearts in a serving community of likeminded women. Now I am not Greek Orthodox and prefer a minstry of serving the poor through the local church. But we all have different callings and those women may be serving God in the best way poosible for their specific callings. They should not be judged for their sacrifice.
sighsnootles
Posted on: 01/10/2012 15:29
But what if, in the midst of helping the poor, the poor ask you to teach them to pray, or meditate, or still the inner voices that tell them they are not worthy to be protected from harm? In other words, what if the poor require help with more than their material needs?
if someone i was working with told me they were hearing voices that told them they aren't worthy, i'd make sure they got psychiatric help. i have no qualifications to aid people who are having mental or emotional issues, and if there is one thing i learned from all my years of nursing training, it was that the most damage is done by people who don't know what they are doing by try and 'help out' anyways....
What do you do if the poor have a view of the help that they need which conflicts with the kind of help that you want to offer them?
you don't go to people and TELL THEM what they need, though. that is no help at all.
if a person tells you that what they need is something i am not able to provide, i do whatever i can to connect them with the people who CAN help them.
i think that the greatest strength i have is that i am not afraid to admit my limitations, nor do i think it is a limitation to seek the assistance of someone who is more knowledgeable than i am.
Do you tell them that those needs of theirs are not really valid in your opinion?
good grief no. where on earth did you ever come up with the idea that assisting others means telling them what they need??
that just doesn't work well, for many reasons.
or that helping them in such areas is not what the church should be doing?
are you suggesting that the church can help people with their mental issues?? cause i think that is just dangerous.
What if they are right, and you are wrong?
what a bizarre question... if a person tells you what it is they need, and you do whatever you can to help them, that question is kinda moot, isn't it??
Or, more likely, what if you both are somewhat right and somewhat wrong in your views of what is best? How can you work that out together?
again, that makes no sense to me... can you give me an example of what you are talking about here??
sighsnootles
Posted on: 01/10/2012 15:39
We must not forget that for Jesus and the Torah "the first and greatest commandment" is to love God with all one's heart, soul, and mind." The command to love one's neighbor as oneself only comes in second! True, I can't love God with all my heart unless I also love my neighbor, but loving God is much more than loving one's neighbor and is a higher priority,. The t ruth is, that love of neighbor will inevitably become tedious, draining, self-serving, or manipulative unless it is energized by a rich intimate relationship with God. The indispensible fruit of the Spirit are just that--fruit of the Spirit, not of human striving--i. e. largely the product of a rich contemplative inner life.
for me, though, the two are completely entwined...
when you see god and jesus in other people, then serving them IS loving god, isn't it?? why would you even consider 'second' and 'first'?!?!? they are the same thing!!!
honestly, when i work with foster kids, i'm loving and serving god every time i pick them up when they are crying, feed them, change their diaper...
how is that NOT loving and serving god?!?!?
Many on this site demonstrate their misunderstanding of this truth by the way they seem to disdain the monastics.
this 'truth' you claim to have the market cornered on is simply not something that i understand. i grew up catholic, berserk. i've studied the bible alot. like, A LOT.
what are you suggesting my deficiency is here??
because i just don't understand how sitting in a room all day helps the poor.
enlighten me, please. and try and do it without telling me how much more biblically literate you are than i am, cause MAN i am sick and tired of people telling me that because we disagree on some bit of dogma that i am some kind of moron.
A few years ago, when I toured Greece, my group visited the awesome monasteries atop the mountains at Meteori. Our guide reminded us that the beautiful young women (30ish) we observed there were often well educated and had given up careers as doctors and school teachers for the higher cause of loving God with all their hearts in a serving community of likeminded women.
hey, if that is what turns their crank, then whatever. i'm saying it makes no sense to me.
now, are you going to keep telling me how unelightened i am, or are you going to try and explain this belief of yours to me??
Now I am not Greek Orthodox and prefer a minstry of serving the poor through the local church. But we all have different callings and those women may be serving God in the best way poosible for their specific callings. They should not be judged for their sacrifice.
see, i don't consider serving god to be 'a sacrifice'.
it is a joy to follow the path that god and jesus have set for me. thats a very catholic thing, that whole 'sacrifice' and 'martyr' thing....
perhaps that is where i am failing to see how this thing works... yes, if you feel that loving and serving god is some kind of sacrifice, then yeah.
BetteTheRed
Posted on: 01/10/2012 23:13
Some of us are all Mary, and some are all Martha. The luckiest, I think, combine the two.
I suspect you're largely Martha, sighsnootles, because I recognize some of your feelings in myself. Martha is Godde's hands and feet in the world, and she moves through it doing the next right thing because service is her joy.
WaterBuoy
Posted on: 01/11/2012 09:53
One time someone said it is difficult to walk the line ... balance in the medium we call mankind ... that is considerably extreme ... either far to one side or the other and they can't get it all together.
It appears all one can do is observe the critter and write about the experience ... for no one at this time (present spirit) wishes to hear anything ... especially a larger truth that requires a mind capable of greate extension ... to encompass the whole thing as a learning experience while out of the infinite mode. It is a short trip however ... like the blink of an eye from the larger perspective?
Is that odd or what perhaps just w'Eire de ...? Wired is like communicative eh; some arn't ... they'd rather fight than have intercourse (metaphorically in the Platonic Form)! Most mortals infested with emotions don't get the transient foundation of sol' ... is word and also the fruit thereof ...
Creation made a place for war ... and decided it was a good place to put his children ... with a bit of paen they might see something in nothing to make something of ... like staring into the dimension of mind ... spacey ... what? Descriptions thereof drive mortals crazy ... you couldn't begin to define IT! That would be Afar Stretch in the wilderness possessed by a population of near hostile people who don't wish there quietude suffering dissonance from mortals ... unless it creates a giggle ... RIP Elles in space? One has to dah belle in it ... like peering into the unknown with great care ...
sighsnootles
Posted on: 01/11/2012 11:08
i'm sorry waterbuoy...
as hard as i try to understand your posts, i can't make sense of them. i wish i were deep enough to get what you are trying to impart.
Panentheism
Posted on: 01/11/2012 12:32
Some of the posts correctly rejects prayer as superstition. And much of the poetic language some use is what those of us who are panentheists use. The difference is, the sacred is not some vague inner reality or vague external. The sacred is actual with an aim that can be felt. This aim comes from the Supreme Related One, Supreme Love. That reality flows in all reality and can be known and listened to, as a lure for more a intense, compassionate, just reality.
There are two problems with some posters position. They do reject classical theism but their paradigm does not change. They have just move the superstitious prayer to the self.
Behind such theology, which is not different in kind from what many reject, is they have not really listened to Feuerbach. Her talk of listening to ones heart is to locate the sacred in the self. And it is the self, as Feuerbach said, that projects the sacred onto reality.
Yes, prayer is deep listening to self, others, nature. It is also deep listening to Supreme Love who is in all reality and has an interest in the world becoming more beautiful. And needs us to actualize the action, That is why we need prayer, for through deep listening we can flow with Supreme Love, and feel that flow in others.
So our sense of prayer is tied up with our sense of God. Prayer begins in the trust in God which leads to the question of our sense of God; what is our understanding of God? Behind all the posts is some model of God. Model being the way we let external experience become accessible. Not all models are helpful. One unhelpful model is the supernaturalistic classic theism which includes intervention. Those in reaction to that offer no new model to make sense of prayer as efficacious other than it works on us. When the model is classical theism, healing raises the question of why some are healed and others are not? And training the brain can be seen reductionistically, for it can exclude a sense of God who has agency and influence.
The issue of prayer, then, calls out for a different image of God then what is called interventionist or supernatural/classic theism, which we assume or are in reaction to. How do we maintain some sense of a God who cares for us, which makes prayer crucial. Of course, one can leave the answer as one of influencing ones best impulses; yet the very acceptance of giving good vibes can suggest a model of God who has some influence by working with our intentions.
The model that helps is the panentheistic model. It begins in a relational view of the world. Influence is felt and passed through information pulsing through the web of life. And one of the influences is; God pervades the universe and therefore ourselves. Prayer is an openness to this pervasive presence who has the aim of peace, compassion, and justice for this world. Yet that aim can only be persuasive and thus needs response by us to be actualized. The intervention, then, is natural, in the same way all influence happens in a relational world; things do effect other things. Prayer is a valuing up of that impulse, which is there whether we acknowledge it or not. And our participation with the impulse makes a difference to the world, to us and to God. God is in relationship with all things, effecting and being effected. Thus prayer gets us in touch with the wooing interdependent reality we call God, wooing us to deeper experiences of well-being.
This suggests that those who pray for us effect us. It is through a web of relationships. When gathering with King praying was for strength, that our work would influence those we met, that the Love Supreme would also inlfuence the web of relationships, that our work would value up the Love that is there in others, whether they acknowledge it.
Prayer then works efficaciously in us, and naturally through the fact of the web of relationships, that informations is within the system and flows throught the system. No one lives uneffected by is and is around them, and prayer can actually value up the love within the system,within those who are on the front lines, whether or not they acknowledge it is there. Prayer is the end is our encounter with the deep which calls within us deep sense of being connected, and gives energy to those who live out their vocation of care. It is, in a sense, a support system coming from those who care, and it gives energy. Further, worship can help those who feel a call of service to hang in when it gets tough and things look hopeless, it can reengerize. And as I said worship is one amongst many ways of energizing, but it has the added value of making conscious there is within the world a Love Supreme at work seeking wholeness, and is dependent on us to acheive that.