His Lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy Lord.

 "'My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.'
 

Oh dear God, give me a break!  Please God, make the drivel stop!  Thank you in advance for your help in this.  Amen. 

Your humble servant,

Qwerty

Amen Qwerty

I've been trying for months to get a stain out of my kitchen counter, to no effect.  I try every time I wash down the counter.  I wonder if God will reward my persistence on that one?

Hi chansen: If you rub hard enough and long enough, God will reward your persistence by giving you strong arm muscles.

An even better way to develop strong arms would be to grow a garden. Then God will give you plenty of food and enjoyment as well.

Qwerty, Crazyheart, would you be so kind as to clarify what you're both talking about?  Thank you kindly.

Hi Chasen.  Sometimes I have a round about way of thinking of things.  To me, this would mean that I have to accept something (myself) as marred or stained (sinful) so that I could understand that it doesn't (I don't) ever have to be perfect (perfect).  But that's just me and the message I get from things like that -- please don't think I'm intending any offence or inferring anyone else might be stained...

Oh and by the way, sink $1.99 into a Magic Eraser.  It'll remove your stain for you ;-)

Interesting Arminius.  In my life, I find that something I do with no regard to reward is the time I'm rewarded tenfold.  I once read somewhere that if you tell someone of a good deed you have done, you've already received your reward.  I guess this is how I see things.

Hi emmalong66:

This site hard on fundies because it makes fun of them. But it also makes fun of liberals. But liberals can take it, whereas fundies take years to learn to take it. Talk to those fundies who have been part of wondercafe for years, they have learned to take it and dish it out.

I see that this time my prayers may not have been answered.

Try praying to Joe Pesci instead.  Your success rate will be similar, but it's much more entertaining to imagine how Joe would set things right.

Seriously, Qwerty, please tell me why you're thinking what you're thinking -- if for no other reason than to confirm what I inferred by your words.

What if you're right and I'm wrong? Maybe you have something to teach me.  I have a couple of friends that say things like you did above, and I'd like to know what's "wrong" with either my sharing of that story, someone writing that story, or believing in it, or people commenting on it, etcetera.

I don't care who's right either way, but I would like to discuss it.

Thank you kindly.

So, I can either accept Jesus to absolve my sins and remove the stain in the process, or buy a Magic Eraser and keep my Sundays free?  That seems like too much of a no-brainer.  Maybe I misinterpreted.

LOL I'm sorry Chasen, that's not what I meant at all.  I was just saying that for me -- remember, my words are only ever my own opinion of things -- that I need to accept some things about mysef, because I will never be perfect -- and I don't need to be.  I meant that I've learned to live with some of my imperfections because in the grand scheme of things, they've made me what, and who, I am.  I've accepted Jesus as my Savior and know that he has absolved me of my sins, but I know no matter how I try, I will never be perfect.  But for me?  I'm good enough for me for now; I truly believe God will point me in the direction He needs me to go.

It actually wasn't a crack about some kind of magic wand that will make all things better.  I meant, literally, that a Magic Eraser works like a charm to take counter stains out -- that's all.

Hope this helps.

Thanks for sharing - I have heard variations of this before and quite like the message.

It's a reminder that we often undertake a task in faith, expecting a great end result but really all that is asked of us is to do that task.  I think of our hot meal program at church (which won't solve the problem of poverty but fills hungry bellies, provides hospitality and gives the guests an experience of community each week).

Yes, Qwerty, it does provide me with some insight, and I thank you very much for sharing it with me.  My views may be simplistic, idealistic and altruistic, but I believe that's because I am barely a babe in my faith, and I am learning every day.  I value everyone's opinion, even though I may not, at first (or ever), agree with it.

I want to think about some of the things you've said here, and I wish to comment on them tomorrow after some reflection.  Whether or not you wish to continue this discussion is purely up to you -- but I appreciate your candor and your honestly in your response.  I come to you with an honest and open heart Qwerty, please believe that.

I haven't come to this site to fight with anyone, to proclaim my righteousness with a closed and proud heart, or to instill -- and force -- my beliefs in the power of God in my life.  I come here only to share.  And learn.  Nothing more.

Okay Emma, one minute more ... I never said (nor implied) your views were idealistic and altruistic.  There is nothing there of idealism or altruism.   

You know Emma, in review I think my post was too harsh.  Its probably not what you needed (or deserved) to hear (although I think I pretty much told it like it is with that mass produced story of yours). 

I've been around this site for a very long time and I've seen a lot of fundamentalists come and go but not without causing a great deal of upset.  Their modus operendi is always the same.  They come up with some (often lame) parable or proposition and then say, "What do you think of that?"  When people open up and say what they think, the fundy then starts to beat on them with a club made of biblical quotations and narrow interpretations.  When I saw your little story that is what I saw coming.  In other words there was some pre-judging going on there that shouldn't have been.

You've got to understand that many of the people here are extremely knowledgeable, educated and well read and their faith is a nuanced and delicate thing not easy to articulate in the kind of sound bites fundamentalists love so well.  Notwithstanding that, great strength and resiliency (and wisdom) flows forth from it.  The river of their spirituality is fed from many streams.  Scripture is one stream but it is not the only one.  The faith of the people here draws from all of human knowledge, from physics, astrophysics, other world religions, literature as well as the bible.  It all goes into the pot and each thing is given its due weight.  This is an effort to achieve balance and it is sometimes complicated (and hardly ever simplistic) but it is satisfying and it opens many horizons.  Certainly we are not all of the same mind.  Nowhere is belief less homogeneous than at Wondercafe.

For many of us our religion and spirituality is a work in progress ... a finely wrought thing ... and sometimes we are wont to begin protecting it based simply on expectations arising out of our past experiences (and perhaps, as today, prematurely). 

Stick around!  I hope you mean it about wanting to learn because there is lots to learn here (especially from the posters who are not named qwerty).  Lay off the leaden parables and go easy on the bible quotations.  Mix in a modicum of ecumenism and cosmic wonder and keep your ears open.  I myself am going to start to try to ask more questions and make fewer statements in the future so maybe I can learn more.  The people here have a lot to offer.

Very nice post,qwerty. Now , I get 20 lashes with a wet noodle for calling you a jerk last week.

And welcome to the cafe emma. Nice to have you here.

qwerty wrote: "You know Emma, in review I think my post was too harsh."

EZ Answer: You think? ;-)

Yeah I'm pretty sure ...

Not so much.

OK,  you say you're not perfect, and you've accepted that.  Sounds healthy.  Then you inject Jesus into the mix again, to absolve you of your sins, though that doesn't change your imperfect status, which you already stated you were OK with.

Meanwhile, God (who is Jesus - I get that, kinda) is steering you, which I suppose is why you need Jesus to absolve you of your sins, so that you qualify for this Godly autopilot feature?  Sounds complicated, and not just a little far-fetched.

I mean, if you're so well-adjusted, what's with all the sins that need absolving?  Are we talking hereditary (and imaginary) original sin that we're all said to be born with, or one or more of the seven deadly sins, or just run-of-the-mill stuff like swearing or driving aggressively?  Whatever the sins or combination thereof, apparently your choice to accept some guy you never met as your savior has taken a load off your mind.  It's pretty cool, this "vicarious redemption" thing.  As an imaginary solution to imaginary problems, I'm sure it has no equal.  But at the end of the day, it's just such a crock.  If we're talking actual unethical behaviour, then it's up to you (or a jury of your peers) to make things right.  If we're talking manufactured guilt, that can be dismissed offhand as pure fabrication.  Either way, it's not Jesus making your decisions or coming to your rescue.  It's you.  Or a team of high-priced attorneys.

Hi, all -

Emma, I've been doing some thinking about the story you shared with us. There are things in it that make some sense to me. There are also things in it that make me go, "Hmmm." So, I decided to do a re-write. Tell me what you think.

You, too, qwerty. 

Christ's peace - r

--
(Oh, right... feel free to share it - standard CC-a-nc-sa license. *LOL*)

A man living in a small apartment in the downtown of a large city woke up one night, having dreamed a dream. No – it was more than a dream. It was a Call. In it, he had heard God saying, “There is something that I want you to do.”

The man asked God what it was. God said, “When you step outside your door tomorrow, you're going to meet a number of people – my children. One of my children needs your help. I need you to help that one.”

The man took that dream seriously. He rose out of bed, did all of the morning things, and headed out into the world. He met a number of people that day. He found himself confused. Which of these people was he to help? How was he to help that person? In his confusion, he missed some pretty big opportunities to offer healing or hope.

The next night, he had a similar dream to the night before.

“I need you to help that one...”

Day after day, he rose and went about his life, trying to figure out how to respond to God's call. Sometimes he got frustrated. Sometimes he was filled with apathy. Sometimes he wondered if he could actually do what God needed him to do. There were time he was sure that anything he did would just be a drop in the bucket.

Then, one day, he decided, “AUGH! I don't know who! I don't know how! But I'm going to do something!” So, in a moment of frustrated love, he helped an old man who had tripped on the curb, sitting with him until they both knew everything was all right.

He had done something. It had been helpful – but had it been for the right person?

The next day he offered a smile and a listening ear. The next day he gathered with a couple of others and wrote letters of concern about a woman jailed because she had stood for human rights. The next day he prayed with a woman who was wondering where her life was going. The next day he visited an elder in a senior's complex. The next day he helped make sandwiches and soup at the foodbank. The next day... well... he helped. The next day, and the next day, and the day after that, too.

And every time, he sent a quick query to God, “Is this the person? Is this how I'm supposed to help?” He prayed and he prayed and he prayed.

One night, after years of praying and doing and being he found himself in dreamtime again. There was God, sitting with a cup of coffee, looking at him. As God pushed another cup in front of him, the man said, “God, I think I've done what you've asked me – but I'm not sure. I've tried to be faithful to your request, but I'm not sure if I've helped the person you hoped I would... and even if I did, I don't know if I helped them the way you hoped. I really think – well – that I've failed.”

God looked at him with a wide, caring smile and put an arm around his shoulder. “You didn't fail in the least. I asked you to help my child – and you did! Yes, there were times you were afraid; and, yes, there were times you didn't know what to do. But where you could, you did! You listened and you loved and you lived that love.”

“But which one was it?”

“Close your eyes,” God replied.

In front of his eyes the man saw each person he had helped – some by his actions, some by his being.

“Open your eyes,” God said.

In front of him was a mirror.

“All of them, Child.

   All of them.”

(And the one on the throne will say to them, “When you did this to the least of one of mine, you did it to me. - rb's riff on Matthew 25.40)

that was amazing, richard bott.

thanks

ps...my father fell on friday, june 26...and i think of the wonderful folks who cared for him while he lay bleeding on the sidewalk...each of those folks were caring to him & my mom. Took time to sit with him, keep the sun off him, keep mom back so she didn't see him. Dad went back & thanked them today personally

So Emma,

Just as an example of the simple minded crap one receives from fundamentalists on this site, I give you this ...

    "qwerty, you will either TURN from your sins to Jesus or you will BURN for your sins. If you reject the Lord Jesus Christ, you will be tormented in the flames forever without a single, solitary hope. The biggest fool in the world chooses hell. No need to argue with me about this. God said hell is real, your argument is with Him and you won't win that one. You have been warned. Repent or perish."
 

I just cut and pasted it out of another thread.  Now were I some sort of inbred, uneducated hillbilly this stuff might impress me.  However, I am quite a bit past this infantile and implausible sort of superstition now.  I know too much and I've seen too much and if I wanted to try and express it in simple terms I don't believe any repentence is required to have God's grace.  I believe he (and it) is always with us.  We can never lose God's favour.

Send the sort of stuff around such as I've just quoted and people here will likely think you're an imbecile. 

Well Emma I enjoyed your story and have heard it before. I believe a simple, sincere faith is just as good as an intellectually dissected overbaked one.

"and a little child shall lead them"

Welcome Emma we are here to help you on your walk. Yes even Qwerty I have to admit that he not only infuriates me at times he also makes me laugh and think. Anyways. I like the story that RichardBott told it is a natural progression from what you have started on. Each of our walks is different and hopefully at some point we will meet each other on the road to God.

Blessings and hugs

Musicsooths

...and, Emma,  try to remember there IS a difference between "childlike" and "childish"

Thanks, Pinga - I'm sorry to hear about your father's fall, and am gladdened to hear that he is all right!

qwerty - Might I suggest that you let your current points sit with Emma and the rest of us? I wonder if too much more pushing might have an opposite effect than the one you're hoping for.

Christ's peace - r

I think the fundamentalist stage is a necessary developmental stage in spiritual evolution. Everyone is or has been implicated in it, and those who have evolved beyond it still carry it within themselves as an essential, developmental stage. "Development through envelopment."

In our spiritual deleopment, we all are somewhere along the way toward a distant goal, and no-one has arrived at the shining goal at the end of the path, not even those who fancy themselves "enlightened."

Yes Richard I was thinking the same thing ... and by the way nice job on the story ...

Hi.

I didn't like the story, but I didn't not like it THAT much. Still, I admire your lofty appraisal.

I feel inspired to post something profound real soon (as soon as I think of somthing profound) and will wait to see what form your praise takes. :-)

Regards...

Hey HG "didn't not" is a double negative!  Notwithstanding,  I look forward to your profundities ...

Arminius

Couldn't agree more.  You start out with the lily white Jesus and the guy on a cloud, and end up with Kosmic Wonder.

IT

Russ

Qwerty:

Sorry for the length of time it’s taken me to respond, but I really did need to think about things.  My response may be disjointed, but bear with me, please.

“Then God, with great compassion, answered. 'Son, you are not a failure. I asked you to push against that rock, and you were obedient. I never asked you to move it. I asked you only to push against it.'”

Being obedient is very important to me.  Sometimes I assume something more than what is intended (ie moving the rock versus just pushing it), so I have to take a step back and listen quietly again for direction.  Although this paragraph means something to me, it doesn’t have to mean anything to anyone else.  God doesn’t direct me to change the world, but I believe He does expect me to try.

Qwerty, I will never say to you, “either TURN from your sins to Jesus or you will BURN for your sins. If you reject the Lord Jesus Christ...”  This is not what I stand for, and never will.  This I can promise you.

“...fundamentalists come and go but not without causing a great deal of upset.  Their modus operendi is always the same.  They come up with some (often lame) parable or proposition and then say, 'What do you think of that?'”  

It’s interesting that you call me a fundamentalist -- until yesterday, I didn’t know I was one.  Fundamentalism is defined as, “(religion) The tendency to reduce a religion to its most fundamental tenets, based on strict interpretation of core texts.” (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fundamentalism) and also, “Strict adherence to any set of basic ideas or principles.”

About this, you’re right – I am a fundamentalist.  Like I mentioned in an earlier post, I am just a babe in my faith, and so I begin with the basics, and set down my beliefs for my own right of passage.  And while I might like to believe that everything is black and white, I know that I live the majority of my life in the gray, and accept it.

When you go on to say, “When people open up and say what they think, the fundy then starts to beat on them with a club made of biblical quotations and narrow interpretations.”  It’s obvious that fundies before me have done just this.  I, however, hope never to be counted one among their ranks.  I do believe that my interpretations may be narrow at times, but let me stress this:  I do have a narrow interpretation towards the Word as it applies to me, how I judge myself by it, and how I recognize in myself those things I need to change.  Not anyone else.  I don’t believe I have, and I pray that I will never, judge anyone else by my interpretations.

Qwerty, you say, “You've got to understand that many of the people here are extremely knowledgeable, educated and well read and their faith is a nuanced and delicate thing not easy to articulate in the kind of sound bites fundamentalists love so well.”  All I want to say to this is that I’m here to listen, and to learn, hoping to benefit from what you call, “The river of... [that is] spirituality is fed from many streams.”  As Arminius says, I also agree that, “the fundamentalist stage is a necessary developmental stage in spiritual evolution.”  I believe I was guided here by a Power Greater Than Myself (yes, that’s AA talking there), and I know I have many things to learn, and hopefully, something to give back.  I agree when you say that, “For many of us our religion and spirituality is a work in progress.”  It may be that discussions I enter into on this website, although potentially irritating, simplistic, annoying to others, are my “workbook exercises”, per se.

Finally, I am the one who labels myself simplistic, idealistic and altruistic – please don’t think I inferred that you said that of me.  I just know that’s what I am, and I’m not ashamed of it – God has given me a number of wonderful gifts/talents, and these attributes are what makes me able to learn.

Chasen, in response to your comment, “Whatever the sins or combination thereof, apparently your choice to accept some guy you never met as your savior has taken a load off your mind.”  I’m not sure how I can believe both things at once, but I do.  I came across something yesterday though, that I thought you (and others) might like:

“The beauty of religious mania is that it has the power to explain everything.  Once God (or Satan) is accepted as the first cause of everything which happens in the mortal world, nothing is left to chance... or change.  Once such incantatory phrases as... ‘mysterious are the ways He chooses His wonders to perform’ are mastered, logic can be happily tossed out the window.  Religious mania is one of the few infallible ways of responding to the world’s vagaries, because it totally eliminates pure accident.  To the true religious maniac, it’s all on purpose.”  Excerpted from The Stand by Stephen King, The Complete & Uncut Edition, (c) 1978 by Stephen King, Published by Penguin Books USA Inc.

Stephen King may also be correct.  You may also be correct.  But holding on to these principles and beliefs as strongly as I do allows me a wonderful quality of life.

RichardBott – thank you for your modern version of that story.  It’s actually more meaningful to me because of an exercise I did in a program last winter.  Everyone had to make a one-word comment on a picture they were shown without anyone else seeing – the picture of course was a mirror.  Thank you also for reminding me that, although I can live with my imperfections, in helping others, I’m also helping myself.

I apologize for the length of my reply.  Although most concepts can be gotten across in a simple sentence, I must admit – I’m not that simple LOL!

Thank you very much, everyone, for reading and sharing.

removed

Sorry to take so long to get to you Emma but I was out (working) until now.  I have to say again I was too critical yesterday.  I'm a lawyer and as such I am sometimes a "low trust" guy.  I do, however, want to offer this.  I think that when Stephen King writes that "the beautiful thing about religious mania is ...", he is being ironic.  He is not praising it, he is criticizing it.  He is explaining a process by which one becomes disempowered.  If religious mania explains everything then it explains nothing.  It freezes questioning and thus erects a barrier to empowerment.  It takes responsibility and the power of self-determination away from the individual afflicted with the mania and hands it off ... To what? ... God? fate?  

The person siezed by a religious mania can be likened to a drug user who having used drugs in the morning attributes everything good and everything bad that happens to the pipe they smoked or the acid they dropped in the morning.  If they write a poem it is because the drugs "made them more creative".  If they trip on a curbstone and break their nose it was because of the drugs.  If they beat on their wife it is because the drugs made them lose control of their temper.  If they insult their best friend it is because the drugs loosened their tongues and took away their inhibitions.  It is convenient.  It is easy.  Sometimes it even provides an excuse or a refuge ... but it isn't true. 

I would submit then that "religious mania" is just as disabling as an addiction.  Perhaps it is an addiction.  Better that your quest for spirituality should be directed toward finding hope and a stance (with respect to the world and your place in it) that is optimistic rather than toward finding "answers" within a worldview that is fatalistic.   Why is it so important to have answers anyway?  Certainly, they reduce uncertainty but isn't the uncertain and the unknown the province of hope (which is located squarely in a territory that we call "the divine")?  If we had perfect certainty and perfect knowledge what need would we have of hope.  When we fall, we know we have fallen.  Even if we possess an explanation as to why we fell,  we still need to have sufficient hope to get back up and try to walk on our own again.  We need empowerment not disempowerment.  We need perspective and a better outlook, not mania. 

You're finding some answers Emma don't stop looking now.  If you drive west from Toronto you come to some really big and scenic hills north of Sault St. Marie but if you end your trip there you never get to the Rockies.

Hi Emma:

You obvioulsy are intelligent, well educated and very well written. And I have the strong feeling that you were initiated into Christianity via a mystical experience, and that the experience was interpreted by you to be the confirmation of the absolute truthfulness of the doctrine of the particular faith you were initiated into. Hence your doctrinal fervor and your stance on religious mania, both of which are typical for people who have been mystically inititated and indoctrinated at the same time, with the inititation serving as the confirmation for the absolute truthfulness of the doctrine.

Mystical experience, however, is experienced by all kinds of people with all kinds of religious beliefs, and even by those with no belief at all. Mystical experience appears to be unrelated to doctrine. Although the mystical experience itself is true, the interpretations of the experience are chosen by the experiencer, and differ according to the interpertive framework of the experiencer and the nature of the experience.

To me, the OT and NT prophets, even Jesus himself, were mystics who interpreted their mystical experiences as "God having spoken to me." This is easy to understand, because this is how it felt to them, but the interpretations of their experiences were, nevertheless, coloured by their personal, interpretive framework and that of their culture.

I think God speaks to us most clearly in creation. The "Book of Nature" was written by God.

Yes, absolutely.  I quoted SK because it was so ironic that I read that paragraph around the very time of my recent faith-lift.  Mania, in any form, for any reason, is an addiction; it’s disabling, counterproductive and at times can be downright dangerous.

I agree with this wholeheartedly.  It’s better that I’m left wanting – whether spiritually or materially.  It keeps me working towards something; I grow, I learn, I evolve into something new and better.  I must say, though, I base my ultimate hope, trust and faith in God and believe completely that He will point me in the direction I need to go.  This might sound a little oxymoronish to some, but it makes perfect sense to me.

I have to leave for work in a few minutes, but I did want to share this.  I wrote it 15-20 years ago, but your comment instantly reminded me of it:

Unhearing Ears

I was bored and walking along the road one day.
I came to a swamp along which was a rocky lookout.
I climbed over and sat down
And lit a cigarette.
“My Lord” I queried, “I know You are here”.
As I continued to wonder,
as I am often apt to do,
where the voice would come from and what
it would sound like, I heard the sound of
a loon
in the distance.
Dusk was drawing hear, because I could hear
the crickets singing in the bullrushes.
“Lord,” I said.
“I wish You were here in a form
that could speak with me.”
Again, I listened but heard no reply.
I adjusted my position for the
sake of physical comfort,
and decided to stay
just a little while longer.
The toads burped their throaty calls,
while all around me shadows gathered
as if to swallow me whole.  A chill settled in the air.
“I wonder, Lord, if You were to show Yourself,
my mind simply couldn’t handle it.”
I contemplated this for a time.
“Because I think this is so, then I must also believe
that You will show Yourself when I am worthy of it.”
I felt that I had reached
a satisfactory mental conclusion so
I got up from my seat.
I stretched and looked out over
the swamp.
A whippoorwill chirped its
age old song.
Knowing that I would never hear
that voice,
nor look into
those eyes,
I stepped from the lookout,
onto the road,
and began to make my way home.
As I turned to go,
the eyes of the loon,
and too those of the whippoorwill
followed me.
And as my footsteps crunched on gravel,
I noticed the song of the toads, and
the chirp of the crickets
stood suspended
in time.
 

Welcome to WonderCafe, Emma. My hanging out here at WonderCafe has much to do with my needing a support group and I really appreciate WonderCafe for providing this support.

Thanks for starting this thread, Emma. I am finding it very helpful as I ponder what I will concentrate on today.

We are finally getting some rain, here in Saskatchewan, and things are looking up.

Beautifully evocative poem, Emma!

"They have mouths, but they speak not; eyes have they, but they see not; they have ears, but they hear not; noses have they, but they smell not;"

-Psalm 115:5,6

I too have felt that feeling of timelessness.  I like the image of the boots walking through something which essentially does not change.  We are just passing through ... but we are also part of that same something which goes on and on.