Ummm... Tom -

If you want any kind of scriptural basis for the practice of baptism by water and spirit, you might take a look at John 3.1-21.

Then again, since I don't believe that the physical act of baptism matters to God one iota, I don't know why I'm arguing this one.

Christ's peace - r

tomlane, fuddle duddle!

There is only one baptism that is really important, Tomlane, and that is the Spirit-baptism. On that much we are agreed.

The water-baptism is just a Spirit-baptism-sign. It carries no power to save. Being plunged into the water symbolizes death. Being brought out of it anew symbolizes new life following the Spirit-baptism. It is all merely symbol.

Typical fundie tactic - can't answer the questions put to him in one thread so he plasters the place with more of them that he won't answer in either. 

Following which, of course, the fundie will go offline and chortle about he, the "true believer" sure told those nasty, awful other folk a thing or two.

You stay focused on what you think is "God's Word" there Tom. As for me, I'll stick to the living Spirit (oh yeah, I forgot, you never did respond to that comment the last time I made it did ya?)

Tom - Acts 8: ²⁶Now an angel of the Lord said to Philip, "Go south to the road—the desert road—that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza." ²⁷So he started out, and on his way he met an Ethiopian^[d]eunuch, an important official in charge of all the treasury of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians. This man had gone to Jerusalem to worship, ²⁸and on his way home was sitting in his chariot reading the book of Isaiah the prophet. ²⁹The Spirit told Philip, "Go to that chariot and stay near it."

 ³⁰Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. "Do you understand what you are reading?" Philip asked.

 ³¹"How can I," he said, "unless someone explains it to me?" So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.

 ³²The eunuch was reading this passage of Scripture:
   "He was led like a sheep to the slaughter,
      and as a lamb before the shearer is silent,
      so he did not open his mouth.
 ³³In his humiliation he was deprived of justice.
      Who can speak of his descendants?
      For his life was taken from the earth."^[e]

 ³⁴The eunuch asked Philip, "Tell me, please, who is the prophet talking about, himself or someone else?" ³⁵Then Philip began with that very passage of Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus.

 ³⁶As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, "Look, here is water. Why shouldn't I be baptized?"^{[f] 38}And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him. ³⁹When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing. ⁴⁰Philip, however, appeared at Azotus and traveled about, preaching the gospel in all the towns until he reached Caesarea.

So, why didn't God smit him?  Why did God let Phillip baptize with water, and why did He allow it to be recorded without anything saying this was wrong?

ACts 10:⁴⁴While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. ⁴⁵The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. ⁴⁶For they heard them speaking in tongues^[b] and praising God.

   Then Peter said, ⁴⁷"Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have." ⁴⁸So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

Once again we have Peter - directly hearing from God and ordering that they be baptized with water.

So, did you really miss these and other things - such as Jesus commanding that the disciples baptize new disciples (Mt 28:19) or do you think they were performing spirit baptisms?  Can you baptize someone in the Spirit or is this an act of God?

So, I must assume this is one of your little tests to see which of us really reads their Bible, or is capable of performing a biblegateway.com search.  You couldn't possibly have missed all of this, or is Acts not in your Bible?  You are not the great and almighty teacher of the world.  Is this what you are trying to do here?  Sorry but a lot of us do have Bible knowledge, and a lot of them won't even bother responding to your posts, because they are here to converse with people about stuff.  What is your motive for being here?  It really seems as though you are trying to teach, not converse.  We don't need a teacher, we are not in school.

Charles T, please notice it says the Holy Spirit came upon the eunuch in verse 37 and not a thing was mentioned about the Holy Spirit dwelling in him. Also speaking in tongues was a sign for unbelievers and that is not being done today. 1 Corinthians 14:22 

There is an overlapping of dispensation in Acts. one is the Church coming into existence and God still dealing with Isreal as a nation with physical blessings and curses. In the church we find God is dealing with both Jews and Gentiles as a new creature in Christ on an individual basis. Then we find Acts the 15th chapter the Gentile is not put under the burden of the Law. That means no water baptism or ordinances of any kind. Only four things are required of the Gentile.

The Gentiles abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.  Read the whole chapter of Acts 15 Charles T as I do believe you need to study your bible more.

Then we read in Romans the 11th chapter about Isreal being set aside until the time of the Gentile. God stopped dealing with Israel and scattered the Jews among the nations after the temple was torn down. The bottom line being Israel with its law and ordinances have been set aside. We are not in a dispensation of Grace only.  Those those you who howl about using the word dispensation, then you will to tell Paul the Apostle he was wrong as well as he used the word dispensation four time.

Ephesians 2:14  ¶For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15  Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

In verse 18, God now tells us we have access to God through the spirit so that now proves we have spirit baptism.

Ephesians 2:18  For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19  Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

We both, is referring to both Jew and Gentile having access to the Father by one spirit, not water as that was a ceremonial baptism of repentance only, Jewish in nature and was foretold by Isaiah and as we know the one in the wilderness was John the baptist. By the way John being the only baptist in the bible.

John's water was only a Jewish, ceremonial baptism one of many that Israel had to observe.

Isaiah 40:3  ¶The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
4  Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:
5  And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

The bottom line being water was Jewish in nature and abolished and nailed to the cross in Ephs.2:14 -17 along with observing days and what a person eats. This all adding up to only having one baptism as God as stated in Eps 4:4 and God does this baptism and puts the Holy Spirit to dwell in the believer and not upon him or her.

Colossians 2:11  In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12  Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Charles T, maybe that will help you to rightly divide God's word and set you free from fleshly ordinances because now we worship God in spirit.

Philippians 3:3  For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Tomlane

Hi Tom.

I'm impressed with the comparison to the circumcision.

I agree the most important baptism it that of the heart, the living water is the baptism, this living water is the Holy Spirit.

The full emersion baptism is a testimony to this signifying that one accepts this baptism.

It may seem a bit ritualized, but for the most part it is harmless as long as it's not taken as a vehicle of salvation.

We as mankind have been known to always put our twist on everything regarding scocial behaviour.

Religion is very ritualised with precepts & ordinances from the old covenant.

I beleive that with the interpretation of men back itn those days were based of ritualistic pagan type of background & that spirit has always been a byproduct of mans natural tendencies toward religious action  of a worldly kind.

God had coverd the communication to man as best as man could receive revelation & understanding.

It was far from perfect.

The New testament is the first covenant, but Perfected in Christ,
Oh how wonderful it is to have a full understanding of this.

It ties all the previous communication with God & man on a covenantial basis, & it becomes the story of God's plan for each & every person who will have the breath of life.

Into a collective of a new kind, one collective that will be perfect peace.

Bolt

Wow Tom, I'm glad you decide to use those huge fonts and all that bolding. Gosh, we're all really impressed down here, I can tell You.

It makes what you have to say seem so much more.....

Grandiose.

(with apologies to Monty Python)

Well when I was baptized by the Spirit, God told me to make an outwardly testimony and get water baptized.
Matthew 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
Notice , Jesus said GO! To ALL NATIONS , that is a direct commandment

So much for you theory , I think you need to read your bible more and listen to the Spirit of God cuz your spirit is putting you in grave error

then again what do I know, im just a silly born again christian , with a relationship.

The Baptism of Jesus (Matthew 3:13-17)

13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John.  14 But John tried to deter him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?”

 15 Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.” Then John consented.

 16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him.  17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

It's in the bible, therefore it must be true...cms

Yes Tom - you answered me regarding your view of the Acts passages, but what of "The Great Commandment"?  Do you have the ability to baptize with the Spirit?  If not how do you take this command of Jesus?

Charles T. soon as time permits I'll make a study on the great commandment so we can compare notes on it. My position diffidently is not a popular one.

Tomlane

I've met lots of 'born again - baptised in the spirit' christians.  They usually seem to think that they have the only direct line to God.  The other thing that makes them interesting at first and boring later is there tendency to think that everyone who attends a different, or no, church is heading straight to hell (whatever they think that is). 

For me the important thing about baptism with water is to make sure that it is water that is used, not vinegar.

I like to think of myself as a "born again, spirit baptized believer" and almost hate those words because I have to agree with you kaythecurler, that is how most of us come across.  It saddens me greatly that many of those whose theology I agree with the most, seem to have the farthest hearts from that of Jesus.

I was recently listening to an audio copy of "The Irrisistible Revolution" by Shane Claiborne, and he recounts a meeting he had with, I think it was Crossan, either him or Spong, but I think Crossan.  Anyway, Crossan was so amazed by the way in which the people of the simple way were living out the kingdom of God here and now that he could barely believe they were Evangelicals.  He even said something about how they were living a social gospel that he himself would never have the guts to do.  I wish there were more people of the simple way, man this world would be a different place.

I'm disappointed that Tom didn't reply to my scriptural references from Matthew witnessing the baptism of Jesus.  If Christians aim to be Christ-like, doesn't it make sense to baptize?...cms

cjms, Christ fulfilled all righteousness.

Matthew 3:15  And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

The us is John being the mediator and Christ the one being baptized.  Later in Ephesians we find that the Law and it ordinances were nailed to the cross and the law of faith became the greater law.

Ephesians 2:14-15, For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15  Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Colossians 2:14-15  Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15  And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

We are told there is only one baptism and even John the Baptist realized he needed Christ's spiritual baptism.

Matthew 3:11  I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the ^{Holy Ghost}, and with fire:

Christ spiritual baptism is an operation done by God and not by man for with water baptism you need mediator to administer the baptism.

Ephesians 4:5  One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Colossians 2:12  Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Since Christ is the mediator between God and man we no longer have the second mediator who baptizes people.

1 Timothy 2:5  For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

There are other reason why water baptism is not for today and I only gave a partial list. I think this is enough to give you something to think about. Thanks for asking.

Tomlane

 15 Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.” Then John consented.

According to the story, it is something that Jesus wanted.  The different books that you reference don't belong together so let's simply look at these few verses in Matthew. 

Now I agree with you that baptism is certainly not needed however for very different reasons.  We celebrated the lives of 3 beautiful children as they started their journey of love within the community today.  They and their lives were held up in love.  Did any magic occur?  Absolutely not.  The water was a symbol of life.  A very beautiful moment for the community...cms

cjms, God is worshiped in spirit and not having any confidence in the flesh so I don't practice any fleshly ordinances that just pertained to Jewish believers. Thank God I'm not under any kind of laws except the law of faith and free of ritualism, symbolism and Judaism. 

Philippians 3:3  For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Romans 3:27  Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28  Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

I like God's way and not with man's philosophy.

Tomlane

I, otoh, have no interest in living life excluding people.  I find great wisdom in the philosophies put forward by many people from a variety of religions, schools of thought and science.  I am rewarded by the beauty and love that I find in community and challenged to find new ways to live in right relationship with my neighbours.  I find beauty in the symbolism inherent in the myths of the peoples of the world and often use it in my encounters and conversations with others.

I like the way of love, justice and compassion and hold those values (among others) as worthy...cms

I guess Philip should have consulted with Tom before performing that unbiblical water baptism

Witch and cjms:

Tom is a dispensational pre-millenialist he told Charles T. I googled to see what kind of animal that is. I had never heard of it before. I believe this link explains what he believes about  baptism. I haven't read all of the articles in it.

Dispensationalists have the easiest time turning down things you bring out of the Bible itself, because they can just say that it is in regard to a different dispensation - this is what Tom's response would likely be to the question, that I think Witch asked, about eating pork.  It would be the same for virtually any Old Testament law, it was a different dispensation and no longer appplies.

The funny thing about Tom here though is that he claims that there is a dispensational split in the middle of Acts, as far as I know this is yet another thing that he stands alone on.  I know of no Bible scholars who split it where he does.  There are some that split it in Acts, but usually with Pentecost being the major time frame.

I would assume Tom is splitting it in Acts 15 because then he can say that things like speaking in tongues, prophesy, baptism, etc . . . no longer apply and are of a different dispensation, but I will let him correct me on that if I am guessing wrong.

It is very hard to have a real discussion with a dispensationalist.  They are the most sure of themselves of any literal reading fundamentalist.  You also have to understand their particular brand of dispensationalism in order to see where they may just throw up the "dispensation" card.  The reason being that they do as Tom here and just close off that you are of the "carnal mind" and can't possibly understand.  You are spiritually blind and understand only the teachings of man, and we know that the wisdom of God is folly to the understandings of man ((a paraphrase of mine, don't feel like looking up the actual wording)).

Of course this is not true of all dispensationalists.  I have had very good discussions with some dispensationalists during my Bible College days.  It was extremely rare that any of them ever changed their mind on anything, but they were willing to discuss it and try to understand different points of view.  They left feeling they were right and possibly praying for me, but we left friends.  I usually left feeling I was right too, by the way.  I usually don't change my mind after these discussions either.  I know I may be wrong, but I don't think I am, otherwise, how could I say, "this is what I believe," if I think it is wrong?

Anyway, that's my morning rant.

Thank you for your "rant", Charles. It helps me to understand some conversations I had that I couldn't quite make heads-nor-tails of.

Christ's peace - r

The trouble with most "literal" dipensationalists, especially the ones who claim not to do any interpretation of the Bible (lol), is that they can never point to the place in the Bible which details the dispensational "split".

Actually some of them really do.  I disagree with the majority of it.  I say this because I do see after Jesus as being different than before Jesus.  Not as different as a dispensation intails, but when Jesus talks of old and new covenant.

The simplest breaks up the history of man into 3 dispensations, others break it up into upwards of 14 or so.  I think 7 was the most widely accepted version.  They used things such as the Mosaic Covenant,  the Abrahamic Covenant, the Levitical Laws, the birth of Jesus, the Resurrection, Pentecost, The Future Kingdom, The Tribulation, etc.  . . all to point to various dispensations.  Basically to say that God deals with man differently in each dispensation.  He can even use different means to bring people to salvation, such as animal sacrifice, obedience to the Law, and faith in Christ.

Anyway, I don't know if it would be worth starting a new thread on the topic or not, but I probably shouldn't just keep going off on the stuff here.

CharlesT : your quote:

Anyway, I don't know if it would be worth starting a new thread on the topic or not, but I probably shouldn't just keep going off on the stuff here.

I'm reading along with interest too. I gave bolt 2 links on the "Is Salvation by grace" thread and I suggested he may wish to post it as a topic. However, I think there's  perhaps not a lot more to be said about baptism  so its perfectly O.K. to discuss Tomlane's  further beliefs here.  I may not participate but I will be reading. I had never heard of it before. I'm green!

I posted  on the other thread  for people like myself who may not be familiar with it. I've no idea how accurate or truthful it is. I hope I haven't already posted this link here. I'm biting off more than I can chew ......

CharlesT

O.K. I'll add my seven cents worth not really knowing if I'm making sense or not. Its what I believe.

I don't believe Jesus will come back in the flesh again. Speaking of Jesus as the Christ....Christ has come! He/she/it is here!

Tomlane and bolt appear to place such great emphasis on "the spirit". Everything else is carnal (or the carnal mind of  man).  They believe we must get beyond the carnal. Yet, in order for the spiritual to be realized on earth they believe it is necessary to have "the living body of Jesus" on earth. They need the physical Jesus in the flesh to be here. I'm sorry but I don't quite understand their thinking?

Can someone help to  enlighten me?

Off topic- no need to discuss:

I know that some New Age  people believe in a number of what is known as" the Ascended Masters" ( Jesus among them)  who are able to manifest themselves  temporarily I believe in a body for a particular mission or purpose such as teaching. These are very very high holy spirits who have reincarnated many times with Jesus being one of them. I believe this is open to question. I don't give it a great deal of thought or credence. Its interesting.....

 Personally this has been one of my many pet peeve theological issues.  I will try to avoid the big words my wife says I use to much.  Lately, past hundred years or so, the church has put a huge emphasis on there being a separation between material and spiritual, I think it started a lot with the Enlightenment, but that is neither here nor there.  We today are living with the effects of it.

You see evangelism that focuses on saving men's souls.  Dwight Moody said something along the lines of, "I just want to get as many of them in the life boat as I can, worry about the rest later."  A large section of the church, particularly in the US, became obsessed with saving people from hell.  The result is a gospel that concerns itself with the spiritual state of men, and almost entirely forgets the outward transformation that the Kingdom of God is to produce.  Sure they talk about fruit and stuff, but even that is usually spiritualized into heart intents, and character transformation.

In my opinion the carnal mind, that Paul wrote about, is a state in which a person is predominately taking in nourishment from the physical, material world and not from God and His Kingdom.

I don't think that Jesus' physical reign plays too much into the thought process, other than that pre-millenialism seems to encourage people to see this split between the physical and the spiritual, material and immaterial.  I don't think it has to though, as I myself hold to a pre-millenial view and a physical return of Christ, what that looks like though, I don't know, but I doubt it will resemble the Left Behind series much at all.

This sounds a lot like many Hindu religions to me.  There are a number of them that see Krishna, Mohammed, Jesus, etc. . . as incarnations of the same god-being.  Some still hold to there being a number of god-beings that are incarnating, and not incarnating on earth.  So this is not to say that they see all these leading to the same god, they may not, but perhaps to the same divine realm.  So, I don't think you are too out there in your thoughts on this.  Most New Age stuff usually comes from some other source, sort of the great melting pot of religions.  I personally disagree with it, but you wouldn't be alone to think it.

Yes, I would agree with you here, Charles. The church should be concerned with meeting both spiritual and material people-needs. We who are concerned about the people-eternal-fate should be sharing the Jesus-Good-News. However, we should be also be filling the immediate communities-needs. Jesus, our template, cared for people in both ways. We must work to as well.

Now, you may ask me what actions I've done to match my words above (especially when it comes to meeting immediate physical needs). Sadly, the answer is not nearly enough. I really must change that. To do less is not to truly follow the Lord.

Thanks for your reply Charles T.

Good topic. I don't believe we've had it before.

GoldenRule, there you go breaking the rule that is your name.  Be nice.

Hi stardust & CharlesT

"Tomlane and bolt appear to place such great emphasis on "the spirit". Everything else is carnal (or the carnal mind of  man).  They believe we must get beyond the carnal. Yet, in order for the spiritual to be realized on earth they believe it is necessary to have "the living body of Jesus" on earth. They need the physical Jesus in the flesh to be here. I'm sorry but I don't quite understand their thinking?

Can someone help to  enlighten me?"

Well the best people to ask are thos mentioned LOL.

I however can't lay claim to enlightening you, only you can make such a claim as this, just don't let anyone else know it.

The way I see it & I cannot speak for Tom although I will back him in some of his claims. Because I see scripture in a way that is simular.

We the church represent the "body" of Christ, our actions here on earth, not our works, but our obedient action of the Spirit of God, this Spirit is what represents the "mind" of Christ to have ability of this body to carry on the work or action that was started during & after Jesus' ministry here.

The mind is where the spirit is, & with spiritual enlightenment, the things of God are revieled to the mind of the individual through this spiritual baptism.

That is why the full emersion baptism which was how it's described in scripture makes sense to me.

The whole of one's flesh is emersed in this living water that is the Spirit of God, this water is completely surrounding this flesh, taking on the Spirit as a total covering.

This represents the whole of the living water is far more substantial, For once we submerse, there is only one way to go from there & that is up, towards the heavens.

Once we come up from out of the Water, the Spirit of God, we are now a new creation. This represents a resurrection. That which was once dead now lives.

This is a ritual representation of a statement of faith.

This is what the gospel of Christ is.

This is how enlightement is obtained as far as I see it.

The full baptism of the Holy Spirit, the full gospel.

So we do this ritualistic behaviour, why Because in the bible it is referanceing jesus saying for us to be baptized. So we publically make this statement of faith, that's it.

Is it a counterfiet form of baptism? well only if those who do this ritual with that understanding.

I would hope that all would understand this spiritual baptism is done through relationship with God on the understanding that this was all done & ratified by the action of Christ's obedience, not through fear, or hopes of reward, but through the love that fulfilles all the laws of the prophets.

It represents the neccesity of the Spirit of God to do the teaching & enabling,

Let God be Who He is & that would be a Heavenly Father.

Let's take on the oportunity to be a child of God as well & enjoy it.

Bolt

Hi stardust & CharlesT

"Tomlane and bolt appear to place such great emphasis on "the spirit". Everything else is carnal (or the carnal mind of  man).  They believe we must get beyond the carnal. Yet, in order for the spiritual to be realized on earth they believe it is necessary to have "the living body of Jesus" on earth. They need the physical Jesus in the flesh to be here. I'm sorry but I don't quite understand their thinking?

Can someone help to  enlighten me?"

Well the best people to ask are thos mentioned LOL.

I however can't lay claim to enlightening you, only you can make such a claim as this, just don't let anyone else know it.

The way I see it & I cannot speak for Tom although I will back him in some of his claims. Because I see scripture in a way that is simular.

We the church represent the "body" of Christ, our actions here on earth, not our works, but our obedient action of the Spirit of God, this Spirit is what represents the "mind" of Christ to have ability of this body to carry on the work or action that was started during & after Jesus' ministry here.

The mind is where the spirit is, & with spiritual enlightenment, the things of God are revieled to the mind of the individual through this spiritual baptism.

That is why the full emersion baptism which was how it's described in scripture makes sense to me.

The whole of one's flesh is emersed in this living water that is the Spirit of God, this water is completely surrounding this flesh, taking on the Spirit as a total covering.

This represents the whole of the living water is far more substantial, For once we submerse, there is only one way to go from there & that is up, towards the heavens.

Once we come up from out of the Water, the Spirit of God, we are now a new creation. This represents a resurrection. That which was once dead now lives.

This is a ritual representation of a statement of faith.

This is what the gospel of Christ is.

This is how enlightement is obtained as far as I see it.

The full baptism of the Holy Spirit, the full gospel.

So we do this ritualistic behaviour, why Because in the bible it is referanceing Jesus saying for us to be baptized. So we publically make this statement of faith, that's it.

Is it a counterfiet form of baptism? well only if those who do this ritual with that understanding.

I would hope that all would understand this spiritual baptism is done through relationship with God on the understanding that this was all done & ratified by the action of Christ's obedience, not through fear, or hopes of reward, but through the love that fulfilles all the laws of the prophets.

It represents the neccesity of the Spirit of God to do the teaching & enabling,

Let God be Who He is & that would be a Heavenly Father.

Let's take on the oportunity to be a child of God as well & enjoy it while we can, before we grow up too fast.

Bolt

Bolt, sorry we don't see alike at all on salvation. You make salvation  a works by needing water for resurrection.  Salvation is about grace and not about what you do to earn eternal life.

If your doctrine were true, then only those who know enough to get wet would be saved. That my friend is a doctrine of the god of this world for salivation is freely given to all who just believe.

Romans 10:9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11  For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Nothing said there about getting wet. Nothing mentioned about salvation being a ritual, nor will you find it in God's word anywhere. Nothing is mentioned about those in the upper room being baptized first to have the Holy Ghost being given after being water baptized in Act 2 nor is water mentioned in Acts 2:47 when it describes Christ adding to the church for those who should be saved. No wonder you didn't give any scripture with your explanation of water baptism. Nor will you find water baptism mentioned in Acts 15 when it was shown the gentile was not under any kind of ordinance at all and if you will read the book of Hebrews you will find that after God set Israel aside as a nation and began dealing with both Jew and Gentile as  new creature in Christ because the middle wall of partition {the law} had been torn down.  I'll give you the verses to prove it.

These verses all prove what Christ has done for you and not what you have done other then believe.

Ephesians 2:13  But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14  ¶For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15  Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16  And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

You can't take credit it for any of it. Its all about heart attitude and belief and accepting. That is all you can do. Any time baptism is mentioned in connection with salvation is speaking about spiritual baptism because Christ only baptizes with fire and spirit only. The word baptism means to be put into and does not mean splash..

Here is more proof that salvation is a free gift.

Romans 5:15  But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Romans 5:16  And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Romans 5:18  Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Ephesians 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10  For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

We are saved all the way by grace, for it if we had to be water baptized it would no longer be of grace but of works. We either believe all the way or we don't . your doctrine says we don't we have to go under, that again a work of the flesh. That would also make God a liar when he says Christ only baptizes with fire and spirit for salvation. Also nowhere will you find where water and spiritual baptism are two parts of baptism. One is physical and the other is spiritual.

Philippians 3:3  For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

I sure hope that will help, Tomlane

Tom, I'm afraid you are completely misunderstanding me.

Are you reading the word "ritual" here?

It is not the fact one ritualizes it, that gives it power Tom, I know this.

The ritual itself is just a ritual.

The ritual of baptism is solely for public statement of faith.

The actual spiritual baptisim is what enlightens us.

The ritual is there as a collective statement of faith.

The actual Spiritual baptism is personal

Does this make sense to you now?

Bolt

Hi bolt

You describe baptism very nicely.

I was baptised Roman Catholic....lol...and you know what the Catholics say! Its the one true church! Uh...oh....too bad....I'm the only one going to heaven!

I don't know why Tomlane is making such a fuss . I sure can't see where baptism hurts anyone. A similiar rite called a  mitvah  bath- spelling not right - is used by the Jews. Its a method of purification.

I think Tom's beliefs bypass the Jews meaning these people don't want to be considered connected to the Jews in any way. Church services are patterned after the synagogue so that's probably why Tom can't go to church..... I don't know.....his religion makes a clean break with the Jews as I understand it. They split the NT into parts to get rid of them (before and after). There's a verse that says Paul kept all of the law. He practiced Judiasm.

Not that any of this bothers me or sure not enough to argue about it. The bible has been so messed up during  various translations and its believed  the Catholic church out of 100's of spiritual  writings picked and chose what would best keep it in power controlling the people and scaring them half to death. NT studies have shown that even Jesus may not have said all that is attributed to him. So....I don't read the bible literally or lie awake nights sweating over the meaning of a few verses. I ask God for mercy and forgiveness of my sins. That's the best I can do. 

P.S. I  think many Christians spend their whole lives arguing and fighting over the meanings of certain verses. Its what they do best. ....... I sometimes hear new Christians on the TV evangelists programs. They accept Jesus as their Saviour and they never sleep again. They go crazy....pulling their hair out... staying up for nights on end trying to understand the bible. 

bolt:

Some information on the mikvah just as a matter of information and interest:

Modern Jewish women are returning to the mikvah in this article.  The orthodox couples  abstain from sex for 2 weeks. There's an old book about this explaining how it gives the man in particular an opportunity to see his wife as being more than just a sex object...lol. I think its rather nice.

Quote:

At the Mayyim Hayyim mikvah center just outside of Boston, 36-year-old Rachel Cole steps out of a small pool that looks more like a Jacuzzi in a five-star spa than any traditional mikvah. After a lifelong struggle with anorexia, Cole emerges from the water with both a sigh and a smile.

"There was really a sense of sadness, and I was almost about to cry," Cole says. "I was kind of hoping for the past hurts and the bad stuff to be kind of washed away, and I went under, and that's what it felt like was happening. I just feel like God really met me in the water. And I felt like I can, from this moment on, live more freely and live with joy."

more on this link:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-mikvah_29jul29,0,2186833.story

For Leah Kahn, the ancient rite of immersion before her wedding marked a milestone in her relationship with her new husband, Darrell Cohn.

"You can get very caught up in the physical aspects of the wedding," said Kahn, 27, who married three days later in an Orthodox Jewish ceremony. "It was acknowledging what was happening on a soul level. [It put] a final spiritual stamp on my marriage."

It was also an important step in her spiritual journey. Raised by a Reform Jewish mother, she discovered Anshe Sholom's community and embraced modern orthodoxy during college. She met her groom, who also immersed himself in a mikvah before their wedding, at a Sabbath dinner.

Once underneath the surface, Kahn let the water cover the crown of her head, swirling her long tresses around her face. The first time she surfaced, she recited a blessing. As her mikvah attendant and a friend looked on, she went under again and again, losing count as she lost herself in the experience.

"I feel like I'm entering into something Jewish women have done for thousands of years," Kahn said. "I feel very blessed to have something in my life that comes from a place of holiness and spirituality and God . . . and knows what humans need at the time we need it."
 

I see baptism not as anything necessary for salvation, but as the New Testament outward symbol to the world as who is a disciple.  This is how the early believers identified themselves in a group.  They were made up of those who were baptized, both in water and spirit.

Thanks! that is some interesting stuff there stardust.

I would never doubt that there is something spiritually motivated by these rituals, & that in many way can work for or against us, depending on the understanding & motive for indulging in spiritual matters, & the intent behind the act of ritual.

Bolt

Sorry Bolt, still doesn't make sense. Please give some scripture that says we are to worship God with ritualiam or any of what you stated.

The reason I say this is found in two verses in scripture.

Romans 14:23  And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Romans 10:17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Bolt, I don't believe if we can't prove it from scripture a 100% then we shouldn't do it.

Tomlane

Who says it's an act of worship Tom?

I say it's an act, reflecting what is available to all, by the ones baptized in the spirit.

I beleive this is the intent behind Jesus saying go, & be baptized.

If Jesus can do this public display of His baptism, why is it wrong for us?

It is for man to see Tom, not an act of worship to God, for worship doesn't need to be a public display.

& God doesn't need a public ritual to know if one is baptized either.

Bolt

If our Lord found it necessary and then drequested that we go and do it seems like we are only folling His request.

Shalom

Mate

Here is Christ Himself commanding Christians to baptize. People cannot perform baptism of the spirit on other people, only God can do that. Therefore the only baptism that people can do, and thus the baptism that Christ commands Christians to do, is water baptism.

There it is, plain as day, no interpretation necessary. Christ Himself commands you to baptise. Right there in red letters on white paper.

So I guess Tom needs to decide whether it's OK with him for Christ to be speaking out of turn like that.

witch

Good point.

Shalom

Mate

 No doubt, there you go scripture that would suggest an opposed veiw of what you are using scripture to prove.

C'mon Tom. I know you mean well but you are just so old school that the Spirit isn't able to crack through your stiff necked veiw of biblical context.

bolt

When time permits I will put on here why water baptism is not for today and was never given to the gentiles in the church.

I'm sure it will fall on deaf ears, for you all go by what you want to believe whither God says it in his word or not. That been what I have observed from all of you so far. But then that is the way of false religions.

Tomlane

 No doubt, there you go, Tom, scripture that would suggest an opposed veiw of what you are using scripture to prove.

C'mon Tom. I know you mean well but you are just so old school that the Spirit isn't able to crack through your stiff necked veiw of biblical context.

It is all in the expression of the one doing the public display of faith.

If one believes that this act is what is the catalyst that starts the proccess of understanding ? Then this is an error.

But if one is expressing in public a symbolic act pertaining to the expression of enlightement dispenced by God to mankind, & has understanding of this Spiritual baptism as from the revelation of the gospel of Christ. & not from a public display?

I say Kudos to them who wish to honor God & obey His Son's instructions & go forth to all nations & baptize them in the name of all aspects of God.

All aspects that relate to mankind through this relational revelation in Christ.

Bolt

Oh so the Church has been wrong for its entire almost 2000 year history.  Too bad you weren't there to tell Paul and company this in the first place.

Do you actually think through what you are saying?  Or do you just figure you are wiser than everyone (ok mabe not 100% but well over 95%) who has walked the path of faith before you?

Mind you I find dispensationalism somewhat odd anyway. And in extreme forms I find it downright offensive and racist and supercessionist

Tomlane: your quote

When time permits I will put on here why water baptism is not for today and was never given to the gentiles in the church.

I'm sure it will fall on deaf ears... end of quote

Tomlane I'm listening and I'm interested because I never heard what you are saying before.

So...the verse:

Go ye therefore and teach all nations baptising them etc. applies to a different time period....or what is the meaning of it? It was given to the Jews, not the Gentiles?

I'm not laughing at you. I really want to know.

You should have told that to Paul he use the word dispensation four times. That naughty man!

Depending what church you are referring to for the last 2,000 years as Roman Catholicism is the most visible and largest of man's Christianity. Maybe you might learn something when I write that study up.

Tomlane