Just because I have never seen the Leaning Tower of Piazza doesn't mean it is imaginary. You may decide that spirituality doesn't exist, but that doesn't mean it isn't

Hmm.  That has nothing to do with this thread.  Do you have an explanation for my question above?

But, I'll address your comments:

I think you mean "the leaning tower of Piza".  You are quite correct, just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean that it is imaginary; but to know that it is real, all you have to do is go there and find out for yourself.  Or, you could save yourself a plane fare and simply look at the evidence for the existance of said tower.  It is a great conspiracy afterall, that the tower exists!

Good analogy!

What do you mean when you say spirituality?  Aren't you really just speaking about desirable human traits such as compassion, empathy, love, kindness etc - all things which are fully available to the theist and atheist alike?

 

I have experienced the spirit of evil and I have experienced (seen) personally the spirit of Christ. For me, I have been there, taken a picture and I am a witness to it. Therefore, I know that Christ, Satan and all spirits are very real, because I have seen and felt them with my eyes and body. Your premise is that we believe in imaginary beings. I cannot counter with anything useful since you do not believe that people have seen it and taken a picture and are witnesses to it.

Can you email me a JPG of your picture?  I'll still be skeptical mind you, because what with Photoshop nowadays, anything can be created. That's why photos are no longer permitted as evidence in court.

The picture is on my heart, in my soul. I don't expect a blind person to see. If you want to see it, you need to see with spiritual eyes, not your physical eyes

Star Stuff -

 

You wrote, "There is no ambiguity about that within christianity. "

 

I find myself constantly answering your questions with questions, which makes me feel quite silly. *grin* But... do you really believe that christianity is so narrowly defined?

 

Christ's peace - r

No they were not left out of the salvation plan, the answer to this question begins in the old testament and completed in the New , the prayer to this truth is found in the Apostles Creed , ,,,,,

　

suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried; he DECENDED INTO HELL ; the third day he rose again from the dead; he ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty;

There is a reason Jesus descended into hell first

　

　

Why is it you clam to have been a real Christian for 25 yrs and do not know the answer?. My only conclusion is that your claims are false .

　

　

　

　

I like this videos better and more fair

 

 

Christopher Hitchens Vs William Lane Craig

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYS1To9LyAY&feature=related

I am fully aware of the endless, mind-boggling grab-bag of beliefs within this forum, and possibly that is representative of the United Church - I don't know, but for you to assert that Jesus' death on the cross is something other than what I've suggested, then congratulations, you have created your own religion, based on your own interpretations and preferences.
 

 

I distrust those people who know so well what god wants them to do, because I notice that it always coincides with their own desires. (Susan B. Anthony)

　

very good argument, when you don’t agree or believe , just call him names, how highly intelligent of you .

i give you  for your evloved morals

Hi Star Struck -

 

Wild. I didn't realize that you got to define what beliefs are "Christian" and which aren't.

 

How does that work?

 

Christ's peace - r

Interesting.  And you know this to be true how?  I have to ask because that wild, fantastical, supernatural assertion is tantamount to hearing someone regurgitate something from "The Lord of the Rings" trilogy as though it were real!  Imagine how uncomfortable you would feel if you met someone on the street who really believed something like that to be a representation of reality!  You would sense that they are mentally ill.  Now understand how I feel.

And that reason (in this wild, crazy, fictional story) is.......?

　

　

Because I have not yet heard a satisfactory answer.

Which claims?  I'm not making any claims, all you theists are.  I simply don't accept them as they are vacuous of evidence and reason.  I am a rationalist.

I am open to hear an explanation for my opening post, but so far you have only regurgitated a fairy tale, and I dismiss it, just like you dismiss other crazy stories from other religious people.
 

http://www.godisimaginary.com/video7.htm
 

 

 

　

　

  

 

 

What names did I call him/her?

Sorry, I'm not going to play your "Nail the Jello to the Wall" game.  Been there, done that.

 

Ok. Have fun with that.

 

Christ's peace - r

i dont believe you been there, you didnt even know the answer to your own question , espicaly being there for 25 yrs,,,,

 

A BUSTED CON

 

LMAO

 

That's some fine detective work there, Lou.

Cuff 'm boys.

Star Stuff - as someone who considers himself quite orthodox, I would have to say, "YOU'RE RIGHT."  It can't be proven or explained to your satisfaction.

This is why I gave up on the notion of apologetics.  For if I could defend and explain every aspect of my Christian belief to you, then it leaves no room for faith or the interplay of the spirtual realm.

I can give you Bible verses that answer your question, better than the one given by Blackbelt, because that is not even an agreed upon answer amongst orthodox Christians.  Some early church fathers would have agreed with that, some would have other views, like he was preaching to the demons.  It is not clear cut.

But, back to the point, I digress.

I can explain to you why I have chosen to accept the Bible as the "word of God," but it would make little or no difference to you.  The fact of the matter is, if you choose to apply logical skepticism, there is no way to "prove" faith to you, or answer a question about it.

Faith is a belief in things unseen, or a belief in things hoped for, that we have gotten glimpses of.  How can I convince you of something I have faith in?

The original question was , what happened to the people before Christ, the bible answers it, the question was not one of faith belief,.

I wonder if you know the difference, I think not

　

You don’t have to hear it, you can read about it, unless of course , you lied about your 25 yrs faith witch seems more true than not.

　

　

　

Actual you did , here let me copy and past it for your review, off of your profile,,,,,,

　

About Me:

I was a christian for 25 years (yes, a real christian).

　

Your not batting 100 here star stuff , me thinks you lie

  

Great. Thanks for that.

 

True. But why do you regard faith (believing things for which there is no evidence) as virtuous or worthy of repect?

Bring 'em on. But please realize that quoting from the bible is is not reasoning. It is circular logic.  "It's true because it says it's true right inside!"
 

Who are these orthodox christians?  The fact of thousands of denominations display that people gravitate to groups that share their preconceived beliefs.

I find the following definitions of faith more accurate:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason. (Benjamin Franklin)

 

Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence. (Richard Dawkins)

 

Faith is believing what you know ain't so. (Mark Twain)

 

The notion that faith in Christ is to be rewarded by an eternity of bliss, while a dependence upon reason, observation, and experience merits everlasting pain, is too absurd for refutation, and can be relieved only by that unhappy mixture of insanity and ignorance called faith. (Robert Ingersoll)

 

Faith means the will to avoid knowing what is true. (Nietzsche)

 

Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel. (Ambrose Bierce)

 

A man full of faith is simply one who has lost the capacity for clear and realistic thought. (Henry Mencken)

"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing".  (Douglas Adams)  

OK, those who do not know baseball, are from this point forward prohibited from using baseball analogies.

Star Stuff;  Why do you care "Where this leaves the rest of us"?

 

Your an atheist, you don't give a shit anyways, all you spend your time doing is quoting people to discredit religion in general.

 

Please, go fume in a corner about how much you hate all of us, I however will continue to enjoy the presence of my atheist friends who aren't douchébags.

 

As-salaamu alaikum, ramadan mubarak

-Omni

I get the impression that star stuff doesn't actually want any answers, he just wants to be combative. I'm not sure what he needs to prove but it feels very vain to me. He's already demonstrated that when anything is said he disagrees with he'll just say it's imaginary or made up. The "questions" are just an excuse to beligerently go after anyone who disagrees with him. It's a shame because as Blackbelt started to legitimate answers are available (but clearly unwelcome).

Star Stuff,

 

May I ask what was it that kept you going to church for 25 years?  And what was the turning point(s) that made you become an atheist?

 

 

 

When you define your faith in wishy-washy terms, you can't act surprised when others conclude you made up your answer.  blackbelt isn't interested in legitimate answers, and I doubt he has them.  He just has more biblical references, which are examples of the circular reasoning in the image above.

 

blackbelt is now more interested in proving that Star Stuff was never a Christian.  blackbelt is probably batting closer to 100 than he knows.

 

Star Stuff,

 

Expecting all Christians to adhere to the fundamentalist version of the faith is either ignorance or disrespect. The so-called literalist interpretation of the bible isn't the only way to approach the faith and it isn't even the most traditional one. The liberal approach to scripture put forward by Rev. Bott is at least as old as, maybe older than, modern (and it is a modern movement) fundamentalism. When you dismiss liberal Christians who interpret the Bible in non-literal way as "wishy-washy", you're not only demeaning a very legitimate set of beliefs and insulting their followers, you're also showing that you are either ignorant or as doctrinaire as the fundamentalists you're attacking. You and Rev. Bott should be on the same side in this debate. Instead, by taking your hardline stance that only fundamentalists are Christians and that anyone who calls themselves a Christian must defend that position, you are aligning yourself with the fundamentalists.

 

This spoken as a UU who left Christianity, but still respects and supports the efforts of liberal Christians to undo the damage being done to their faith by fundamentalism.

 

Mendalla

 

Mendalla said:

 

"Instead, by taking your hardline stance that only fundamentalists are Christians and that anyone who calls themselves a Christian must defend that position, you are aligning yourself with the fundamentalists"

 

That makes a lot of sense to me. 

 

TL

I'm not sure what you mean here, but I'll take a stab at it.  I care because I share the planet with you, and the less delusional you are, the better it is for everyone.

Please watch:
 

 

Yes, I'm an atheist, but I actually care (or, "give a shit" as you so poetically put it) about what is true more than yourself.  Not to pat myself on the back, but I had the courage and intellectual honesty to place my christian beliefs under scrutiny.  They failed; and it was not easy or comfortable to peel myself away from the comfort of the church.  We are a social creature and that sense of belonging and community is a powerful draw.  Unfortunately the beliefs of that particular community were, and are untenable for me, and would be for you if you had the guts to be honest with yourself about the security blanket which you tenaciously clutch.

 

 
Where did you dream that one up?  I do indeed dislike intellectual dishonesty, cowardice, lies, baseless assertions, wild claims void of evidence, and the cock-sure smarmyness that most christians are so drenched in that they're unaware of it.  Why do you feel that all that should be free from criticism?

 

Hmm, is that some of those "fruits of the spirit" coming through?  So, you haven't even met me, and you are concluding that you know what I'm like.  Would you feel comfortable if I did the same towards you?

 

 

 

StarStuff, 

 

In that case, have you ever considered Unitarian Universalism?  Agnostics and atheists are among the folks you would encounter in a UU congregation.  I am not a UU myself, but I have explored their tradition and respect it greatly.

I'd like an answer to my O/P, but am not getting any.  Instead of admitting that you don't have any coherent answer, you lauch an ad hominem attack.  Beauty.  Thanks for showing us your level of honesty.

 

 
You are free to "feel" what you like, but please don't call me vain just because you can't provide any logical answers to my question; otherwise, it is you who winds-up appearing vain.

 

 
Please give examples.  It's not my disagreement that deems supernatural claims imaginary or made up, it is their own lack of evidence or reason.

 

 
I have asked one simple question.  Your failure to provide a coherent answer, and then have the audacity to turn the table around and call me beligerent is quite telling of your level of honesty.  Why not have the decency to say: "Good question; I never thought about that before, that is odd isn't it?"

Whassat???  I'm all ears to your legitimate answers. Let's have 'em.  But vomiting some rediculous, wild, fantastical claim that your hero figure flew down to pits of hell in order to save that vast majority who didn't have the benefit of hearing the Jebus story, is frankly, a shocking display of a mental illness.

Sure thing.  This will be brief, but basically, like most christians, I was born & raised in it.  It was in my mid-twenties that I placed those beliefs under scrutiny.  As they did not, and do not map onto reality in any way, shape or form, and being a person who cares more about what is true rather than what is comforting, familiar or popular, I jettisoned those beliefs.  It was not an overnight thing either.  It was over a course of a year or two that I withdrew from church and the beliefs altogether.  In the last 23 years, that choice has been the best thing I ever did.  I feel like I am now sober rather than drunk in the intoxicating delusions of supernatural beliefs, and my convictions have been affirmed in ways I can't explain, especiall in the last few years with the explosion of debate and reasoning on the internet, and the books on the subject - both of which didn't exist 20+ years ago.

I know most christians would prefer to hear that I was hurt or let down in some way by the church, but that is not the case.  It was a great social outlet.  You might also prefer to think that I abandoned it all in a preference for a self-serving (or "sinfull") lifestyle; but that too is not the case.  In fact, I live as much if not more a moral life as I did before.  I have no interest in drugs, excessive drinking, or any other negative, counter-productive behaviour.  I am happily married to the sweetest woman on the planet (ok, I'm biased, but it's true), and have many interests and hobbies, and am physically fitter than most 20 year olds (I'm approaching 48).  I donate in my business to charities, help elderly neighbors, sponsor a child in Peru, etc etc.
 

One thing I find repulsive, smug and arrogant is the continued claim of a moral high-ground by the religious.  I'm reminded of this quote:

If someone were to prove to me, right this minute, that god, in all his luminousness, exists, it wouldn't change a single aspect of my behavior. (Luis Bunuel)

Anyway, that is a very short version of my story.  I hope it helps you to understand a little about me.  Thanks for asking.

Oh, here's a little joke:
 

A pastor was walking along the street one day and he came across a little boy with a box of kittens. He peered into the box, and said, "Son, those are the cutest little kitties I have ever seen. What kind are they?"

"These are Christian kittens," the little boy replied.

The pastor chuckled and went on his way.

A week later, he found himself on the same street when he saw the same little boy with the same box of kittens. He said, "How are your christian kittens today?"

The boy replied, "Um, err, these are atheist kittens."

He looked shocked, and asked the boy, "What do you mean, atheist kittens? Last week you told me these kittens were Christian!"

"They were," replied the boy. "But now their eyes are open."
 

I've been reading this thread with interest.  As I pointed out on another thread I always find these types of debates between Christians and Atheists interesting.

 

You know, what I find most interesting is that I can't say "Good question; I never thought about that before, that is odd isn't it?"
 

The reason I can't say this is because I have thought about your question before.  And I've looked for answers and I've contemplated.  Do I have an answer to your original question?  Not one that would satisfy you so I won't take the time to post.  However, please don't assume that as Christians we don't have questions.  We question, we struggle, we ponder.  It is part of the journey and I quite enjoy it. 

 

When you add your thoughts and ideas respectfully to these threads, you are contributing to my faith journey  and I thank you for that.  However, whether intentionally or unintentionally, sometimes you hurt me with your comments that believers may be delusional.  I don't believe that to be true.  We are not delusional but rather just have a different viewpoint from your own.  You have different ideas, beliefs and experiences and I respect that.  Could you please respect others for their different ideas, beliefs and experiences as well?

 

 

Hi, Star Stuff -

 

You wrote, "One thing I find repulsive, smug and arrogant is the continued claim of a moral high-ground by the religious."

 

By all religious?

 

Christ's peace - r

 

StarStuff, 

 

How have you determined what "most Christians" would prefer to hear?  Just wondering.

 

It seems that moving away from your community of faith involved some loss for you.  Hence my inquiry about Unitarian Universalism. 

 

Crap argument. I could turn it around on you. I share this planet with you, and the more faith you have, the better it is for everyone.

How is it that you decide that I will reject your answer before you even offer it?  Does that sound reasonable?  Please provide your answers; if they don't stand rational inquiry, then they don't, but please offer them, and give me a chance to consider them before concluding my stance.

 

I do not assume that all christians don't question (but my experience is that very few do), but it is what is done with those questions that I find dishonest.  In other words, if your stance is that you will maintain your supernatural belief system no matter what, then what level of honesty or questioning is that?  In what other area of inquiry do you employ that approach?

This brings us to the problem we are really dealing with here, and that is "INVESTMENT".  Most christians are so incredibly invested in their beiliefs, that it is impenetrable to reason.  One would have to say to friends, family, children, bowling team, etc, etc, "You know what, I've come to the realization that the beliefs which I have embraced for the last (X) number of years is not true."  Very few have the courage or intellectual honesty to do that.
 

Those who take refuge behind theological barbed wire fences, quite often wish they could have more freedom of thought, but fear the change to the great ocean of scientific truth as they would a cold bath plunge. (Luther Burbank)

 

Delusion:  a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact.

I'm sorry, but it is a delusion.

a)  I don't have any "beliefs".

b)  Respect is given to those things (beliefs/assertions) that are worthy of respect.  Do you respect holocaust deniers?
 

I offered this once before, but perhaps it was in a different thread:

 

 

Cheers.

 

 

 

I haven't met all the religious people on the planet, but yes, all of the ones I have met.

StarStuff, 

 

Working in the mental health field, I have observed the interesting phenomenon of religious delusions.  You can be assured that all religious beliefs do not meet the criteria to be classified as "delusions".  Psychiatrically speaking, that is.

 

By the fact that 99.99% of the time I engage in dialogue with someone of faith, that is the response I get.

Thanks for that caveat, Star Stuff.

 

Christ's peace - r

 

Perhaps not all, in the clinical sense, but as we are speaking about christianity here, consider the following:
 

Again, Star Stuff -

 

Why do you get to define what Christianity is?

 

Christ's peace - r

Ick, StarStuff  . 

 

So, what about Unitarian Universalism?  You haven't responded to my comments re: UUism yet.

Star Stuff, you and I are not so different from one another.  I'm more or less atheist, have a constructive lifestyle, happy family, hobbies, etc.  Even down to the foster child in the third world (we have two, actually).

 

But what I don't do is ask people to justify their spiritual beliefs to me.  What for?  What impact does someone holding liberal Christian beliefs have on my or your day-to-day life?  Or even less than liberal Christian beliefs? 

 

Of course, when you have evangelists insisting on prayer in schools, promotion of their religion in public or through the state or silencing the discoveries of science, as some extreme fundamentalist sects would like to do, there is need for objection.  But I think you would find most of the people on this site have no interest in promoting any of that.

 

I grew up in the UCC.  I still have great respect for that institution, even though I am not a believer.  I don't imagine for a moment that I have the right to demand others give up their beliefs or justify them to me - that would be incredibly arrogant. 

Star stuff:

And exactly how are we to consider what you have posted? That if we are to consider ourselves Christians that we are required to believe the drivel you have posted (especially considering that it isn't even written by a Christian?). If I were to substitute "Star stuff believes" for the word "Christianity" in your example, would that make it true, regardless of how much you protest?  In brief, you do not have the right to define what others believe (especially when a great number of them on this site, and in the UCC in general, don't agree with your definition). That is a right you only have for what you believe yourself.

 

*must go out for a couple hours, back later.

spiritbear, there is nothing inconsistent between the "drivel" StarStuff posted, and the core beliefs of Christianity.  Sure, the verbage is different, but the "drivel" in the image is the same as the "drivel" in the bible.

 

Okay, see ya' later.

Obviously , Star Dust , has never received the spirit , so he is spiritually dead and blinded, given that I can understand his unbelief, one must be born of water and Spirit to see the kingdom of God.

What I believe bothers most here , is the way he delivers his message, he is ignorant and offensive .