Bump

I have the same problem and I either change the prayer in my mind and say it inwardly or I don't say it at all.

Even the Lord's prayer I do not say it exactly as is. I say something like this:

Dear Father in Heaven

You are so Holy

I pray for things to be on earth as they are with You

Thank you for providing for me

Thank you for forgiving me more than I am able to forgive others

Thankyou for not leading us not into temptation

Thankyou for delivering us from evil.

Yours is the kingdom of glory forever

Amen

When I could not say the prayers with integrity I simply didn't respond.  It got to a point before I switched churches that I neither participated in the responsive prayers or sang the hymns...cms

We don't tend to have many responsive prayers in my church. When I've visited other churches, I've been a bit uncomfortable on a few occasions. If I can't say the words whole-heartedly and truly believe in what I am saying, then I choose not to say it.

So it sounds from the responses so far that you can maintain your personal integrity by chosing not to say the prayers but remain with your church family through the service.  For you Ministers and Lay Preachers out there, how do you feel about this? 

This is so beautiful - thank you.

I either don't say words, or, more commonly, simply change them on the fly.  It's a skill I have practiced over many years - I started doing it when I was a young kid.  Gender language is easy to change, whole theological viewpoints less so.

That said, I can't really do that while leading worship.  I have more control over the wording in the first place, of course, but not as much as you might suppose :)  When I DO change words, I will inevitably hear someone sticking to the old words, and that is just fine by me.  I have no problem at all with people not saying parts of the service, or altering them.

Some minister collegues and myself at a meeting were having the same conversation about the Apostle's creed. There were a few who said they went "mumble, mumble, mumble"It is a tough thing. Do we not say the words? Do we lose our place at the appropriate spots? Are we jamming out and should we be having these conversations at Worship Ctte Mttgs. But then that  opens a whole other kettle of fish. Some would have no idea why we are uncomfortable and their comfort food would be gone.

I don't really know what to do and these days I tend to disagree with a lot.  Not sure if my faith is on the verge of changing or if I am just in a mood.  For somethings I just go inside myself and enjoy the silence of a few moments with God allowing the sound of the many voices or just one proclaiming their faith to wash over me without any particular attention to the words.  I especially like doing that with the Lord's Prayer - usually sung in our church, although I have found I can also sing the words again paying more attention to the feeling and the reaching out to God than to the actual words.

What do I do if I don't agree with a prayer in church?

I don't pray it.

Hi Elisabeth,

Respectfully usually works.

That would be up to you.  A parrot mimics and does not have the capacity to use words or comprehend what is behind them.  I imagine you do.  At the same time a parrot has its own inherent form of communication which you and I might be able to mimic but we would likely never understand it.

Words repeated are not automatically empty or devoid of meaning, truth or light.

Integrity is always important.  While you may not be able to say the words with integrity I don't know if that prohibits others from doing so.

If you cannot say the words do not say them.  Understand that not saying them is your choice and that those who chose to say them have made their choice.  It might even be true that the prayer you are most comfortable with others cannot say with integrity.

It is a tough spot to be in.

Unity and uniformity are sometimes miles and miles apart.

Grace and peace to you.

John

I think it would depend on how strongly I feel about what is being said. If I really don't agree, I wouldn't say it.  If I sort of do but not really, I might say different words or I might vocally say the words but in my head be thinking and saying something more compatible for me.  I can't honestly say that I really remember coming across something that I disagreed with strongly enough to not say the words - since I switched to UCC that is.  On the other hand, me and RC didn't get along very well at all.

In the past I have changed the language just for myself, and I have avoided participating completely.  I have also approached the leaders and invited them to consider changing the language (mainly around gender), which hasn't always been welcomed or appreciated.  And I've done things that perhaps may have been somewhat provocative (like being asked to reading Scripture passages and exchanging the male pronoun with the feminine - but never in a formal setting, mostly just in small group studies for example). 

I think that we do have to be the change we want to see in the world (I'm borrowing that from Gandhi, I think it is).

If saying the prayers is really impossible than clearly the setting is not spiritually nourishing to you at this time!  If you are bending your brain over backwards just to be able to stay in the pew, why why why do it at all??  Take a break, walk away for a time.  You might find yourself able to forgive and participate at a later date... or not.

One thing that helps me tremendously with this is to remind myself that the prayers were created by very faulty humans (at our worst, we are not a very gracious species!!!).  The prayers and the Scriptures may be inspired by God, but they were NOT written by God... and that's a huge difference!

I second Arminius' stance.

Beyond that, I'd probably consider why I don't agree with it.

As-Salaamu Alaikum

-Omni

For you Ministers and Lay Preachers out there, how do you feel about this? 

You as a lay person struggle with the wording of the liturgy.  Imagine being the person preparing the liturgy thinking about individuals like you struggling with them and the other people who want them.

Welcome to my world.  In a church the values diversity instead of conformity I'm finding that I have my liturgical work cut out for me and at the end of the day I know someone will be displeased with something.

I have had to stop being anxious about this and do the best I can just as you need to do what you need to do to maintain your integrity.

 2nd try to comment :) - darn family demands!

Short version of my eloquent thoughts:  if the minister is supportive, why not try together to work on a worship service, so you can both explore language & meaning & ritual, and even maybe get your Borg group to work on it as a team.  I think learning purpose for worship elements adds to our understanding of them, and also, the minister can hear how you (and the group maybe) respond to language & ideas, and want to see them shared.  It might bring up a good learning opportunity in a friendly engaging way for him as much as anyone else. 

I guess I take the weenie way out.  I blank the mind and go through the motions, all the time wondering why?  Then I realize that in order to make change, I HAVE to remain part of the flock, even if near the edge, but part never the less.  To lose contact is to lose your ability to influence.

This Sunday a WonderCafe.

End of the month, muffins and coffee BEFORE service.

And, no one died when we started with coffee in the sanctuary.

So I mouth the words so I can make the change.

IT

Russ

Hi Russ:

I, for instance, have no problem praying: "The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want," because the "Lord," to me, is not some white-bearded patriarch who runs the universe, and before whom we have to grovel, but the self-transcendent cosmic totality of which I am an inseparable and co-creative part. And indeed I shall not want, because IT provides me with everything.

To me, traditional language is so obviously metaphorical that it does not trouble me one bit, and I even use it. Those who take it more literal than I don't trouble me, either, unless they force their literal interpretations on me, in which case I decline politely but firmly.

(But they don't dare try to convince me, because I sound much more convincing than they, and they can't match the power of my words.  )    

I tend to not like what I consider "canned prayers".  I tend to think about something else when the minister is praying.

Yesterday I was at a funeral and the woman minister used non inclusive words when one coulduse inclusive words - so I changed the word that bothered me -

As Merredth said it is a tough job writing liturgy with all those literalists out there - especially the liberal fact fundamentalists.

It is fine not to say the words that bother and as John says there is a respectful way of opting out of the words.  However some things are metaphorical and can be said as metaphorical  like Lord -

The apostle creed is a historic document and I can say it because of that - it is not my theology but I know what it is trying to say.  I normally don't use it worship but there might be a time for it.  Just as I did with a service on hymns and walked people through how they have changed in wording because of new understandings.  Even more voices can be a problem but when it is understood metaphorically it can work - why is it we can repeat or sing things in secular contexts or secular music without being a literalists yet when comes to liturgy we fall back into literalism?  That is our response is one of that.

Hi Pan: The apostle creed is not my cup of tea, either, but I love the Song of Faith. We recited some of it when I was officially admitted into the UC a year ago.

We are fortunate to have one of the composers of the Song of Faith, your near-namesake Panentheist, here on wondercafe.

A Methodist man was visiting a Unitarian-Universal church.  During the coffee social, a church member asked the visitor what he thought of the service.  The visitor said that he only agreed with about half of what the minister said.  The church member told the visitor that was great, and that he will fit right in.

I guess its been said above but I will give my response:

I am generally in essential agreement with the prayers in my church - which uses inclusive language.  So I read along with the others.  Although I presonally prefer to use non-sexist pronouns, I say "Our Father" at the beginning of the prayer.  I prefer forgiving Debts to Trespasses (like the Presbyterians do) but I follow along with the UCC tradition.  One minister did try substituting a different up-to-date paraphrase of the Lord's prayer each week, but I think there is some value in knowing that people everywhere are praying the same prayer - and I like to keep my eyes closed as I pray it rather than reading it from a bulletin.

The Apostle's creed - a historic document.  Something that I see in symbolic language - I can recite it honestly because I am in essential agreement - not with the words but with the idea.  I love the new Song of Faith and would like to hear it used more often.

When there is something that I truly do not agree with - I generally remain silent.  At a church where I was guest minister the music person, after agreeing with some of my hymn suggestions, asked if we could have something lively.  What would she suggest?   "The Battlehymn of the Republic".   I placed it as far away from my message on Peace as I could - and since I don't sing well and don't always sing all the hymns I was able to sit through that one.

My meeting's service involves no minister, each person standing on their own as they feel led by the Light. This avoidence of objectable content, fake unity, and meaninglessness appeals to me.

However, I met a Unitarian minister while visiting who, by some insight of his own or on someone's advice, put a sort of disclaimer before prewritten content saying "I say she because it is what I'm most comfortable with but feel free to use whatever term fits for you. Know that however we represent the concept it is the same Spirit that we are referring to." I think its important that the church does come to a common understanding instead of creating a false face of unity through singing the same songs.

Its out of place, but I have this same issue even more so with Rememberance Day activities when a vetren will stand before the entire school and attempt to convince us of a fake history of Candian warfare, refusing to agnoledge any mistakes and painting the motives of every soldier as above saintly. Despite my respect for our soldiers, it burns me to remain silent for a minute giving respect to these lies, a prayer in its own form. Anyone else have this problem or a solution?

Hi Seeler,  

Yes, that is how I feel about the Apostle's Creed, too.  I am very fond of our New Creed, and I think it has stood the test of time very well.

The Song of Faith doesn't do much for me, but maybe I need to study it more carefully.  It seems long and unwieldy to me.  Has there been a discussion about it here on wondercafe?

I have never been in a church that uses Song of Faith  so it would be  good to have a thread about it.

I personally like The New Creed

Hi Crazyheart, 

We went through the Song of Faith, reciting a section of it week by week, but we have not used it for study or reflection.  Maybe someone who is keen on it would like to start a thread about it.

Me too.  My favorite part of it is "we are not alone"

Me too, Punkins. Such a great and important thing for us to remember.

Our bulletin generally has a statement giving permission to people to change the words they use, for some reason it wasn't in the last one, but it goes something like... with God being beyond gender, feel feel to change the words....

I use "our Creator" instead of "our Father" in the Lord's Prayer...the rhythm works.

If a prayer offends I just quit saying it but I do listen and do my best to think positively,. exmaple would be to think of someone I know who would love those words and think of something we have in common.   For me,the strength of the united church is its diversity and so I try to remember that when it happens.

If it just is awkward, uncomfortable then I try to say it and reflect on what is causing me the grief.  Is there any other way of looking at the text.  Thanks RevJohn who has done a bunch at helping me in this area through his explanations of items.  It isn't where I am at, but I can appreciate that others are there.  Again, speaks to diversity as there are many areas where we do agree.

At the same time I do need to be fed and feel that I can worship too.  At times when there were ministers on supply who did NOT practise inclusive language at all and used other words I tended to do a lot of church school work, or just not come to church.  In those cases it was ministers who were not interested in dialogue...and so, easier for me to just do other work.

I usually say,

"Our Buddy ... Harold be thy name ... "etc.

I know Harold loves it that I consider him my buddy.

When they start making a prayer I don't agree with I just get up noisily and all huffy and stomp out of church.  If I can find one, I try to kick over a chair.  I try to do this before the collection.  Then I spend the money I saved from the offering on beer.

lol, no you don't.

though, i may consider putting one in the balcony just to see what a chair flying down would look like....hmm..let me make that an inflatable one!

querty - I haven't seen you around for awhile.  I thought maybe you had disappeared into the black hole of cyberspace.  I'd love to be in your church one day when you disagree with something - especially if it is something I disagree with too.  ha ha

One Sunday in my church a woman didn't sing one of the versus of the last hymn.  Afterwards a member of the choir approached her and asked why and she told him she didn't like the theology.

So if you don't participate it probably will be noticed by someone and maybe even commented on.  Gotta love it. 

Meredith

"to thine own self be true"

The non-singer had more guts than I would have had.

IT

Russ

ROTFLMAO

I would like to see this.  Last year I was lucky.  I did not have to sing or talk because I got a tonsillectomy.  So people after Church would be like "your throat/tonsils/whatever is still sore right" and I would say "yup.

But qwerty, you look so suave and sophisticated sitting up in the balcony. Your exit would make headlines.

 meredith!  wow!  I'm amazed that someone asked that, unless -were they friends?

I find Christmas time to be the hardest - all the usual carols that we all want to hear, and then you get to "Round yon Virgin" and so on - every carol has something hard to take.  And from my persepective, every carol has something I'd like to banish in case someone new comes for their yearly kick at the church can, and leaves thinking we all believe that.

In the previous church where I was a member during a confirmation service the minister was indicated that as well as the confirmands, anyone that wished to reaffirm their faith and stand.  Most of the congregation stood.  It was also made clear that you did NOT have to stand and that was fine too. At that point I could affirm my membership as I knew that I was leaving the church and not sure if I would be able to return in another church.  Luckily I was able to do so and a year later joined another community...cms

cms..that would be tough.

birthstone..i totally agree re the carols.  people want to sing them, but the theology makes me cringe on christmas eve when we have sooo many people who come for them,but leave thinking we are still there...and their kids go ...yuck.

The minister meant it when he said that we didn't have to stand but you are correct that in a congregation of 250+ and most standing, it "stood out" if you chose not to.  No one asked me about though and after being a member for 35+ years, that was the tough part.  And you'd be surprised how many of those same people don't realize that I'm no longer a member! 

birthstone..i totally agree re the carols.  people want to sing them, but the theology makes me cringe on christmas eve when we have sooo many people who come for them,but leave thinking we are still there...and their kids go ...yuck.

[/quote]

At Westhill the carols are rewritten in inclusive language.  We do the opposite - at the beginning of the service people were told that if they wanted to, they could sing the words with which they were familiar...cms

Hi Qwerty,

Big talk from a guy who drives a car that gets stuck in pocket lint.

Welcome Back.

Grace and peace to you.

John

neat idea - letting people know that the words are old & familiar & not particularly appropriate, - but letting them sing the old way if they want.   Now that makes a statement!

 lol qwerty!  

Now, I do know a couple of people who have stormed out, or at least visibly seethed during inappropriate passages & prayers. The question is does anything change, aside from the gossip mill?  

I remember a Time with Chiuldren, when a minister was talking to about 20 kids. he said "Who has been baptised?" About 10 hands went up.  He, then, continued to say ,"How special they were, How God loved them etc." I Remember clearly the look on the other 10 faces - sad, excluded. I spoke to him at the first opportunity. he had NO idea what my concerns were. So, yes, the theology we teach to our kids, to newcomers, in the form of carols,language, prayers has a big impact.

 Yikes!!! Brave Crazyheart for speaking right up.  

My dad is in the church choir and my mom is the organist in a small Methodist country church.  My dad strongly dislikes the minister -- after he finishes singing the choir song, he walks out and goes home.  My mom stays for the rest of the service to play the organ and then goes home in a separate car.

My dad says that it is the congregation's church, it doesn't belong to the minister; and the minister is not going to push him out of his church.

Yes and of course I overheard the conversation and worried about the choice of hymn.  Like I said I had to let go of that.  The two people in question are work closely together on the worship committee so the person wasn't bothered about being asked.  However I'm of the opinion that it's important to give people "space" to participate or not on their own terms.  Some people are very anxious about whether or not members are happy with everything and have difficulty leaving things alone.

 Q.  Why to Unitarians read ahead in the hymnal?

A.  So they know whether they agree with the next line.