No, that would be open-minded of you.

What is considered heresy or what is considered sacred exist only in the mind of the observer. My advice is to read widely, consider carefully and always be skeptical.

Always good advice.

Actually I'd say thzt sacred or heretical is a decision of the community of faith, not the individual observer.

Darrel Tessier,

Learn to be able to laugh -- especially at one's self :3  Life is too serious to be serious.

Hi Darrel Tessier,

I don't think Teilhard de Chardin was ever branded a heretic.  I think he came as close to being tried as one several times.  He was removed from a teaching position in France and was given the option to recant  some teaching or be evicted from the Jesuit order.  He recanted.

In 1962 a reprimand of all his works was issued by the Congregation For The Doctrine Of The Faith.

A Roman Catholic playing with the Cosmic Christ is playing with fire.

The United Church of Canada has no position, pro or con, with respect to the Cosmic Christ that I am aware of.

Yes you can.  I think the traditional Christian perspective on such writings is that they can be read for edification/inspiration but not for doctrine.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Does the bible say question all things? It's in there though some theologians would deny it as a loss of their personal control of interpretation ...

An open heart and mind is preferred but one must be cautious in a hostile place ... thus heiros gamma ... the hidden meaning revealed by profundity in the whole pool ... a baptism of sorts ... in light affairs? This requires some Eire space for those confined at present ... it'll pas ...

The demons giggle down under as they learn ... earth shaken ... or just Phen Against Waken ... the monster arises ... the awareness of the vastness of intellect? It is beyond an incarnation of love ... something Toby learned ... as the Shadow in the tome ...

What makes sacred literature sacred is the reader and contemplator thinking and/or feeling that it is sacred.

Yes... thats a good way to put it! Edification but not doctrine. Actually I'm sceptical about some Christian doctrine too but I'm probably on safer ground here.

I think it's the message contained within it that is sacred. The rest is up to culture, geography and some guys sitting around a table.

Desmond Tutu said in an article I read that religious belief is often an accident of birth and geography.

Sorry if my last post sounded glib or flippant. I didn't mean to. I was trying to be witty and it didn't turn out so well.

I think sacred texts are those which which contain universal truths and lessons to live by that can cross cultural and geographical divides and stand the test of time. I also  think  points in history, culture and geography of groups of people shape and determine what is important to them, the lense through which they interpret the scripture.  The human desire to assert power and authority is a common theme, Love is what is sacred, it is the common thread that repairs and unites and brings hope.

I posit that what sacred and what blasphemous means are two expressions of the same thing.  That is, an idea, thought or meaning that is held in such high esteem, that the word itself has become an actual object, that it is always and forever TRUE.  Sacred things are good, pure.  Blasphemous things are impure, disgusting.

To even try to think critically ('why is it a blasphemy?', 'why is this sacred?') is taught to be a kind of blasphemy itself.

Just think of some swear words that you find disgusting.  These are a form of blasphemy.  Things like pornography, human rape, child porn fall under this term.

On the sacred side, we have such different things as the ever-favourite concept of "G_d".  Human rights can be another.  The Free Market can be another.  Religion.  Motherhood.  Money.

Now, different people can have different things that they find blasphemous and different things that they find sacred.  Groups can have shared blasphemies and shared sacrednesses.  We see here in our WC group that even when we use the same words, "G_d", "divine", etc, there are still nuances there, differences that are often glossed over for the sake of social cohesion and convenience (nothing much would get done if we spent all of our times 'inventing the wheel').

Every day on this Earth we are seeing the results of different people's blasphemies and senses of the sacred coming into conflict with each other.  Just look at what dangerous sillyness happened when that US pastor burned his own copy of a book...some people went on a murderous rampage.

I think that something can still be thought of as sacred and still thought of as blasphemous and still be able to critically examine them to allow all of us to be able to act like human beings and not spit on each other or kill each other when our blasphemies/senses of the sacred are violated.

Will people go to war over the conception of God ...

It appears that's all there is to it, at least in this distraught space ... that's Eris in old tongues but who looks into the past ... they might encounter too many errors or is that Ursor Erse ... a mistake to the Anglo-Saxon tongue in a spin?

What a dissonance in the pool of human emotions ... strange thought eh ... and Roma religion hates a thinker ... lets me out a pore lye misunderstood ... makes me giggle internally at the stoop idee-ite of it'll ... Nero's Lyre ... sacred pyre? Such will continue until we attain pure thought ... that's beyond emotional circumstances---Webster! It's kole man ... like dark source of fire in the harmony of an infinite cycle ... confusion of the Taurus when seeing is red ... Eros or flowering of bull that blossoms?

Oh chi-ite did I sae that ... that's gravid ... in common tongues ... blast Ephemeral ... mother of god ... shot to eL ... helios? The power of spin ... separates the high rhode from the low wadis ... Lucrease of the mined, like crevass ... or Tun eL ... Plae Toe's dimension of the unimaginable at the foot of it all? Does mother earth make waves as she travels through the Cosmos ... an intuitive mode'L? Spindrift; one must wander at times this place wears on yah with the bull ... of what we don't know ...

Some people say that's the way it is and I question perhaps that's the way it isn't on the other's Ide ... the disconnect of humanity .... what is known as mahaineim in heh-bruin territory of the bare's ole thing ... but man can't see the infinite for the darkness ... shadow of Hazing his neighbour? You can't say nothing without effect consider Ai n't ... such was outlawed in English as Ai ... or æ in Latin ... Henry VIII hated po-pus rule and replicated it on polygamae ... many gifts of learning from the Furies? Look at what dah Fuhrer did for germane existence ... with exceptions ... always the fault in firm rule ...

Are emotions and thought firm or are they convertible? That's transcendent heh ... the threshold of rationale in Complex Nos. ... Imagine Ayres Torah! One must get right into ID ... primal power they sae ... Oz eM in the form of Black and White (angels and demons)? That's des Crypt! Full of IT and I don't know half of where it comes from ... the deeps? Isn't that odd ... or just alien as pits of the sole ...

The Moses was told to go beir foot through the earth ... that's the mire on IT ... one has to be sensitive to ... collected around ... well a gravid state ... fecunditae?

For me to consider a text sacred would mean that it contains elements of truth that are universally understood and that it is set apart from the world.

I don't think we should regard sacred texts as the object of worship or "idols" but instead we should focus on the truth's that are explained.

Short answer:  Nothing.

That was easy.

That would make lots of things that contain unique and universally understood elements of truth "sacred", including Shakespeare, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and Ikea product assembly instructions.

lol...Ikea...lol. You are a comedian, Chansen. I don't think  Ikea instructions contain universal truths...usually they're missing a few screws in the package, and whatever you build ends up falling apart quickly....it doesn't stand the test of time and can't be passed on.  

Some moral truths can be found in Shakespeare and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights...because perhaps Shakespeare's life and ideas were informed in some way by sacred text he read, perhaps, as were the founders of Human Rights as an institution. I believe that to be possible--but the truly sacred texts are the original concepts  recorded by the ancients...containing universal truths. Just an opinion.

Ikea originated from the ancient rituals of tinker toys, lego and labrynth walking...and developed into a game  that could keep adults amused and occupied, walking around and around in the maze of showrooms--to woo people into a trance, and generate more money  for the new Roman Empire---kidding, sort of ;)

Addition: I mean no disrespect to anyone who enjoys the real experience of the ritual of labyrinth walking. I have never tried...don't think it would help me, but to each their own. My comment was tongue n' cheek...because Ikea is such a maze, and a money trap!

The more I think about this, the better Ikea product assembly instructions "stack up" (no pun intended) against common scripture.

First of all, I'm not talking about Ikea furniture - I'm speaking strictly about their language-free, diagram-based instructions.  They contain timeless truths about wood joinery, including biscuits, dowels and screws.  Anyone from any culture or time in history, if presented with an unopened box of Ikea furniture, could assemble it with the included tools (though I prefer an allen key bit in an impact gun over the cheap little allen key that Ikea provides).

Further, Ikea product assembly instructions are better than the bible and most other scripture, because it contains no bullshit or false claims.  It's just truth.  It works.

Yeah...but it doesn't work a lot of the time...it falls apart. The stuff doesn't last and you have to go buy new stuff. And contains no emotional/ social/ moral  truth.

Ikea product assembly instructions (IPAIs - pronounced eye-pies) also contain no moral untruths, and no bigotry.  They have never been used as justification to annex land, and they have never advocated genocide.   Some would suggest this is a black mark on IPAIs, but I don't think so.

All in all, it's looking better for IPAIs this morning, and worse for the bible.

And again, I'm not talking about Ikea furniture, just as I'm not talking about physical wooden crosses.  Ikea furniture itself is far from ideal, just as wooden crosses are far from the ideal torture device.

But such captivates the simple mind ... anon-existential thing-heh according to some perspectives ...

Let's see:

Ikea furniture comes with instructions-------check

If one follows instructions the idea will take form-----check

There is purpose in the instructions------check

It becomes something we need-----check

We will benefit from building it-------check

Performs best if the product is used for the specific purpose it was designed for-----check

It is only useful if we use it--------check

Not everyone will buy IKEA------check

The IKEA analogy works for me too.

I digress. I kinda feel sorry I engaged in the joke. There is no beauty in Ikea manuals, no poetry...it's purely technical. Leaves nothing to the imagination. A child could figure it out...a robot could do it. Kind of an insult to the ancients who wrote the sacred texts, don't you think?

We want the children to be able to figure it out too, don't we?

Beauty is often, as they say, in the eye of the beholder.  There is a quality of clarity and simplicity in IPAIs.  They are not easily misinterpreted, as are scriptures.  They are accessible.  They are, in fact, timeless.

As for a child figuring it out, what is wrong with that?  We dumb-down the bible to cute little stories and illustrations that play down the horrors of the bible.  We have no need to sanitize IPAIs, or make them easier to understand.  We also have less need for Ikea clergy, or Customer Service, to explain what IPAIs mean.

Ikea product assembly instructions are simply better than scripture in so many ways.

Is that an insult to sand-dwelling ancients?  Not really.  They were doing the best they could, with what they knew.  That said, I have little doubt that many biblical authors were quite self-serving (as were more recent authors of "scripture"), so if I am insulting them, I'm not going to let that bother me.

You're right, Waterfall, we do want children to be able to figure it out. Wow, I'm digging myself into a hole here :) I like the poetry, symbolism and metaphor of the ancient texts...it gets beneath the surface, speaks to the heart, for me anyway, challenges me to consider ethereal nuts and bolts of faith and love, rather than just earthly practicalities limited to earthly elements. Maybe that's the aspect that I find beautiful and, as such, sacred. That said, I can only act upon those elements, use those ethereal tools in my experience of the here and  now, because  I am here now,...but I believe they are important, eternal and universal. However, once I have learned a truth through the metaphor, I have to go out and use it,  to make a difference that  other people can appreciate in the here and now, not just ruminate on the symbolism.  That's what I have figured out for myself.

 But, hey, if Ikea manual style works for some, teaches people something valuable and is preferable for them, then who am I to judge?

All the best. See you on another thread. :)

But the poetry, symbolism and metaphor of ancient texts are often barbaric, cruel, and immoral, and it justifies bigotry and intolerance and violence to this day.  We have better sources of poetry, symbolism and metaphor.

The Ikea product assembly instructions analogy was actually a better one than I originally thought, as it was obviously a joke at first, but the more I thought about it, the more I realized that these instructions were net positive documents.  My position is that scripture, like the bible, is a negative net influence on the world - that we'd be better off relegating it to mythology, like we have Greek and Norse mythology.  Not that there isn't anything to learn from the bible, but widespread belief in its contents isn't helping at this point.  It divides.  Ikea unites.  And their commercials are really good.

Edit:  And Ikea is based in a largely secular country.  This analogy keeps getting better.

Okay, I can't resist responding to this...yes, there is violent symbolism in the Bible...and with Jesus in the New Testament, symbolism representing the choice to turn away from participating in destructive behaviour...to actively love and believe that will make a positive difference and lead to healing and renewal...the proverbial missing or forgotten link ....to move forward focused on this.

War and violence, as history (and present day) teaches us seems to be an unfortunate feature of humanity. Even if we did not have sacred text, and only had the Ikea manual to refer to for our life lessons...people would change it and adapt it and fight over whose was the legitimate original, and then and then  fight over whether or something could be built better a different way...then someone would steal someone else's idea, and another corporate family would compete with the Ikea corporate family, then there might be a war...etc., etc....but the material itself would contain no moral truth...that is to say, within the manual, is simply rules for building furniture...it does not contain within in it, between the lines, moral truths about the importance of turning away from human tendency towards destructive behaviour.

For a moment...your analogy to the Ikea catalogue just reminded me of Brave New World...an amazing book, ahead of it's time--as if Huxley knew something, was tuned into something that noone else was yet, even if he didn't know it when he wrote the book...it was almost a warning, as some of the concepts in it have taken shape in our world and continue to as we look at the direction our world is headed...but it didn't have a happy ending, did it? People lived by systematic rules and policies only, children were produced in factories, and classified, as soul-less objects, according to their usefulness within a man made and governed system, love and family was rejected, sex was purely recreational, women were judged according to their sexual appeal and were conditioned to accept it, people worshipped the corporate icon Ford--and if life got them down...there was always soma...a little pill to pop to make one forget about the superficiality of their existence...

Brave New World might be a good topic for another thread?

The scary part is that Brave New World, and 1984, both the possible extremes of world domination, to me, seem to be like the male monotheism model taken to extreme.  An all powerful person or committee, ruling the world with either punishment (1984) or pleasure (Brave New World).  Its something society aspires to and abhors at the same time.

In contrast, I think the exact opposite to those 2 great book scenarios has/is actually happening.  With cell phone devices, tiny cameras, and tiny camcorders, our leaders are routinely exposed by the people.  

The rise of the internet has brought collective thought, collective reasoning, & collective intelligence to a level never before experienced.  The lesson here may be that a large group interacting freely is vastly more powerful, and can act faster, than one super powerful person.  This has been very recently demonstrated in the middle east.

This is the complete opposite of the traditional male monotheism model.  

Oh, btw, I think that sacred texts are made sacred by those who want them to be.  There is tremendous value in them, no matter where they originated, but there is just as much value to be found in many other sources.

Hi oui,

Do you want to move this to another category...pop culture maybe...or politics....?

Hmmm, I have to agree with Kimmio here. Compared to the wisdom of the Sermon on the Mount or the beauty of books like the Palsms, Ikea manuals don't hold a candle.

The pictorial images on how to put a swedish bench together may be useful to some, but some parts of the Bible are timeless and good enough to be heard over and over again.
 

For instance:

Ah,

Time is of the essence the dark stranger ...

Then is life to love, or is life a place to dispense love and make room for knowledge ... resolve the old question: " My child what did you learn while out there?" That would lead to clear th'aught ... nothing but de athe end O'vite! Did you see that go bi ...

After all we were born with love; wisdom is something that is acquired through a mythical experience ... encounter with other souls ... like thyself in a mire ... that dirt eh like a mahdi dancer ... dirty dancing about a point?

Trouble with the word "mahdi" look it up in Webster (under dervish) and make the mental connections with the Nubean dancers of Exodus' tale ... Sudan or sous Dan ... that devil we call Skye in Celtic ... derived from a Nordic Suite of gods ... or is that just a sweeð-ich story? Then those that never studied the depths of phone-tic read will never approach the impression of -ich (phesh) that gnawing feeling inside?

Would you think there is something eating the world we stand upon ... like the support system is bean raped like Lucrece ... then that's a whole different myth about the same space ... de mêmè ... brae*in space of where you go to think ... an Ego/ekos/Echo ... reflection in non-determinate space! Some never get it ... like the bible as a rule of how to do things ... sometimes of how not to do things then those with a 2-membered soul would know this is how not to do it just for the whirling dervish of IT all ... spinning about you as chaos theology. First one has to accept the sole as basis of th'aught ... in pig-noire ... behind the Black Veil ... Hawkin's Abstract Hole ... black humus (or is that humii, or haggadai)? It does radiate mysteriously ... St. Even being tuned ... anonymously!

Whirling dervish: the dirt all about us as intellect ... one should collect some in a hard place for cultivation of what comes to mind ... impossible'd ream? That's a pillar of bo'ques ... what they call bibliothécaire in franc or gael, a sedan in another tongue converted to saloon or berline in the necessary germane!

How did these words get all in dis array ... like spectre of things past ... aboriginal respect for the earth and not an attempt to overcome IT ... a fatal fault of man who would fight over the mire crack ... ends in the Middle East in myth! Is there some truth to this ...

Do you know how many time Jarrod ... or jarred is in the 'olestory? Many times due to the travail that goes on trying to get tae Ruth in a difficult dimension ... a hard place? What would one expect if you were abused as thought by the emotional side of the cheeks of existentialism ... as is? You can see IÐ drifting ...