The birth of the Christ Spirit within.

And the Christ Spirit is the Spirit of Cosmic Unity.

Yeah, let's party!

Here's something I lifted from the internet that may be of interest .He reads symbolism and mysticism in the whole of the gospel story.  

Christmas of the soul
by Rev. Howard Ray Carey

That which we celebrate at Christmas, if we have insight, is not so much an event which took place in Palestine in an ancient time, but rather an event, which in both ancient and pre-sent times transpires within the human heart ---- when the individual is spiritually prepared for it. It is an inner drama ---- you could call it a soul drama. Paradoxically, it is an event rooted in the infinite, but finding expression in the finite. It has its source in the timeless, yet it transpires at a given moment in time. It is a universal reality, yet it happens within the human heart.

It is called the first initiation. There are five major initiations leading from the human kingdom, or human level of life, to the spiritual level, the Kingdom of God. And Christmas celebrates the first of these five. (The second is called the Baptism ---- into greater responsibility; the third, the Transfiguration; the fourth, the complete Renunciation or Crucifixion; and the fifth, the Resurrection into full citizenship in the spiritual kingdom, or Mastership.) Christmas, as celebrated in most churches, is clothed in the garments of Christian theology and the trappings of Christian creed. As celebrated commercially, it is wrapped in tinsel and toys ---- toys like scotch whiskey and fur pieces and stuffed stomachs.

There is a truer way of understanding it, and a better way of celebrating it. On this level we know that this truth which Christmas means is not the exclusive property of any one religion. Parenthetically, it is interesting to note that the events of that first Christmas did not take place among Christians at all, because Christianity had not yet been established. All the members of the 'holy family' were, of course, Jews. But they do not have a corner on Christmas either, for, if we just knew it, all families are holy. So, that which we celebrate at this season really belongs to all.

It is a drama of the inner life. So we are not concerned about those modern Bible scholars who maintain that the birth stories concerning Jesus, which appear in different versions and only in Matthew and Luke, are later additions to the gospel. As a drama of the inner life, what matters is not whether there was, on the physical plane, a virgin birth, a new star in the outer sky, and shepherds and wise men. They do, however, represent symbols of inner truths, and this is the reality with which we are concerned.

To begin with, what is the meaning of this new birth pictured as taking place in a stable among cattle and other animals? Some would reply, ''Because that is where Jesus was actually born.'' Possibly He was, but we have no need to enter into that dispute. What the birth in the stable among the animals really symbolizes is the fact that this initiation, or New Birth, takes place while we are incarnate in a physical or animal body, not while we are on the higher planes between incarnations. It may take place at night while we are on another level of consciousness, and so perhaps be out of the body temporarily, but this divine life has to take root and grow right here in the heart center of this physical or animal life.

Next, we are told that Joseph was not the real father of Jesus, but instead that Mary was impregnated by the overshadowing Spirit. The biblical literalist insists that it definitely was an immaculate conception and a virgin birth, but on the level we are viewing these matters it does not matter one way or the other. On the higher level, Joseph represents the concrete or rational mind, and Mary represents the heart center of our life. Joseph, as the rational mind, is incapable of planting the seed of divine love in the heart center which eventually brings the Christ, the divinity within, to birth. That divine seed can come only from the higher nature, from the love-wisdom center represented in the Bible as the overshadowing Spirit ---- which it is.

What do the shepherds represent ---- those who keep watch over their flocks by night? Now, your interpretation of the symbolism of these matters need not agree with mine. But, to me, the shepherds represent advanced individuals who are sufficiently awake to be aware of the reality of divine birth ---- of initiation ---- and sensitive enough to catch the angel song, not with the physical ear, but with the subjective or inner hearing.

According to Luke, the spoken word of the first angel to appear included this: ''Be not afraid, for behold, I bring you good news of a great joy which will come to all the people.'' And the heavenly chorus sang: ''Glory to God in the highest. Peace on earth, goodwill toward men.'' Are we awake? Do we listen to that heaven-sent song? We are shepherds, are we not? Or at least called to be such, keeping watch in prayer and meditation over the sleeping flocks (the unawakened ones) during the night of men's suffering. Ponder on that call, that task, that joyous privilege. Let us watch...and listen...and hear and respond.

Let us take our journey to Bethlehem, the place of New Birth, of beginning again. Let us kneel in spirit before the glory of the divine life born among men, in the stable, within man's animal nature ---- a miracle indeed. We are told that higher Beings, symbolized by the angels, are present at every real initiation, and there is truly divine melody. Unless we are on the 'path', we do not listen and are dull of hearing, as Isaiah and Jesus both commented, and we fail to make our journey into the presence of the Christ. What about the star? I am not interested whether or not a new star appeared in the sky at that time. In reality, those who have witnessed initiation and have conscious memory of it affirm that at a certain point in the ceremony the star of initiation shines out over the heads of those being initiated. Here is the significance of the star of Bethlehem.

The three wise men, or Magi, reported by Matthew (but not by Luke) are, I believe, workers in white magic and probably adepts or very advanced disciples who are present at every initiation. We are told that at such a time three of them form a triangle of light around the new initiate, stepping down the tremendous energy to a more tolerable level. Perhaps these energies are symbolized by the gifts of the Magi: gold, frankincense and myrrh.

Gold is a most precious metal, symbolic of highest values. Alchemists work to transmute baser metals into gold. Truly, when we have undergone initiation, lesser values of life have been transmuted into the gold of higher character.

Frankincense represents true beauty ---- the aesthetic values and dimensions of life. It is when we have risen to the level of initiation that we are in possession of life's real incense.

Myrrh was used in ancient times to prepare bodies for burial. It represents pain, suffering and sorrow. Though this may come as a surprise to some, pain also is an important element in the life of the initiate. Far from being spared pain, as we advance in life, we come to experience it on a higher level ---- a sharing in the suffering of bruised humanity. This is a redemptive level of pain in which we all can share, and will do so increasingly. Myrrh cannot be left out of the gifts.

Finally, what about Herod who, according to Matthew, tried to destroy the newborn babe? As we ponder this question, we become aware that Herod represents the lower life, the lower desires. These, like Herod, are possessive of their power over us and are loath to give it up. Herod is told (and these lower forces become aware) that Christ is born to grow and to reign. But Herod will do all in his power to prevent this.

Who gives the needed protection to this new initiate, the babe in Christ, the 'little one' as the Bible calls the fledgling initiate? Here is where Joseph, the rational mind, comes in. This concrete mind cannot fertilize the heart center with the divine seed and cannot, like Mary, give birth. But the concrete mind does have its real value. Instructed from above, as Joseph was instructed by angels, it forms an important part of the holy family of our nature, providing protection from above for the new life. This might be called the protection of common sense, or practical good judgment. Thus the new life, born and growing in the heart center, is kept from 'going off the deep end', as we sometimes say, and being destroyed. Also, do not forget Mary, the love of the heart. For the heart and head need to be always in harmony and co-operation in order for the new life within us to grow to maturity and truly reign in our life.

oui, the problem is, you're not asking what Christmas is all about; you presume to tell us Christians who are celebrating it, what it is all about, and that we're wrong.  Doesn't that strike you as a bit odd?  It would be like me telling you that your avatar is not oui, and you were not born on your birthday, and you don't speak English. Yeah, about that silly.  If you were asking, I would tell you--it's a celebration of the presence of God in our midst.  That's the word, right from a real person celebrating a real holiday in a real way.  Of course it's about Jesus.  Get a grip--

Or, maybe you DON'T speak English?  Is that why it's so hard for you to understand?

weeze

I think you need to mellow out a little Weeze. I don't think Oui meant any offence here. Like millions of people he's questioning the real meaning of Christmas, as opposed to the commercial, santa clause thing's it's turned into.

It's a well know fact that the Winter Solstice was celebrated at the time, either as Saturnalia or as Sol Invictus, "the birthday of the unconquered sun". It seems like a pretty obvious link between the day chosen as Christmas Day and these well known festivals.

There are many ways to read the Bible, from the absolute, literal 'dead letter' to the mystic and symbolic meaning behind the written word, and everything in between. Like all of us, Oui is searching for the truth, a truth that needs to be recognized from within and not swallowed like a pill from without.

Neo, read oui's post again. He didn't ask.  He told. Now, if he wants to celebrate the solstice, that's perfectly fine, and any old reason for a party is fine by me. But Christmas is about Jesus. Not Walmart, he's right about that! But he isn't asking us who celebrate Christmas what it means to us. He's just looking for a reason to party when he doesn't agree with our reason to party.

weeze

We'll, that may the case and I'll let Oui clarify what he really meant by his post. But nevertheless, I'm sure you don't talk to people in your own congregation like that, even they didn't speak english.

Hi Oui,

For me, Christmas is about celebrating the arrival on earth of Jesus Christ, the Messiah prophesied in the Old Testament, who came to earth to bring a new message to God's people.  And with his birth the light of love, the warmth of hope and the healing of peace was born also into  in a dark, cold and hurting world.

God bless,

Yeah -- I'm wondering why the harsh words too, Weeze.  It doesn't seem in character some how.  Maybe it's just an off day for you.

Your words were, IMO unnecessarily hurtful and disrespectful.

It seems to me (back on topic), that the Solstice has always been a great excuse for a party.  That's why Christianity adopted it.  It was something people had been celebrating time out of mind, and the universal themes of rebirth fit the bill.

Hi Neo and Ninjafaery,

Re: The harsh words of Weeze.  Maybe it is frustration.  Maybe it's frustration from the fact that Christians, Christianity and Christian celebrations are routinely questioned and attacked these days.

Christianity is put under the microscope, critiqued, criticized and questioned far more than religions like Buddhism, Judaisim and even the moderate strains of Islam.  I don't know why.  Maybe because Christianity has been the dominant religion in the western world for so long.

Whatever the reason, the Christmas celebration faces a disproportionate amount of negative attention compared to celebrations like Ramadan and Hannukha (please forgive me for the spelling of Hannukha if it's wrong - it's one of those words I've been struggling to spell correctly all my life).  

People like Weeze and I know that Jesus wasn't born December 25th and that the early Christian rulers co-opted the Christmas celebration from the winter solstice festival.  It's old news.  Yet every year people feel the need to haul those faded headlines out of the recycle bin and wave it in our faces.  But I stand by my original post, which answered Oui's direction question,   "What is Xmas really about."  And I answered..."For me...for ME, Christmas is about celebrating God's love, hope and peace coming to earth in the form of an infant child.  So it has been for the vast majority of Christians for more than 1,600 years.

Like I said,  if Weeze was out of character, maybe she's just tired and frustrated at have to defend her faith again and again and again and again.

God bless,

I will weigh in on this later as I am off to Church. Just a note though. oui is a she, not a he.

MERRY CHRISTMAS to all. For me, it's all about Jesus Christ,  my glorious Lord and Saviour.

Greetings!

Celebrating Christmas and the meaning of Christmas is different for everyone.  For some it is about the winter solstice, for some it is about commercialsim, for some it is about Santa, for some it is about family, for some it is about Christ, for some it is about celebrating Jesus' birth.  And I'm sure . . . a whole lot more other things too.

In the instance that one believes that Jesus was the Christ, and a real person, one makes a decision about the date of his birth.  Is it the 25th of December - some decide it is, and others adopt the idea that the date of birth is actually unknown and that at some point in history December 25th was chosen. I often think of people who were born, even in the past hundred or so years who celebrate a chosen birth date on a certain day because they don't really know when they were born . . . perhaps the circumstances were such that their birth was not correctly recorded or even originally recorded at all.  My mother's birth certificate and her real date of birth were different.  It was the middle of cold winter, her father had to walked miles into town to register her, it was weeks later, and when he did so, he gave them the wrong date of birth.

Some even question the birth and reality of Jesus at all, but still celebrate Christmas or December 25th as the birth of the spirit of Christ within.

For myself, I celebrate Christmas, December 25th, as the birth of Christ, might not be the real day, but I believe that Jesus was born at some point, and this for me is the chosen day to celebrate the idea of his birth.  I also celebrate the birth of the spirit of Christ in this world.  I celebrate friends and family.  I celebrate Hope, Peace, Joy, and Love.

Yeah, let's celebrate . . .

Hope, peace, joy, love . . .  

Dave, I think the answer to this, with all due respect, is that Christians have a small but very loud minority who say, with no respect or consideration for other people's feelings, beliefs or heritage, that their religion is the only way to God and that all other ways are heathenistic and not worthy of the Christian God. And I suppose that one of the ways of fighthing back is with critisism of Christmas, a religious celebration that was borrowed from the very same heathens! Perhaps if this small minority were to be humble about their origins and recognize, for instance, that even Christ Himself claimed that he had 'other folds' then perhaps people would back off a little.

Anyways, I don't mean any disrespect when I say this, it's only an observation. Christmas, as you say, is about Christ and the promise to a waiting world that there is a way and a path that we can all take that will return us to our Centre. Is this way for everone? Probably not. Is this way the only way? Depends who you ask, I guess.

Hi Neo,

You wrote:  "Dave, I think the answer to this, with all due respect, is that Christians have a small but very loud minority who say, with no respect or consideration for other people's feelings, beliefs or heritage, that their religion is the only way to God and that all other ways are heathenistic and not worthy of the Christian God. And I suppose that one of the ways of fighthing back is with critisism of Christmas, a religious celebration that was borrowed from the very same heathens! Perhaps if this small minority were to be humble about their origins and recognize, for instance, that even Christ Himself claimed that he had 'other folds' then perhaps people would back off a little."

Most, if not all, would all agree that to condemn all Muslums because of the tiny minority of Muslims who are terrorists is  just plain wrong.  So is your argument.

I'm just making an observation Dave, I'm not justifying it. People will and do condemn all Muslims because of the terrorist, and this isn't right either. Christianity has a long, long history of forcing their beliefs on others either by violence or intimidation, vis-à-vis, for example, the crusades by the medieval Christians or the threat of eternal hell for not adhering or compliying, a tactic that's been, as far I know, only used by Christians.

Anyways, perhaps this line of talk should be continued on it's own topic, I seem to be straying.  And I said above, I don't mean disrespect towards Christians or the celebration of Christmas itself. I'm just trying to see things objectively.

Cheers for now DaveHenderson and Merry Christmas

Hello oui......God bless you....

I believe like others here Christmas celebrates the Birth of Jesus...it shows the Virgin Birth to be Divine ......a Divine Being...coming to Earth not to judge the World but to Save the World....

I also think Christmas is about giving...we all feel great to be able to give to others and if this only happens on Christmas, Birthdays and Aniversaries...then amen...giving is a part of the Holy Spirit of God , and God so Loved the World He Gave....I believe it teaches the All of Us that Giving Opens the Door to Love...

And God is the Law of Love .........and a Huge Giver....

IJL:bg

Yes it really is about Jesus for me and all born again Christians. And I don't know of any who know what day Jesus was born but we are quite happy to have a day set aside to celebrate the first coming of our Lord and God.

Check the words out to this song about His birth.

Merry Christmas everyone,

Bjorne

Sorry weeze, I was just expressing my train of thought in attempting to sort out where Xmas comes from, and what it has become.  Its seems to be confusing for so many people, heavily pressured to buy, but worship a helpless baby, who became the symbol of charity, at the same time.  It can be very hard to reconcile.

I'm not trying to tell you what to believe, that is entirely up to you.  Whatever gives you spiritual comfort is great.   I don't care how you want to think of it, I offer only my own sorting process, and where that has lead me.

Personally, I believe that the date of Dec. 25 has not, as yet,  been proven to be the actual birthdate of Jesus.  I have not found any New Testament references to Jesus celebrating his own birthdate, or commanding others to do so.  So, for me, its not about Jesus.

I believe it is very safe to say that the extent of commercialism and commercial pressure currently attached to Xmas is quite recent.   Xmas, only 100 years ago, seems vastly different to what we see now.  Three people died in the U.S. on Black Friday, if that is where this path leads, I'm not interested.

I believe the Winter Solstice has been observed since ancient times.  A tomb at Newgrange (Ireland) was built about 3200 BC., and is designed to allow light inside only at the time of the Solstice.  That's 5000 years old!  And its exciting.  Its only one of many ancient structures built around the Solstice.  Here is a link about the site:

http://www.knowth.com/newgrange.htm

Personally, I believe that the common link to this celebration at this time of year, around the globe, is the Winter Solstice.  And as Arminius mentioned, a good time to appreciate and acknowledge the God within. 

With all of this, I'm not saying you, or anyone else is wrong.  Its just where my journey has lead me, to this point.

Interestingly my son and I were discussing this very topic tonight. We are both quite aware that the birthdate of Jesus has not been recorded. We are also aware that the date we celebrate coincides with pretty much all other major religions including muslim, wiccan (winter solstice) and Jewish.

We celebrate the birth of the one who came to give us hope, love, peace and joy. I personally don't see that the date itself it not particularily important.

This is a time to party no matter how you see God. 

Blessings

Musicsooths

Dave is right, I'm very frustrated, becasue it seems to me we've built a culture here where there is pluralism and religious freedom--but for some reason Christians have to be under fire all the time.  And we've been 'round this mulberry bush before, oui and I, and I couldn't believe it was still happening. See--oui--if you had worded your 'question' differently it wouldn't have bugged me so much. If you had said that for you, it didn't make sense to celebrate a birth whose date we couldn't pinpoint; if you had said it didn't make sense to you to get into the shopping thing (there we'd be in ABSOLUTE agreement!) then I could accept that very well. But don't denigrate us who believe. Christmas IS a religious holiday, and a celebration of the presence of the Christ in our midst, and just because it has some very ancient roots doesn't mean that our current practice is invalid. That's what makes me mad, is when people make out that we don't have any brains at all, that our tradition is "just borrowed from pagans" and therefore illegitimate and to be scoffed at. 

On the other hand, our holiday is taken over by people who have no notion in the world of giving thanks to God for Christ--but shopping, drinking, etc. is pinned to it instead, and they still call it Christmas.  Oui, you start a movement, please, to get all the people who don't believe in Jesus to call their celebration Solstice instead, and I will be glad about that.  Happy Solstice, weeze

Hi Oui,

Sure it is.  Jesus the Christ.  Hence Christmas.

Which is true but quite beside the point.  I have a sneaking suspicion that most all Christian churches know that all mothers were not born on the 2nd Sunday in May.  Nor were all Christian families formed then.

Which is also true.  Which makes Christmas non-biblical.  That isn't the same as non-Christian.  Christianity has a wealth of tradition that goes beyond the bounds of scripture.

Not initially certainly.  That doesn't mean it isn't about commercialism now.  The word Gay was initially defined quite differently.  Life is more dynamic than it is static.  Santa is the commercialized St. Nicholas who likely wasn't quite so hefty.  Santa has the build of one who has gone whole hog after the commercial ideals of excess and instant gratification.

And who invented that?  Wait a minute, that is a natural phenomenon and not the protected property of anyone right?

So, lets look at it this way.

Christianity likes symbol and it likes to find connection between the narrative of faith and the natural world.  Hence our love of doves and rainbows and bushes that burn but are not consumed.

The Gospel of John bears witness to Jesus Christ being the light of the world.

What great symbolism then for light coming into the world than the point in the year when the days stop shrinking and the days start growing?

Coincidentally the Son also conquers darkness and has a neat little talk one night about being born again.

True.  So do sunrise and sunset.  Have you ever noticed just how many cultures have their own interpretations about the Winter Solstice?  They must all be bunk too right?

Unless they too are using the Winter Solstice as a bit of symbolism as well.

So far the only ones I know who celebrate the Solstice are GM and I have to admit, It is a looker and I've heard it can really haul.  Still, it is a GM product and slightly suspect quality wise.

And hey, commercialism is using psychology.  The nights are longer moving into the winter solstice and that has adverse affects on individuals since we are diurnal for the most part.  Our colour vision is not well suited for the night time when colour isn't as important as is detecting movement.

We get depressed.

Commercialism has the remedy.

Buy stuff.  Lack of Vitamin D got you down?  We can sell the cure for that as well.  It might not actually be that good a cure because when the bills roll in that depression (not in the clinical sense) comes back with a vengeance.  But by then our panic consumerism has lifted business out of the red into the black.

You are right that the Winter Solstice is always there.

You are wrong in thinking that the Winter Solstice is what is being celebrated.  Any more than when we celebrate Holy Communion we are really celebrating Wonderbread and Welch's.  You have confused, I think, the symbol with what it is meant to symbolize.

More light is more hope.

From a Christian perspective, Jesus is the light of the world and Christmas is the day we celebrate that light coming and piercing our darkness.  We are celebrating hope in our context.

From a Commercialist perspective, more black ink than red ink is attached to sales and this season of the year sales shoot through the roof.  Business owners are celebrating hope in their context.

Oh there will be no end of partying.  The party though will mean different things to differnt people and that's okay.  More cake's dedicated to more reasons to celebrate doesn't sound like a horrible idea to me.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Christmas is no longer about Jesus.  Unfortunately.  The Church has become a secular movement since the end of the first century.  Indeed, the early church didn't celebrate Christmas.  They didn't ingore it, they observed the Nativity on the Sunday designated for that worship.  What month or year Jesus was born doesn't matter.  What matters is that He came.  Churches have Christmas eve services to salve their conscience, then the family stress begins.  One of my favourite movies that parodies the Christmas season as we know it is "National Lampoons Christmas Vacation".  As a former pastor, I purposely don't celebrate Christmas as it's celebrated today.  (Of course, I no longer attend Church services either.)  I watch the above movie, and a performance of Handel's Messiah (or Mendelssohn's Elijah if I can get ahold of it).  I get together with family members for a nice, calm meal.  No gift exchange.  What would they do if they had Christmas, and no one showed up to celebrate?  Over twenty years ago, when I worked in addiction services, after the holidays was usually a busy time as people came crashing down because of too much drinking, too much eating, too much debt, and too much stress.  Scrooge had it right.  Merry Christmas?  Bah, Humbug!

An interesting aside, for those who deny Jesus' divinity or existence, why, or how, do they observe Christmas?

Another aside, did you know that when you anagram SANTA you end up with SATAN?

Who created the Winter Solstice?

God did in the beginning and who was with Him and was Him but Jesus! John 1:1

Hence - Winter Solstice = Christmas

Isn't that interesting that all of these other Pagan religions have been celebrating Christmas since before Jesus came in the flesh?

Halleleulla!!!!

Hi Stoneeyball,

You made reference to Charles Dickens "A Christmas Carol".  Ironically, it contains one of my favourite pieces of Christmas apologetics.  It is the exchange between Scrooge and his Nephew Fred in the counting house:

"Nephew!" returned the uncle, sternly, "keep Christmas in your own way, and let me keep it in mine."

"Keep it!" repeated Scrooge's nephew.  "But you don't keep it."

"Let me leave it alone, then," said Scrooge.  "Much good may it do you!  Much good it has ever done you!"

"There are many things from which I might have derived good, by which I have not profited, I dare say," returned the nephew.  "Christmas among the rest.  But I am sure I have always thought of Christmas time, when it has come round -- apart from the veneration due to its sacred name and origin, if anything belonging to it can be apart from that -- as a good time: a kind, forgiving, charitable, pleasant time: the only time I know of, in the long calendar of the year, when men and women seem by one consent to open their shut-up hearts freely, and to think of people below them as if they really were fellow-passengers to the grave, and not another race of creatures bound on other journeys.  And therefore, uncle, though it has never put a scrap of gold or silver in my pocket, I believe that it has done me good, and will do me good; and I say, God bless it!"

By the way, do you know if you anagram curmudgeon you get "noegdumruc?"  Okay that's a bunch of gibberesh, but I still enjoy Fred's defence of the Christmas season.

God bless,

weeze, I hope I have sufficiently clarified that it is a personal expression, and I in NO way intended it to purposely denigrate anyone's beliefs.  I will try to be more detailed in future.

RevJohn, thank you, that is exactly the extension and direction of Christian thought that I hoped my post would generate. 

Nice post DaveHenderson!

Oui, you didn't denigrate my beliefs.  I understood that you were questioning and looking for input from others.  Good luck on your journey.  Weeze seems a bit territorial about Christmas:  such a wonderful event should be shared with anyone wishing to partake.  Let everyone celebrate Christmas as they understand it.  How can it hurt? 

 Indeed!  Let's party!

Neo: That's almost exactly the message of Tom Harpur in The Pagan Christ and Water Into Wine.  Both of which are awesome books, by the way.

weeze: And you're going and telling oui exactly the same thing.

Here's the deal - either we ALL agree to disagree, or we argue it out fair and square, giving everyone the right to TRY to push their ideas on others provided they do it properly.

So far, oui has made better arguments.

Dave: Hannukah is spelt with a k-a-h, not a k-h-a.  

Christianity does NOT face disproportionate negative attention.  Compared to Buddhism or Jainism, maybe, but when's the last time you saw a Jain fly bomb an abortion clinic?  On the other hand, Islam gets TONS of negative attention.  Sure, it gets the political correctness defense from half the media and those people sound like they have complete authority, but when you look at it, the 'mavericks' whining about political correctness are actually at least as common as the 'establishment' they are fighting.  As for Christmas vs. Hannukah or Ramadan, you are misperceiving the situation.  Christmas has experienced a decrease in cultural significance from earlier days, but back then it had a dominance.  When people change 'Christmas' to 'Holiday' on something, it looks like they have a problem with Christmas, but if you were used to Hannukah, 'the Holidays' would look anti-Hannukah.  You don't see Christmas in any places any more, but you don't see 'Hannukah' or 'Ramadan' or 'Kwanzaa' stated any more explicitly in public outlets, so it looks pretty fair to me.

I'm not a fan of 'the holidays' by the way.  That's not diversity, it's reductionism.  Instead of acknowledging everyone's celebrations, it just eliminates everyone's celebrations and replaces them with a purely commercial and meaningless event.  Places like Winners have it right.  At most stores these days, you just see snowflakes and stuff, not even the decidedly secular figure of Santa Claus any more - but I went to Winners one day and their decorations - at least the particular outlet I visited - had traditional Christmas symbols, and a Menorah, and other stuff.

Also - 'holiday trees' make no sense.  Aside from paganism, only the celebrants of Christmas buy trees at all, so there's no reason to make those politically correct.

Beloved: Congratulations on your honest, hardcore inclusiveness.  An extremely reasonable if not terribly exciting post. 

RevJohn: I think at least part of what oui is trying to argue is that the ORIGINAL meaning is seasonal.  Which is true.  If nobody has a clue when Jesus was born, why December 25th?  To appease the pagans of course.

Also - STOP DISSING SANTA.

Santa has become commercialized as Christmas became commercialized.  Santa was never intended as a commercial figure.  Santa can still BE a non-commercial figure.  In The Night Before Christmas, which is where his image really solidified, sure he was fat, sure he gave out presents, but you didn't see him advertising Coca-freaking-Cola.

stoneeyeball: Why do non-Christians celebrate Christmas?  Oui just explained.  In the first post.  There's the solstice archetype - that's what I'm in it for.  There's commercialism too, and just wanting to go along with the rest of the culture.

As for the Santa thing - come on.  That is not an argument.  He is called 'Santa' because Santa is Spanish for SAINT.  Does that make the saints Satanic?

BornFree: Interesting, if culturally superioristic, perspective.  (That's a word, right?)

 Recommended reading: Hogfather, by Terry Pratchett.

It's fiction, but it teaches you SO MUCH about the meaning of 'the holidays'.  Well, that's Terry Pratchett for you.

 And consumingfire, WOW.  That is your coolest avatar yet.

I think that is called posthumously throwing backwards, by using a modern idea and attempting to apply it to the past.

Nothing modern about it that I can see. The world has been celebrating Jesus since day one.

But only the part of the world that lets him in ---- Hence the revelation of the biblical writers.

They are only writing about the very same experiences experienced by millions of people who have let the Lord in.

This is a scripture that speaks to that:

 
    He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. [16] For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

Collosians 1:15-16

Hi ShamanWolf,

Maybe.  Its hard to say isn't it?  I mean most of the celebrations taking place at that time of year are not focussing on the earth's rotation around the sun and the tilting of earth on its axis right?

Most are tying all of that natural stuff into their world view and from there it takes on meaning other than, hey this is just another day of the year.

I doubt it was with the intent to appease.  I'm sure it was with the intent to subvert.  The church of that particular era wasn't very big on assimilating.  They started the very first turn or burn campaign.

It is also symbolic because of the symbols which already exist in the Christian tradition.

Pffft.  I can out run fatboy.

Oh yes he was.  Norman Rockwell has the print to prove it.

Grace and peace to you.

John

 But can you outrun the reindeer?

neo

Ask poor grandma, she got run over

IT

Russ

What's with the x, Neo? I can't get anything.

Aw man, and it looked so good in the preview. Just a image of Rudolf with parts of RevJohn's Christmas tree still in his antlers,  see http://www.share-christmas.com/carols/reindeer_decorated_hg_clr.gif

Ok forget it, even that link didn't work!

Great site, Neo! I sent some of those Herman Friendship Cake Recipes to a friend, and will bake some myself. Thanks for the link! 

That's great, but I must admit, I didn't even look at the site. I was googling for images.

Now that I look at it .... there is some good stuff on there, i.e. http://www.share-christmas.com/traditions/christmastree.htm 

Well, Neo, God's hand! God wants us to eat Herman's cakes!

"Let them eat cake!"

-Arminius

Hi Neo,

Depends.  In an open field with eight of them harnessed together?  Not likely.

If I make it to the trees and fatboy drives his team in after me I bet one of me is more agile in the forest than eight reindeer harnessed to chunky and his sleigh.

Please note that most of the Reindeer are male.  If it was an open field and they were rutting  I could probably get away while they were busy maiming themselves.  Rutting in a leather harness will probably get the jolly one trampled or gored.

And with respect to Grandma.  I shared this last year but this is a season of tradition so . . .

http://www.mxforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20032&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Grace and peace to you.

John

Actually RevJohn the Reindeer are female. The males lose their antlers in the winter while the females don't.  Haven't you ever wondered why Santa is always on task and on time????

How Kinky!!!

music

And never gets lost?

IT

Russ

Russ exactly!!!!

 Wow.  My attempt at a quote argument looks weird.  How do I do it properly?