An agnostic dentist in town called me out of the blue and asked me to meet him at McDonald's in the next few days to discuss the tragedy in Japan from a theological perspective.  I have known him for a few years and he has never approached me like this before.  So one positive from  this horrible situation is that it causes many people to ask some deep and important spiritual questions.  In response, I would begin by saying that the beginning of wisdom is to know what you don't know and avoid transgressing that boundary.  On the other hand, such tregedies raise the question of whether and to what extent God micro-manages the universe. 

Relevant here is the extensive thread of biblical tradition that insists that, though God brings order out of chaos, God has not mastered or controlled these forces of nature.  Perhaps the clearest expression of this is Ecclesiastes 9:11: "The race is not to the swift or the battle to the strong, nor does food come to the wise or wealth to the brilliant or favor to the learned.  BUT TIME AND CHANCE HAPPEN TO THEM ALL. "   This teaching raises the question: How then do we understand the conditions needed for effective petitionary prayer and divine intervention.  I have my own theories about this question, but am looking for more satisfying answers.  We do need to beware of answers that make divine empathy unreal in the experience of victims.

I always remember Fred Rogers, Presbyterian clergy and friend of all the children.  He counselled children watching times of great turmoil and tragedy to "look for the helpers".  Wherever else God may be in the tragedy God is there.  Look for the helpers.

My prayers and thoughts go out to all who are in Japan .     

This is a statement from this article ------On March 11, the God who controls the world slipped between the cracks and beneath the waves. 

It is to my understanding from these scriptures that God created us in His Image and gave US CONTROL OVER THIS Earth--not Himself

Genesis 1 v    ²⁶ Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,^[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

 ²⁷ So God created mankind in his own image, 
   in the image of God he created them;
   male and female he created them.

God didn't build these houses ----and buildings and dangerous power plants ---we did ----Did we ask God if we should build these thing in the areas that they were build or did we Humans just go ahead and build where WE WANTED ---Paying no mind to asking God's advice. The Bible tells us how and where we should build our structures to ensure safety in times of earthly turmoils ----

   The Parable of the builders  Matthew 7 v

So when disaster strikes it is God or us -----We humans have to take some responsibilites for our own actions and stop blaming God when we go ahead and thake it upon our own understanding to erect cities without consulting the one who knows all about us and the earth. Just maybe God is trying to get our attention to show us that we humans are not as smart as we think we are ----all the education in the world is of no use when the earth moves and the seas rise BUT GOD IS THERE FOR US ---TO SHOW AND EDUCATE US on how to build a safe and happy world if we ask Him to. ----

Did you ever look at the word  ASK ---A is for ask--- --S is for  seek  ----K is for knock--and the door shall be open ---IF we don't sak the door stays shut.

Blessings  

 Unsafe wrote: 

 "God didn't build these houses ----and buildings and dangerous power plants ---we did ----Did we ask God if we should build these thing in the areas that they were build or did we Humans just go ahead and build where WE WANTED ---Paying no mind to asking God's advice. The Bible tells us how and where we should build our structures to ensure safety in times of earthly turmoils" ----

So are you saying if the people of Japan asked god where to build he would have told them?

Wow I didn't know the bible has its own building code. I guess I might rely on the bible if I was building a house of cards but i would tend to rely on people who actually build houses for a living for advise on how to go about building a real house.

This will stay with me.

Of course God would choose love over control.

Control has at it's core fear - which is the enemy of love.

May we all choose love over control.

Hi dreamerman   Your Quote    Wow I didn't know the bible has its own building code. I guess I might rely on the bible if I was building a house of cards but i would tend to rely on people who actually build houses for a living for advise on how to go about building a real house.

You should take some time to read The Bible it does have a lot of great building codes that comes with a guarantee  -----Noah was building a boat ----God told him what wood to use----gave him very detailed instructions as to the size---where to put the doors and windows etc and what did Noah do ---HE OBEYED and was saved along with his family

Your quote says it all -----but i would tend to rely on people who actually build houses for a living for advise on how to go about building a real house. WELL dreamerman you better hope that the earth doesn't shake and the waters don't rise in your area cause your human built home will crumble and fall ----OUR CHOICE ---free will to choose .

And dreamerman looked what happened -----those great educated people are reduced to what almost nothing ----they said Japan has the highest and very strict building codes ---but is no match for the power of shaking earth and rising water . I would rather do what my Father in Heaven told me to do then rely on some education that makes us think we are smarter than God . You can have all the degrees in the world behind your name will that protect from what happened in Japan  ---I leave you to answer that for yourself -----

Peace to you dreamerman

 I do not know where God was. But it involved a chain of events and we all have our frailties.

Many people will be involved in the rebuilding and compromises will have to be made. I just pray for compassion and harmony in the readjustment and rebuilding. No small task and resources are limited.

Hi Unsafe,

There are parts of your post that I definitely agree with, but I have to say the timing may be wrong for this to be pointed out. We humans screw up many times, but to have it pointed out in the midst of our mistakes doesn't do anyone any good.

I think we are called now to give reassurance and be compassionate. In God's infinite wisdom he gave us each other.

I just like to say unsafe that I am glad I don't consider myself a christian anymore. If I have to think like you to be considered a christian then I will stay well clear. You do realize the Noah's Ark thing is a story, myth or fable take your pick.

By the way unsafe we cannot all live in the mountains. Is that where you live? Your head seems to be in the clouds at times.

Actually, it does.

Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it

Matthew 7:24-27

Woe unto him that buildeth his house by unrighteousness...

Jeremiah 22:13

See.

Hi dreamerman   Your Quote -- You do realize the Noah's Ark thing is a story, myth or fable take your pick.

It may be to you but Not to me . Nice try though.

The question ask by Aaron, and before him, by our former moderator is 'Where was God when the earth shook and the waters rushed in?' 

I think that God was right there in the midst of the suffering.  God was with the elderly man I saw on the news tonight telling that he had lost his wfie, his children, his grandchildren, everybody.  God was with the couple anxiously searching through the rubble that was their home town for the post office where their son was working when the tsunami hit, and the couple pointing across the rubble in the direction of the daycare where they children were and hopeing that the workers had gotten the children out and to higher ground.  God was there with them, weeping with them when they felt their faint hope seeping away.   God is with those who stayed behind in the nuclear plants, endangering their lives, as they try to contain the radiation.  And God is with all those waiting anxiously to hear of loved ones, trying to exit the most dangerous areas with nothing but what they can carry, and with the others in various parts of Japan trying to return to their jobs and to maintain a sense of order in a world turned upside down.  

Where was God when we killed the cow to eat for steak and eggs breakfast?  The  same place God was when a town of 17,000 was wiped off the map.

We are miserable, lets get used to it.  God is the ability to know what misery is.

^ ^ ^ seeler's post

(for me, to try to point towards a where was G_d in all of this in an external existing force/being sense is to take an alienist position, to severely demean and belittle the human context, which is THE VITALLY IMPORTANT PART.  To me)

Although there is much that I love about the past Moderator's letter, and the usage of it today, there are also a key point, which I read into it, which I do not agree with and hence, I have not shared this letter.

I believe that the earthquake and tsunamai are not a result of an action by God (first quote) nor a choice God made (2nd quote)

 They are simply the functioning of our planet

 Well said Pinga!  

The forces released in that earthquake were geological forces not divine forces.  They are forces that have been building and building over vast periods of time measured in thousands of years.  It is infantile to speak of the Tsunami as an action carried out by God's choice.

My wife and I were, just yesterday, discussing how this misguided "biblical" interpretation would quickly emerge after the catastrophe.  It explains nothing, provides less than zero comfort, creates irrational fear and does nobody any good. 

I find it fascinating how the same letter is interpreted in different ways.

Much of communication is a mystery. Maybe it's next to impossible to infer correctly what was implied?

Makes me wish the writer was in the room with me to question further...........

Yeah, it's like here we all are at an art museum, admiring the exact same work of art, and each of us having our own take on it, and sombunall of us might think that their take is actually an inherent part of the art, while sombunall of us might be able to take delight that our take comes from us ourselves and be able to fool around with that take...try on another for size and see what happens :3

Hi Pilgrim's Progress.

Minor note: you had it quoted as Aaron; however, this wasn't written by Aaron, but rather, passed on to him from the United Church of Canada site.

Although much of the letter was wonderful, that perspective that God caused this, made a choice for an earthquake/tsunamai to occur is one that is being thrown around, and which I find hurtful.

it takes me back to the conversations of why did a baby die or another one live or live but with severe health issues......the language that God chose it is, in my opinion, quite harmful, hurtful and just wrong.  I recognize that there are ministers on this site and within our denomination who follow this theology of God being a symphony director.  It is not a theology that rests easy with me.

 Here is another take on God as symphony director ...

A Tsunami of Good News

No wonder I feel dizzy

A few days ago the Pacific Ocean

Rose up and killed about 100,000 in Japan

Today they say the world is spinning faster  

And with a slight wobble

Apparently the earth collapsed toward its centre

The earth tilted on its axis

And Japan is now 13 feet closer to Vancouver

Things everywhere seem to be breaking loose

Our world is even more off-centre than ever and making less sense

Than those ships sitting in farmers’ fields near Sendai

People are saying it will stimulate the Japanese economy

Because … praise be!  … inflation will bring prosperity

Think of all the economic activity to come

Only a nuclear meltdown could achieve greater economic stimulus

For strange are the ways of the Lord.

 Actually this is the take of another religion ... the religion of global finance and transnationional corporations and capital flows.  Cynical and callous to suffering but appreciative of good opportunities for corporate profits.

qwerty,

PRAISE G_D AND PASS THE FISCAL PORTFOLIO! :3

(but a bit more seriously here:  science is going to help them and remember, science is amoral.  capitalism is amoral as well, and it will be helping them.  so I think that, just like stopping attributing to G_d to this disaster, we've gotta avoid it with other areas, which are amoral, yet still can help -- as well as hinder, of course, of course.  now, back to your regularly scheduled programming)

As I said on Sunday (posted as a blog), to me God is a large circle and we are inside that,e verything is inside that. 

Where was God? Where God always is, everywhere! There is nowhere God is not.

God was in the ground, in the waves... part of God washed out to sea... part of God had to let a hand go that meant the world.... God works in those who rescue others.... God is in the tears that fall....God works inside a nuclear plant... God cries with those who mourn... God trembles with those who are scared... God will bury her dead....God will provide hope to his children...God IS.

   Hi waterfall ---Your Quote   -There are parts of your post that I definitely agree with, but I have to say the timing may be wrong for this to be pointed out. We humans screw up many times, but to have it pointed out in the midst of our mistakes doesn't do anyone any good.

I understand what you are saying ---I was responding to this post as others have done giving their views including yourself . If I didn't respond the way you perceive I should then maybe this post should not have been posted ---It is making an accusation that I personally don't agree with and I responded to that and I answered  dreamerman's response to me if people are upset then I'm sorry but I believe and stand by what I posted .

 This comment you made --- We humans screw up many times, but to have it pointed out in the midst of our mistakes doesn't do anyone any good.  I totally disagree with you here ---If the mistake is not pointed out at the time of the mistake then we may not learn and continue to make the mistake ---your view may be different but that is my view and learning from our mistakes is key . ---I am responding to an article and we all have different views on it I don't feel I'm hurting anyone simply pointing out what I believe and what The Bible says ----- I'm responding to an article and answering comments made to me directly .

I leave you with this ---- Commentary on Luke 13:1-5-  

Matthew Henry’s Concise Commentary

Mention was made to Christ of the death of some Galileans. This tragical story is briefly related here, and is not met with in any historians. In Christ's reply he spoke of another event, which, like it, gave an instance of people taken away by sudden death. Towers, that are built for safety, often prove to be men's destruction. He cautioned his hearers not to blame great sufferers, as if they were therefore to be accounted great sinners. As no place or employment can secure from the stroke of death, we should consider the sudden removals of others as warnings to ourselves. On these accounts Christ founded a call to repentance. The same Jesus that bids us repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand, bids us repent, for otherwise we shall perish.

 For anyone reading this one, I wont' bother engaging unsafe; however, I don't agree with him.  Just saying....

Hi Unsafe do you feel the events that recently happened in Japan have anything to do with them not heeding the word of the Lord? I know that you didn't come right out and say so but from what I have been seeing in your replies kind of suggests it. Correct me if I am wrong and I will be first to admit I have been wrong on many occasions.

BTW my parents also believe the Noah's Ark story was an actual historical event. This is one reason why I try not to engage them in religious talk. I think someone was on to something when they said two things that you don't discuss at the dinner table are religion and politics.

Anyway I don't think God was anywhere when the earthquake happened in Japan. If God is to be somewhere then it is in the unknown space where humans fear to tread. Actually I am less concerned where God is and more concerned about the well being of people and the planet as a whole. So lets go about the business of healing the nations and let God sort out God's whereabouts.

I find this strange - who updated this?  and some of the theology is very troubling...

Hi dreamerman   Your Quote  ;  Hi Unsafe do you feel the events that recently happened in Japan have anything to do with them not heeding the word of the Lord?

I feel that we are in the End Times and there is much more to come to all the world. 

I believe we humans are our own worst enemy we are destroying ourselves    

God gave humans control of this earth ---which is the world ----so God didn't slip between the cracks and the waves ---We humans did -----We have no control over earthquakes etc but we do have control over our own destiny and we humans need to take responsibility for our own messes we create --God gives us instructions on how to remain safe and secure in our homes and out of our homes if we humans choose not  to believe in a God or in His word then that is our choice and we will reap the consequences . God is always tugging on us to come to Him ----This world is a mess and we humans created it by thinking we are smart and cleaver with our world knowledge but God I believe is showing us we aren't so smart and cleaver and all we have can be destroyed in a second  God is tugging on us to Ask ---Seek ---and Knock get the door open --to safety--peace--joy--health--prosperity--and eternal life ---If we don't the door will stay shut and we will reap those benifits.                 

 Well if we are in the End Times there can't really be very much more.  So which is it, "End Times" or "much more to come"?  

I do agree with you though, unsafe, that there is nothing like an earthquake followed by a tsunami to instill humility.

Pinga,

Yes, I realise the letter wasn't written by Aaron. - I was quoting from Aaron' s post.

I didn't infer from the letter that the writer "made a choice for an earthquake to occur?" Rather that God wasn't in the business of control.

It reminded me of the rabbi who wrote "Why do bad things happen to good people?". His take was that maybe it's faulty thinking to see God as all powerful.

It's a natural assumption for many to make - to see God as a "Super Daddy" - but the Rabbi suggests - and I agree - that God is not all powerful.

In fact, I don't believe God has human characteristics. To me, God is a concept for the mystery and the awe, perhaps in some way a Creator?

Whatever was implied by the writer - only he knows for sure.

dreamerman - I wonder who updated it - Peter or someone else.  Pinga has named the part that is theologically unhelpful and troubling.

If we had seen Japans tsunami crashing onto empty shores instead of villages we would be spellbound with God's power and the wonders of the earth, but instead we are appalled that God would allow a wave to destroy villages.

We co exist with nature and we need to accept that nature does not purposely overcome us. It's not personal, we get in the way sometimes, these things would happen whether we were there or not. Tsunamis don't pursue us, nor do earthquakes or volcanoes.

Our faith should not come from playing innocent and pretending that the nature of God's earth should change it's nature to accomadate what we expect.  Instead we choose to struggle with our rationalization that God needs forgiveness for the very nature of the waves on the water.

My agnostic stance is that there is no God involved at all, only powerful natural processes that are at once both destructive and creative/tranformative. The world we live in would not exist as we know without tectonic forces so we need to learn how to understand them and live with them. As waterfall said, if it had happened in an unhabited or minimally inhabited region we would be able to sit back and watch in awe at the power of these natural forces that have helped shape our world. Our human response is clear. We must help those who need help and learn from the experience so we can, perhaps, be better prepared for the next one (and there will be a next one because these process will not end until the Earth does). Human love and compassion are also a powerful natural forces as is our intellect. Using these together, we can prepare for and deal with these events even though we cannot stop them from happening.

If I was to take a theistic stance, I wouldn't see God as the cause of the earthquake that is at the root of it all, nor as failing to stop it. Earthquakes, like human actions, are creative (or at least transformative) processes and contribute to the overall process of creation even though they may be destructive to our society. As stated above, the world would not be as it is without tectonic forces. God would, in this view, be the voice of love guiding the world to a better place, not the master controller who makes all things happen. God feels the pain and moves us to deal with it. God acts out of love to guide us to act out of compassion to assist the victims and to help us see our way to learning and preparing based on what we have seen and heard.

Mendalla

Right on - those parts really bothered me too- he is stuck in the old model of God and it is bad theodicy.

Of course God had no control by defination - only works with what is persuasively.

Again a better insight than Shorts.

PP I think theologically the theodicy the writer used can only be interpreted the way many here have - God caused it - bad theology - or God is absent  as in deism - bad theology.  As many have pointed out this is a natural experience - the way nature works and nature has no intention in the moral sense - it just works as it does.

This is why I have problems when one personalizes nature - as a spiritual reality.

A lot of interesting comments here.  Along with many who have expressed the thought, I do not believe God caused the earthquake and subsequent loss, death, suffering, and tragedy for the nation of Japan.  I do believe, as others have expressed, that in their loss, death, suffering, and tragedy, that God is there, that God cares, that God loves them.  I believe God will bring help and healing to these people, not in the wave of a magic wand, but rather through the hands, the feet, the pocket books, the provision, and the love of others in their country and from around the world.

As I was thinking about this, though, my thoughts went to the New Creed - specifically the words "We are not alone, we live in God's world, we believe in God:  who has created and is creating . . . "

I believe God created the world.  But as I was pondering this the question made its way into my mind "why did God create an imperfect earth . . . a place that would hold so many and such a variety of natural disasters where God's people would dwell"?

Often wondered that myself Beloved. The lure of water and mountains instead of the dessert. Life sustaining elements that involve a choice of risk or respect for nature.

A thought (and only a thought, since it's about God and I'm an agnostic):

Because creation/evolution is impossible without some chaos; without some kind of change that is beyond control, even the control of God. After all, our own existence is at least partially owed to the extinction of the dinosaurs (whether that was due to an asteriod strike or other cause). Did God not shed a tear at the loss of an entire group of species that had dominated the world for something like 100 million years? The asteriod was an event beyond God's power; an event that changed the course of evolution. I'm sure God could have allowed the dinos to live if it were possible for God to do so.

The natural catastrophes that afflict us are not different. The world is a changing evolving place and that change/evolution cannot happen without some measure of chaos. God does not control growth and change, only guides it and our response to it.

Let's not forget that we ourselves are something of a natural catastrophe. Whole species are dying because of our activity in the world. I'm sure God sheds a tear for them. I'm sure God is trying to guide us to use our creative power more carefully and responsibly. But God cannot stop us because the only way to do so would be to lose that creative power entirely and that is also not a desirable outcome.

Mendalla

Mendalla nice (  you really are a panentheist) 

Beloved ( and others) think of it this way - In the creative act or the aim of God for more novel experience, God offers a possiblity of an more interesting life to each actual thing in each moment.... that aim is one among other possibilities that have emerged naturally.  In encouraging more novel experience that opens reality up to more missteps.  As David points out, evolution cannot happen without some chaos, and in each emerging step there are possiblities for new chaos as well as new harmony - more intensity can go  to beauty or to chaos, or both in the same moment.

God's power is only that of persuasion - offering to each moment the possibities to more novel, beautiful, compassionate, just reality.  How that gets worked out is in the response of each actual entity ( humans for one) and that is what we and God have to work with in the next moment of experience.

Some kids after church had the same question. They were thankfully talked to about the earth's makeup by a church member who is also a geology teacher.  The kids asked him. He stepped up and showed science and God do not have to oppose each other. He explained how the core has to be warm and if it is warm you have to have a mantle between that core and the crust and how the crust has to have plates. There is a continental plate, so we have a place to live, and an ocean plate. The kids know how important oceans and water are to us. He showed them how plates can move and yes it means earthquakes and volcanoes and yet you have to have them.

He smiled when he told them God could have created a far better earth, but we would not have been able to live on it....

Thanks to all above for your comments on the question I posed.

The idea that evolution/change does not take place without some chaos offers some explanation.

Thanks, SG, for sharing the children's story and the simple explanation from the geology teacher . . . I guess I must be a child at heart, because it spoke to me and made sense to me !

Maybe, maybe not. Panentheism and pantheism are about the only theistic interpretations of existence that make sense to me anymore. Traditional theism just doesn't give answers to the questions in a way that tallies with my experience of existence. That said, I'm sticking with agnostic as my "label' for now. I'm not at all certain whether I will ever be certain about anything theological.

Mendalla

Walter Brueggeman's magisterial Old  Testament theology has a wonderful discussion of the biblical teaching that God mitigates,  but does not control the forces of chaos.  I agree that God should not be blamed for Japan's earthquake and  tsunami.   But we must not pontificate on this issue.  The Bible makes it clear that God's ways and thoughts and not like ours. These kind of discussions assume that, for God, the anthropocentric perspective is determinative.  But God may have purposes in Nature that have nothing to do with our best interests.  I don't believe the Bible teaches divine omnipotence in the popular sense, but it is precarious to presume specific limitations on God's power as a definitive explanation of why the world is the way it is and why it affects us the way it does.

I couldn't agree more. As I started to read through the letter I was struck by how much it did not speak to my worldview. Unfortunately when you don't agree with a foundational premise, the good points get lost...cms

Sorry, Pan - but yours (and others) inferences aren't enough to convince me.

It's still a matter that, for me, needs clarification.

If God caused it, why would He cry? Only the writer can tell us what he meant to imply.

Without him doing so, I'm unwilling to criticise.

In all honesty, I sometimes feel that there are times at Wondercafe, when folks "use" another's post as an opportunity to present the "rightness" of their own particular theology.

I don't accept that as a "fair go".

Pilgrim's Progress,

I struggled a bit with what exactly Peter was trying to say and concluded that I found it rather muddled however my interpretation of "There is nowhere to lodge the meaning or lay the blame, except at the doorstep of God. Who else can shake the foundations of the world?" is that God is responsible for the disaster.

I would welcome some clarification from the writer but don't expect to receive any so I'm left with my interpretation and feelings about it. 

Quite honestly, I don’t find any more comfort in those beliefs and opinions than I do from the scientific explanations. I have also never met anyone who was at peace with suffering because of a specific idea or theology.  If anyone is there is something terribly wrong. 

"Now we must do what we can to help. When our common and frail humanity moves us to work side by side..."

PP fair enough - but maybe as Meredith points out with this quote"There is nowhere to lodge the meaning or lay the blame, except at the doorstep of God. Who else can shake the foundations of the world?" is that God is responsible for the disaster.

This the logic of the statement - blame means a causual factor in what happened.  Now you maybe correct the writer was not clear and this statement not what he meant - however when this is all we have then the logic is God is to blame and from my perspective the theodicy is a problem.  Beresk tries to suggest a revision of this causal connection from his quote - but when one gives up control, as the free will theists do, then the causality is changed - now the other issue does God give up control or that the metaphysical given - freedom is not given but comes with actuality.  Thus God does work with what is and has to deal with the freedom nature has - nature will do what it does.

PP, although, I think there is also context here...if that is the correct word.  In other words, some of us are sensitive to certain language being used in our denominations writing, and also, have a sense of history of some writers.

Now, we could be misinterpreting, that is possible; however, if we have, it is highly probable that those in our church circles will have a similair interpretation