See, I don't get this either, CH. My goal is to have sufficient resources to meet my necessities plus enough to enjoy the things I enjoy (books, movies, travel) and maybe some to give back through my church or other activities. Of course, I'm saving to make sure I still have that amount of money when I retire but I'm not aiming to be "rich" or anything. I don't envy the Blacks and Murdochs and Gates of the world (or lesser weathy folk like the man who owns my employer). They are welcome to their money. It's not that I couldn't do a lot in my life and other's with the money. It's just that I don't get putting the effort and energy to get that rich when you can live as well and do good on much less. I'd rather spend that time and energy on things I enjoy than sink more of it into obtaining wealth I don't really need.

Mendalla

My goal is to give my kids a leg up. We have money set aside for their educations. We have a large chunk of our home paid off. We have money set aside for a comfortable retirement, and potentially to cover for a rainy day. These funds are already coming in handy.

Worrying about money is not something I want to do. I've lived frugally, and I've lived foolishly, and I think we're been somewhere comfortably in-between these last few years. With my wife laid off for almost 8 months now, and me not working with Carter in the hospital, I can't imagine having to work full time through this. Only our nest egg lets me do this - for a while. Property taxes and utility bills tend not to care about your problems.

I would note that the thread title says something. It presumes that the answer to "Do we need to be rich?" is yes.  And yet as I read the OP  I think that this is the real question being asked (and is , IMO, the more important question).

But the cultural presumption is that the answer to "Do we..." is yes and so we ask "Why do we...". 

Then again there is the question of "what does it mean to be RICH?"

The economic system we have is designed for Greed and Power ---money gives us both ----This is this worlds system --

-God's system is set up to have enough for yourself  and any overflow is to help others ----God does not drop money out of the sky ---we have to earn it and God provides us with the Grace to get promoted ----be successful in our job which gives us raises etc. to Help Others ------  

God provides us with the power to get  wealth to be a blessing to others ----We are suppose to help our neighbour ---if a person can't buy groceries ---put oil in their tank to keep warm -buy cloths etc . God will supply us with enough wealth to sustain ourselves and the extra is ----Not for US it is to help others .  

Exactly, Gord, what is rich and why do we need to be rich?

I have seen people who are comfortable but are not wealthy looked down upon because they are seen as"poor"

I have all see people who are wealthy looked down upon because they are "rich"

Why  are the words  rich and poor worrds that carry a stigma with them.

Also why do we judge people by their material wealth?

I suppose it depends on how we define rich.  Compared to most of the world, the average Canadian is incredibly wealthy.  Still, most of us want more money.  Off the top of my head, I can think of 4 big reasons that people want more money: they want more (or better) freedom, security, experiences or stuff.

Freedom = not having to do things you don't want to do, and being able to do things you do want to do.  It means quitting that job you hate, hiring someone else to come in and clean your house, sleeping past noon every day, etc.  For a lot of people, the idea of getting out of unpleasant day to day stuff is very attractive.

Security = not having to worry "What if?" anymore.  The roof leaks?  No problem.  Car breaks down?  No problem.  Kid wants to be a brain surgeon?  No problem.  The money is there to take care of any financial needs that could potentially arise.

Experiences = having fun and/or learning new things.  It's spending the summer in Italy just because you want to or going to fancy restaurants to eat gourmet foods.  It's bungee jumping or going to the spa or travelling around following a band on a concert tour...whatever experiences you want are yours to have because you can afford them.

Stuff = the things we have.  More money means we can have more things and nicer things.  Some of these things can be frivolous, but others can be useful.  We can indulge our aesthetics by decorating our homes to suit us, we can get cars that are flashier...or more comfortable...or more environmentally friendly.  More money means more choices and getting exactly what we want.

I know that I've been incredibly lucky througout my life where money is concerned. I grew up in a working class family, but my parents had fully paid off the house.  We had a little more than the families around me, so my brother and I had some nice toys and we got to go on a family trip every summer (usually to southern Ontario to go to museums, pioneer villages, Canada's Wonderland once it opened, etc.)  As an adult I managed to get through university with very little debt because I stayed home and had a very helpful grandmother, then when I started teaching I started at a pretty reasonable salary.  I've never had to live on minimum wage.  I've never had to worry too much about spending and even splurging a bit.  My basic needs have never been in question and emergencies (like a car break down or the furnance and air conditioner both needing to be replaced) we handled fairly easily, in part by help from family and in part because there was enough money to make monthly payments on the line of credit.  

But...yes, I want more.  Part of me feels horrible for that because I do know that I already have so much, but it's true.  I'd like to have enough to be able to afford someone coming in to clean once a week, because I HATE cleaning.  I'd like to be able to do some work and renovations around the house.  These aren't essential things related to functioning; I want to repave my driveway because a lot of weeds are starting to come up between the bricks.  I want to fix up the bathrooms to make them prettier and more comfortable, even though they are perfectly functional.  I'd like to replace the carpet throughout the house...it's not in bad shape, but I just don't really like it.  I'd like to get a new dishwasher.  It still works, but it's old and the racks are getting rusty, and I'm sure there are models that are much more environmentally friendly available now.  

Beyond that, I'd love to be able to travel more.  I'd love to have a cottage to go to in the summer, and to have my own pottery studio and kiln there (I would love to get back in to pottery).  I'd love to not have to work anymore.  I'd love to be able to take classes at universities and colleges, just for the fun of it.  I'd love to have a house with a bigger yard and a big front window (mine is one of those houses that looks like a big garage, and then you notice there is a house behind it).  

My "rich line" in my mind is about $4 million.  If I had $4 million I could earn about $80,000/year in interest which would be a nice income.  It would provide all that security and freedom, I could fix up the house as I want it or move, and I could experience all kinds of cool things and take care of Rachel's future needs as well.  Would it really be good for me?  Probably not.  Still, I wouldn't mind finding out.

Meanwhile a single mother in a developing country sends her two daughters on a 3 hour walk (each way) for water every day and lives in a shack while her sons scavenge in the local dump for bits of metal that they can sell.  I want to help this family.  Really, I do.  But...I still want more.  *sigh*

That you shall have life and have it in great abundance.

Some time ago I read (or heard) that most people think they would be happy if they earned just 10% more.  I thought about it.  When my husband and I were earning about $6000 a year and hoping to be accepted for public housing, I dreamed of earning $10000.  Then we would be able to afford a decent apartment or look forward to owning our own home.

When our income did improve and we did manage to buy of modest home, I thought about what I could do with a few thousand more.  Like new furniture - or steak once a month - or a restaurant meal - or a camping trip or vacation. 

Yes, just a little bit more, and I could be happy.

More recently I heard that the general happiness of a population does not depend so much on the average income, as it does on the gap between the rich and poor.  In fact that gap seems to define our idea of what is rich and what is poor.  In the railroad community where I grew up, rich meant a big house with indoor plumbing and central heating.  It meant owning a car, having a new coat every fall, taking a vacation.  And poor was that big family down the road whose father drank his pay cheque. 

Perhaps, when thinking of how much riches we need we should look at what we do with our abundance.  Do we save it for ourselves, our future, our children?  Or do we use it to help others?   And how willing are we to trust others collectively to provide for us if we are in need (Medicare, employment insurance, Old Age pension)?    And what kind of a society do we wish to live in?

crazyheart,

the richer one is, the more they are able to use their money to help a larger and larger amount of people...

Gaining wealth gives us a goal in life.

This sounds logical Inanna - the possibility of using wealth to help a greater number of people.  But it raises questions with me.  How did they obtain their wealth?  Did it involve exploiting people or natural resources?  (slum landlord, dope dealer, business investments in sweat shops in foreign countries, poluting rivers, selling inferior products, sonvincing people that they need something you are selling, influencing governments to pass laws in your favour rather than for the greater good)  

The other question might be, how much of their wealth are they using to help that greater number of people?   What restrictions do they place on their aid?  And how much do they have left for continuing to live in luxury while some people are still struggling for the basic necessities?

To me there are two basic questions about wealth:  how it was obtained and how it is used.

That also ties in with how much trust the state has in the individual -- do they adopt a more Free Market economy, one that trusts the individual to make their own choices (but also seems, at least right now, to be predicated on everyone being quite skilled at finances and making rational decisions), or a more socialist approach that only trusts the individual so much...

Not much of a goal though. Basically amounts to "get more stuff", doesn't it? How much stuff do you need to be able to achieve that goal? What happens when you get there? Or is it open ended and you just keep acquiring money and stuff until you drop?

To me, a goal is something like "get my Ph.D" or "move up in my career" or "get my  weight, blood sugar and pressure under control".  It's definable, it's achievable, and it opens up possibilities for new goals once you get there.

Mendalla

I don't have the desire to be 'rich'.  My desires may be what others classify as being rich though.

The biggest thing for me is financial security.  I am a natural 'saver' and the assests I would like available to me is likely higher than what other people would like to feel secure.  I am fairly debt-adverse.  I want money for retirement, I want to feel covered for an emergency.  Unexpectedly, I was sick for a quite a while and had my income reduced by more than half.  Also, as I have mentioned before, medical costs are not free here.  My required non-prescription medications cost a fair amount each month, plus prescription medication isn't fully covered by most plans, and they aren't always covered under a plan.  I bought an air conditioner a while ago as my husband felt I really needed it.  Looking back, medically it has been quite neccessary.  Even with the Canada Health Act (officially, we do not have 'medicare'), there are issues.  I waited a long time for a MRI, if I felt like something could have been done to help sooner, I would have been willing to pay to get one done privately.  Some treatments aren't available here, and people do travel to the US to get medically neccessary treatments completed.  Sometimes they get reimbursed (they still have to fund it initially), sometimes they do not.

I do also have wants.  What I would like in a house may put me in the 'rich' class, depending on who you ask.  I don't feel like it's way out there.  If I were to have children, I would want to be able to provide certain things for them, including education.  I would like to be able to buy a car if the unexpected happens to my current one.  I consider it to be a need, as sometimes public transit becomes quite difficult due to medical issues.  Also, it doesn't always get you where you need to be easily.

If people think that I want to be rich, it doesn't really bother me; even though to me I don't see it as being rich.  I don't want a new flashy car every year, I don't want a cook, private personal trainer, nanny for my kids, driver, etc.  I don't want a mansion.  I don't want to jetset around the world.  My definition of rich is different than others.  I don't appreciate being judged for my wants though.

The pursuit of greed and money is an opiate.  It's also a joke. Bad opium. 

Thou canst not serve mammon and G-d.  Mammon being money.  Serve G-d first and you will receive such abundance that your cup shall overflow.

Your buddy on the path - Poguru

I wonder, and I think it's a relevant question in the context of this thread, where is the line between getting the money you need and serving Mammon?

Mendalla

Actually I already feel rich.  I have far more material possessions than my ancestors dreamed of - adequate house, decent car, food security for the forseeable future, adequate clothing - and, most importantly, a lack of yearning for expensive holidays in exotic places, a fancier house and car, more clothing than I need etc.

My choice through the years has been to try to be mindful of how I spent the available money - choosing to NOT buy on impulse and to NOT buy things that were beyond my ability to pay for with cash (though I had a house mortgage and a partial loan once for a car).  I am quite contented with not buying comvenience foods and meals out on a regular basis.  Choosing to NOT have these things makes it possible for me to choose other things I enjoy more and makes it possible for me to donate to certain charities that I think important. 

Basically I think we humans have a built in tendency to greed and laziness - I'm finding though that they don't tempt me quite as much now that I've had plenty of life experiences and opportunities to try different things.  It could be that controlling one's greed and laziness is getting harder as more generations are raised to 'put themselves first'.

Do we need to eat? Yes. The question is - at what point does eating become that end in itself we call gluttony?

At one point does rich mean concern only for onself at whatever cost to others?

When I was twelve, my grandfather had a twelve year old car, and the plates at dinner were actually full. He was rich.

Hi Mendalla,

You asked "where is the line between getting the money you need and serving Mammon?"

The line is in your heart.  Hope this helps.

Your buddy on the path - Poguru

I must echo Chansen's comments.  Having a security buffer has come in very handy. Life can hand you some crap and it is nice to have some wiggle room.

My husband and I graduated from school (two degrees each) with virtually no debt.  We were extremely fortunate and landed good jobs quickly after graduation and have made good financial decisions throughout most of our adult lives.  Outside of a mortgage we have no debt and have lived within or below our means for all of our twenty year marriage (thus far!).  This helped a great deal when I had to quit my job when Matthew got very ill.  We have always made financial decisions based on having one salary.  Like chansen we have saved for our kids' education (their undergrad degrees are paid for), have solid retirement savings, have an emergency fund and now, in our forties, we are starting to do some fun things that cost some money (we are taking our first family cruise this winter).  A lot of this is just plain dumb luck (good family upbringing, born in an affluent country, we were strong students who liked school, right degrees etc) coupled with a tendency to save.

In short, I feel rich and I am rich.  I do try to use my money for good.  I believe it brings with it responsibility to make good decisions ranging from purchasing my groceries ethically to supporting key charities that capture my values.  In terms of purchasing "stuff" I prefer to spend money on experiences and opportunities rather than things wherever possible, though I do appreciate my creature comforts like most people.

I find this thread interesting and compelling.  I live with a strong sense of ambivalence about my affluence.  I appreciate my very priveleged life but yet I read about Dhalit girls in India (to name one example) who do not have clean water, access to education, and basic human rights and my heart breaks. 

Katherine Boo:  Behind the Beautiful Forevers

a tale of corruption, survival, racism, nationalism and the glimmers of hope & compassion

Make that "comfortable" rather than rich, and I'm all the way with DaisyJane.

This was not the case when I was a child. Then we I lived from pay-cheque to pay-cheque. Money was often talked about - as it is when there isn't enough to provide a security buffer.

There were lessons in social humiliation that stay with you and give you the impetus to change your situation.

I'm remembering one time when we couldn't afford a new pair of school shoes - and my Nana sent us a pair of hers for me to wear in High School. They had "old lady" thick heels and this smart arse kid kept chanting "tractor shoes"........

There are families, when it's not so much the lack of income - but the inability to handle it well. These kids suffer just as much as "poor" kids, but tend to get less sympathy because their parents earn enough........

I agree with Daisy re spending money on experiences, rather than "stuff". Experiences such as travel, holidays, attending hobby and educational classes, matter far more to me than "updating" furniture, kitchens, bathrooms, etc..........

I give regular donations to my favourite charities. (And, believe you me, it's infinitely better than having to be in a position to be a recipient of charity.)

Which is why I believe strongly in income taxation as being a better way of equalising society.......

I don't really care all that much about being rich -- although I would like to be comfortable.

I would like it if my wife and I had our own house to live in. I would like it if we could more easily pay our bills when they are due.

For the most part, though, I'm just very thankful for all that we do have. A roof over our heads, a nice car, food in our bellies, a pool to swim in in the hot Toronto summer, a Christian university education for me, money to tithe to our churches, and more.

What I'm most thankful for in my life are the people who share it with me. My family and friends, and my enemies.

Rich blessings.

Everyone should be rich.

It’s the greed that deprives:

The superfluities —

shaped by profit-taking,

speculative appropriation

and abusive greed —

from babies’ mothers’ milk

from the shoes of children,

from the scrapings of cooking pots,

and the fields of subsistence,

the medicines of the invalid poor,

the birthrights of first peoples,

from the once-crystal streams

the once-sweet, clean air

from soils time formed and nurtured…

there is no need for poverty.

Everyone should be rich.

Innana - seems lately you have embraced inscrutable Presence & want to share that, or my iPhone won't show imbedded vids.
Either way, empty comment boxes are refreshing around here. Rests my eyes. Kudos.

ps - of course, I also enjoy your talk box when it's full too.

Okay . . . well I want to be rich!  And yup, I mean money!  But not for selfish reasons.  I have more than I need right now . . . a roof over my head, lots to eat, lots of clothes, possessions, and enough to not have to worry from month to month.  So I don't want millions for me.  I want millions so that when I am gone there is enough money in the bank to care for my child with special needs sufficiently and adequately . . . people to take care of her needs and enough money so she is comfortable.  Right now I have some family members that will help her at that time, but what if they are ill or gone . . . so, I want enough that she has enough money to pay for support to get her through her lifetime . . . yes, social services would help, but I know how much financial support there is there for people with disabilities  . . .

I guess I won't ever have those riches or millions, so I will trust in God, in whom I will place my trust and hope for my child's future, and in whom all riches are found :)

Inanna is posting "flash videos". Cannot be viewed from iPad or iPhone.

I've been wondering about buying that book? Has anyone read it?

I'm tired of people telling me what I should have and what I need for tomorrow.  What if I don't even want to retire at 65? or whatever age?  Some people work past that age because they can and want to.  These same people are shocked that I contribute financially to the charities that I do and don't invest in what they think I should! I have everything I need and alot more that I could definately do without!  Rich?  I've had some Christmases with more than enough money and others that had little.  The Christmases where there was little were easier and held more joy because there was less choices to have to make when everything was determined by how much was available to spend.  Christmas Eve would be so joyous because I would be so grateful to God for all that I had.  If I was "rich" I would be bored and unfulfilled.

well non of you need to be Rich, just hand everyting over to me, I'll deal with it 

I'm still working on being "comfortable." After that, then we can talk.

Do you think the reason why iPad n iPhones cannot view them is because Flash isn't supported by these devices?

the vids can be found on youtube

in order of appearance:

William McDonough:  the Wisdom of Designing
(it's a TED talk)

What We Believe, part 3:  Wealth Creation

A short history of Wealth & Power

(Here's a technology that I'm looking forward to...)

Yuppers, I rented it from the Library.  There was a LONG wait for it as well. I finished it in 2 days

I always like reading people's accounts of life in other societies and cultures and even more people who are effective at communicating the experience

I was, again, amazed at the levels of corruption and racism -- another opportunity to laugh whenever I hear fellow Canadians complaining aboot the racism & corruption here...

How very, um, generous of you

We are rich- filthy, stinking rich. I have spent enough time in this life to know we are.

We have a roof over our heads, and a roof of a shed and a roof over the screen room outside. We have hydro, satellite, internet, heat and cooling.

We have food, more than we can eat today or in a week or maybe even a month. We have cupboards full of food, a refrigerator filled with food, a freezer filled with food. We have funds to obtain more if that food runs out. We have enough to also feed three animals every day and invite others over to eat our food.

We have clean water, indoor plumbing- a flush toliet and the ability to bathe and shower.

We have clothing and the ability to wash it.

We have luxuries abounding. A car (soon to be two), bicycles, televisions, phones, jewelry... We can afford to ocassionally go where someone else will make us food.

We have health care. We have supplemental insurance.

We have reasonable health, mobility, a support network, social connections...

Most of all, we have each other, so I would feel rich without any of that.

SG

Right now I wish this was Facebook so I could "like" that post!

CrazyHeart likes it

Hmmmm...just thinking that this maybe ties in with another thread about 'living in the moment'.

I already posted that I feel rich.

Every day I have moments of being exquisitly aware of that.........watching clean fresh water pour abundantly from my kitchen tap.........spotting the mini rainbows in the dishpan bubbles........hearing 'my' robin singing away with abandon........enjoying nicely prepared food with one or more loved  ones.......the voices of the neighbor kids as they play.........seeing one old lady hug another outside the grocery store.........my list goes on and on..............because I am rich.

Because a man can never have enough music, and artists deserve fair compensation.

Putting everything into perspective:

Notes:

existential risk means risks that might wipe out humanity completely; humanity has only quite recently been seriously investigating them

Drake Equation: a curious human once thought out an equation to figure out the # of extraterrestrial civilizations in the Milky Way.  Go here to read a bit aboot it.

Dark Energy, Dark Matter: scientists have counted up the total amount of visible matter in universe and found out that the amount of visible matter is too small to account for certain behaviours in universe and objects in universe --  so most of universe they figure must be made up of some kind of matter and energy that somehow doesn't interact with normal matter except through gravity...so they named it 'dark'.

Hi Crasyheart--- So what does it profit a man. If he gains the whole world and loses His own soul. Mark 8: 36-37.   Mankind have not learned, to live by the will of GOD.