Maybe he should talk to Peter MacKay. There are Wiccan chaplains in the Canadian Forces, I believe.

I'm a bit puzzled by the notion that taxpayers should be paying for spiritual support for prisoners at all.  If it is important for the UCCan (or any other denomination or religion) to have their 'offenders' supported while in prison it seems to make sense to me that they pay for it. 

I think we should feed prisoners while they are serving their time, and provide health care, exercise and educational opportunites etc - but spiritual guidance is an option they don't all want or need.

All religions that have failed their followers should have access to them in prison (a sure sign they have failed them) and give them a chance to say it's not our fault but we are here to help you.

Was that sarcasm, or just unintentionally hilarious?

I was wondering the same thing chansen.

Guess.

From what I know of you, I'm leaning toward the latter.

Do not pass go, do not collect $200

Darn. I agree with you again.

Fair enough - the various religions should be allowed access to their followers who have broken laws and finished up in jail.  Access should not be paid for with taxpayers money though - any more than brainwashing school children should be done with taxpayers money. 

Taxpayers money should be used to further the common good - safe and nutritious food, health care, general education, support for those who need it. 

"Access should not be paid for with taxpayers money though"

True enough... and that goes for any religion. Visiting hours are supplied.

Care of the SPirit is an ESSENTIAL part of human living.  Failing to provide that opportunity to people in prison could be, imo, seen as a violation of their rights.  All prisons (and all care centres) should be required to have chaplains on staff.  However many chaplains can and do operate from an interfaith standoint at times.  Certainly not all centres can have a full range of faiths represented.

Matthew 25: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

Nothing there about chaplains.

Why wouldn't the followers of each individual faith visit those connected to that faith as a voluntary thing?  I'm struggling to understand the logic of expecting taxpayers to fund a service that is only wanted by people who follow a specific religious path.  

To me it is a bit like the visiting of people in hospital - followers of a particular faith ask for someone from their group to visit.  People like me hope no religious folks will appear at my bedside.

Who does the visiting? Either you are an extreme literalist or incredibly linguisitically challenged.

Matt 25:36 (NRSV)  "I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me."  

Because there are proved, definable benefits to offering spirtual care in institutions such as prisons and hospitals.

That only applies to local visiting clergy. The default position in many hospitals is that while the patient has the right to refuse a visit from anyone and is in full control of their care and decisions, that does not prevent a designated hospital chaplain from making a visit to them.

One of the more interesting bits of research (which we did reproduce in my last CPE unit) was that while a large number of people declined a visit from a chaplain or their own minister on admission, after 3 days the number of peoplee who were agreeable to such a visit (it was the same question asked by admitting staff and then by a ward clerk) was almost totally reversed. +95% were quite open to a chaplain's visit.

I have been in the position of acting as a hospital chaplain and being asked not to tell the person's own pastor that they were in hospital, though.

This sounds like a watertight case for John Baird and his department's new "Office of Religious Freedom"… boy, is  Vic Toews ever in trouble now!

I think it depends upon what the goal is of prisons.  If the goal is rehabilitation then I think it makes sense to provide services that are personally meaningful to each prisoner.  For some that might include education, while for others that might include spiritual support.  I would never suggest forcing spiritual support on anyone.  It would be enough, I think, to let prisoners know what is available and give them the chance to decide for themselves what will help the most.

Was there any research done as to why they changed their minds? Perhaps they were simply so bored that they would welcome a visit from anybody!

Or perhaps these men/women that seem so tough are very afraid?

Intersting DKS.  I've had my share of hopital experiences and have never received a visit from a chaplain.  Not when I was ill myself, not when one of my children was in ICU, not when my partner was at death's door.

Once I had a brief conversation with a Jewish chaplain in Toronto though - he realsed we were from outside the city and struck up a wee chat..  Maybe it depends what province you are in?

It is we the people who are to do the visiting, not sloughing off the responsibility on some paid substitute to represent the fruits we each are to produce.

If the prison system to the south is any indication there is a rapid rise in born again prisoners in relation to chance at parole.

I thought DKS was referring to the hospital system in Canada?

It depends on the hospital. I outlined what happens in my own regional hospital and in others I know of in Ontario. It's not universal.

In the original research, that was one factor. The major factor was that after 3 days, the seriousness of their being in hospital was far more apparent than they originally believed and at that point they wanted to talk with someone who didn't wear a white coat, didn't bring any pain and who could offer honest and open reflection as well as help them wrestle withh the "big questions" of life.

That's a hugely insulting comment. In our hospital the number of lay visitors is signifciant. Probably equal in number to the designated representatives of local churches. You apparently have a very negative view of those designated by their faith to give leadership.

Is that a problem?

Chaplains have training and are screened to ensure that, as much as possible, their visits can be helpful, not harmful.  Not all faith-based visitors understand how to be ready to respond to the needs of the person in an institution, and many cause more harm than good through that lack of understanding.

There are many lay visitors, and many clergy do make visits to members of their faith in institutions including prisons and hospitals.  They visit people who have indicated a desire to have someone representing their faith tradition.

Chaplains have the different responsibility of being available to anyone who wants to address their spiritual and emotional concerns.  In hospitals, at least in Alberta, they also have the opportunity to introduce themselves to patients and families without an invitation, and are able to make those introductions without being too intrusive.

Lots of people can clean floors, put on bandages, hand out medication, but I want trained people doing the cleaning in hospitals, patching wounds, and handing out medication.  In the same way, I want trained people being part of the spiritual care provided in institutions.

One of the qualifications to be a pastoral visitor in our hospital is that you have to take at least 16 hours (8 sessions x 2 hrs each) of training that extends to 48 hours, over time.

No, I have a problem with the people who delegate what should be their own responsibility to others in realtion to the verse "Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.".

Is that a problem?

[/quote]

Certainly. They are for the most part insincere and just looking for a work around. Kind of like political parties that pretend to honour God.

Certainly. They are for the most part insincere and just looking for a work around. Kind of like political parties that pretend to honour God.

[/quote]

you meant like the Bush's 

I mean like any of them who's only interest is the vote and the mindless mislead followers who are so overjoyed they think that their religion actually has some influence on a world in opposition to God.

ya I would say that they do believe so

Who is delegating? It is the work of all faithful people. But some have other pieces of work to do. Not everyone has the spiritual gifts to be a pastoral visitor. And that is scriptural.

And you know this how? Ever worked in a jail?

No.. but in a hospital where it was quite common for the sick to try and make a last resort deal with God for better health,

Mathew 25: 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

Your point? Aside from irrelevant proof texting.

I have worked in a forensic unit as a chaplain and no, you really don't know whereof you speak. Nor about hospitals...

No harm in being positive about their conversion. Have you followed up on them to see if it stuck?

Follow up with just the living ones, or the dead ones as well?

Does it matter?

Matthew 13: 22  He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

Again, you quote without context nor with any understanding. You fail to make your point. Literalism always does. And anyone can use a concordance...

Never used one. Not even sure what it's purpose is.

Just so you know, I had my tongue firmly planted in my cheek when I made the statement about the patients only wanting the visit from the chaplain because they were desparate for any visitors! I know that if I was seriously injured or ill, I would want a visit from a chaplain - and I don't think I would care much what faith tradition they were from. 

I was first introduced to hospital chaplaincy through a wonderful program organized by the Lutheran chaplain at the hospital my Mom worked at. Each Christmas Eve, around supper time, a group of us would gather  to go carolling  and he would lead us around the hospital. We would go to every ward and sometimes the patients and families would invite us into their rooms to sing a favourite carol with them. It seemed to put smiles on everyone's faces - even those who were obviously not Christian (folks who wore turbans or hijabs, for example).

Back to the subject at hand. I find it interesting that with all the whining and dripping and moaning that fundies do about how badly persecuted they are in Canada... was ther ever any question about whether the Christian Chaplain should be funded and hired?

I rather doubt it.

That's OK. We Wiccans are pretty used to actual persecution, as opposed to the persecution the fundies only wish they had.

A nother thing interesting about this story is how mainstream media is covering it. Only in Montreal, where the Gazette has an understanding of what religious discrimination (ie so called secular charter of PQ bans Jews. Muslims and Sikhsfrom working for governement, while allowing Catholics who wear crosses ) is it being covered for what it is .

 from the Gazette

Spiritual rights of inmates under attack as contracts halted, prison chaplains say.

Read more: http://www.canada.com/Spiritual+rights+inmates+under+attack+contracts+halted+prison+chaplains/7202301/story.html#ixzz25tEsQr6H

The article comes from  the agenda of the government to not not only ban Wicca but also other people of faith. And as in Quebec Christians will have an exception.

It makes one wonder why other church leaders have not spoken out.