If GOD calls a woman to be a pastor, Sunday school teacher or whatever who in the world had any business telling GOD HE's wrong. That's my two cents (1.7 cents Canadian, lol).

God looked at woman standing in the pulpit and said,"It  is good".

jon

You beat me to it.  An excellent topic and worthy of discussion.

I do agree with your above statement.

Shalom

Mate

If God should ever call a woman to be a pastor, she should strive to become and stay one no matter who said otherwise.

That's a pretty big "If."

The thing is, I don't believe God ever calls a woman to such a position of leadership. I base my opinion on the Bible.

Of special note in this discussion are scriptures such as these (emphasis mine)...

"But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being quite deceived, fell into transgression," - 1 Timothy 2:12-14 (NASB)

"For this reason I left you in Crete, that you might set in order what remains, and appoint elders in every city as I directed you, namely, if any man be above reproach, the husband of one wife, having children who believe, not accused of dissipation or rebellion. For the overseer must be above reproach as God's steward..." - Titus 1:5-7 (NASB)

Now, a woman as a Sunday School teacher? Indeed, why not. There is no biblical statement that would prohibit a woman from teaching children (or other women). At my own church, the Sunday School department, the Worship Team (singers and musicians), and the Bible Study Dinner Team are all led by women. 

jubilee

Terribly sorry but those letters are not from Paul.  They are from pseudo Paul.  The writer was trying to sanitize Paul to make him more acceptable to the patriarchal Rome.  They do not reflect the actions of the early church as LB has beautifully pointed out.  I don't think God gives one care as to whether or not a pastor does or does not have a penis.

Shalom

Mate

So now not only are women less valued than men, but children are less important than someone older than them?

Women are as valued as men, they simply have different roles to fill within the church. The bible standard is to have men as the primary church leaders, while women play support roles. In this way, men are taking on the bulk of the responsibility. Those who become overseers will have to be all the more accountable to God for their actions.  

Children are important as adults, of course, without question.

Freundly

Now you know as well as I do that children are to be seen and not heard.  LOL And women should stay at home pregnant and in the kitchen. LOL

That was too good to pass up.

Shalom

Mate

Hm... you have some pretty outdated ideas about women and children...

jubilee

When I read your idea of women in the church I can't believe what I see.  That position does not go back to the church of the apostles.  In fact it is contrary to the teachings and undrstandings of the early church.  It is a human invention and is not from God.

Shalom

Mate

so do i.

and i know many women who HAVE been called by god to be pastors and leaders of the church... my gosh, the UCC has many of them.

how do you explain these women and their calling?? 

Jubilee, you are a man. Could this have anything to do with why you feel this way? chauvinist, maybe? fundamentalist - maybe?Women have worked so hard to find their place in the church and with one broad statement and a few bible passages, you demean all women.

How do the women in your congregation feel about this or are they so browbeaten by men that they have lost their voice? I suppose men are the head of the household as well and women submit and obey

Do I sound angry? I am angry.

I am going to cool off now.See you later.

Perhaps jubilee's church should institute "Shariah law".  That would put women in their place.  I would even permit rape.  Look at the power the men woujld have!  Wow!.

Yes crazyheart, I too get a little angry at this nonsense.  Consider that Galations says that in Christ there is no male nor female but in Christ all are one.  Perhaps in this church they run around checking to see if their pastor has  a penis.

Shalom

Mate

the problem for me isn't that jubilee believes such nonsense, its that jubilee keeps stating that this belief is the way that any bible believing church should behave.

i find that offensive... if you want to believe that woman are incapable of handling any kind of authority within a religion, that is great.  but quit insisting that that is what god wants... it is what you believe god wants. 

the UCC does not believe that women are inferior to men, or incapable of holding authority within the church, and this belief is based on our interpretation of the bible.

to suggest that the only way to be a bible believing christian is to not allow women to hold positions of authority within the church is arrogant.  there are many bible believing christans out there who don't feel that way at all.

sigh

Perhaps jubilee has found that one church out of some 22 000 denominations that is the only one with the right way as opposed to all the others..  LOL

Shalom

Mate

3 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.  Phillppians 4:2 KJV

1 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea: 2 That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.

3 Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus: 4 Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles. 5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house.

6 Greet Mary, who bestowed much labour on us.

12 Salute Tryphena and Tryphosa, who labour in the Lord.

16 Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you.

Romans 16 KJV

Early Church history is full of women who not only supported houses of worship but built them.  Women who were instrumental in the conversion of others by preaching the gospel.  These women were valued in their time and frankly should be honoured in this day and age.

LB

Then Thecla arose and said to Paul, I am going to Iconium. Paul replied to her, Go and teach the word of the Lord.    

Acts of Paul and Thecla, NT Apocrypha

We should not be surprised by Jubilee, he has shown on numerous threads that this is his position.

It is ridiculous, as LB pointed out up thread, Jesus had many women in positions of leadership at a time when women did not have leadership roles.

But he is not alone sadly in these beliefs.  We cna all just be glad that the UCC has recognised the role women have both as members and leaders in our congregations.

Almost from the beginning the UCC has ordained women.  Women have served as ministers, pastors, lay leaders, etc.  I myself have been called by God to become a lay leader and yes, I preach from the pulpit whenever I am needed.  I have also taught adult courses on the Scriptures to both men and women.

And I have worshipped with women leading, and taken courses from women.  They have preached and taught - and done an excellent job.  Whomever God calls is qualified (or with the right education can become qualified) to leadership roles. 

I feel sorry for churches where only half of the members are given these privileges and responsibilities.  Just think how many talented people they are overlooking - people who could be using those talents to serve God.

And I would like to make it clear that if this was reversed and only women could preach in the church, I would be an advocate for the other position. It is a matter of justice.

This is one where I disagree.  It is a problem for me that anyone pretending the the name Christian believes in that kind of sex discrimination.

I understand that this is probably a failing on my part, but there are limits to what I am able to gracefully accept under the heading of respecting other beliefs.

There is simply no way to defend such beliefs held in the name of Christianity.

Women were allowed to be ordained from the very beginning.  It took 11 years for the first one to be ordained, however, so in practice we have been ordaining women since 1936.

That said, we should always acknowledge that while the early church ordained women, it wasn't until 70 something that married women were allowed to continue to work.  Prior to that, they always had to stop working once they were married.

Sexism is a persistent, abhorrent blight, and we shouldn't risk letting it back in by forgetting our history.  (Not that you were, seeler, I'm just leaping off from your post, not responding to it :))

I have nothing against women in the pulpit as long as they still show up on time to serve the coffee and cookies, and clean the sanctuary.  Actually, I've heard some women preachers who are better than some of the men I've heard, and vice versa.  It used to be, in the days of the deaconess order, that a woman had to give up their commissioning when they got married.  Anyone who's crazy enough to go into the ministry today, men or women, should do so!

Being as it's close to Easter, I was just thinking about how Jesus gave the message of resurrection to the women first to proclaim. Of course, Jesus hadn't read Timothy yet so how would he know?

It was also a woman named Anna, a prophet, who first proclaimed Jesus as Messiah in the Gospel of Luke. She also hadn't read Timothy, though. Neither did Deborah, the Judge over all Israel or...well...you get the idea.

Jubilee - you said -

"Now, a woman as a Sunday School teacher? Indeed, why not. There is no biblical statement that would prohibit a woman from teaching children (or other women). At my own church, the Sunday School department, the Worship Team (singers and musicians), and the Bible Study Dinner Team are all led by women."

I'm puzzled, and reminded of a friend's story.  Ann works from her home, Jon is a High School teacher.  One day when they were out for a walk and talking about their individual lives and life as a couple, Jon observed "You know, now the kids are at the High School I find myself really missing youngsters.  Our friends kids are High School age too".   Ann pondered for a while, wondering  how he could get contact with the younger crowd into his life.

The next day at church the congregation were asked to look at the sign up sheets in the hallway - and to please sign up for activities they were interested in doing.  Jon signed up for teacheing Sunday School.  The pastor came round to their house a few days later to tell him that he was 'out of line',  teaching Sunday School was a Women's Ministry!

Me - I figure that we all human - certain jobs, activities, interests, aren't given by God to one gender and not the other.

When I was in sunday school it was run by a couple with kids and a few teenagers helping them out. I lead the worship team in our churchs sunday school program and the whole show is run by my friend's father. I see nothing wrong with men running a children's ministry. In fact, I believe every level of ministry would be better with the guidance of both genders.

I have had the joy to have worked with three female ministers in my UU church (including our current interim minister) and known one other in another UU church. Furthermore, one was a lesbian and another had a disability. Diversity is an asset to the ministry of any church, and using scriptural references that belong to another era to keep people of any sort out of the ministry is not justifiable. Fortunately, in my life, I've been part of two churches (UCC and UU) that do believe in the value of women and various minorities as ministers and will, I pray, continue to do so.

I am still mad at Jubilee

I totally understand how you're feeling, crazyheart. I find that whenever Someone discriminates against me because of something about me I can't control, (gender, sexuality, the works) I pray for them because it's not my fault they can't accept me, it's their fault. It's not your fault your a woman, crazyheart, it's jubilee's fault for believing that leaves you with fewer rights. Forgiveness and prayer; it's the way to go!

Thank you for reminding me of that freundly - It just proves "Out of the mouth of babes". ( Not that I am calling you a baby - but you are certainly much younger than me.

If Jubilee a member of the UC??  Highly unlikely, eh??  I bet UCC is not a *biblical* tradition by his books...  and neither is Roman Catholicism, Anglicanism... probably, there are very very few denominations and churches that would qualify... 

And, by sheer coincidence all of the aforementioned *unbiblical* denominations have a strong feminine presence, either in leadership roles (UC and Anglican) or as part of the belief system and doctrine (Mary is Mother of God, after all, and is *worshipped(!!!), prayed to, etc. in the RC)...

Bottom line is that the more extreme, evangelical and literalist a tradition is, the more it seems to hate women, disempower women, and relegate us to "cookies, coffee, cleaning and changing diapers". (The irony, of course, being that it is women who raise all the men who then proclaim themselves as superior to all women, including their mothers...Speaking of which, Jubilee: are you superior to your mother?)

Above all else, evangelical and literalist traditions FEAR women's wisdom.

And even more so, they FEAR women's innate capacity for closeness with the Holy *through* their ability to carry and bring forth New Life within their bodies.   No man, not even Jesus, can do that.  I am sure this sounds like blasphemy to your ears, Jubilee, but please give it some thought: without the life given by God through women's bodies, there is not Jesus, no you, no me, no bible, no church, no religion.

(that guy from Oprah doesn't count - *he* was physically a female and had female reproductive organs)

That, and the occasional uprising.

I would also like to point out that in the "Bible", Wisdom is written in the feminine.  I interpret that as a very clear signal how the earliest writers felt about women and their position in society and faith.

4 He taught me also, and said unto me, Let thine heart retain my words: keep my commandments, and live.

5 Get wisdom, get understanding: forget it not; neither decline from the words of my mouth.

6 Forsake her not, and she shall preserve thee: love her, and she shall keep thee.

7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

8 Exalt her, and she shall promote thee: she shall bring thee to honour, when thou dost embrace her.

9 She shall give to thine head an ornament of grace: a crown of glory shall she deliver to thee.     KJV Proverbs 4

17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.     KJV James 3

20 Wisdom cries without; she utters her voice in the streets:

21 She cries in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she utters her words, saying,

22 How long, you simple ones, will you love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?     

KJV Proverbs 1

Freundly - I don't have any problems with men (or women) running Sunday School, worship services, mixed gender Bible study or anything else.  My story about the man who wanted to teach Sunday School and was told he couldn't because it was a Women's Ministry had a different 'point'.  This sort of stereotyping is UNJUST.  It gave Jon a whole new understanding of Ann's anger when SHE was discriminated against.  In their case it caused a change of denomination, and a much more deliberate breaking of gender roles within their family.  Suddenly it became very important for girls to be encouraged to do 'traditional male activities' and for boys to take their turn at housework. 

kay, I think it's very cool that they're doing that with their kids. I do agree that telling anyone they can't do something because of their gender is quite ridiculous. Well, now that I think about it, we have to draw the line somewhere, but I'm sure the line of what is a ppropriate to talk about on this site has been drawn WAY before what I'm thinking about...

Jesus said that the in the Kingdom, there will be no need for marriage between a man & a woman as there will not be a difference in the spirit.

So now if we are to be examples of the Kingdom here on earth, why would the sexes be different now, in regards to spiritual things?

It only makes a difference in the things of the flesh. & as long as leadership is led more by the spirit, then we shouldn't worry about such fleshly things, should we?

Bolt

The women have no such calling. The UCC is in error to allow them to be pastors.

Jubilee, don't make me mad again!!

You can't explain away the position just because I'm a man. There are too many women who stand in agreement with me on this, including the wives of many pastors, elders, and deacons.

They are not browbeaten. They have not lost their voice. Submitting is not easy. It requires a lot of respect and humility.

[quote]Do I sound angry? I am angry.[/quote

Perhaps... irrational?

Women being labourers in the gospel, servants, and helpers does not make them pastors, elders, and deacons. Women in my denomination are quite welcome to labour, serve, and help.

UCC? Not at this time, although I once was. I was a member of the UCC as a youth, before I began my personal relationship with Christ. I'm a member of a Baptist denomination. I have attended, at one time or another, churches of the UCC, Baptist, Nazarene, Christian Reformed, Presbyterian, Roman Catholic, and Lutheran denominations. I consider them all to be biblical, to varying degrees. I do not accept that the Roman Catholic church is a Christian church. 

We do not hate women. We respect, cherish, and honor them. We also protect them. (In answer to your question, I am not superior to my mother. However, I am different than she is.)

I don't think there is any question that women played key roles in the early church and I don't think there is any justification for denying them full particpation in our time, as pastors, elders, deacons, etc.

Jubilee, you are of course entitled to your opinion and I agree that there are many women in contemporary churches who agree with your position.  I am not sure I could be part of a such a church, but then you are not trying to convince me to join.

Churches where women are subservient to men are churches where the men call the shots and fear loss of their power, regardless of what jubilee or anyone else has to say on this matter. I was involved in churches that held this view for a number of years and it is the cultural mind-set strongly held in that environment -- those who struggle with it are shamed, blamed and otherwise manipulated into submission. The bible is used to enforce the cultural standard, which is all it is, not a command or instruction from God or Jesus in any way.

In my view, it is such a waste of a woman's natural talents to be restricted and silenced like this. I left Christianity because of these messages and it was only grace that brought me to those who were loving and open enough to show me a different way. This cultural mindset is harmful to individual women, it's harmful to women as a group and it demeans the essential message of Christianity -- that of love and equality for all. 

Is that the essential message of Christianity?

I always thought it had more to do with Jesus being able to save one and all from Hell.

What and where is hell, Jubilee? I think I also disagree with you about Jesus. Jesus lived and died and he is someone I emulate and try to fashion my life after  but I don't think in 2009 Jesus is saving me from Hell. God is in me and around me - not Jesus.

If God is in you and around you, then so is Jesus.

Absolutely!

Freundly:

I think that you should present your question to Lydia Grucchi, the first woman minister in Canada, ordained by the United Church in '37 or thereabouts.  If you could feel up to attending her scholarship, charisma, work ethic, stamina and et al. with poise and without a nervous belly merely to pose the question, I am sure that you would get an interesting answer.

Now, go out and study her, so that you can answer the question from her point of view.

jubilee

Just because Harper's Conservatives formed the Government, doesn't mean that the majority of Canadians believe in capitol punishment or President Bush.  In other words the stories that made it into the Bible don't even necessarily reflect the common sense or the common declaration of the people or the spiritual quest of the people.  It reflects a totalitarian editorial board dominated by the means of a people governed by a more powerful people.  Citing text, without the entire history and means of the entire literture of the time, takes the biblical text out of context. 

No, we can't rely on the Bible alone to tell us what is going on in the Bible.

interesting... so, you claim to know the very mind of god??  you claim to speak for god herself in this situation, over other bible believing christians??  i would suggest, jubilee, that what you are saying is heresy.

besides, if the UCC is, as you stated, a christian church, then how can you insist that not ordaining women is necessary for a church to be 'biblically' correct???