Greetings!

Well, I know for myself, other than directing the poster in a post to seek professional help I would not say anything that would be considered anything more than support or encouragement.  In other words I would recognize the issue and offer some kind, supportive words, but that would be it.  I would not offer them direction or probably even question them on anything because I would be concerned that I do not know them or their situation well enough and could possibly do more harm than good.  I also wouldn't want the responsibility if I gave advice and then something terrible happened.

Hope, peace, joy, love ...

Enabling is just another term for meddling in a person's life to make you feel better about yourself or to make you feel useful ...

If you really cared you would let them find their own way  .....

When you get down to it most people really don't want help

They  just just want someone to bitch too , and have an audience to perform to ....

Sometimes having a loser in one's life makes you appreciate what you have going for you too ....

It's like when two buddies go on a diet and only one of them loses weight and it happens to be you ..... you're thinking "damn I look so much better than that porker !!"

Make sense ?

I don't think we can be enablers on the Internet.  I think we can be listeners.  I think we can jump to wrong conclusions without all the facts and be presumtious.   I also think that we can be supporters and we can be negative just like in real life.   We can hide behind a shroud of secrecy and comment on conversations that are really none of our business that we would not dare to if we overheard them at Tim Horton's.

I think we can be misinterpretted as being harsh because when we say negative things the victim cannot see our face.   I also think that we overstep quite often.

CH -- We never know for sure who we're talking to here, which is both a blessing and a curse.  In real life, it might be clearer to me what a person's issues were.  Someone who seems to always have a drama going on or needs so much attention they create one would suggest a Personality Disorder to me and I would respond accordingly.   In that case, it means not feeding into it.

We just don't know what's genuine and what isn't.  Here on the 'cafe, a person can also take on various id's too, so they could be double dipping in the attention department.  I still feel our response needs to be compassionate without "taking it on", like Beloved said.  

It must be hard to deal with such emptiness. 

Funny Jes but I have seen you offering advice on many threads here.

I watch a person close to me, and her spouse and I see a disturbed person and her enabler.  He supports her to the point that she neither deals with her problems or gets the help she needs.  No her problem is not alcohol - but in watching the two of them interact I feel certain that I know what AA means by an enabler.

There is a difference between listening to a person and offering support or advice (including advice to get help), and in always being there to pick up the pieces when they continue on their distructive behaviour, asking for help and advice but then not following it.  At some point a person needs to be able to say - either follow the advice that you are getting, or decide to go your own way, or get professional help.  But don't keep coming back with the same problem - or inventing a new one every week - just to get attention.  If we continue to encourage this I think we become enablers.

Rightly or wrongly, I've made a decision to view poster's problems in the same way I do in "real" life.

I acknowledge that I'm not in a position to make an informed  decision, as I don't know all the relevant facts. But do we in "real" life?

I'm also aware that some of the problems presented mightn't be genuine, and as Ninja suggests, are based on a need for attention.

Thus I, as much as possible, give an authentic response to posters. That is how I act in "real" life, and that is how I act online.  I would honestly speak my truth, even if others might cringe with embarrassment, or think I should have been more "careful" in my responses. I'm not malicious by nature, so I don't think others have too much to fear from me, anyway.

When it comes to the question of enabling, I wish I had the courage to be more honest. There have been times when I've read a post and thought, "Stop acting like a victim, do something about your situation." Conversely, there have been times when I've applauded a poster - like the young woman who left her marriage due to her child being molested - for having the courage NOT to act like a victim.

I must confess I have strong views on enabling, growing up in a family where one parent acted as an enabler to the other. Most enablers act out of low self-esteem, whatever reasons they give themselves. It's a passive way of causing a great deal of harm to themselves and those around them.

Good question crazyheart - and some great responses so far.

From my perspective, people have many, many different ways and different speeds of "solving" problems or answering questions for themselves.   And only they can solve them, I cannot do it for them.  

When I offer any support,  information, questions or suggestions, others may receive or disregard it - that's outside of my control.  What i offer might make sense and they'll have an "AHA!" moment of epiphany (ha ha ha! wouldn't that be nice!), it might be stuff they've heard before a thousand times, it might be something they're going to chew on for a while, it might be totally irrelevant.   I try not to take it personally, either way.   I offer, they do with it what they will.   

I don't really think we can 'enable' here.  For me, I see the cafe as more of a listening post, a mirror, a place to bounce around ideas or plans,  a place to think out loud & see how others respond,  a place to gather input from others who've travelled the road before us,  a place to be respected & honoured in good times and in struggle.

If I see a thread going around in circles, sometimes I'll stick with it & see if I can help re-direct; sometimes I just say my bit & leave; sometimes I just hang in there & offer periodic support; sometimes I remain silent.  Those are my choices. 

Ummm ... attention ... we all need it.  We just have a variety of different ways of getting that need met. 

I believe we can support someone on the cafe (and many people have been greatly supported and encouraged) but I think it would be difficult to 'enable' . In real life I see someone as an enabler who assists or  gives too much help to someone. A person with limitations can start to rely on others to do things for them that they can still do for themselves if there is someone available to enable this behaviour. This person may then take on a 'disabled personality' when it isn't necessary resulting in a loss of their independence. This is when support could become enabling in a negative sense, when it has an negative affect on someones life.

Just out of curiosity, pommum, don't you think that can happen on a thread?Enabling a person to keep doing what they are doing so that they can come back and post.

By the way, there are some great comments here.

Crazyheart - I think it could happen on a thread, and on the cafe some very close relationships have developed, but I think it would be more difficult to actually 'enable' someone than in real life, but you could greatly influence someone by your advice or encouragement on a thread.

This is a very interesting thread and something I had  not thought much about before.

Crazyheart -  So would this mean that for us to welcome others to keep coming back here & posting, people must initiate changes that we see as useful or helpful?   I'm not trying to be argumentative, just looking at it from another perspective.   Are there conditions on people continuing to post? 

Or can we respect others inherent dignity, and right to choose?   It's a ethical question that often comes up actually in providing healthcare - do we keep treating people well who, in our opinion, make poor decisions for themselves (providing they're legally capable to do so).  Sorry, maybe I'm making things a bit muddier!    (Off to a meeting now, so will check back when I return!)

carolla, that is interesting and gives me something else to think about.

Carolla, considering the health care situation.....isn't treatment always given in spite of what decisions the client has made? 

Is there ever a time when treatment is withheld due to the behaviour of the client?

I am trying to think of a situation when this might apply.

Does anyone have any ideas???

When you "enable" a negative, harmful behaviour (like drinking too much alcohol) enabling is no longer positive.  It is also my opinion that a negative form of enabling takes place here sometimges.

Your question arises from a thread started by someone claiming to be a teenager and the information given to us over the last few months is that this person has some serious emotional problems. That there have been long threads in which people have listened, advised and counselled this person has caused me a great deal of discomfort.  I believe that you are absolutely right when you say that you can't "fix" other people and their problems - especially on a forum that really isn't intended to be a support group.  The purpose of Wondercafe is open-minded discussion but it's not been easy sticking to that purpose with no moderation.

Frankly engaging in conversations with minors that venture into counselling on the internet gives me the willies and I wish people would refrain from doing it.  I know folks mean well but I do think it can take on a negative form of enabling, feeding a need for attention and love that should be sought out from people who can offer something a lot more tangible than we can offer here.  I heard what you said on the thread and empathize with your frustration with the person in question however I think we should all be using extreme caution when dealing with emotionally fragile people, particularly when they are children.  We shouldn't be, imo, dispensing advice, tlc or tough love to them other than to encourage them to seek out people in their community for the help they need.  It is enabling in an ultimatley unhelpful way otherwise.

If that is the case, and I am not disputing it, then, I would never post on a relationship thread. Advice to seek councelling etc from most of the posters fell on deaf ears. It is better for the poster and the postee not to comment.

The relationship thread , in these cases, would never be visited.

Just saying........

Some good points to ponder meredith - thanks.

Pommum - don't want to derail the discussion - but yes, sometimes I have seen it become an issue.  I think there was another thread here re transplant refusal.  I've seen some docs refuse to continue to treat patients who make decisions they don't like or agree with - it can get really complex.  Often, it's more attitudinal on the part of staff ... treatment  may be rendered, but with varying degrees of respect or care for the person.

We shouldn't be, imo, dispensing advice, tlc or tough love to them other than to encourage them to seek out people in their community for the help they need.  It is enabling in an ultimatley unhelpful way. - Meredith.

This what I have been struggling with and I think you have hit the nail on the proverbial head.

So  how would you recommend other posters getting this message?

Well, my authentic self thinks that when it comes to the internet, personal abuse is more likely to cause offence than giving advice.

As an oldest child, I'm prone to giving advice - and I've found that if I don't resort to personal abuse, most people happily ignore it (fair enough) if they don't agree with it. ( I don't think that a complete stranger on the internet would think, "I'll do whatever this Pilgrim's Progress tells me to do.") The truth is we're not that important, folks!  Besides, within reason, people are responsible for their own behaviour.

Also, I don't consider giving advice enabling behaviour. If that's all I "do", I think that shows a level of interest/concern. It's what one does, when one is part of a community. 

Well crazyheart, m'dear, that's why I've refrained from taking part in your Boobs,whatsits, thread.

I simply have no inclination to enable you in this obsession you've developed with rude bits of the body.

I've refrained from giving my opinion before, Possum,  because you've been recovering from a nasty virus. However, I  feel some advice coming on.

I believe Saskatoon has opened up a chapter of Tits Anonymous, why don't you join?? (I'd pay your fee myself, but that would be enabling behaviour.)  

LOL, Pilgrims Progress!

Carolla ...sorry if it appeared I might be derailing the thread but you just got me thinking about ways we could possibly be enabling on the internet. I remember the transplant thread. We must always remember that we don't have all the facts and possibly the poster does not totally understand a complex situation. In situations such as this they should be discussing the situation with professionals in their community who do have all the facts.

Agree pommum - we don't always have all the facts, even when the person is right in front of us in real life!   We humans are such complicated creatures!

 My name is CrazyHeart and...........

Funny Jes but I have seen you offering advice on many threads here.

Not advice .... an opinion

I don't think we can be enablers on the Internet.

Absolutely people might discount the power of the internet but it's hard not to see how it affects the way we communicate there are real people posting, chatting seeing each other, viewing personal pages .... the internet has done a very powerful thing by providing a "voice" to just about anyone who wants to voice themselves....