The old patrons may appear to act as a clique in the new cafe. But, hopefully, they'll soon be outnumbered and outwritten by newbies.

I like your optimism Arminius!!!

I don't like the word clique, hopefully we can go into the new site as old friends and new ones, which carries all the baggage and rewards of any friendships. Lord keep us mindful of others.

Well, we, Homo sapiens sapiens, are not only a doubly sapient but also a very optimistic species. Hope is in our genes. Being optimistic is being wise, eh?

Mindful of others is always a good thing.

Sometimes the phrase "we've always done it this way" can be damaging, a new person can feel that they are not part of the "we".

Hello...

We will have opportunity for the manifestation of a dialogic circle centred in respect and opening to the broad circumference of perspective. We, who comprise the core community, have opportunity to welcome and affirm the curious and the interested; thereby enlarging the core and expanding the circumference.

George

We have the opportunity, George - do you think we have an obligation?

We do, both to ourselves and to the "noobs". Our commitment to dialogue and hospitality obligates the latter. For the former, if we don't open up our circle to newcomers, they won't stay and WC2 might end up as dead as WC1 so there is an obligation to ourselves and to the principles of the 'Cafe.

Mendalla

Hi Beloved,

In response to the OP title,  I was thinking that it hasn't been settled that in-groups/cliques are a reality of the current WonderCafe.ca.  

All that is certain with respect to cliques at wondercafe.ca is:

1) that we have two basic camps, one says no and the other says yes.

2) that those who insist on the existence of cliques tend to condemn/blame those who reject the notion of cliques of being the clique.

Dictionary.com defines a clique as:

Oddly enough when the allegations of cliques or in-groups are raised there is a tremendous reluctance within the accuser to define the set.  In fact, I can only recall one attempt to define a clique composed of members A, B and C.

Certainly there have been many instances of suggest member D, E or F is part of the clique or in-group.

Also the predominant "proof" supplied for the existence of a clique or an in-group is the "feelings" of the accuser.

Given those observations I predict the following:  more of the same at the new site.

More folk using their "feelings" as "proof" and more folk insisting that "feelings" aren't "proof."

So with that in mind I turn to Beloved's questions.

No.  I don't think it would be important to the good of the newly formed community to not let that dominate?

Why not?  Well because it is the relationships here that are the only reason for the creation of the successor site. 

It would also be fundamentally dishonest to neglect these relationships.

Without some form of advertizing scheme the only way the successor site will grow is through the word of mouth of participants, that is deliberately inclusive and if we are going to ignore relationships we already have to trick new members into joining we are only going to build a dysfunctional community.

The reason why we are building a successor site is because we think that WonderCafe.ca has two much too offer to let it disappear.  What is it that WonderCafe.ca offers that is so valuable?

Its the relationships.

That would wear thin.  I don't think it is going to be a pitfall though.  Even when one considers all of the incendiary moments of the past seven years of WonderCafe.ca the patterns of discussion shows that we do not (in general) fixate on those conflagrations.

As we reminisce and start talking about favourite threads as we are in seeler's thread

http://www.wondercafe.ca/discussion/social/all-time-favourite-topics-and...

We find our collective memories being jogged and we get to consider that once very present bonfires in the then are now, more often than not piles of ashes.  We learn from those heated moments (hopefully) and move on (eventually).

Some of us in WonderCafe.ca now participated on another board.  How many times did you hear, "Remember way back on such and such when so and so did that thing?"

Conversation here in WonderCafe.ca takes place in the context of WonderCafe.ca.  The same will happen with the successor site.

I have conversations here with folk I knew from then without it being a nostalgic exercise for a now defunct website.

I'm confident that we would manage to do more than sit around and moan how it was better at the first WonderCafe.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Hi Beloved,

A good question. I will add a simple "well said" to Mandalla's response. If we are to make the most of the opportunity we will want to embrace the discipline.

George

Beloved, unless you wipe my consciousness, I will have a reaction to Beloved as being a good soul, even if you are grumpy one day.  I cannot help that.  Someone will look on it and say, wow, you let Beloved get away with that?  

I don't see the collective memories of the community as a bad thing or even something that you could ever clear.

I do see that we have a duty to welcome new folks.  For a while, I know that I used to send a wondermail to new folks, saying "hey, welcome, if you ahve questions, let meknow, happy to help", etc.   I then heard some felt that was creepy.  I listened, and saw their viewpoint and quit doing it.  I do try to welcome people back that I see come on and welcome new folks sometimes..probably should be more intentional about that...

I think it is about intentions.

There will always be those who say "i am out of the circle". 

There are ways to ensure you work towards giving people a hand up into being in any circle, ie, to looking outwards rather than always inwards...to seeing who is new in the post, to giving solid response to a new poster's contributions.

I think that today's act --  Act 20 of the Lenten campaign is appropriate for this thread.

http://stewardship-news.org/P3Z-2AA6O-DB5PMO2F2B/cr.aspx

and....the quote: "Let brotherly love continue. Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for thereby some have entertained angels unawares."

Hebrews 13: 1-2

Beloved, here is another one.  I wasn't sure i I wanted to put it on my list of favourite threads, but, I felt here was more important as it speaks to how do we help people get to know each other.

http://www.wondercafe.ca/discussion/social/how-well-do-you-know-members-...

Pinga, 

Have been thinking about this since you posted the link. That thread appeared when I had been on the site a few months. I remember it well because I perceived it as quite exclusive at the time. I had no idea what any of the answers were. 

I offer this not to be snarky but to give another perspective. At any rate, it didn't put me off hanging around. As you can see I am still here 6 years later!

Okay Beloved ... I won't say I know you if you won't tell anyone you know me.

But if there is a clique can I be a member?  Please, please, please!

It's easily done Qwerty. Hop on the LAST post thread and you are in. Easy as pie. 

Hi qwerty:

wondercafe2.ca will be a place of miracles: things will go in reverse. The clique does not choose to, you choose it! So, if you want to be part of this new wonderclique, you already are!

Easy as pie, eh?

Interesting paradox, i took that thread as a game to go and seek like a scavenger hunt

I used search for it.

So my dislike of last post threads (there is one every board I'm on) is keeping me out of the clique? Or does it mean I'm being snobbish and clique-y in my own way? 

Mendalla

Hmm, maybe paradox3 a scavenger hunt game would be better? ie encourage exploration

I wonder paradox3 and beloved what elements of welcome have we seen here in wondercafe and how could they be championed in the new site

Means you are missing out on a lot of fun and even some interesting sharing!
 

I think to be more intentional about being inclusive - I'm not saying some aren't now - just saying even  more of an effort.

To acknowledge by avatar name and post the posts that are made from new people.  To ask questions and show an interest in them.

That's true Rev John - and I'm not looking at that in the present wondercafe.  But I am thinking there is a greater possibility of it actually happening in a new wondercafe when current members of this one carry into the next who have already formed bonds and relationship if we aren't intentional about it not happening.

Good thinking Pinga - - a more welcoming twist!

Great idea Pinga!

(But there is still going to be a LPT by gum!)

Beloved

I have  attempted to welcome and dialogue with some new comers on R and F.  On most occasions they didn't seem to stay around very long or show further  interest. 

 I have found that talking to total strangers for the first time on the WC  requires some intuition,wisdom,  gentleness,  and tact.

I've been sorry sometimes to see newcomers pounced on and dragged around by the hair, especially if they were fundies or had come to show us the way even if we didn't appreciate it.  I've felt our hospitality has been  lacking.

Will we continue to punch the fundies ( I hate this term) or evangelicals  in the nose before they have hardly one foot in the door? Is there a way to exercise more patience and tolerance on our behalf?

I think the technical term for the punches you mention is ... "counter-punch". Not all opinions and beliefs merit tolerance or patience. Some are just not  worthy and ought not to be borne, notwithstanding the fervancy with which they are held or espoused. Sometimes an answer must be made. 

Further, I have always thought the idea of "cliques" at Wondercafe is a crock.  There is only the "engaged" and the "unengaged" ... the unengaged denigrate the engaged as a "clique" as a means of consoling themselves over their feelings of alienation. 

I think it's the halo/ reverse halo effect p3 was mentioning on another thread.

but what about wondercafe2, qwerty? If a core group move from wondercafe to wondercafe2, do you think there is a possibility that that core group could be seen as cliquey, or even be cliquey because of the pre-existing relationships?

It depends on the "fundies" involved. Some of them come in the door swinging and I don't think patience or tolerance are merited in those cases. Some of them come in to teach and preach, not to dialogue, and while I think patience and tolerance are merited, they will wear their welcome thin after a while. The "fundies" who are here regularly, SaulnowPaul, airclean, unsafe, blackbelt (though he comes and goes), are ones who have shown a willingness to stay and function in an environment where dialogue is the name of the game, even if they tend to be better at talking than listening. They will, I hope, be welcome on Wondercafe2 as well.

Mendalla

relationships take time

someone new to wc wont, by definition, be a part of the wc culture -- that will take time, just like it did for all of us wc codgers, so set in our ways *waggles eyebrows*

we can't force someone to adopt a culture or even think our way -- we can continue being ourselves & try to be open to new experiences

either that, or neo, pinga & i will play deathmatch wow my little pony mod until there is one victor...

Well Beloved a newcomer has no awareness of the history of other members and therefore no reason to perceive the existence of "cliques".  I am still trying to decide whether your perception of the reality of cliques is based on your belief that you yourself are part of a clique (or not) at the original Wondercafe. As for myself, I have never perceived myself as part of a clique but was once accused of being part of a Wondercafe clique (by Serena as I recall).  She was quite convinced while I never felt that I was more than a regular participant.  

Of course, when Wondercafe2 gets under way, I will, having been around Wondercafe since pretty well the beginning, consider myself, not a mere "clique member", but, rather, a "Wondercafe Charter Member" with full entitlement to all the rights and privileges that such status entails and will expect that due deference be shown at all times.

Omni once started a group called "The Clique". Only a few of us joined it and there was not much action there. But there was some pretty hilarious conversation that led to a clique with an open invitation to join.

Good times. 

Qwerty, I never said, nor ever thought, there was/is a clique at wondercafe. That was raised by someone else in another thread. I just started this thread asking the question as to whether it could be a possibility in a new forum when some with an already formed community mixed with others that were not part of that community. I was just merely asking a question.

Will try and remember to defer in the new forum :) :) :).

Well Beloved, I definitely intend to make a point of making each and every newcomer aware of my seniority here at Wondercafe in order to to ensure that I continue to receive the wholehearted (and wholly justified, in my opinion) approval of my views that has become such a tradition here at Wondercafe.

Being named after the keyboard should help establish you as an elder on WC2, Qwerty :)

Qwerty and Mendalla

 I'm not accusing either one of you.  I understand your opinions but  I'm just trying to say in general to all the good people on the WC as follows:

 
"Can we   give peace a chance"  before we unload our  dissenting dynamite on to new people's shoulders?

We need not kill all that we see. I mean if someone begins  a thread with a bible verse  as an example I could respond :

 "I've read this before,please explain your interpretation" rather than saying....." F...off.." and patting myself  on the back thinking I'm so clever because surely I alone hold all the world's wisdom.

I'm just asking for a little reprieve and patience on behalf of the newbies. I do sometimes hear talk about the golden rule, loving our neighbor as ourselves,  longings for world peace etc. on the WC.

Your Majesty Qwerty

I worship you in all your glory. You shall indeed sit upon the highest throne in the new WC. We shall obey you. I bow down already just at the mention of your name.

Some ideas don't deserve respect. Fundamentalist Christians harbour some of the least ethical and least credible beliefs, often delivered in the least humble ways.
.
Do you have an example of a newbie who we've come down hard on, who didn't deserve it and showed signs of conversation instead of preaching?

chansen

Its O.K. if you don't agree with what I'm writing. I don't have the patience to dig around and  offer proof. I did notice that you wrote on another thread that you " hope we can all get along.....better....did you say "better"?.  I've no proof you said that either.

I did say that. Getting along better is also a two-way street.
.
But mostly, you seemed to have someone in mind with your post. If you had an example, that would be great. Any usernames of mistreated newbies pop out to you?

I will say, that is to difficult to not bow down in front of qwerty in real life.  His righteousness and glory shine for all to see. 

chansen

Nope.

@Pinga

Do you have a picture of Qwerty? I can almost see his halo. I love his writing style seriously. If he put his mind to it and chose to be serious and sensible I believe he could write a remarkable book about people's  trials and  tribulations, as well as  gaiety on the WC.

Speaking of being serous and sensible, qwerty is a solid person, with a heart of gold, who uses his skills to help others.  Someone that I care about went to see Qwerty for professional assistance and Qwerty went above and beyhond duty to help him, and was respectful in trying circumstances to a vulnerable person. (along with being extremely generous of his time).

So, yeah...he may try to be a gruff bear, but...some of us know better..

Pinga

Re Qwerty...I'm a believer.

There is a world of difference between challenging an idea and belittling the person who holds it.

George

Speaking of WC charter members...there I have a story to tell.
In my former congregation founded some 27 years ago, they had this "tradition" that the "charter members"insisted on doing every anniversary:
Before cutting the cake, only charter members had a picture taken standing with the cake. Needless to say, it was less and less charter members every year. Sad. They didn t even get how exclusive their behaviour was.
Now amalgamated, this finally came to an end. Haven
T noticed anything comparable in our new congregation.

If there is a history, there is always a risk of excluding others based on the memories. Being new in a group that shares a lot of past memories
(Remember when so and so did such and such)- would somewhat feel exclusive.
On the other hand, past experiences could be shared as a story in a more general and more explanatory way and so be made inclusive.
Hanging too much in the past, I do not find beneficial. That s why I am cautious about transferring any past threads over ( which we won t be able to do anyway, as I understand).

If people feel excluded when some shares a past story, then, they need to look at themselves.

Humans get to know each other through story. It is how we open up

My best relationship s were forged through people opening up their lives through story