That's what I mean. Freedom of speech and such. In some places you can't criticize the monarchy, or you go to jail. In some places you can't post Michael Jackson videos or you go to jail and then some. If an admin is editing posts on the subject they are active in the discussion about it, aren't they? And that would leave somebody open for trouble- in that case, them. That's why it gets blurrier and riskier to not do the editing from one location. Or at least the country of origin, right? And so...back to the MJ video. Would the poster be in for a rude surprise should they ever try to go to that same country?

Doesn't hurt to ask these questions first.

Admins do not edit posts. Admins do not read the vast majority of posts
Admins are irrelevant in your scenario

The poster is the only person who would potentially have an issue if you said you were planning something that would break the law in their country.

That issue would be the case regardless of the country you posted. If you are in Canada and post a serious threat to another country and someone somewhere noticed and reported you might flick on a radar, although bloody unlikely

If you are a kid that says you are going to shoot up your school, someone will hopefully flag you

In any situation, the admin is irrelevant. It is the poster.

Hi Kimmio,

Depending on who you talk to somebody is always snooping.  Odds are long that they are not snooping for conversations about pot.

Conversations about pot are, in most jurisdictions, legal conversations.  Using pot, buying pot and selling pot might all be very illegal.  Talking about pot generally falls into free speech and even in countries where they are not so liberal minded they don't care what you do to escape from your worries they care about whether or not you are thinking of rebellion.

This is not where terrorists hang out having clandestine and coded conversations about their next target.

This is also not where slavers hang out dropping coded messages about their next shipment.

It is where people hang out and complain about posting habits.

There is nothing to see here.  We are the electronic equivalent of watching paint dry.  From a security point of view.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Of course for big threats. I'm talking about the kind of humour, criticism and banter that goes on all the time here. Religious freedoms also, are more here. I'm thinking it could go further than that for things we'd consider minor or wouldn't think twice about. You could edit posts. Remove words from posts, take down posts. I don't know. I wouldn't even think it would be wise to visit the site let alone admin it from countries that have far stricter laws. When you act as an admin you are giving them access to everybody's info because you've opened the access up, no? I don't trust that that's not the case. Even if it was an inadvertent mistake that same mistake might carry more weight in a different place- and we have no idea if you're here or there. Help me out here.

Not sure how many times that I have to say it.

Anyone can read all posts. So if it is a post with banter back and forth then there is no requirement to even have an account.

If a government cared, they would just crawl the site.

For pm's, if a government cared they would hak the site.

The travel of an admin is irrelevant.

No one cares. Not a government. Not a corporation. Nobody outside of WC cares what you post at WC.

Nobody is coming to arrest or sue you, me, or anyone, as long as we don't do or say things you can't do or say in the real world. Nobody. Period.

Just don't become a suspect for Dentyne trafficking in Singapore. Forget pot. You can't even chew gum there except for therapeutic purposes. Chronic bad breath? I don't know. ;)

Crazyheart bangs head on floor.

Why crazyheart?

Because you don't live in Singapore.

I was trying to be funny. Do you know international law? I don't.

I know that Singapore police don't care about a Canadian forum.

I have a connection to the Korean mafia. I could ask her some questions if you'd like.

Luckily for you all, I'm beginning to get tired of my own questions today. It seems to me that we should care about these things more and be clear about them, not just educated guesses, but I'm getting tired of reading my own posts repeating myself.

Lol!

Do you plan on moving to Singapore to post on WC2 about chewing gum surreptitiously? No? Then you don't have to worry.

A timely article worth some thought:

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/5449838/

Kimmio, i am unsure how you see that relating to your concern?

Absolutely Google can read these threads but your concern was an admin travelling

Or do you have a further concern?

It's both. It's the ethics...the ethics...of being able to exploit privacy of everyday people. There was another article in the same paper about telecoms giving free access to telephone conversations to governments in different countries. All subject to different laws, of those lands. The same thing happens with Internet although that was not what that article was about so I didn't post it. I have an ethical issue with it. I have an ethical issue with "if you don't want them to read your 'private' communications, act as though they are not private." that is a big ethical violation. It's the sort of thing that USSR was condemned for during communism- and they were seen as sinister for it- when companies do it all the time. That like saying if you don't want Canada Post to read your Christmas cards, don't send any. Opening someone's letters is against the law. Reading PMs is not. And the more companies and organizations piggybacked onto your communications, the more privacy you are giving away...allowing them to track what you buy, where you shop, how you vote, your religion, etc. it's that which I think deserves a conversation and some clear parameters. And the more companies piggybacking in more places (whose laws we may not be aware of), the fewer parameters- and we're never sure what they are. I don't like that. The ethics of it are terrible.

'piggybacking' was the word I was looking for, trying to convey the other day when this conversation went in circles. By working for big companies, doing tech work, around the world, are you not 'piggybacking' our communications when you do your work- or rather when you do admin from work? You may be used to it. It may be an everyday occurrence, totally ethical in your world, and a no-brainer for you. I am not. I'd like some more clarity.

Kimmio, I don't understand why that's a concern for WC2 specifically.  A general internet usage concern, I can understand.

Because if someone works for multinationals- we don't know who, doing intricate tech work most of us really don't understand, and does admin of the site on work time- I do not like that. It's against my personal ethics I guess. This site as a UCCan site was seperate from those corporate entities-even though we are always subject to the wide parameters of google so forth online in general. I just don't feel good about that. It's like small businesses being bought up by big conglomerates and then tracking what you buy everytime you make a purchase- that adds an extra element to- "I'm going to buy a book." where and when do we ask questions about it- or do we just ignore it all? Accept it all? Like the article said "Disney didn't read your diary, your mail, or follow you around the mall." At least they didn't used to. This is a site where I discuss my personal faith, my social life and concerns, my opinions of big issues. I don't want it attached to government and corporate business- as little as possible, or at least, the same as before. The same way I'm opposed to corporate sponsorship of live church events. Some people see no conflict of interest or values there. Okay. But I do. And I'm sad about it because WC is a great idea and if I don't move over I will miss some friends here. I'm asking for some clarity. I got some. The most clarity we got was, "they don't care." Fine but that's not the point. And the code of conduct lays out that nothing is private- which I already know. So I guess I'm just raising personal objections.

Basically, what you seem to be saying Kimmio is you don't trust Pinga because she works for a corporation, right!

You have a choice to make - either trust the new site and the admins to safeguard your interests on the internet.....or you forgo participation in WC2.

Considering your stress levels with trusting the site and its admins, seems the choice is obvious.  You do, however, like to have a place to sound off.....so.....

Advice, as has been offered many times here - wait and see how things develop.  If the people who do particpate aren't compromised....then you can make an informed decision. 

I don't like our whole world being corporatized- it may be what some do for a living, and that on it's own should remain on it's own- don't mix it with WC2. When the lines get blurred I have a value conflict with that. Others don't.

I like to have a sounding board, you're right. Maybe WC2 will be better in some ways but I am going to wait it out. I am as curious as everybody what it will be like but I am not going to jump over just yet.

Kimmio

If you don't want to be tracked you had better stay clear of Google research. Everytime we use it we are tracked. Facebook is also really really bad for tracking our info. I try to keep my browser history files  and cookies cleaned out often. I also use Norton to prevent pop up ads and virus , its  not too bad. I'm not sure what's available on your iphone along this line. I haven't used an iphone.

Google  search engines are  also automatically hooked up to   WC since 2006  as they will be to WC2 in order to get publicity and new people to  join. Its just the way it is in today's media  world.

You have written so much personal  on the WC ( as have I ) about yourself that its not much use to close the barn door after the horse is gone. Sorry. Google has no doubt picked up most of what you wrote  on everybody's threads or topics on the WC over the years. That's a whole lot of information about yourself   in cyberspace whether you like it or not.

I hope I'm understanding you properly re your concerns.  I'm not sure what you think Pinga can do to you? Can you explain yourself better? Do you mean she would promote your personal  info.to others, use your info. to sell whatever....?....I'm rather lost....?

Here's a topic on Google from politics:

I know we're being tracked all the time. That's not really the point. Please read my last post. I don't know if you read the article I posted today?

Does working for a mid-sized Canadian corporation based in one province qualify for your concern here, or does it have to be multinational? In fact, our parent company does own two companies in the US so the group as a whole is modestly multi-national. However, the whole kit and kaboodle is owned by a businessman based here in London and is not traded on any exchanges at this point, so it's really a Canadian business with tentacles reaching across the border.

To be honest, Kimmio, would you rather trust a civil servant with the job? Because I can tell you some wonderful horror stories about public sector IT. I wouldn't trust some of them with a non-networked, standalone, fifteen year-old computer, let alone Wondercafe2. And they are more than happy to spend their tax-funded work time on side projects.

The fact is, most of the best sysadmins out there work in corporate or government IT so you're stuck. Yes, there are self-employed consulting types who could do it but given that it's their bread-and-butter and they get paid by the hour, not a salary, not all of them would do it for free.

Mendalla

I am not understanding your concern here.

Is it someone access wondercafe (or wondercafe2 from work?  If so, I am going to guess that there are those who do so.  Personally, I use my blackberry which is a personal device to do so; however, I may be misunderstanding your concern.

Is your concern that people take personal phone calls or look at personal sites, such as wondercafe on company time?

Or is your concern that someone accesses wondercafe or wondercafe2 on a computer that isn't there's, such as a work machine, a shared machine, a machine at a library or hotel?

Or is your concern specifically about admin work on some machine other than a personal machine?   I personally don't use my corporate laptop for personal work, but, honestly, if I did, it would likely be the safest place to do it!

Kimmio, again, I am not following your concern.

Are you concerned about anyone accessing the site from a corporate computer?

If you are being tracked, it would be, as Stardust indicated, Google, or whatever browser you are using, whatever spam cookies you have on your machine, whatever sites you connect from (ie starbucks), whomever is sniffing the network at the location you are at (ie starbucks), ummm...any malware you have on your machine, and...let me think, your internet provider.

So, whatever you or anyone browses on wondercafe could be captured by those cookies intentionally after your browsing.  If you have malware it can go further (unlikely, but, hey, it could).

Any PMs you send could go to email of the person you send it to and of course, are exposed ot the browser of the person you send it to and your own.  So, they are subject to the same risk as the other stuff.

In noe of the above, does being an Admin or a member make any differene.

Edit

Kimmio

I read the Toronto Star everyday. Re your OP I'm not reading about the average person being prosecuted for something they wrote or said on the net. I don't think  its a very common occurence.

I'm too lazy to research the story but there's a young guy in the U.S. news this or last week who posted a video on You Tube saying he was going to kill people. The police were called to his house. They didn't even look at his video. He did go and gun down some people. Too late, nobody had really paid attention.

I know there have been a few  people charged on Facebook for various offences and possibly the net figured in catching terrorists but I'm pretty sure the average joe (like us) has nothing to worry about. The US congress..?...not sure.....?.. or public have  meetings against censorship on the net. I have a link about that.

P.S. Graeme  Decarie is still alive and walking around despite his somewhat atrocious  blogs on the net if you care to google...ahem.

Yes, I read the article

I'm not getting it.  If someone works for a multinational company and coaches a soccer team, it doesn't mean that the multinational owns the soccer team.

WC2 isn't owned by a multinational company.

Note:  wondercafe is likely on a hosted server, possibly as a managed service.

What does this mean?  The United Church of Canada staff would be working on servers anywhere in the world.  I am not privy to the solution they used, but, I would be super surprised if they had physical servers in house running wondercafe.

I think we asked before, and they did use a hosting service, though may have been managing the application through their IT team.

If I'm understanding correctly, Kimmio feels that if you worked for CocaCola, your goal would be to slip coke products into everything you drink, and possibly, to do investigations into what you drink, and provide information back to the mother ship about your usage......if you were an admin on wondercafe, but not if you were a member on wondercafe.

I think it's using work time and computers and tools built and owned by big companies and being in unknown locations that sketches me out. It's ethics. It's privacy. The same challenges being discussed right now- in many conversations today- we shouldn't ignore those conversations here- people unhappy about how much reach companies abd governments have into our personal and private lives. It's different laws in different places. It's a bunch of things that are kind of tied together. My faith and big business don't mix- and things are changing over soon. And I don't trust big business. People who work for it- okay, if they don't represent it in everything they do. The church is not supposed to become absorbed into everything business. WC2 is not the church but WC is where I discuss my faith. Probably the only place I really do.

I'm not following Kimmio.

Work time:  does it matter if it is on your personal computer or your work computer? Do you see a difference?  yes or no?

Computers owned by big companies?  Are you concerned about them only for admins or for all users?  

Tools built ?  What tools ?  Are you referring to browsers built by Google? Microsoft? IE? 

Unknown locations?  Is your presumption that being at Starbucks in Canada is safer than Starbucks in the US?

What elements of the above are related to ethics?

For privacy are you only concerned about admins or are you also concerned about users?  I am trying to understand your fear?

How do you see wondercafe2 or wondercafe involved in "big business"?

My gut tells me that you are concerned about me personally.  That it doesn't matter if I am on my work computer or personal computer, that your lack of trust is the same.  That you do trust Mendella or Chansen, regardless of the computer they are on.

Is that correct?

Those of us in those roles know what we have to protect against, and why.  We also have change control and privacy deep to the core, or we don't keep our jobs.  It is as simple as that.  

If I didn't protect the assets (data/servers), I would not have the role that I do.  If i didn't understand ethics and live and breathe it, then I wouldn't have my job. 

That is the same for anyone that I know that has kept their job.  We "release" folks who break those rules.  

Hmm... Do I want to tell you how I am feeling now? Well, Pinga, I sense that you have a higher level role for a bigger place. A very big place and you work with some very big programs. Major managerial programs. And other than your general knowledge of how to admin you shouldn't be using any work 'tools' for WC2- including time and equipment. As for you to have a beer with that's not part of this- but you know, I really wish you didn't come across as so managerial because it's so opaque I can't read you.

Well, myt brain is a work tool, right?  

Most of the tools that I would use at work are in the public domain.

My skills are built through years of practice. You want an admin to know how to be an admin.

There are tools for example that Aaron would use. 

What are your specific concerns?  What do you think that I would do? 

Yes. You know what you have to protect against and why and we are the dummies. I know. We don't need to know it's over our heads. There needs to be no privacy except for that.

Still not feeling secure about what your company has access to. How do I know? And even though most of my wondermail is not deeply personal anymore than what I write here- it's mine, and my decision as to who should read it as far as I'm concerned- but it doesn't sound like you think we need to be protected from that- or that your ethical belief is the same- and so there's where a core value conflict comes in. What I write here is public what I write in PMs is private- if not it should be.

I'm not getting it.

Chemguy has a company vehicle.  He is allowed to use it for personal use, as long as their is a log for company vs. personal use.

When highway driving he has to use another company to give his trip plan, whether it's personal or business.  It's for safety.  The truck has has GPS tracking as well as info about speeding, etc.

As a passenger, I do not think they care about tracking us to figure out our patterns or anything like that.  He can go to a strip club as long as it's not on company time, no one cares.

Kimmio

My workplace cannot read your wondermail.

Period.

If you are unsure, ask Mendalla, or Chansen.

If you are still unsure and dont' trust them.  Ask someone else.

Here is your worst case scenario.

An Admin logs into wondercafe from an unprotected machine or a machine that has been impacted by malware.

A sniffer picks up the password that I used to log in.  (the sniffer would have to be inline with the network traffic.  Basically on my machine, or one of the routers/switches  or on the machine that is hosting wondercafe2.

The sniffer captures the password .

The conmmand/control centre sends the data back to the control site.

The control site deems it worthy to look at.

The person then logs in.

That person then starts to poke around looking for financial data like bank accounts.

if they dont' find financial data, they are unlikely to proceed.

Now, why are you not at risk with me.  

I am a security conscious person. 

I am a target for phishing attacks and so am anal about keeping my machine clean.

If a sniffer was on a router, it would be somewehre external, such as at the coffeeshop or somewhere else.  Basically, you or anyone else is as unsafe there.

I change my admin passwords regularly. 

Ok, wait, do you think that I work for the anti-Christ/

We aren't greenpeace.  We aren't really of interest to anyone.  I can think of one site where I would be concerned if a council member was involved wtih them

DP

Kimmio - I sense that your present anxiety is related to upcoming change, and things occuring beyond your control, which is a bit of a recurrent theme on which you post.   More talk about it is clearly not helpful to you, and seems to be increasingly irritating to others.

Pinga - I have a sense that any number of logical explanations on your part are not likely to allay Kimmio's anxiety.  Hasn't shown that effect so far, so that leads me to this conclusion. 

Might be time to both call a truce on this one.

Understood, Carolla

I was attempting to explain the technology and where risk was, ie why you don't put banking information in an untrusted location.