Anything about the United Church? Creed? Song of Faith?

My thought is that those would be part of each topic CH.  Hence "what does the UCC believe about?

A discussion group sounds like a great idea.  For people like me though the title could be chosen better.  It sends out negative vibes to me about the times I've been told I'm not a good enough Christian (or worse - a heretic) for asking some questions that demanded thoughtful responses!  Unless I was very confident about the make up of the group I'd stay away. 

Would your group be interested in learning about the religions that preceeded Christianity and ow their rituals became rituals of the church?  Most Christians I know seem ignorant about this.

- Other denominations.

- The World Council of Churches.

- Human sexuality.

Kay,

THere would not be enough time to go into church/religious history save as a tangential thing as it relates to other topics.  But many people in the group would find it interesting.  In this place the title is relatively unimportant since the description of topic is really how it is presented, not as a title so much.

Aquila,

why include sexuality?  Many people in the UCC are in fact tired of those discussions (although I would probably touch on it as part of the discussion about humanity/human nature).  But our relations with other denominations is certainly one I had missed.

You're funny Gord,

The short answer to what does the United Church believe about all of the above is - whatever they want.

Or more simply - anything but the obvious truth.

Saul_now_Paul, what do you mean, anything but the obvious truth? What is the obivious truth you speak of?

Especially for a group considering confirmation/reaffirmation, you may want to look at:

• discipleship
• faith

Hi Saul_now_Paul,

GordW will be teaching potential future members of the United Church some of the basics of the Christian faith. It's an important job. Perhaps we can help him do it well? If we think some current members seem confused, does that not make it all the more important to make things clearer for the future members?

RAN,

I believe that the faith found in most mainline churches would not meet SnP's standards.  His version of truth would have me tell people they have to take the Scripture literallly and that ain't gonna happen.

But SnP has raised one point. THere is no way to provide THE answer to "What does the United Church belive about...?" because there is rarely one answer. The answerto the question is to talk about the breadth of answers found under our tent and encourage folks to discover where they stand.  Of course the same could be said about faith in general--there is rarely only ONE "true" faithful answer.

I notice that you are thinking about a session on "The church .  . "   Does that include an overview of how that UCC works?   Local church, Presbytery, Conference, General Council?  What each does?  What each is responsible for?   I find that there is a great deal of misunderstanding within the congregation about these matters. 

Possibly seeler.

In part the content will be determined by the group of course.  It does no good to design something that doesn't answer the questions they bring with them.

¹⁵and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. ¹⁶All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, ¹⁷so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

SnP,

not everyone shares the same POV as you do.  Surely you can recognize that and stop being so incredibly arrogant one of these days.   I tend to follow the logic that Scripture is far too important to take literally.  We WE will talk about what it means to take Scripture seriously, to engage with it, to explore and argue with it.  Just not to take it literally or treat it as inerreant or infallible.

I find this fascinating.  SnP seems to have locked God in a cupboard somewhere, only to be found if we all agree on what door to open.  I wasn't aware this could be done.

You do realize of course that the only Scriptures this passage could possibly be referring to is the collection we call the Old Testament right?  And that using those Scriptures to understand the life and work of Jesus is an exercise in (re)interpreting them?

And of course there is a severe logical flaw in claiming that Scripture is infallible or inerrant or God-breathed because Scripture says it is.  Also, nothing in that passage says anything about how we interpret Scripture--metaphor, allegory, myth, literal truth are all allowable understandings

Gord, if we on the Cafe were really good and well behaved   is there anyway we can join in? (Or would we scare the United Church right out of your class?)Richard Bott was going to try this but i don't think it happened. Where is he, by the way?

SnP - Gord says that he is going to have a discussion group.  Got that?   A DISCUSSION.   People will share ideas, understandings, interpretations, stories.

I don't see how you could participate in any discussion group because you seem to think that you have all the answers. 

You know, that verse gets waaay over used. All too many use it as an explanation of how one becomes a Christian. However, that's not actually what the verse is talking about. The verse appears in Revelation as part of the message to the Laodicea-Church. It is addressed to Christians. The verse is not about salvation. It is about sanctification.

Ooh, that would be fun. I'd like to scare the United Church right out of the class

Aquila - I'm not sure I understand.  A UCC person is thinking about starting a class about what the UCC believes, and you think it would be fun to scare the United Church right out of the class?  

Yep. I want to scare them into being good Bible-thumping Gospel-preaching Baptists. Last one into the dunk tank is a rotten egg.

Aren't you afraid that instead you might scare them right out of the church altogether.

You need to accept the fact that some people find your religion repulsive.  Your "tough guy" approach reinforces the arguments of people like Richard Dawkins.

I suspect Aquila was speaking with a tongue planted in his cheek....

Firmly.

How about:

Confirming our faith with God (We believe in God: who has created and is creating) 2 sessions.    Look at the creed and articles of Faith and what it means to belong to a church

Knowing Jesus as a Christian (...who has come in Jesus, the word made flesh, to reconcile and make new) 2 sessions where you discuss Jesus - images, titles, stories, pictures of Jesus, movies about Jesus, the gospels

Gifts of the Holy Spirit and Stewardship (who works in us and others by the Spirit) 2 sessions discussing the Holy Spirit, spiritual gifts, what gifts you have been given by God and 1 sessions devoted to stewardship and what it means to be a steward.

The history and importance of Christian Community (we trust in God.  We are called to be the Church:  to celebrate God's presence) 2 sessions discussing what is a church, why we go, what is a community of faith etc.  session 2 talks about how the United Church came to be and the 4 denominations that make it up

Social Justice as an expression of our Faith ( to live with respect in creation, to love and serve others, to seek justice and resist evil) 2 sessions discussion social justice and the Bible and social justice in the United Church (1 session)

Proclaiming Jesus through action and word (to proclaim Jesus, crucified and risen, our udge and our hope) 2 sessions discussion how we show we are Christians (touch on James, Matthew 25.  Look at outreach and ministry within the church.

What the Church says (to live with respect in creation, to love and serve others, to seek justice and resist evil.  to proclaim Jesus, crucified and risen, our judge and our hope) where you talk about the social positions and policies of the United Church.  1 session

Christianity as a message for all our lives (In life, in death, in life beyond death)  2 sessions where you discuss Worship, the sacraments, Holy days, weddings and funerals

Being Part of the Body of Christ (God is with us, We are not alone. Thanks be to God)  2 sessions where you discuss Christian calling, ministry and ways to be faithful in the world

Good luck 

I like that Meredith.  I am guessing you did that once right?

I knew aquila was joshing, Gord.

Meredith, 

That would make a wonderful study group!  The New Creed has stood the test of time very well, I would say.

To Gord - yes and refined it along the way.

Thanks Paradox - the creed is a great basis for study.  My friend David Bruce has an adult study based on the creed  called "Jesus 24/7" which is excellent.

Nice story SnP.  I assume you are the surgeon?

I know you were responding out of a concern to resist narrowness, so you chose to emphasize the breadth found in the United Church. However the United Church has not used its breadth as a reason not to provide its/her answer to questions of belief. In fact the UCC website offers a "brief summary of our beliefs" (dated February 2009). The church is broad and so of course the answer is broad. You may find something there that is of value for the people in your group.

 I thought that the only thing the UCC agreed upon was to disagree on everything.

Now that would be a sad state of affairs.

some days, some days.....alas

Snp I prefer to to keep the door closed when I know there is a salesman on the other side trying to sell me something I don't want and trying to make me believe I can't live without it. Nice try though keep knocking on those doors there is a sucker born every minute.

I like your outline Meredith ... lots of breadth for discussion.

This is the list of topics chosen for the UCC web site (http://www.united-church.ca/beliefs/overview).

For a broader audience than Gord's confirmation/re-affirmation group obviously, but the web page does offer a very basic statement of these UCC beliefs.

Do these statements have some sort of status within the UCC? Obviously individual members' personal beliefs may well be more diverse.

Gord a nice list and some nice additions - my bias is to forget the creeds and the song of faith and you be the teacher about your theology, for in one sense biolography is theology.

I recommend a book by Phil Clayton - Transforming Christian theology - I am using to teach theology to lay worship leaders.

Now as home work they could look at the song of faith ( a dogs breakfeast) and the creeds to test their emerging theological position.  Imean begin with their present faith stance and see how that fits with tradiiton and reconstruction.

Gord,

As I understand it, you have a group of potential members of the UCC (by confirmation or reaffirmation of faith) and you plan to help them understand what the United Church believes about a variety of significant topics.

For people who don't already know what the UCC believes on these topics, doesn't this mean you need to explain something about the UCC beliefs, before the group can discuss them?

Hi Saul_now_Paul,

We are probably off-topic here in discussing the UCC statement of belief on the bible, since this statement may play no part at all in Gord's study group, so I will try to be brief.

You're right that this UCC declaration places less value on the Bible than the Bible passages you quoted, but it places a much higher value on the Bible than many of the postings we see on Wondercafe!

For people who value the Bible, the defensive comments about slavery and stoning may appear damaging and unnecessary in such a high-level statement. However many people do not know the bible well (some barely at all), and some of them are prejudiced against it because of passages that refer to slavery, stoning, etc. This statement may at least encourage people in this position to look at the Bible more seriously.

I agree that the declaration is rather weak, but I really think it's more positive than you suggest. Isn't it good to know that, among other things, "the Bible is central to the United Church of Canada" and "can bring us closer to God" in "personal prayer and devotion"? As in our personal lives, translating beliefs into actions is often the real challenge.

Saul -Paul - I don't know how many years you have sat in UCC pews and attended UCC study groups that you are such an expert on what they do and believe.  I've been in the UCC all my life, though I have occasionally visited other denominations, once attended a Baptist Bible study group for a season, and participated in many multi-faith services.

I find that the UCC gives a lot of attention to the Hebrew scriptures and honor it.  There is usually a passage from the Hebrew scriptures, as well as a psalm read during service every Sunday, as well as a passage from the gospels and from the epistles, and the minister may choose to preach on any one or more of them.    During weekly Bible study we often use the Hebrew scripture for our starting point.  And we study it in depth:  time and place it was written; who was the likely writer; who was the intended reader; why was it considered important at the time; what does it say to us now.

Also, in reference to slavery and/or stoning - we don't need to refer to the Hebrew scriptures - they are present in the Christian scriptures as well.

One caution.  In discussions of what we believe we can fall into the trap of you have to believe this proposition as the truth - it is turning doctrine into dogma.  Doctrine is a movable discussion of this is our understanding at the moment and it is the best in the sense of how language works and reflects a tradition.  But it is not fixed in stone.  This is why it is better to begin with what people actually think - and then test it with tradition to come up with a new theological understanding.

For example the God/world relationship - how do we understand God - most of people fall into these categories - functional ( de facto) atheists in the sense God is not experienced.  Or therapeutic diests, this is where God exists but is not active and our job is to make one another feel better, have better families.  Ot moralistic diests - this is where our job is to change the world and to have better ethics - we are known by what we do. 

These all tell us something about how we see ourselves in relation to the world.  God is not active or can be experienced.

The early church was a time of faith in God as efficacious in daily life now we are in the time of belief, orthodoxy defines us.  Or the ablility to quote scripture or believe in such things as substitutionary atonement or Jesus died for our sins defines the christian - as if these doctrines were not developed over time - have become dogma which define -

What I am suggesting is if the question is what does the UC believe means what is true doctrine then the way to get at this as an assumption is to begin with what they actually have faith in ( to find their belief structure or values that ground them).