Wow, revolve...yes, I agree...

I like your questions: "But if these young women of colour were in danger from some familial violence, how do the complexities of belonging, acceptance, and exclusion play into the situation "  (though, the one woman was not young)

I wonder if we will ever know what the root cause or influences were on this one.. or for that matter, any family violence.

Yet, there are patterns which you have pointed out

** the way the papers jumped on "honour killing"

** our ability to reach out to women at risk, and especially for recent immigrants  -- i imagine there are folks on this site who work or have worked in crisis centres who may have insight as to those challenges.

Thanks for this post, and I will be interested to follow how folks respond.

What are you saying? ... That you were dismayed when you thought that these women had been victims of a hate crime but were later disappointed to find the murder was perpetrated by members of their own family? 

If it was an "honour killing" what is the problem with saying so? Do you have some information that it was not?  If it were some mad cry of loneliness and despair by, say, a deranged husband/father the killer would usually take his or her own life too and not try to high-tail it for Bahrain with other family members instead.  The investigators have told what they know and they have said it is an honour killing.  Are you suggesting this is erroneous?  A conspiracy?   Are you trying to foment resentment? 

The police believe they have the perpetrators.  Maybe we should await the results of the trial (assuming there is no guilty plea forthcoming) before ringing the alarums of  "racism, misogyny, and xenophobia".

(On the other hand,  I love the way your tone reaks of delicate sensibilities offended.)

Agreed, I'm tired of calls of racism when an announcment of this sort is made. I agree that the people who have been arrested need their days in court and I will not rush to say they are guilty (in an earlier post I was careful to use the term alleged perps.)

However, if the police believe this was an honour killing than why would they call it something else?  If some cultures happen to have Honour Killings as a feature (even if it is rare, I'm not trying to generalize) then why in heaven's name would we try to downplay it for the sake of trying not to offend someone.  

If I was part of a culture that had Honour Killings attached to it, I might want to look within my community and ask some tough questions, before I shot the messenger.

The three girls and the woman who were killed were not "women of colour".  they were new immigrants to Canada from Afghanistan. 

At first report of a tragic but odd accident, the family was given great support and sympathy.  A father and mother who brought their young children here for a better life.

the second scenario of a family that killed it's daughters and first wife due to family honour is truely sad.  The police were careful to not say honour killing but to say that there were family tensions and issues.

Later storeis have shown a teenage girl who was dating a boy/man her family didn't approve of.

I am puzzled by your concerns for Kingston and Queens.  The location of the crime had no bearing on the deaths.  I don't think it ever did.  There was never an issue that someone in Kingston murdered four people because there were from Afghanistan.  To me the only issue of Kingston was to try to understand how on earth a car could acidentally drive into the canal.

From the very first moment the "accident " has seemed odd .

Canadians can't be polite and not call out a family that would murder it's children because they disobey the rules.  You are right, it has been alleged before that there has been an honour killing here in an Ontario teens murder.  I have lost track of that case but I don't think it has gone to court yet.

I think revolve's concerns are reasonable.

For a start, I went to Queen's. It was then the ultimate living grave of standard issue white, church-going Canadians with thei spoiled children attending the classes. To hear that there has been a spate of race crimes there surprises me.

Secondly, while I can understand the police and the news media jumping on the race and cultural aspects of t his crime, it does encourage xenophobia. I have never, for example, heard of the police or the news media linking the crimes of the Mafia to Roman Catholicism. Nor have I heard them suggesting that drug dealing in schools by native born Canadians is a result of Canadian culture, though it is surely reasonable to think it might be.

Okay, I think there is an 800 pound gorilla in the room here.  Everyone is tiptoeing around trying not to have to say  .... well, you know.  The insurance companies have a saying they use when they are accused of discriminating against the young by charging them higher insurance rates.  They say, "We don't discriminate.  We calculate."  What they mean of course is that they calculate their risks and their premiums on the basis of their payouts.  Let's do a little calculation.  How many honour killings were committed this year in Canada (or in the world or any particular country) by Christians?  By Hindus?  By Jains?  By Farsis?  By Muslims?  Add them up.  Calculate the percentage for each.  What did you get?

Qwerty -- when a father kills his daughter....it is murder. when a husband kills his wife -- it is murder.   In some cases, regardless of one's religion, it is the same warped mentality -- she was dressing wrong, she spoke back, she did xyz....regardless it is murder.    If a culture calls it an "honor killing" it is no less murder, nor should we let that kind of language get in the way of calling it what it is... 

In addition, the reason I am hesitant to jump, and has been...is sometimes it is about greed....oh, these folks are insured...we can reduce our costs by killing them...warped brains are just that.... so, i'm willing to wait to hear what they find out (not that we will ever truly know)

Perhaps because there haven't been any Roman Catholic Honour Killings in a while Graeme.   The statement the police made is a reasonable disclosure of the facts that they have at hand.  I think it encourages public discussion not xenophobia.  The word xenophobia gets tossed around as a means to shut down debate. Similarly when you discuss Israel, all that someone has to do is through out the term anti-semitic and the room goes quiet.  That is dangerous in a free and democratic society such as ours.

By the way for the Record for those who are not from this area of Ontario, Kingston and the Eastern portion of Ontario is a lovely place. Travel here and you will find very friendly, family orientated small towns and Cities; the sorts of places where people still leave their doors unlocked. Whenever I travel away from here, I'm always happy to get back home.

"I have never, for example, heard of the police or the news media linking the crimes of the Mafia to Roman Catholicism."

That's because their crimes don't directly follow from religious edicts, whereas in the case of honour killings, they do. 

AH, Holden, so you're Eastern Ontariio - the truth is out - white, protestant, church-going, staid, the whole ball of wax. probably drink tea.

I reconize that the intent of describing these as religion killings may not be xenophobic. But it certainly has that effect in  practice.

As to the killings coming directly from religious edicts it is, in fact, no unkown for some groups to claim the right to kill based on Christianity (and perhaps even on free thinking). I don't know whether Islan in general orders or condones such killings.

graeme

In fact, Imams all over the country very strongly condemned the idea of "honour killings" in the wake of these charges.   It is cultural, not religious.  It is, however, fair to point out that the religion has proven unable to control the secular cultural drives on this front.

Much as the RCC was never able to control the IRA.

"I reconize that the intent of describing these as religion killings may not be xenophobic. But it certainly has that effect in  practice."

What do you suppose they do, not report on the killings for fear of enflaming public opinion? 

I agree with Pinga's post above ... when someone plans & kills another, we call that murder in Canada.  That's how I would like to see the media refer to it free_thinker.   Attaching other labels infers different meanings, to me anyway. 

"I agree with Pinga's post above ... when someone plans & kills another, we call that murder in Canada."

And when a gay couple gets beaten up for holding hands, we don't just call it an assault, we call it a hate-crime.  The murder of this girls was a very specific kind of crime - it was an honour killing.  To pretend it isn't and that it's somehow just like any other murder is  to deny these girls recognition of the wrong that was done to them. 

I can't believe we're actually having this discussion.  Are we so steeped in politically-correct dogma that we can't call an honour-killing what it is for fear of offending someone?  What kind of morally bankrupt cultural sensitivity tries to sanitize a crime this horrific? 

That's really interesting free_thinker - it wasn't an issue, for me anyway, of political correctness. 

Perhaps we've got  different interpretations of what the label 'honour killing' infers.  I agree that the situation IS horrific.   Isn't all murder horrific?  

Why is it necessary to delineate 'honour killing'?  If anything, in my view, it suggests that somewhere in the world this is behaviour is considered to be okay or legitimate.  I don't think it is.   I think it is murder. 

I think it is simplistic to say that 'murder" is "murder" is "murder".  There are good reasons to differentiate murders into various typologies.  If, as happened in Israel, an otherwise normal looking person walks into a community centre meeting wearing a mask and pulls out an automatic weapon and executes a dozen people who are part of an identifiable minority then drops his gun, takes off his mask and walks out of the meeting to fade into the crowd ... be very, very afraid especially if you are part of the minority targetted.  If you are not part of the minority you will rest more easily.  If a child has been abducted and killed (as in Woodstock) public fear levels rise far above what they might have had someone killed their spouse in a domestic dispute.  An honour killing is like a domestic dispute.  If someone dies at least the public does not become terror stricken for fear that they will be next.  It is therefore important to inform people so far as we can of the circumstances of these kinds of events. 

Infotainment aside, news is generally sought by the public so that they may adjust their behaviour sufficiently so that they may protect themselves and their property.  The idea that the cause of a murder might be known and not fully divulged to the public on the basis that people might make conclusions about the participants is ludicrous.  News is gathered and disseminated for the precise intention that it will be the source of conclusions and decisionmaking.  Otherwise it is worthless gossip. 

If I am told that there have been many car jackings in Toronto then I must be afraid everywhere I go there.  If I am informed that car jackings are being carried out in the Jane-Finch area I can avoid driving there but travel without fear in other areas of town.  If I am told that 80% of murders on Saturday night occur at 3:00 am in the morning in the parking lots of hip -hop clubs, I can be sure to be go only where rock and roll is played and be in bed by 1:00 am.  And so on.  If I hear that a number of females were found in a car that mysteriously came to be at the bottom of the first lock north of Kingston on the Rideau Canal I might become very concerned for the safety of my daughter who lives not so far from there.  As afraid and concerned as I might be, I am a male and not (apparently) part of the target group.  My daughter being female would seem to be ... and would be justifiably terrified along with every other woman in the surrounding counties.  However, if it is know that this was an honour killing then I as well as my daughter  along with  many, many women can feel safe knowing they are not involved and not in the target group. 

I just detest the kind of  politically correct paternalism that would subject me and my loved ones to unnecessary fear and danger by implementing a wilful state of ignorance upon the public in the name of avoiding intangible damage to something intangible (namely damage to an already tarnished reputation).

Hate crime is an item from our laws.  We use it to state that more significant punishment should be used.

I think carolla and I may be coming from the same viewpoint...honour killing seems to indicate it is ok in some religous way...

snip - swear word -- end snip

insert  'that's crap'  - end insert

it is murder perpertrated typically by males against younger females...who are in their servitude.

in that way, it is the same as a man who beats his wife....there are no excuses allowed by anyone's faith groups, nor do I think most faith groups support their actions, any more than we as Christians supported the idiot who didnt take his daugher to the doctor.

An honour killing is not "hate crime".  Talking about honour killing is not hate crime either.  Announcing that an honour killing has taken place is not hate crime.  Why are we talking about hate crime?

(see Free-thinker's post above...he asked a question)

freethinker, I was not advocating that we rethink how we present news of a murder. I just that the use of the term honour killing encourages xenophobia. It happens. That's all I said.

As to the culture condoning murder, and therefore making the crime worse that other murders - well, I have had the thrill of knowing a few murderers. They, like most convicts I knew, felt their crimes were quite justified. I met very few criminals who felt they deserved what they were getting.

Well I think that it is necessary to delineate honour killing not only for the reasons I laid out above but also for the reason that honour killing is murder and therefore horrific but even more, because it is murder by one's own family members and therefore is especially horrific and especially insidious. 

Consider this story from the Muslima News ...

Pakistan: Honor Killing – Statistics from Balochistan

October 25, 2008

Startling “honor” killing statistics from just 1 region of Pakistan.

Honour killings

(The Dawn, Pakistan)

Thirty-eight women died at the hands of their relatives, who killed them on the pretext of protecting their honour during the past three months in Balochistan.

Addressing a press conference here on Tuesday, provincial coordinator of the Aurat Foundation Haroon Dawood Durrani said that 46 women had been killed in the last quarter

I agree qwerty - I think the labels do serve to segment the crimes & make many people feel separate from them, and therefore more secure.   Or perhaps less secure, depending which side of the fence one finds onself on.

If the media reports ... a woman has been murdered and her husband/lover/partner/boyfriend/fgirlfriend/uncle has been arrested & charged ... does this convey the same information as calling it a 'domestic dispute',or 'crime of passion' etc?    I think sometimes the labels infer blame on the victim of the crime too.  In calling the Kingston murder an 'honour killing' -  it seems to infer the girls had done something dishonourable - at least in the eyes of their killers.  

I'm just musing over this a bit tonight ... but going to bed now!   

or horror upon horror ... the story in this blog post  ...

Statistics on Honor Killings

Hey qwerty ... you & I were pounding the keys simultaneously, so now I've just read your further post before retiring.  I am so aware of  and disturbed by the horrible crimes and acts of violence against women.  I have for many years been part of an organization that works on those issues around the world.  

What I think I'm hearing in your post above, is that the sense of betrayal that occurs when family members kill their kin is so heinous, those killings seem worse than, say, gang murders or those committed otherwise.   I agree.   My sense is that some of the language labels minimize that when it comes to familial violence.  Just my opinion.  

And now I really am signing off ... I vow not to read anything more til tomorrow!

Or horror piled on horror on horror ... maybe the stories told in the top 6 headings returned by a Google search of "honour killings statistics" ...

• Reuters AlertNet - JORDAN: Special report on honour killings

  The Ministry of Interior's official statistics on honour killings throw little light on the extent of the practice. There were 15 honour killings out of a ...
  www.alertnet.org/.../6f6d5166f24330a0e8edcb79796ca5cc.htm - Cached - Similar

• Commodifying Honor in Female Sexuality: Honor Killings in Palestine

  Given that honor killings often remain a private family affair, no official statistics are available on the practice or its frequency. ...
  www.merip.org/mer/mer206/ruggi.htm - Cached - Similar
  by S Ruggi - 1998 - Cited by 14 - Related articles

• Europe Grapples with "Honor Killings" | Europe | Deutsche Welle ...

  Lack of awareness and statistics. Though experts say that honor killings are on the rise in Europe, the problem is hobbled by a lack of awareness, ...
  www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,1244406,00.html - Cached - Similar

• Kamil Pasha » Statistics on Honor Killings

  Is it that there are no reliable statistics? That honor killings are entered into the books as suicides? What is the suicide rate of women in eastern ...
  www.kamilpasha.com/2008/08/.../statistics-on-honor-killings/ - Cached - Similar

• Honor killing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

  Precise statistics on how many women die every year in such honor killings are hard to come by, as many crimes are never reported, said Myria Boehmecke of ...
  en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing - Cached - Similar

• IRIN Asia | Asia | Pakistan | PAKISTAN: Focus on honour killings ...

  Honour killings and domestic violence are depressingly common still in Pakistan ... HRCP statistics for the first 10 months of 2001 reveal at least 379 ...
  www.irinnews.org/report.aspx?reportid=19247 - Cached - Similar

-see if you can work your way through the final story (IRIN is a humanitarian news project of the UN) without taking a break to get some air ...

-the first one (REUTERS humanitarian Alertnet) is equally grim but somehow less harrowing to read

well, I'm not sure what all that proves - except that what we consider especially horrible depends on who we are.

the latter decades of the twentieth century, the American government financed and led the organization of the killing of 200,000 Maya in guatemala. that's probably more than all the honour killings in the world in that period. But I have never seen a similar reaction of horror to it.

I don't offer that as a cute point. It is simply that there is nothing objective or quantifiable about what constitutes really horrible in a killing. It becomes more horrible if it touches on us in some way. In this case, honour killing touches on our (quite recently discovered) sense of the equality of women.

But we really don't give much of damn about Maya indians. Accordingly, the thought of American tax dollars going to the murder of a whole village and then the bulldozing of the houses and the bodies right down to children and babies as well as their mothers doesn't bother us a whole lot.

Really, the line between categorizing the ugliness of crimes and drifting into xenophobia can be a very thin one.

graeme

-the "Europe Grapples" story deals with certain of the matters we've been dicussing here, namely, the dissemination of information and the importance of naming the crime and identifying it by its type ...

The article states inter alia that:

(I've bolded the phrase 'as simple murders' to highlight it as an echo of the words used in corolla's and pinga's earlier suggestion that we should "just call it murder" and to highlight the fallacy in that advice.)

I understand what you're saying Graeme.  We can't do much about those Maya Indians but maybe we can do a better job on the next carnage ... or this one.  I didn't know about the Mayan outrage but I know about this one.

Agreed fully

So Graeme everything is relative and the West doesn't have the moral ground to tell others what they can do? That is the Chomsky answer for everything right?

The problem is that if we accept that then we have to say to hell with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. I'm not willing to do that, I'll risk the xenophobia label, I'm kinda getting used to it anyway.

I think that what the info from qwerty shows is that within certain cultures the males of a family feel free to kill females who have crossed some "family behaviour " line.

I don't think those males feel they have murdered.  Certainly the cases so far that are winding their way through our court systems have shown fathers and brothers confident and even proud of their behaviour.

that is why it isn't a regular domestic dispute or even a regular murder.

with the exception of some sociopaths, anyone who committs murder knows they have committed a crime.

but in some cultures this honour killing of a disobedient females isn't seen as a crime by the perpetrator.  It seems justified to them and often to the community.  Only lately have the governments tried to control, track and rein it is.

If , as alleged, this father and brother with the acceptance of the mother or perhaps participation of the mother, have killed 4 female family memebers because they disobeyed, then that is a big distinction.

It isn't the same as the grandfather last week who shot his wife , daughter and granddaughter.  It is very different.

"In this case, honour killing touches on our (quite recently discovered) sense of the equality of women."

This is about more than our sense of egalitarianism.  Even people who have old-fashioned attitudes towards women are horrified by this because it hits a very raw nerve, namely, the idea of the home and the family being a place of sanctuary and protection.  The denial of this is what makes child abuse cases that involve members of one's family so horrific, and the same applies to the murders.  These girls weren't killed by a stalker, or a demanding husband in a fit of rage.  This was a calculated, well-planned out act that was endorsed by the entire family.  That's what offends the conscience so much. 

"Really, the line between categorizing the ugliness of crimes and drifting into xenophobia can be a very thin one."

So let's not categorize is because God forbid there be a case where a Muslim family isn't the victim of the big, bad imperialist West.  God forbid we let something like that contradict our dearly-held-onto narrative of victim foreigners vs. the Empire. 

"But I have never seen a similar reaction of horror to it."

You're right, there's nothing rational or quantifiable about how we empathize.  For example, millions of South Africans were willing to sit back and let their government stall efforts to fight AIDS, until a photogenic 8-year old boy who toured the country and spoke about what the disease does died did thousands of people take to the streets in furious protest.  There were millions of other South Africans who suffered from the disease, but it was the death of that one boy which really shook the public.  Oftentimes, humans are more likely to empathize with a crime done to one single individual who they can relate to than ones committed on undefined masses of people.  12 million people being killed during the Holocaust may seem like an abstract number at times, but the story of Anne Frank or Elie Wiesel isn't. 

Holden, that is not what I said. I did not say types of murder are relative. You said that. What I was trying to point out was the error of such thinking. I said WE, all of us, will identify some types of murder as worse than others. I arises from our culture. It is as wrong for our culture to preceive some types of murder as worse, just as wrong as it for t heir to see some types as acceptable. (And the reality is, we, too, see some types as acceptable. The reality is that many North Americans accept the Maya slaughter because they really don't think it was wrong.)

Nor did I say we have no right  to take some action on in. As my grandmother would say, don't scream until you're hit.

graeme

Graeme you took the side of this debate that opposed identifying these murders for what the police suspect them to be, honour killings based on cultural belief.   You cited the risk of xenophobia and then used an arugument that other terrible things have happened in the world. However, that argument can be used to promote silence or inaction on a whole bunch of topics.  Why should I condemn female genital mutilation by certain cultures, when Amercians are shooting people in Iraq.  What right do I have to say that is barbaric to keep little girls out of school in some Islamic nation, when Native people live in substandard housing on some Canadian reserves.

Do you see my point, using this line of argument we would sit by and do nothing on almost any front where the people doing the offensive behaviour are different than us.

I don't think I said the information should not be released. I think what I said was that whether xenophobia is the intent or not, it will almost certainly be the result. I wasn't advocating anything - just pointing out what would happen.

Nor do I object to taking action. The problem is that to take action based on knee jerk xenophobia may well be ineffective or, even more likely, do serious damage. It may simply create hatreds, fears, pointless punishments, broken families....

If there has been murder in this case - and it seems t hat way - then we must treat it as murder. I don't suggest softening that at all. But if you want to treat a cultural attitude, it may not be possible to treat it simply by putting people away. We don't just want to catch the ones who do it. We want to change the situation of those women.

I don't have a slick answer. But I'd like to know more about the problem so we can work toward a solution rather than just satisfying our own desire for revenge. There now seems to be too much of a lynch mob reaction.

I am still reeling with shock at the news you are a white, protestant, southeast Ontarian similar to the Queen's variety.

graeme

Lol Graeme, you break me up.  It if makes it any better I actually went to University at Waterloo, but of course then I came back here (lol)

oh, god save us. western Ontario - the area bland, middle class Presbyterians in eastern Ontario consider bland and middle class. Last time I was in that area, there appeared to be only two recreations - listening to country and western, and watching beach volleyball.

I expect to be in Kingston in a month. My daughter, who lives there, will become a mother about then.

graeme

I was just out in the backyard listening to country and western and setting up the volleyball net when my wife (who at the time was making mayonnaise on white bread sandwiches to eat with our tea and milk) told me about this post.  Bland?  How can you say that?  The carnival is coming to the shopping mall next week and they've started having "show and shine" classic car nights down at the A&W every Thursday.  C'mon Graeme!  Get with it!

Lord! sounds exactly like Moncton.

graeme