i was shocked when i read that the 'experts' who testified at the ugandan governments hearings into this law at the outset were american christian leaders. 

i have also that there are some conservative christian organizations in the US who have stood up against this law, and if this is true than i applaud that.  but the damage that these so called experts did when they brought this law into being is staggering.

 What is interesting about the CBC interview, is that the priest Kapya Kaoma talks about why he is no longer a conservative. He believes that his sister died, because he believed and advised his Sister that divorce was wrong. As a result she stayed with her husband, who later killed her.

good grief...

leviticus also says that you can't wear mixed fibres in your clothing or get your hair cut, airclean, and yet we let you go to church.

we've had this discussion so many times before.  most of us do not see the bible as a condemnation of homosexuality.

however, this is not the thread for discussing that. 

even if a person believes that homosexuality is against the teachings of jesus, you can't possibly believe that means we should have them all executed.

Here's a relevant clip from the Rachel Maddow Show on MSNBC -- worth watching to see what influences are at play in Uganda.

Visit msnbc.com for breaking news, world news, and news about the economy

Alex, hey, this may explain all that bizarreness with the Epi/Anglican communion schism over the whole 'gay thang'.  I never understood why the newer African denominations would be that way...

sighsnootles, it might be time for you to break out your tract on homosexuality again :3

Motheroffive:  funniest line:  "Are you certified?"

My researches find that the Levitical passages are from the Hebrew Bible (which is of the Judiac faith), and it represents some 600 or so Mosaic Laws which the Jews followed then.  To break any of those laws was a BIg Time Sin against G_d (the Worst, in fact).  So, the bit on 'homosexuals' is in there.  So, only those of the Judiac faith followed that.  Now, there was a smaller, 'watered down' list for those Gentiles who lived in Jewish settlements.  But in those, the one on 'homosexuality' wasn't included.

So, are you of the Judiac faith?  Are you a Gentile living in a Jewish settlement?

Also, on the whole 'homosexuality is a sin' thang:

1.  Homosexuality didn't exist back then.  There was no word for it.  It is a more modern term (in fact, there is good evidence that sexual orientation as an identity was 'invented' in the 1800s).

2.  The 'sin' part is a translation of a word which meant abomination.  So the phrase really should read 'homosexuality is an abomination.'

Why would they write that?  Because Judiasm was a relatively new religion then (monotheism was a relatively new religon then) and thus, they had much 'competition' from other faiths and peoples.  In nearby Babylon, they had Sacred Prostitutes whose method of worship would include having sex with anyone.  So, this new religion, Judiasm, were saying that what they were doing was an abomination--they didn't want their Believers to be tempted etc etc etc.  And over time, that has been watered down to our modern phrase 'homosexuality is a sin.'

3.  When you read that phrase, 'homosexuality is a sin' in your Bible, now how is that different or the same from when I write it here in the WC?  Do the words mean the same thing, even if they aren't in the Bible?  Now, where do their meaning come from?  I mean, say no one were to read that phrase 'homosexuality is a sin.'  Does it have any meaning?  When you read it, isn't it at that point when it gets its meaning?  If so, doesn't that then mean that you are involved with the creation of that meaning (in that it needs you to read it, understand it, and communicate it)?  If so, doesn't that mean that you are then responsible for that belief and whatever you do with it?

Just some things to think aboot, airclean33.

Just a Self-writing poem,

Inannawhimsey

Letter to Innannawhimsey  you ask if I was a Jew ? The laws in the old testment were not just to the jews. They were for Israel. Juda was just one one part of 12 levi stayed with Juda The other 10 are missing .If you can tell me were they are. it would be easer to  answer that . But I do know througe my faith in Crist I am added to the tree of Israel. so I guess the answer is yes I am a israelit. How that would make a differce to what the Bible says I  Don't know.Me I'm just a sinner saved by grace. Old testment or new it is one bible. I didn't write it. I believe GOD did.  So Check-Lev 18-vers 22-23 Old Test              2- cor- 5 vers 3-10 Romans - 1 vers 26- 27 New test I can be wrong and more often than not. I am. GOD IS NEVER WRONG. Who then would you fallow man or God?

airclean, imho the bible is not a condemnation of homosexuality.

if you want to discuss this, there are MANY MANY older threads that do so... you aren't bringing anything new to the table here.

i encourage you to go back into the older threads and read through them.  i have debated this biblical stuff so many times before.

Ok :3  So G_d inspired the Hebrew Bible (which was inspired/written centuries before the Christian Bible), of which Leviticus is a part.  And when it was inspired by G_d, the phrase in question was aboot the Babylonian Sacred Prositutes and their religion were an abomination.  So, sometime between that time and now, that phrase became 'homosexuality is a sin,' as per the Christian Bible.

So, unless G_d changed His mind and 'rewrote' the Bible, then what you are talking aboot here, homosexuality being a sin...is a work of MAN.  Not G_d.

Just a Self-writing poem,

Inannawhimsey

People like airclean and a few other fundies here are so quick to say they're only following the Bible end up having little or no idea what the Bible even says. Airclean look around and you'll find threads hundreds of posts long where we debate the fallacy of homosexuality being a sin and what the Bible says in incredible detail and length.

Too bad they didn't teach you to spell when they taught you to read the bible so literally, airclean.

Someday there may be a metamorphosis

Jon71    I'm not sure what Fundies are. But a word made up of  FUN-DIES don't sound good to me . You may right. I don't have any Idea what the Bible says . I only been studying it longer than you'v Lived on this Eath. I still have lots to learn.

well, lots of people who have studied for longer than you have been on this earth feel that the bible isn't a condemnation of homosexuality, airclean...

I     I thought you said  you  didn't want to talk about that any more. why you keep bringing it up?   I never said God did't Love  Sinners just the sin. That's  ok you can keep doing what you do I just keep robbing Banks

but homosexuality is no more a sin than wearing mixed fibre clothing, eating shellfish, or getting your hair cut, airclean...

whereas robbing a bank is against canadian law.  and jesus did say 'render unto caesar that which is caesars...' 

personally, i'm sticking with the word of jesus on this one.    which means that you'll be in jail until you stop robbing banks!!

Your right about one thing  sigsnootles . Robbing banks in canada is against theLaw .ARE  You Now Saying Those who Live under Ugandian must Follow The Law ? We in Canada sum times forget what a GEAT COUNTRY WE LIVE IN. Those Who wish to come here from  Ugandian .I Say OK were do I Sign. I May not agree with you But I will die for you to have it. GOD BLESS  sighsootles

 The whole point of the report Globalizing the Culture Wars: U.S. Conservatives, African Churches, and Homophobia, is that American conservative have exported the cultural war debates to developing nations. Much like we export toxic waste, fast food, and other aspects of our culture.

To do so conservatives must lie and deceive people, in order to convince them that toxic wastes, fast food, capitalism and other things are good. Likewise they lie when they are exporting hate.  In all cases we victimise those living in other parts of the world with conservative lies.

You're unwilling to learn. If you had another 100 years to learn the Bible you would know anything more than you do today. While in the wilderness the devil tempted JESUS quoting scripture. Satan could quote the Bible literally in it's entirety. Even so I wouldn't go to Satan for Biblical knowledge and I won't go to you either airclean.

Alex    I Don't understand your point on saying Conservative Lies? Are they worst than Libriel Lies?  As far as the African churches go. They think we are Sdam and Gomorrah. Canada and usa.

I think I know what  FUN-DIES aer thank you JON71

well, considering it was conservative christian lies that led to uganda even putting this law into the books, i would say that alone makes them far worse than any liberal christian lie i have seen!!

LOL!!

they do, do they?? 

i guess it shows just how ridiculously unintelligent they are!!!

jesus fought to the death to protect those who society rejected... as a christian, we MUST follow in the footsteps of jesus christ himself and fight this law.

canada is a great country.   i've never disputed that with you, airclean. 

Sighsnootles  The coin in jesus hand had the face Caesar on it . The spirit in Jesus belond to God.

sigh...curious...does airclean remind you of anyone?

ps....i listened to a show on cbc....though, i thought, contrary to what this you-tube video says..that the bill wasn't going to pass in its original form.

what's the status, does anyone know?

not anyone in particular, no...

The government leader has said he opposes the death penalty, however it still needs to be voted on by their Parliament. So far it has not been voted on. 

Lets hope the churchs that  truly belive in Jesus can get it voted down.

I prefer that the churches stay out of it and let the legislative bodies decide, without interference.

If you were too read or listen to some of the information linked above you would know the churches are part of the problem. because US Christianity is seen as authorative or normative protestant Christianity, local church leaders believe the US conservatives who are "educating" locals that GLBT people want to destroy the family and rape children and men.  

 The same thing happens in Canada.  There are American groups financing "Conservative Christian" lobby groups. However almost none of these groups are supported by any local Conservative Christians, who have there own lobbyists.  

They might support the same issues, but Canadians Conservative Christians live in Canada, they see the lies these groups spread and do not wish to be affiliated with them (as well they tend to be look down on Canadian Christian conservatives who support things like Human rights, and  Universal health care, which they are against)

The only people that listen to these American groups are the federal Conservative Party, since the tend to hire former Conservative Party political operatives.  

The same happens in Africa, except due to the extreme poverty, the American dollar goes a lot further and the opposition to them are not well funded.

Mainstream Churches tie there donations to specific development projects which have to be accounted for. None of this money goes towards lobbying or political education of the sort carried out by the US Conservatives. 

You  will Notice I said. Truly belive in  Jesus.

Not sure if people saw this video clip

Part I

Part II

rachel maddow didn't make him look stupid, besh... this guy looks stupid all on his own.

i mean come on... he didn't even know that 'race' was included IN HIS OWN BOOK!?!?  he wrote the thing, and is challenging her on what is in it as she reads directly from the book.  thats not 'making him look stupid', besh... thats his own stupidity shining through.

as far as 'her qualifications on psychology... that allow her to 'disprove' his theory' - she states that she is using information from the american and canadian psychological associations, that those organizations state strongly that what he is saying is not an approved therapy, and that in fact it is damaging to people.   she is simply a journalist who is shining light on this man and what he is - a person attempting to portray himself as a professional psychologist, which he is not.

it is the APA who is disproving his theory, besh.  rachel maddow is simply the messenger here.

personally, i think that she did an amazing job of keeping the interview civilized. 

Sorrey I was talking to Alex I'm new with p-c and should have said who I was talking to. I will try to do better next time Beshpin

And many people who have studied for longer than you have been on this earth feel that the bible does condemn homosexuality, sighs, so what's your point?

If you want to know what the Bible says, airclean, just continue to do what you have already done. Open it and read it. I think it's wonderful that you have been doing so. There are people who have a left-wing liberal agenda who wish to wash away the truth of God's Word. They use a method called isogesis (adding preconceived ideas into the Bible), wherein the try to add stuff to what the Bible actually says. They do this instead of what is proper which is called exegesis (a critical examination of a text), wherein they would learn from the Bible what is actually already in there.  

if you want to know what the Bible says, airclean, just continue to do what you have already done. Open it and read        Thanks Match3frog THE WORD LIVES   FOREVER I PRAY THOSE ON THIS THREAD KNOW THAT. AIRCLEAN33

Actually we go by what the Bible ACTUALLY says while you go by what you WISH that it says.

that nobody can say that they have the bible figured out yet.

why anyone feels that they have 'the truth' cornered is beyond me.

Regardless, that's no reason for US evangelical-conservatives to be sticking their oar into another country's business and to influence it negatively for a number of people.

jon, i wasn't aware that the human genome project had made this discovery either...

can you give me a link?? 

A few months back we had a very long thread about gay rights and someone (of of our reverends I haven't seen in a while, John I think) put up a link going straight to where the Human Genome project explained that it was several genes in combination that determined sexual orientation. For ages educated people have long assumed (correctly it turns out) that sexual orientation was genetic. This proved it with the twist that it wasn't one single gene, it was several genes and how they fit together so to speak. Human sexuality is more complex than previously though. Anyway it's buried in the middle of a thread with a thousand posts or so and between the time it'll take to find it and knowing that the fools will just deny it no matter what I haven't seen a lot of reason to go look for it. Evidence doesn't matter to people like Beshpin, they have opinions, what use is the truth to them?

durnit.

i really want to see that link.  off to google i go, then!!

jon71,

I see two different ways of looking at the data that Beshpin has produced.

We can look at sexuality being an identity or sexuality as being an act.

If we look at sexuality being an identity (ie, I'm Gay, or I'm Bisexual) then we will look at whatever information we come across, we will go "Ah HA!  See, it is an identity."  If I look at sexuality as being an act (eg, I am a man who likes having sex with men), then whatever information I come across will be seen in that light.

For example, say I am one who believes in sexuality being an identity.  Ok.  Sarah, someone who calls herself a Lesbian, for most of her life, isn't having sexual relations or loving relations with other women.  But, since I believe in the Sexual Identity model, I think she is a Lesbian.  And if she has sex with a man, even once, then I say 'Oh, she is really Bisexual'.  And if someone tries to 'deprogram' her, there is some essential part of her that is being affected.

Ok.  Take the same story, but say I believe in the Sexual Act model.  What this brings to the fore, what I pay attention to, is her having lots of time where she isn't having sex.  And if someone tries to 'deprogram her', I see that as someone trying to get her not interested in having sex with women and not an impingement upon some special essence or identity of some sort.

So, what is happening with you, I think, is that you have narratives, stories that you hold to be self-evident and true.  And all Beshpin is trying to point out is the science.  And what the science finds out shouldn't impact upon your narratives.

Now, part of the Narrative around the Sexual Orientation as Identity model is that people have these essences inside them, who they are, that, say, when a Lesbian has sex with a man, she is still a Lesbian, because she is, in that essential sense, one.

Saying that sexual orientation is genetic is the same thing as saying that having a cornea is genetic or having fingers is genetic.  Both aren't considered an Identity, but because of the Narratives that have been built around these concepts in the USA and Canada, they are intertangled with any of the discussions that go on aboot this kind of thing.

Now, just to be clear, I am coming from the position that no one has the right to force someone to do or be who they don't want to be or do.  I think that what the Ugandan government is doing is abhorrent and I implore those who can and want to to try to deal with it.  But one must be very careful in discerning the difference between one's own narratives and the science.

Just a Self-writing poem,

InannaWhimsey

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/sci;261/5119/321

Not only do we know that a "gay gene" exists we know what and where it is, specifically it is Xq28 on the X chromosome.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/34370

This second link is mostly irrelevant but look at the fourth paragraph and how casually they talk about discoving the genetic basis of homosexuality IN THE PAST TENSE. The guy whom the article is about is James Watson who won a nobel prize along with Francis Crick for discovering D.N.A. Mr. Watson is arguably the top geneticist in the world today and he accepts the genetic nature of sexual orientation. A more authoritative voice DOES NOT EXIST.

Sadly I know this truth won't mean anything to those who lives are poisoned by prejudice but maybe someone else will benefit from it. As for everything you've underlined Beshpin, they're just shy of you conceding you're wrong. "Having a genetic variant doesn't necessarily mean that a particular triat will develop". You just blithely ignore the more common instances where they do develop. That doesn't support your base argument IN THE SLIGHTEST, in fact it comes much closer to what I've been saying. The others are just slivers taken radically out of context, useless for building any argument for or against anything, they're just fragments. You use them because you don't have anything better. The deck of cards you built your entire belief system on has collapsed and you don't know what to do. I find you to be very sad.

BESHPIN       You have a real  Mine in that head of yours. Remind  me Not to argue with you  Airclean  . p.s jon71 you also can make a good point. Anger is not your friend

That is why I insist that if it is choice, then it is a choice that is mine to make. If it is my genes, they are mine.

Because truth be told, I know that if some folks think they can fix it they will try. I lived that "reconditioning" nightmare and I know that if some genetic manipulation were possible someone would be trying it.

Beshpin,  do you personally believe whether choice or inate that homosexuality should be "corrected" or "reversed"? I ask because of your use of "we" and "us" language...

For those troubled by their sexuality or sexual behaviours or sexual urges... or destructiveness... there are already options and people like Ted Haggard, Tiger Woods and David Duchovny explore those options.

You are jumping a gun though on saying that it is learned behaviour. I never "learned" lesbianism. There were no gays my then homophobic parents hung out with. No gay themed tv shows. No gay characters I saw (SOAP was not a show I was allowed to watch I was a kid). The folks were not watch porn in front of us... What I "observed" and "learned" and was "conditioned" to was the same as my siblings- heterosexual pair bondings.

Something does not have to be genetic to be inate. Inate is just wiring, a certain stimulus triggering a given response. Instincts can be dependent on internal and external stimuli. Mating won't happen without hormones in the blood. So, even for an instinctive behavior, an external stimulus may be needed to initiate the response. Chemical communication via pheromones is the clincher

Exploring whether learned behaviour can be unlearned is fine if one knows it is a learned behaviour. Why not start with things we know that are learned like unlearning tying shoes or reading or something?

 

Alex

Ugandian Death Penalty Linked to US Conservative Attempt to Destroy Mainstream Churches

Posted on: 01/13/2010 15:20

 An African priest Kapya Kaoma has written a report which explains the link between certain US Conservatives with the new anti-gay law in Uganda.

Globalizing the Culture Wars: U.S. Conservatives, African Churches, and Homophobia

As I understand it, the US Conservatives interest in Africa is not just about killing GLBT people.  

They have been working to discredited the Anglican, Methodist, and Presbyterian Churches in North America and Europe------------------------------------------------------------------

I think the Question here was not how a gay becomes a gay. Or is born a gay. But  whether it is right to Kill them for there belivef?  The answer of couse is No.   Uganda  as a country does have a right to make there own laws.  That the Conserative Churches Have such power as to make the Ugandan Gov. make that Decision  I'm not so sure.There are many countrys That would kill you if they find you are gay. Thank God Canada is not one. But  should we tell other Countys what to do ? I think not... In sum countrys they will Kill you if your a  christian. Airclean33

the decision was made based on a the books written by a conservative christian who claims to have been gay and 'come out straight'. 

thats not even in question, airclean.

well, we differ there.

imho, if a country is killing people because they are gay, then we must do something to stop it.

would you have said the same thing when presented with what the nazis were doing to jews, homosexuals, and disabled people, airclean??