kappa, is there a reason you couldn't have both - chaplain visit and health care support? They are both needed. imo

Probably not, I didn't think of that option. Too black-and-white, I guess.

But yeah, you could see both if you were in the hospital for a week, especially if you felt that you had stressors that could be addressed by both of them.

Of course, it would make a difference if you had a history of mental illness...if that was the case, the doctors would probably refer you to see whatever mental health care professional they had working for them, even if you didn't want to talk to them for some reason.

For me, it would depend on my state of mind. Without being in the situation I could only guess. I do like the "both" option though...

Greetings!

As I see myself with physical, emotional, mental, and spiritual needs in all aspects of my life, I would want to see both.  I would like to see the chaplain to address spiritual issues where perhaps the mental health professional might not want to go.  Although the chaplain might not share my spiritual beliefs I believe a hospital chaplain would be trained to address spiritual beliefs irregardless of what they are.  And the mental health professional might only be able to address whatever their personal spiritual belief is, which might not even come close to mine.  I think the mental health professional would have a lot to offer as I struggled with the current stress in my life as well as any stress that might be added by whatever illness I had that placed me in the hospital.

Hope, peace, joy, love . . .

At one time (I don't know if it is the same now, religious folk ( ministers etc.) were not allowed in the mental health ward. Sometimes they made the problem worse.

I have a Social Work degree.  I would hope that any Social Worker (or mental health professional) worth his/her salt would address the holistic mental, emotional, physical and spiritual needs of the client. 

Shawna

A couple of time during my last pregnancy I was admitted to hospital for bed rest.  I do not ever recall a chaplain coming to visit me (including in a RC hospital) - although my minister did.  I really appreciated that because we had a relationship.  I don't know that I would wish to have a chaplain with whom I had no relationship, come and talk to me.  That being said, I personally know 3 chaplains and find them all wonderful people. 

However if it was either/or, I would go with a social worker or phychiatrist...cms

 My pastor is a very practical guy as well as spiritual.   I would want him. IF I were having a mental illness issue obviously I would want both.  But having said that, I strongly dislike quizzes that give no reasonable option, the choice is either black or white. There IS no black and white in life,  it is all relative. 

Sort of like the quiz question: 

Would you rather be marooned on a desert island with someone:

a: attractive

b: funny

c. very intelligent

and so on. What kind of question is that??

Kappa,

I agree either could be chosen, even together.

I deal with the medical side constantly, as an alternative medicine type and because my wife's family is chock full of health care professionals. Many times, through cutbacks, focus of training, time contraints.... the medical focus in on the immediate. The immediate is sadly not about support, stress, coping... etc. The tendency is to come in do the medicine and next....

When in medical crisis, many times the family is not where the fears, the doubts, the worries, the complaints, the anger, etc. can be revealed. Those people need someone to speak to them, to hear them, address them and listen to them.

Who that person might be, for me, would depend on what I am struggling with. What that was, was not clear to me other than stress... and that can run the gamut..... I need to know to pick who can address it best, for me.

Many times people suffer in silence because they do not know whom to speak to or are scared of speaking to some (like mental health care workers OR clergy) or not willing to use all the resources available to them.

If I was worried about my health, about my coping ability or depression or the like, it would be the mental health folks. If I believed I needed counselling it would be differnt than if I thought I needed medication.  If it was my acceptance of my health, my spirit, then it would be the chaplain. If it was support, after care, it would be a social worker.

It would depend.

In my case, I'd see the professional health person. At our church we have a pastoral minister who would visit me - and I would prefer to see her rather than a chaplain whom I didn't know.

cjms, you mentioned wondering how you would feel if a chaplain unknown to you were to come to vist. I feel the strongly the same but with respect to mental health workers. I don't trust them, as my experience (direct and indirect) is not very positive.

I am a hospital chaplain, so I will have some bias.

In our chaplaincy training we were taught to be very careful of understanding our role in a medical situation, and the limits of that role. Oft times there is a percieved conflict between the chaplaincy and the medical professionals. Our local director of Pastoral care (a UCC minister, incidentaly) has done a magnificent job of bring together medical and pastoral professionals so that we can help each other help the patient.

One of the biggest complaints we get from the medical profession, is that we often try to advise them. While this may seem a little odd to us, we must remember that we have different priorities than they dom and they don't advise us of what they know, as per patient doctor privilege.

As one GP put it...

"When  a patient is more agitated than usual, say because of a side effect of a new med, we hear about it from the nurses. That's how it should be. The problem is that we also hear about it from each individual family member, the TV lady, the housekeeping staff, and from the Chaplain. The only difference is that the Chaplain wants to talk about it for hours. I only have very limited time with each patient. Chances are I already know about the change, but I cannot even tell you I know without treading the line of confidentiality."

Doctors are mechanics. They fix things. You don't bother the mechanic while he's working. problem is that we Ministers are talkers. It's what we do. We sometimes forget that we're one of the few professions in the world that get paid to talk.

So what we were taught was simple. Don't bother the doctors. Be very careful how much you bother the nurses. If it's obvious to you in your 10 minute vist, you can bet the nurses have noticed in their 26 hours of observation, and they've told the doctor already, if it is significant. If there is a real concern, tell the nurse in short form, one sentance if possible. They don't care how you feel about it.

Now what has ended up happening in our hospital, is that when we stopped bothering the staff, the staff started trusting us. When I see a doctor in the hallway, sometimes now he might ask "so how does Mr. Smith seem today?", which is my unspoken invitation to briefly give an observation, if I have one "Mr Smith seems a little more agitated than he did yesterday". If that is particularly vital infomation to the doctor, I get a reply back along the lines of "interesting".... which is Doctor shorthand for "Oh my Gosh I was afraid of that. I'll have to get the MRI fired up immediately"

The real measure of trust shows up in our interactions with the Nurses. If the Nurses trust you, you caan rest easy. Doctors fix problems, Nurses run hospitals and carer for patients. If you want to know immediately if a patient calls for a chaplain... you best have the trust of the nurses.

So where am I going with all this rambling? I have quite forgotten...

Oh yes. I guess the either/or nature of this queestion struck me a somewhat symptomatic of the old way of looking at things, which was to a great degree the fault of we ministers, that we are all members of the same healing team. The way I know look at it is that I care for the spiritual health  of the person. When that person is in hospital, I go there, but that is not my workplace, my chapel. The doctors and nurses don't come to my sacred space and start giving me advice about my congregants. We are two different professions, who can work together amicably, and to the good of the patient, so long as we don't consider ourselves to be an alternative treatment.

witch, you can visit me. thanks.

I am a social worker. If I needed some interpretation of what was going on, I would want to talk with a social worker or nurse, or other health professional. I would welcome an opportunity to talk with a chaplain for more moral support.

If it were the hospital in my community, I would welcome a chance to talk with the psychiatrist because I value her judgement and consider her a friend and colleague. I would not want to spend too much time with the person who is in the "social work" role, because I do not respect her. I would welcome a chance to talk to one of the people in adult mental health and addictions. I am quite sure that my minister/friend would be around.

I agree pretty much with Shawna.  There are clergy who have a strong educational background and experience in counselling -- that's what I would choose.  Social workers could hook you up with practical resources and psychiatrists (in my experience) don't provide counselling as such, but they do prescribe appropriate meds or make changes in type, dosage etc.

Hi Kappa - I'd want both.  Nice to hear you're involved in some of the interprofessional ed stuff - it's the current buzz.  Last month I was a facilitator at a big interprofessional event at a nearby university, which focused on death & dying - very interesting.

Witch - loved your insightful comments re hospital life - right on!

I work as an OT on a Medical Psychiatry team at a large community hospital ... that means my team (nurses, OT & psychiatrists) see only patients who are medically/surgically admitted to hospital - we address the sorts of underlying issues you've mentioned in your post and a variety of other issues as well.  We are called in by the team primarily treating the patient, when they recognize other issues may be affecting the patient's recovery.  In our hospital, the social workers role was redesigned a while back, and now they (unfortunately) mainly serve a discharge planning role - leaving some gaps in the system.  In the course of my interactions with patients, I often ask them if they wish to speak to anyone about their spiritual needs, and arrange that if they say yes.

I also sit as a staff member on the hospital's Spiritual & Religious Care Council - comprised of members of various faith communities & a few hospital staff.  We have 2 chaplains - both CAPPE trained.  Patients who do have an affiliation with a religious group are usually visited by people from their own organization.  However many patients are "unaffiliated" and ask to see the chaplains.  The chaplains are also able to provide emergency support as needed - although only during usual business hours.  There is a clergy person from the community who carries an on-call pager for emergencies at other times.  We are an extremely diverse community & that presents many interesting learning opportunities and challenges.  

These days, in Ontario at least, hospital care is very focused on the quick but thorough investigation & 'fix' as Witch mentioned, to get people out of hospital ASAP.   These underlying social, emotional, & spiritual issues can really 'slow down' that process & often result in re-admissions when not addressed.   

 Ninja, agree on what you said about psychiatrists.  Everone thinks of the guy laying on the couch spilling his guts and the doctor writing it down. NOT. My husband has a mental illness and all Dr. C. does is make sure his meds are doing their jobs and refilling his perscrption. They basically take care of the meds end of it. Getting the patient stabilized at first and so on.  There are therapists to talk to.

Even though I am a devout atheist, for some reason a liberal minded chaplain would be preferable. It would make for a good discussion and no I wouldn't be making a "death bed" conversion!

If I had to choose I would probably choose the chaplain.  I would want reassurance - reassurance of my own worth now that I am ill and not a productive member of society - reassurance that regardless of what happens I will still be me - and reassurance that God loves me and that God knows I am fightened, suffering, worried about the future. 

If I could also have a social worker, I would definitely want one.  A social worker may be knowledgable (or know who would be knowledgeable) about such things as social assistance should I need it.  A social worker might be able to put my mind at ease about the care of my children should I have to make long term arrangements - and about rehab, or rening a wheelchair or walker when I go home, about discharge planning. 

There is definitely a place for both.

Time Magazine's  February article was "How Faith Can Heal"

In it, there was an article about how the chaplains have become part of the team in some areas.

Here's a link to one of the articles

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1879016,00.html

Witch, I'm with crazyheart - you can visit me, too. (If you don't mind a long trip!)

In terms of who I would ask to see first, it would be the mental health worker.  I know me and my health, and that's who I would need first.  Once I knew I wasn't completely losing it, then I would want to see the chaplain as well.

Yep.  Psychiatrists are mental health M.D.s.  It's their specialty, the same as doctors who specialize in cardiology, dermatology, etc. They are the ones who deal with the physical stuff - diagnosing conditions, what medications you should take, how much and when, making sure there's no adverse side effects, etc.  They are the "mechanics".  The psychologists, mental health workers, social workers, etc. are the therapists who work with the mental and emotional stuff - counselling, cognitve therapy, group therapy, etc.  They are the "talkers".  Both are important, but when you are dealing with ongoing health issues, you spend way more time with the talkers than with the mechanics.  This I know from experience.

Well my first thought was, "What's a chaplain?", so I looked it up. Being a non religious person myself, I would probly rather talk to the psychologist or psychiatrist, but depending on the individuals involved I may also like to talk to the chaplain, depending on what his or her angle was. If it was simply to be someone to talk to and comfort me, I would welcome that. But if it was religiously oriented, I would think he or she was better suited to comfort people of religion.

I agree with Wisewyldwoman. A social worker could be an asset. There is the fear, which all three can help relieve. There is the spiritual aspect that is best dealt with by the person's priest or minister. There is also a practical aspect - pensions, disability, family,  that are best dealt with by a social worker. Many of these latter problems go beyond the scope of a mental health professional.

I think that Spiritual input can help. I suffer from mental illness and my own Minister was a literal Godsend to me.

I note that Homewood which is a well-known short-term residential hospital for things  like depression/anxiety, substance abuse and eating disorders incorporates a spiritual component into their depression program. I would love to be part of an interdisciplinary (sp) program - that combines drug therapy, talk therapy, resolution and spirituality. Sadly they have a lengthy waiting list.

I have, quite sadly, lost my connection to the spirit. I have quit going to the church that I love. I have lost connection with the aforementioned Minister who likely saved my life. I believe that I have failed as a human being. Going to church is like trespassing in a building where the owner (God) doesn't want me because I suck so bad. I'm in the middle of a severe depression right now, but once I get a little better I would like to try to "get back into" church, my Spirituality and making amends with God/Jesus.

I would love suggestions on books, articles or activites that people have undertaken to reconnect with the Spirit for whatever the reason. (Note that I did not attend church as a child and had only been attending a UCC church for about four years when I left).

Hi polaris - I feel sad too, reading your post.  Please know that, in my view anyway, God does not see you as a failed human being.  God knows our fragility, and loves us unconditionally and always, no matter what.  God loves you & welcomes you ... indeed, while you may have forsaken God and church for a while, God has not left you, but is with you daily.   I most sincerely hope you will find your way back to your church, and that you will feel welcomed.

Polaris

I ditto Carolla's comments.  God loves you. You are connected to all via the Spirit, and your presence here is a gift to us.

I am sorry you feel that the church is a hard place to be, but I hope that this place will be a good place, until you can find your way back in through the doors. 

I am close to Homewood, and know from a friend who stayed there, how wonderful the programs are. ..I hope you are able to get into a program that is healthy for you.

Hi Polaris

I am sorry to read that you are struggling with depression right now and I hope that you are getting the medical help you need.

I note that you found your minister helpful in the past and I hope that you might feel able to reach out to him again.

Soemtimes with depression , people stop reaching out and the busy people around don't see that.

Reach out to that minister and refresh with him again.

God is still there for you.  He hasn't gone anywhere.

If i was in hospital with alot of issues i would like all the help I can get.

Trained and helpful social workers, chaplains, nurses docs.......

when my father in law was ill we called a priest that he had slight contact with.  That priest visited him twice weekly for the month he was in and did the funeral for us. my father in law was catholic by birth but a non attended and yet he got great comfort from this priest who really went out of his way for a non congregationa member. 

I'm back, at last (sorry, life intervened a bit there). Thanks all for offering your views.

It's nice that so many of you would want to see both...I think you are right, that probably both have a role to play. But I see there are others here who feel strongly that one would be more helpful than another. I was just very interested to hear from a chaplin at the workshop I went to. I've heard of other mental health programs and physical health programs that deal with chronic conditions that have chaplins. I think it is a nice addtion: it emphasizes that health affects every aspect of your life, and it's not as if you can leave everything (especially your spirtuality) at the door if you need services in hospital.

Polaris, I am so sorry to hear that you are in a depression right now. Are you okay? Do you have access to services? The mental health care system is NOT user-friendly, so I hope you can access help from supports that you've had last time. Is your minister still there for you?

I would echo what others have said, it may be difficult for you to feel God reaching out to you right now, but God is there and will not abandon you. Keep hope alive as much as you can. I wish there was more we could do to help.

Thanks everyone for your kind words.

My apologies for somewhat hijacking the thread - I really intended to show that there is a role for both based on my mental health experience.

I really hurt the feelings of the Minister I was dealing with, I think. And our church was going through a really difficult time. I have recently sent her an email just to say hi and she has said I am welcome back. She is very, very awesome. I so badly want this Spirit connection, I just don't know how to go about it or to overcome my fear of Jesus telling me that essentially I was of no value.  The last time I was sick I carried a tiny wooden cross with me and it brought me so much calmness and I thought of the footsteps verse frequently. Unfortunately I cannot do those things this time around because I just can't believe that God would help me after telling me that I was worthless.

For those who asked - I am getting excellent care. I have the greatest psychologist and  medical doctor. The consultant on my file also seems to very clever and understanding of the situation.  The health system here in Ontario is pretty poor - my doctors think I should be admitted somewhere and there are no beds in the four hospitals in our area. I will also say that I had to call the crisis line last night and they were exceptional.

take care of yourselves, and thanks for your responses

Good to hear from you polaris ... thanks for letting us know that although you are struggling, you have a team of supporters there to hold you up when days seem so dismal.  

You showed a lot of courage in sending an e-mail to your minister ... and I hope you can show that courage again in believing her welcoming response and returning to church when the time feels right for you.   Don't worry ... God has lots of patience & is there for you, even if you find that hard to believe right now.

I would want to see my minister and a select few of my brothers and sisters in Christ.  I find a lot of modern mental health care often creates problems where none exist.  I am not in denial.  I SWEAR, lol.

Having worked in mental health for some time, I understand where you are coming from. Hopefully a GOOD social worker will not do that.

Anyway, denial is also a wonderful thing.  I swear by it many days!

hello, i am new to this site...just joined. So, hi...
This is an interesing topic! I have had a `chaplain`visit
when my daughter was in hosp. who we did not know. It was uncomfortable even though he was a very nice man. I think it really does depend . My minister ,I believe, could make almost anyone feel comfortable speaking with him and like he truly cares...because he does! For a person to take time out of their schedule (do chaplains get paid for these visits, because you KNOW phsyc help does)to go and pray for someone or meeet their emotional needs is so unselfish and pwoplw need kindness more than anything when they are in hosp. I know this all too well!

p.s. could someone direct me as to how to change fonts etcÉ I am yelling without intention!!!

welcome saraia. Just above go to format and there are different font sizes.

Welcome to you and I hope we will see you often on the threads. It is a great place to be.

I think chaplains typically have a salary but I can't imagine they would be paid per visit or anything. Many ministers will do visitations at hospitals and such and there's no pay beyond it's just something pastors do. Personally I could welcome either a chaplain or a secular therapis, depending on many things. Both potentially have something of value to give.

Yes; specially trained chaplains are hired and paid by hospitals...cms

As I have been in the situation you describe I would have to say that for me, both professions have their time and place.  The bigger issue to me is the quality of the person fulfilling each role. 

If I had to choose only one however, and assuming that the professional in question is of a high caliber, I would definately choose the chaplain.

Any decent chaplain will not only be able to address the potential spiritual concerns of the person they are tending to, but will also have in place a strong skill set of a psychologist/councilor/social worker. 

Another benefit to me would be the ability of a decent chaplain to put people at ease and to address items that may not be strictly speaking, "medical" in nature.

A chaplain is also less constrained in both the time they can spend with someone and the areas in which they can minister to a persons needs.  They do not have the "professional" do not cross lines or the office politics issues that many health care workers have to endure while at the workplace.

A good chaplain doesn't get bent over a persons individual beliefs or religion.  They are flexible enough to work with, or around, things as they come up. 

In essence, a good chaplain will have the skills and compassion necessary to accomodate the majority of people encountered and will have the humility and intelligence to know if they're in over their head and at that time employ the needed professional to step in.

 For me personally, a good chaplain covers all the needed bases and has the ability and resources to cover even more should that become necessary. 

My vote definately goes to the chaplain.  :-)

Neither. I'd want a Christian Counselor. I'd want their help in biblically dealing with the stress. I believe strongly in God's word to treat such things. Psychology can, at best, offer only temporary help and change. I'd want something long-lasting. I'd want to be encouraged in the Lord, and reminded to turn to him for the love and support that I'd need at such a time.

 Hi Kappa,

I'm together enough to not really need a chaplain or a mental health professional.

If they could stick me in the ward with the prettiest and friendliest nurses I would be just fine.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Ah... but what if they were the ugliest and meanest?

To answer the first question: I, myself. would prefer a chaplain to a psych any day of the week...having experienced both in hospital, the response the chaplain had in your group is not surprising to me at all-our world has changed so much...people are not concerned with nor do they seem to care about the emotional or human side of life as they once did...when I was younger, I had the odd experience of being ministered to by a chaplain and a psychiatrist, both in the same day when a crisis occurred in my life that had me end up in the emerg unit with one of my, at that time, baby sons...the psych was as cold as ice, and her best comment was that if my son died, it would be unfortunate...the chaplain, who was anglican or catholic (cannot quite remember which), took my hand, looked me straight in the eyes, and said that he knew the doctors were doing everything in their power to save my son, but we could put them, my son, and ourselves in God's hands, for he knew more than they did...and then he prayed with me, asking God to help me have peace and clarity of thinking in the decisions that would be mine in that next hour...and peace and clarity came to me as he prayed, while fear and confusion were washed away...that is something no psychiatrist could do...my son lived, by the way,,, why do you think that was?  I have noticed that the response your chaplain had in many avenues of life in the present...as a result, when people are in need, when their life is overwhelming, they do not ask for help, nor do they any longer know what to do or how to respond when help is offered...essentially, we must find a way to reverse this cold and inneffectual attitude..and it is up to us, wherever we are, to do just that because we, wherever we are in this world is all there is.

Hi Jae,

Then I'd get better faster.

Grace and peace to you.

John

*chuckle* Good one, brother. Always look for the positive in life.