*giggle*

They should try it out and see what happens :3

The type of restaurants that do this are probably the type that do not have a kid's menu.  I don't have an issue with that.

The movie theatre surprises me.  I would be fine if they banned kids based on the ratings (I remember seeing very young kids in a movie that was rated R and I was disgusted, they appeared to be old enough that the movie could have been quite disturbing to them).  If a movie is rated G kids of any age should be allowed in IMHO.

I saw the clip on Global, too.

I agree that there are some places that children shouldn't go for their own safety (like construction sites and autobody shops), and there are places that feature "mature subject matter," such as horror movies and plays, bars, or even an operating room featuring a quadruple bypass. These aren't appropriate things for children to watch.

But the news talked about banning young children from ordinary things: restaurants and flights. (According to the clip, no one travelling business class wants to hear a crying baby.)

I do disagree with banning young children from ordinary public places. Children are a part of society. Honestly, some people act like they've never heard a baby cry before. When you hear a baby crying in a restaurant (or on a flight), and you look over, you generally don't see a parent who's delighted that their baby's crying. You see a parent who's sleep deprived and exhausted, and terribly embarrassed that they can't stop the baby from crying.

And toddlers can have temper tantrums. That's not unusual. That's not bad parenting. That's life. Good parents take their children out of the public place when they misbehave. Then they bring them back in when they've calmed down. That's good parenting. (And hopefully the parent doesn't have to deal with any rudeness from the others. I was not pleased when my son was disruptive during a church service, and I took him just outside the sanctuary for a time out, and a member of the congregation came out to find us and he yelled at my son and told him he was very badly behaved and that he was not a child of God.)

When children spend time in public places, they learn how to behave in public places. They learn social skills. If a few adults really can't tolerate a baby crying, then they should be the ones staying out of public places, not the children. Everyone has the right to make their own home a child-free place if that's what they want. But public places are for everyone, including children under six.

I agree with what GO_3838 said - public places are for everyone, regardless of age. While there are certain places where children should not be (others have mentioned adult movies, adult stores, etc.) but really it should be left up to parental discretion. As for flying - there are times when children need to travel. I was a baby when my Grandfather died and had children not been allowed on airplanes, my Mother would not have been able to go to his funeral (he lived in England).

How long until people start talking about banning children under 6 from churches?

Give it time,

(on the one hand, let people make their religious mistakes when they're children...on the other hand, maybe not letting children near religion until they're older will make for a stronger and more humane religion?)

the humour-challenged over in the LMP (London Metro Police) are already asking their people to snitch on "Anarchists" :3

I don't think the story (without having seen it) is suggesting we ban children from flying, just certain flights or certain classes.  I don't have too much of an issue with that, as long as the adult only flights/sections are very limited.  I don't think it would be a good idea to make it too restrictive for someone with a young child to be able to get a fly somewhere.  If there are 6 flights a day between 2 cities I wouldn't have a problem with one of them having an age restriction, but I don't have children.

Personally, I don't have an issue with kids on a flight.  If I had a migraine with a screaming baby right behind me though, I might appreciate having an adult only area!

I would much rather ban pets on flights!  That's another issue though.

How about instead of creating an adults-only area (or flight), how about creating one that is truly child-friendly? They do that on the larger BC ferry trips - there is an area on the boat where there are climbing toys and TVs with child-friendly programs playing. I'm not suggesting climbing toys for airplanes, but perhaps an area with toys and books that the kids could look at and play with alongside other kids. Adults travelling without kids could choose not to sit in this area - and perhaps a bit of a sound barrier could be provided.

I read the CNN article about the little restaurant that stared all this.  I am all for it especially in the 'we don't have a kid's menu' type places. Too many parents think it's just fine to let their little darlings scream, throw fits, throw food, run laps of the restaurant and so forth.

Just to give a personal example I once had a kid who had been bouncing around the restaurant like a ping pong ball reach over the back of my booth and grab up two hand-fulls of my hair with spaghetti gooped hands.  Obviously this kid had never been taught to not do things like that.  And to top it off when I asked the mom to stop the kid the Mom threw a fit of her own at me. 

I became very excited when I read the thread title, only to learn that the ban was only for certain venues.  I'm more interested in banning children under six entirely.

I agree Rowan.  Even if a 4 year old (or whatever age) is capable of behaving, they would be bored at that type of restaurant.  There are enough places that cater to kids, and there are plenty of 'nicer' restaurants with children's menus for having them practice their best behaviour.

To me that is a parenting issue more than anything else. I would think that the restaurant manager, once made aware of the issue, should have asked the family to leave - seeing as the parents were obviously either unable or unwilling to do anything about their child's behaviour.

Where does this stop though? I work with a child who is 10 years old, but has the mental capacity of a 1.5 - 2 year old - a capacity that will not likely increase much with age. Should she be banned from those restaurants too?

Somegal, do you think she would enjoy the type of restaurant that would ban her?  I think when it comes to fine dining it's best for everyone to leave the kids at home.  If she has the capacity of a 2 year old, she probably wouldn't enjoy it.  If she actual likes fine food, and doesn't have an issue being in a quiet environment with little stimulation then I don't think it would be appropriate for the restaurant to ban her and not other 10 year olds.

I've also heard of a reasonable compromise, lunch or early dinner are acceptable for reasonably behaved kids.  Later reservations are for adults only.  Having most 3 year olds out that late is asking for trouble anyway.

Somegal, I do like the child-friendly area idea.  I think it would be great if airlines that want an adult-only area would also have a kid-friendly area, it would help keep most people a little happier (and some will be grumps no matter what!).

I am all for having some restaurants ban children and having an adult only movie.  Say the movie theatre has three screens one could be adult only and the others could be whatever age.  I have been at restaurants where you can't have coffee and visit because a young child is being a total brat.  I do agree that it is a parenting problem.   It is also a personal opinion on how loud is too loud.  Some adults may want no child noise and others it may not bother at all.  There are adult only apartments why not flights, movies, restaurants etc?

As far as banning children from Church Church is a family thing.  Most single adults (who are not seniors) don't go to Church.   Movies, all restaurants, and all flights do not have to be family things.

She loves food, so taking her to restaurants where she can try new things is one of the ways some of her later-day and weekend care givers get her out in public. The only person's food that she'll steal is the caregivers, but she can be a little on the noisy side. If she gets too noisy, most of her caregivers (myself included - in similar situations) will either take her to the bathroom or outside for a couple of minutes until she calms down. Most of the time she has no idea how noisy she actually is, since she is deaf (she wears a hearing device, but usually does not respond to/understand verbal or sign language cues).

I am sure there are some people out there who would say that church is not necessarily a family thing and that they would rather worship with adults only.

I don't have an issue with a restaurant aiming for an adult only clientel.  In most cases i imagine that would be either one that is more a bar than a restaurant or a high end one.  When my kids were little and I booked a babysitter for a quiet night out I remember wishing that others had done the same.  It isn't just childless people who enjoy peace, it is people who booked babysitters.

Sometimes kids cry, sadly many parents don't seem to feel that they could step out and give the child some space.

Flying?  Well if they can fill a plane with only business people then I guess they can do it.  It won't happen on planes to Florida that is for sure.  You can't have play areas on planes.  Besides the fact that planes have limited space there is the safety issue of all passengers being seated and where seat belts.  Imagine a plane getting into trouble and the aisles being jammed with frantic parents running to the play room to get their kids.

Planes aren't good places for kids but there are times when there isn't much you can do about it.  Parents need to take care that kids are entertained and taught the rules of travel.  Sadly some don't.

In Toronto, there is a reverse of no kids at movies.  Some of the theaters now have "mom and baby" screenings.  Movies where all the seats are intended for families.  My niece tells me it is a bit chaotic sometimes but with everyone there in the same boat, babies are breast fed and most enjoy the movies

It's somewhat of a tangent, but do you know where I would really love to have a child friendly area?  Retirement homes!  People often complain about how so many elderly people get few visits from their families, but I think one of the reasons there are so few visits is that most retirement homes are not kid friendly at all.  A large family room with climbing equipment and toys would be really great because it would make it a lot more fun for kids to visit grandparents and great-grandparents.  I suspect that some of the residents would visit the room even when their own families weren't there just to see and hear the kids playing.  A playground outside might be a good idea, too, depending on if they want to let neighbourhood kids use it or not.

I find it appalling.   

Can I have a restaurant that bans boors?

How about a restaurant that bans loud laughers?  No?  

How about hackers -- you know the type, those that cough all dinner long and never leave.

oh, wait, can i have something that bans loud tables, those that are having fun or drinking too much

To me, this is a restaurant that does not know how to set expectations, nor do they have an idea on how to deal with people whose expectations are not meeting theres.

I once went to a restauarant with our wee one sound asleep in a car seat.  It was a small restaurant and we knew he would be asleep throughout the meal.   If he didn't, I would have left.     There was one table that made snarky comments about a baby being in the restaurant....twits.   He was quiet and slept.  They were a pain.

We have taught our children how to behave in a restaurant.  I took a child that I was caring for out of a restaurant  and told him we would sit in the car while the others finished their meals due to his poor behaviour.  Helearned that I  would not put up with that crap. We went back in.  He acted up again.  We had a very serious discussion of what the others thought of him and his behaviour and then sat outside for a long time.    He behaved after that.

** edit this story above is from Montana's...a rather noisy restaurant, not fine dining.  Clearly had it been a fine dining, quiet restaurant then the response would have been different  due to the impact on other diners.

When kids, particularly younger kids, behave badly in public it's pretty much always a parenting issue.  I don't blame the kids for the fact that the adults in their lives can be bothered to teach them what is appropriate and what is not and to enforce certain standards of behavior.  But just because I don't blame the kids (I do blame the parents and frequently wish it was socially acceptable to shake them until their teeth fell out so to speak) it doesn't mean I want my meal or movie to be interrupted by those children either. 

When I was little there were places that the kids just weren't taken. If my parents were going to a nice restaurant or and adult movie my brother and I were left with grandma or a babysitter and that was that.  And if we did go out and we misbehaved my parents were perfectly capable of paying for food that might not even have come to the table yet or leaving the store with out buying the groceries and literally dragging us out of the place, hauling us home and taking away every privilege we'd ever had (not to mention the not being able to sit comfortably for a week part).  We learned, quickly, what was and what was not allowed in public. 

our movie theatre has an adult only screening day on Wednesdays I don't have a problem with that it can be very relaxing. There are a lot of restaurants that cater to adults only they are called pubs and lounges. If you want a no kid's experience go to one of them.

On another note I have dragged my kids out of a restaurant and grocery store because of tantrums. I only had to do it twice before they realized that I meant what I said. this was a long time ago.

I have a pretty straightforward approach.  If I can't bring my kids, I don't go.

I respect that private businesses have a right to choose who they serve.  They can choose not to serve women, not to serve blacks, or gays, or whites, for that matter, so I'm sure they choose not to serve kids.

Wrote a blog post on it..

http://wondercafe.ca/blogs/femmemomma/making-child-friendly-spaces

Often we do not see things, or how we are being,  when our internal voice says "I hate that too".

I read that from people, the response that some do not like being disturbed by rowdy kids or crying kids.

At a table nearby I have heard Christmas being cancelled and birthdays and the dog being given away... as threats. No discipline, just idle threats. Yet, I remember being a child. I was certainly not an angel. I smile and think "well if I got to cry and not eat and be bad and get ice cream with sprinkles instead of meat and vegetables, I would do it too." My sister, same home, feels that if she had to sit there and behave, they should too. My brother says, "beat them, we behaved".

My heart breaks at the idea of not letting kids in. As a child, those mostly adult places were where I was safest. Dinners out and movies were among the places my mom could not physically or verbally tear into us. She could not in a diner reach for the curtain rod and beat you with the curtain flying on the rod. She could at home. Now, truth be told, we were angels out. We were afraid not to be. You were getting it when you got home for something and no sense adding to it.

It is easy to look at the table and think "darn brat", but we do not live in that home. My mom looked like a great mom dining out with well behaved kids.

We can look at the parents and think they suck, but this could be something they never dealt with before. My ex and I took our little boy to lunch. He had a meltdown. Something we never saw before, people staring at us like we deliberately brought a monster inside. We tried again later, another meltdown. More people looking at us like we were terrible human beings. This is when we learned that the brilliant (could read at 3) well behaved boy at home had Auspergers. The change in routine was too much, the sounds, lights, smells... all too much...

My head goes back to a Wondercafe post from Daisy/specialmom and someone in the library being upset/annoyed at her severely disabled son making guttural noises. Is it ok to ban the disabled?

Is it ok to ban someone with Tourette's?

Is it ok to ban you from a plane if your spouse/parent/sibling/child... just died or a spouse left you and you cannot quit sobbing?

One of the most "quiet" places is church during the long pauses of the prayers of the people. We have an adult with multiple disabilities who is not always silent. If someone said it disturbed them, I would understand and agree that it can be... it can be to me, leading the prayers.... I would tell them that they should pray later when it is quiet.... If they said, "I want you to tell them to stay home or go someplace else"... I would hope I would be able to convince them Jesus would not be sending them off... more likely, I would ask "why don't you stay home or go someplace else?"

I am with RevMatt, with no kids, but you ban kids, I believe I need to eat elsewhere on principle - fly with another carrier- go to a different theatre....

Somewhere I read about the H.A.L.T.  acronym.  Hungry, Angry, Lonely, Tired.  When a person is behaving badly (it doesn't even have to be a child) it can usually be accredited  one of those four things.  Chronic pain and generally not feeling good also apply.

So when my kids are cutting up, (or my husband, haha!) I run that checklist through my head.

But what do you do when they are having a tantrum because they WANT to leave?  Taking them out is giving in to a tantrum and teaching them that they can throw a fit to get what they want in a case like that. 

My response to situations like that has been to work on just calming her down, sometimes moving her out of the line of direct traffic in a store or whatever and even sitting on the floor with her as she yells.  Mind you, it's seldom happened.  I'm very fortunate to be able to take her out when she's in a good mood and leave her at home when she's grumpy about going out! 

H.A.L.T is a good acronym.

Sometimes though it is not those things, it is a parent teaching a child what works. Children are learning... that is what they do. They learn what gets their needs and demands met.... We often teach them the opposite of what we would want to teach or what we intend.

Sometimes an overworked and overtired parent does not want to fight, they do not want to hear crying and yelling... they want peace and peace means that once it starts they can only give in.... The kids learn that a tantrum gets them whatever they want... all they have to do is tire out someone already tired.

I was curious and checked out the restaurant that started this.  I'm a little surprised, it's fairly casual.  It is based on a golf course though, so if the golf course doesn't allow little kids (which may be a safety issue, I don't golf) that could be part of it.  I don't have a problem with their decision, but I am a little surprised that they would be willing to lose out on the business.  Some people might golf, then plan to meet up with whoever was taking care of the kids for lunch, they just lost out on that.

I agree with Rev. Matt  - I don't like places that ban kids.

They won't get my business.

Someone on this thread mentioned that if you want a quiet dinner out, then go at 8 p.m., not 5 p.m. You aren't likely to run into small children at a restaurant during the later hours.

And as for flights? Be thankful that the I-pod was invented. Anyone bothered by the noise of babies and children can just turn on their I-pod and close their eyes.

This thread makes me think, though, that perhaps Canadians are a little bit spoiled when it comes to noise and crowds. There are people in the Third World countries who live in small rooms with ten other people, and they travel everyday on overcrowded public transportation with sick babies crying and sick adults coughing and hacking away. And many do not get the opportunity to shower regularly, so the smell in these busses and trains must be unbelievable.

There are people in this world who have never had the luxury of being alone, of having some privacy and solitude.

I'm reminded of all those refugees in those tent cities in Haiti and the Horn of Africa. Do they ever get any peace and quiet of any kind? Probably not.

And some businesses in Toronto want to please their patrons by banning children? Perhaps these patrons should think about how good they've got it, instead of getting annoyed by childrens' noises.

Banning kids is just plain wrong imho. I would make an exception for places featuring adult entertainment. Other than that it's unfair ageism. I don't think places would go long if they went the other way and tried to ban seniors. Let the kids in. We need their fun, joy, and youth.

GO_3838,

I read your post and got to thinking. Personally, I do not think we crave privacy and quiet. I think most people are scared to death of silence.

The TV or radio is on for "background noise". We take our noise everywhere with us. We have outdoor speakers that look like rocks. We cannot walk or bike without music (imagine our ancestors with the Victrola on a jog). We have movies playing in the car. We take phone calls in public toilets. We talk on the phone in the grocery and we text and talk to people while sitting with other people. I recently saw a lady sitting with her laptop open typing away at a restaurant table with another person sitting across from her playing with her straw and looking like she would rather be sitting with Hannibal Lector. Then if anyone makes a peep we complain they are intruding on our "quiet" or our "peace"....

We like our own noise and do not want to hear anyone else's.

We crave quiet but are afraid of it and instead of carving out a few minutes to sit and be still, we rush about demanding everything and everyone give us peace and quiet. We want to sit over a quiet dinner or in a bubble bath and saying our own or someone else's kids deprive us of that is easier to admit the cell phone, the texts, the never shutting up, the still working, the inability to "quit"... is what plagues us.

I often hear people making their own noise and then complaining about the other person's music, laughter, friends, dogs....

Some would love a restaurant where they could laugh and have fun and nobody around them dared breathe.

Me? I carve out quiet and peace and silence... and I enjoy hearing others enjoy life or just live it and living it often means screaming and crying and a tantrum. Anyday, I would take a child having a tantrum than one too weak to cry.

MC, this may be the first post you have made that I completely, 100% agree with.  We've agreed in part before, but I completely agree with every word you have written.

Try it, those of you who think it is OK.  Reword the policy so that it excludes anyone over 60.  Still sound OK to you?

I didn't see the news clip, but to put it bluntly, banning kids is total bullshit. If you don't want to be bothered by kids, then kindly remove yourself from the planet and go piss yourself. Kids are AWESOME!!!

I agree - if we reword it "everyone over 60" banned or "everyone shorter than 5 foot" banned we would crap our pants. We would disagree and it might include us and that gets our dander up.

I have seen people not crap their pants at "Tourette's sufferers not welcome" ... or someone saying a cerebral palsy person was a nuisance or "the disabled should be kept at home"... it does not include them....

We tend not to crap when we agree and when we are exempt.

Some people, even exempt, would be carrying signs protesting it....

Put us in the group told to go elsewhere and watch the crap hit the fan.

I agree with what MC - RevMatt - SG have been talking about. It's a whole different story when the shoe is on the other foot.

I wish this didn't exist in our world, yet it does.

If WE do not stand up for the Children who can not stand up for themselves WHO will????

*Peace - Love - Respect* Unconditionally

Tao

We *do* ban people though, and often for good reason.  There are height restriction for rides, because the safety harnesses need to fit.  Minors are not allowed in a bar. Clubs are frequently 21+ (even when the legal age is 18).  Kids under 14 are not allowed to drive on public roads.  I wasn't allowed in the balls at Katz Kids when I was 7 (no one above 6).  Heck, gentlemen clubs still exist.

If a private restaurant wants to exclude kids, they do have that right.  Sometimes restaurants are closed to the public, because they are closed for private events and you have to be a member of a certain group to get in.

I agree that there are times to argue against banning a certain group, but to me the restaurant & kids issue isn't it.  I don't think the majority of restaurants are going to be banning kids anytime soon, they would lose too much business.  I'm confused as to the difference between a bar/pub & restaurant.  No one complains about no babies in the bar.  Kids used to be allowed in, then there was the whole smoking issue (no minors because smoking was allowed), when everything became non-smoking places didn't drop the no minors.

This reminds me of the movie L.A. Story and Patrick Stewart's character, Mr. Perdue who is the maitre d' at the restaurant L'Idiot.  To eat at the restaurant, they do a check on your bank first :3

Perhaps the OP isn't so silly -- perhaps what is being written aboot here can be another example of the Polytheistic living that is happening?  Just think of all the themed restaurants out there...there is one here where the shtick is that the staff insults you.  There is another one where you can break your glasses and plates (you have to pay for them, though).

I can see kids only restaurants.  Cougar-only restaurants.  Adult-only restaurants.  Angsty existentialist restaurants.  If there's a market for it...:3

When I said gentlemen clubs I meant the actually clubs, not a euphemism for strip club.  Most have been replaced by things like petroleum clubs, but there still are some that are male only.

I don't know where you got your bar information, but a friend wasn't allowed in for dinner with her kid at a pub, and they cited the law.  I also didn't hear anything about the laws changing when places went smoke free (they had to be designated as 18+ to have the smoking), but I could be wrong.

I don't agree with discrimination for the most part, but understand a few cases, such as the restaurant issue.

wow, revmatt -- i too agree completely with morningcalm on that one..

ps...hi tyson

Yes, children have rights but don't the rest of the paying public have rights too?

of course they do.....everyone has rights and responsibilities, there are codes of behaviour, and it isn't about age.......its about manners

RevMatt wrote:

Try it, those of you who think it is OK.  Reword the policy so that it excludes anyone over 60.  Still sound OK to you?

Its not like the kids are being banned for no reason.  They are interfering with the rights of the other paying customers to enjoy the dinner or the movie.  This is not a move to ostracize children.  This is a move to say that other adults have the right to enjoy their meal.  It is not about age it is about some parents' total refusal to administer any discipline.

Actually, serena.....it is quite different

The only time the children would be interfering is if their behaviour interfered.

Until the particular child's behaviour interferes, they should not be banned.  In addition, if their behavioiur is the same as an adults behaviour , and the adults is ignored, they should not be banned

Presuming that all children will be badly behaved is ageism.

Lastpointe - what I had meant about toys on the airplane was something like a toy library. The toys could be ones the kids could play with in their seats - either alone or with the person beside them (stuffed animals, electronic devices, books, etc.). I imagine an airline employee would sit in this area with the families. Maybe a family friendly movie would be played.

I am not a parent, but I am someone who spends a lot of time around kids - and I get a lot of joy from being around them. I would avoid most establishments were kids were banned. One exception to that rule is pubs. When I was 20, my family decided to go out for lunch with my cousin's family - my cousin was 17 at the time. Not thinking properly, we decided to walk into a local pub. A staff member took one look at my cousin and I and asked our ages. He was asked to leave immediately so, of course, all of us did. I have since been in many pubs and have never seen a child there. I also occasionally go to liquor stores - and am quite glad that kids are not allowed in there. I remember going shopping with my Mom as a kid and waiting on the bench outside while she popped in to the liquor store to pick up a bottle or case of something.

If a place like a restaurant, somewhere where it is not illegal for children to be, decided to ban children - I would take my business elsewhere (and I would write a letter to the manager and owner letting them know why). I would also ask my friends not to go there.

A golf club restaurant banning children is somewhat curious to me. Many golf clubs are trying to encourage kids to take up the sport - some even offering incentives like free introductory lessons. I would think many of those families would use such a restaurant before or after a lesson - even if it was just for fries and a drink. I know of one set of grandparents around here who regularly take their young grandchildren to the restaurant at the course.

Interesting, kids are allowed in liquor stores here.  I remember going to the liquor store with my dad as a kid before parties and holiday celebrations.  My parents aren't big drinkers, so it was a bit of a special trip.

 Iam not presuming ALL children are badly behaved.  I clearly said in my post that SOME not ALL parents have no clue how to discipline their children.   Since no one is will to tell these parents with the bad children to leave restaraunts are doing the next best thing.  Banning all children.

no, the next best thing would be to train their staff on how to deal with unacceptable behaviour, whether it be from a child, a teen, a senior, or ....whatever.

My baning, they are avoiding the issue, and failing to give their staff the tools they need.

I am reminded of the "first they came for"  poem(?).    

If a sign was up "disruptive children will be asked to leave/ removed" I would have no beef.

Kids running around tables while hot food and beverages are being served is dangerous. Kids throwing things is dangerous. Kids standing on chair is dangerous. If I started running around a table, throwing things at patrons or standing on the furniture... I would be asked to leave.

The problem, as I see it, is that staff/management feel they cannot tell folks that they along with their children have to leave. I can picture what would happen. It would be restaurant rage instead of road rage.

Right, and also teach skills.

Staff have seen many many parents work with children well in a restaurant.   Having quiet toys (crayons, paper) handy..... So, instead of focussing on the negative, focus on how to stop behaviour that is unacceptable.

I would never take a hard toy into a restaurant..why? it could be banged on something.but, a softtoy or quiet game was great...... the game x's and o's was learned and perfected at restaurant tables...