I think most gay rights organizations also stand in support of full legal rights for transgendered people. If you see the term L.B.G.T. it means Lesbian, Bisexual, Gay, Transgendered. Sometimes you'll see a "Q" included for queer. I don't use that one but I've heard some people use it as a catchall for anyone who doesn't neatly fall into any other category. For an example the creator of a webcomic I read uses that to describe herself. She was bi, leaning heavily towards lesbian throughout her adult life. Then she met and fell in love with a guy and they got married. I'd say technically she's still bi, but she prefers queer. Interestingly she has a friend that did the opposite, bi leaning heavily towards straight only to fall in love with a woman.

Another interesting thing, Iran is viciously anti-gay but has become the sex-change capital of the middle-east. In fact I think it's second only to Thailand globally. That's because they view two men together as wrong but if one of those men then becomes a women that "fixes" the problem (in their eyes). They'll murder gay people but support transgendered people pretty fully. It's kind of a unique view perhaps.

I also understood the "Q" could mean "questioning".  As in, someone was in the process of questioning their sexual orientation or identity.  Is this true?  Is there a period of questioning?

there is for most people, but not everyone

Jon posted that the middle east countries are more comfortable with transgender people than with gay people.  A person can legally change his gender, but not be a homosexual.  That triggered a question for me.  Forgive my ignorance if this is rude by I  am trying to understand sexual orientation that was never talked about when I was growing up. 

"If two men are attracted to each other, and one undergoes a sex change operation making him female, would they still be attracted?"    

Edit:

Sorry, I had already posted my question when I realized this was in the parenting thread. 

In fact, there are some rights groups in the US for TG folks, or so I've heard through the rather large TG contingent on my other board. I'll see if they've posted links. And, interestingly, there is a fair level of frustration among them because they feel that the traditional gay rights groups actually back off on TG rights if it seems to be an obstacle to issues like same-sex marriage. Apparently in some states, legislators and voters are comfortable with same sex marriage but not with transgendered folks, kind of the opposite of Iran. Again, this is just what I'm hearing via some TG folks on another board and I haven't done the research to find out the reality.

Mendalla

 I honestly have no idea why this was put in the parenting thread... I think I meant to put it in pop culture... anyone have any idea how to move it?

Actually I was talking about Iran specifically. Transgendered people are viciously persecuted in most of the middle east. In Saudi Arabia it is a death penalty offense.

Transgendered is very different from homosexuality. 

The transgendered individual does not see themselves with the gender they were born with - they identify themselves with the opposite.

There are lots of articles out there, here's one from Queen's University - Transgender Experiences

LB

Though it is not my nature to harden or to armor myself, I can still feel that happening.

On some days I am stone and on others, I am water ... 
     Carrie Davis, the Director of Operations for GenderPAC

Right now I think I'm going through a transspecial experience. I'm beginning to realize that I really ought to have been born a lizard. I identify with those of the lacertilian kind. Where o where is the operation for those like me?

Jae, I realize that it is very hard to understand another person's experiences.   It requires imagination to step out of one's own skin and walk a mile in another's shoes, but is it so difficult, when one lacks such a capability, to respect that the other's experience is valid.

Is it really necessary to trivialize that person's experiences to validate your own.

LB

We all live with the objective of being happy; our lives are all different and yet the same. 
     Anne Frank

Well said, I don't really understand the experience of those who are transgendered. That's a good point..

Trivialize? Trivialize?! What the...? Here you speak so well of respecting other peoples' life experiences, and then you accuse me of trivializing. That's pretty sad stuff there, LB. Here I am, just beginning to come out of the closet. Willing to take that first step forward to declare myself transpecial and then you mock me. Shame on you, LB, shame on you.

Maybe it BELONGS in the "Parenting" thread.

A transgender friend of mine says the relationships ARE confusing,  She pretty much willingly abstains from sex, which I guess is further evidence of the intensity of her feelings that no matter what her body looks like, she is a woman and her commitment to the wish that others would recognize her womanhood.  I gather she has little or no interest in sexual relations either with males or females.

My friend has wondered out loud about the remote possibility that if she had been allowed to indulge her femininity as a youngster  the way little girls were allowed to indulge their masculinity (as tomboys)  she might have outgrown her yearning to be and be recognized as a woman.

I'm  not so sure that would be enough, and I am not convinced that my friend thinks so either.  But I know that she honestly wonders about it.

Since lizards can't type, thankfully there should be no more nasty comments from that quarter.

I am glad that the transgendered topic showed up in the parenting thread...

We are persons ... we have parents .... we are someone's child .... often we are parents.

Often we have children and even grandchildren..... I have 7 grandchildren.

We are so often excluded or feared as if it will rub off as some disease.

We are accused of creating confusion in children and will somehow seriously damage the child.

Truth be told .... children have no problems coming to an understanding of us....

I am so tired of having to hide or having others feel they need to hide their children from me.    Worse than being a biblical leper .... thats how it feels....

How do I view myself? .... I like what the bible says "Man looks on the outward appearance, God looks on the heart"

I am a woman at the core .... a woman with a plumbing problem ... thats all....

I did not choose this ... it chose me ..... I am created this way.

For me I look at sexual orientation from my core ...my heart .... rather than from my plumbing.

Now for the old "I think I am some kind of other animal argument" ...how dreary that is.

Within the human nature there is male and female natures and hormones etc etc etc.

It has been shown that up until the 8th week that the growing child is essentially female.

Hormones etc then take over first in the brain and then in the rest of the body to finish the job one way or the other ...or in some cases .... incompletely and mixed....

Quite understandable, reasonable, and scientifically demonstratable.....

Therefore in every valid sense I am created as I am .... from the core out ...mixed...

Now ... there is no horse stuff or dog stuff or even lizard stuff within the human makeup.

And please don't split hairs on that .... I hope we are mature enough to understand the context and depth of that statement.

Therefore there is no underlying predisposition to be a horse, dog or even a lizard.

But there are valid reasons to have a multitude of gender identities possible for a person.

I am a woman ...plain and not so simple .... but I am still a woman....

Would you be shy to introduce me to your family? ...to your children? ...to your grandchildren?

... I am so glad this is discussed right here .... we want to be included in family too ....

An offer ... I offer to start a thread wherever you like and you can ask whatever you like about what it is like to BE a transgender person.    I just ask we keep it respectful and be mature....

Hugs

Rita

Rita thanks for sharing your experience and thoughts, and I applaud this thread as a whole, for bringing up that as advanced and forward-thinking as the gay-straight dichotomy might have been even recently, so much has changed in our society and those simple differentiations are no longer sufficient, as sexual identity, be it hormonally-driven and predating birth as in the case with Rita, or be it something someone 'chooses' (which I don't believe many do, but I also believe would be their right if they did), is so very complex.

I have a friend who is dating someone who has identified as and still physically is a man - however has come to a place in her life where she identifies as female. My friend identifies as straight. Does that mean she no longer is? Or does that mean her partner is identifying herself incorrectly? No. It just means those definitions do not go far enough and do not apply. Friend is not attracted to a 'man' or 'woman' generally, but to this specific person. When Chaz Bono this year decided to go through a gender change - does that mean his girlfriend is now automatically straight? No. It means she is in love with Chaz. Period.

Olivet ....HUGS! ...you got it! ...well said indeed ....

Oh that more and more it would be about personhood first....

Hugs

Rita

*applause for both Olivet and Rita*

and more applause ......

Nasty?

Don't worry Jae. We pretty much think of you as cold-blooded anyways

Hi Rita,

Your words are eloquent, as usual.

Certainly transgendered people have been disrespected in the past. I hope that we are now as a society rising above that treatment. I think it's wonderful how well you present yourself in these forums, and I can only presume, in real life as well.

Your quote you gave from the Bible is both beautiful and apt. "Man looks on the outward appearance, God looks on the heart"

The only concern I have with your latest post, is that while you encourage us all to treat transgendered people well, you then say this, "Now for the old "I think I am some kind of other animal argument" ...how dreary that is." Are you suggesting that we honor people like yourself while not valuing those who are different in another way? I would hope not, but that is how your comment sounds to me.

On the subject of hormones, let's not pretend that testosterone and estrogen are unique to humans. They are indeed the primary sex hormones conserved through most vertebrates.

Sounds interesting.

I have never understood the fuss over sex.  Does anyone really care what anyone else does or with whom?  Also, changing your gender isn't any nuttier than the wads of plastic surgery women get in Brazil.  It's the norm there.

Hello Jae ...and you are gentle and delightful....

I apologize for my sometimes clumsy and incomplete thoughts....

Often the full message and inflection I wish to communicate does not quite come across as intended.

Estrogen etc of course are not just for humans .... my point (I hope better put) is that within the human context there are "physical" factors and influences that determine how and what we become within what is possible for a human being.    The attributes of  becoming like some other animal are not part of that process, hence, demonstarted in that we cannot mate with other species and produce offspring.

Now I shall try and explain how that argument has been misused by many conservative christian organizations.   The argument is made that we transgendered suffer from a delusion like a person that feels they are a horse etc.     My point is that it is not the same at all.   My comment was directed squarely at that particular misuse and abuse only.

As far as others that have such feelings about having some animal attributes etc ....my heart goes out to them and I wish to support and help them live wholesome happy lives.

I do not need to understand in order to support them.    As long as the behaviour does not harm others I feel that plain old common sense can be applied quite nicely.

I hope that clears it up a bit .... again I fumble with my words ...please look for the heart in it.

If I get a few more responses about starting another thread I shall ....

Also ...feel free to wondermail me any questions if that is more comfortable for anyone.

Thank you for letting me share

Hugs

Rita

Hi Rita,

Thank you for your candor and willingness to share.  Recently a person I know publicly declared a change of identity.  It was surprising for many, distressing for some, confusing for many and emotional for all.  Fortunately there was a visible outpouring of respect and support as well.  I say fortunately because I believe it demonstrates that we are trying hard to be accepting of others and not judging of others. , just as Jesus commanded. 

I have never had a concern regarding my children interacting with GBL persons.  My team leader in a youth group was gay.  This is my first experience in knowing someone who is transgendered.  I may have in the past but if someone didn't tell me I likely wouldn't notice.  My gay friend says I am 'gay blind.'  lol  It is true.  Sexuality and personhood are not and never have been the same to me.  I tried to teach my children the same.  They were in the youth group.  A gifted highschool teacher was in a long term committed relationship and she was the most well known and popular teacher in the highschool. 

This is a good topic for parenting because we never know how children will grow and blossom into who they are meant to be.  Knowledge combats fear.  Thank you.

revchris53 ....... HUGS! ... and thank you so very much for the kind words and sharing with me.

I am absolutely delighted to hear you are "gay blind" ...how very delightful!

I am also glad to sense you seem to be "transgender blind" as well.

LORD ..... please remove such blindness that masks as sight from our eyes and let us see the true person within!

If I can be of any comfort, encouragement, or help with this person you spoke of or anyone else I would be honoured to help.

So nice to meet you!

Hugs

Rita

Hi Rita; if you did want to start a thread would you mind giving your perspective on the affiliation — I can't think of another word — between bisexual and transgendered people? This is something I've noticed in at least one bisexual group in Toronto and I wonder about any sense of being absorbed into the bi community, particularly through assumptions that trans people are bisexual.

I hope that's clear enough! Speaking from the LGBT point of view of a B who, like a T, doesn't always get the same attention as the Ls and Gs.

Smote ..... thank you for being so open and candid on even wider issues.    Life is so much more complex and diverse than the little boxes we would like to stuff it in isn't it?

Please Wondermail me and we will discuss this topic and perhaps how to express it properly and in a sensitive manner in a thread somewhere.

Hugs

Rita

Thank you for you for the hugs.  I will pass along your offer if and when it seems appropriate.  At this point in in a budding friendship (we have been friendly acquaintances for some years)  I am simply offering acceptance and support.  One day at a time Lord.  Give us strength for just one day at a time.

Ah, yes, okay, that's a bit different than the way I see things, Rita. Now, as well known on these forums I am a conservative Christian. However, I hope no one makes the mistake of thinking that all us conservative Christians are cut out by a cookie cutter. Personally, I don't believe you're suffering from a delusion like a person who thinks themselves a horse, dog, lizard, or electric toaster for that matter.

"Lately, strong research suggests that an incorrect amount of miss-timed secretion of male hormone during stages of fetal development may create a transgendered individual - whether male or female. Biologically, nature will produce a female unless male androgens are supplied at the right times and in the right amounts. There are physiological and mental gray areas between male and female "absolutes". " (source: http://www.transgender.org/hsv/hm_tg101.html )

I think that for the conservative Christians who do hold that you're delusional, well, it has less to do with them being Christian and more to do with them being politically conservative. It has less to do with the love of Christ, and a whole lot more to do with the love of power.

However, I wish to fully recant from my statements about being "transspecies" and apologize to you and all others here for them. They were in bad taste, disrespectful, and more than a little juvenile.  

Jae .... you are wonderful! .......apology was not needed as I knew your heart and in any event accepted of course!

Thank you for seeing through the words and I am impressed with your research.

I agree that those that abuse christianity for a staunch political agenda are unfortunately used to paint those that are conservative in theology and interpretation.     Its all about heart isn't it???       Even in Jesus day there were the religious leaders that split hairs and used the biblical law as a means of power and control .... and then there were those that looked further.     I shall go by looking at the fruits of the spirit I sense in a person.   In you Jae I sense wonderful things.    Thank you again for helping me express myself by pointing out where clarification of my thoughts is needed.

I would very much love to meet you in person someday.

Hugs

Rita

I have a question...really a lot of related questions...

How do you know that you're transgendered?  Is it something people know from early childhood or do they discover it later?  Do people who aren't transgendered go through periods of thinking they might be?  Do people who are transgendered go through periods of thinking they aren't?  Most importantly for me, how can someone on the outside looking in know for sure, in particular when dealing with children?  I have had students who wanted to be addressed as the other gender and some teachers are willing and others aren't...how do we know what is a bid for attention or a sign of a different issue and what is truly being transgendered?  Does it matter to how we treat them?  In particular with boys who are girls on the inside, they will face huge social stigmas in our current world...should an 8 year old boy (I don't know if that would be a transgendered boy or a transgendered girl, so I"m going with the outside appearance here) who wants to wear dresses and be called Sally go out in to the world like that?  It would be easier if there weren't any gender stereo-types...but there are.  What's the best way to handle these situations?

Thank you, Rita, you are too kind. All the best to you.

I would highly recommend starting with the following webpage if you're truly seeking information, beshpin.

Transexuality, transgenderism, gender dysphoria and gender identity

From it:

...most people are:

	Genetically males and are mentally and emotionally certain that they are males; or
	Genetically females and firmly aware that they are females.

However, in rare cases, a mismatch happens. The individual will experience gender dysphoria. They will often describe having a permanent feeling of being a woman trapped in a man's body, or vice versa. This is sometimes described as having a male brain in a female body, or vice-versa. They can become profoundly depressed. Their suicide rate is enormous when compared to the general population. It appears that therapy, counseling, and/or prayer have a zero success rate at resolving their internal conflict.

It is a story of two kinds of conflicts:

	An internal, personal, body/mind conflict between a transgendered person's appearance and what they emotionally and mentally sense their gender to be.
	Among medical researchers, social/religious conservatives, transsexuals, and others about: What determines a person's gender: their DNA, the appearance of their genitals, or their perception of their gender. The cause(s) of transsexuality. Whether transsexuality can be "cured." How transsexuals should be treated in society.

These questions are explored at length in the ensuing material. It's not as easy as your question makes it out to be, besh.

Where exactly has it been clearly demonstrated that gender is a social thing?

We all have mind, body and spirit and the old fashioned views of how they all fit together aren't always right. Things are extremely complex and varied.

Well said brother.

MistsOfSpring .... as best I can I will try and give you some insight into these questions.

Although I am a transgendered person ... I am no expert .... we live a reality that we spend a lifetime trying to understand.

How do you know that you're transgendered?  

This is something we struggle to accept.   We have this constant feeling that we are a fake.  There is a persistent feeling that things are not right.  It is adeep deep down inside thing that we cannot shake.     We just know .... it is that much of a core identity thing.

Is it something people know from early childhood or do they discover it later?  

Some know from early childhood and are extremely insistent of the gender thety know they are.    Other children gradually become aware but meet up with such social opposition from parents, teachers, and peers that they learn to hide it and try and "act" as expected.   Others of us realize a bit later and hide it all our lives until later in life 40 - 60 we can no longer hide from ourselves and we have to do something about it regardless of the cost socially, finacially or family.   Many of us try and change ourselves by marriage and families and becoming involved in very masculine jobs and activities (hypermasculinity).   This works for a while ...but then our true nature shows itself again and again.   A viscous cycle that leads to severe depression.

Do people who aren't transgendered go through periods of thinking they might be? Do people who are transgendered go through periods of thinking they aren't?  

Yes and yes.....   there are some that have other issues and adopting an alternate gender role is a coping and escape mechanism.   Please remember ..... gender is not either/or and neither is being transgendered.   There are various degrees and manifestations.    Some are mild and others like myself it is quite profound.  Indeed we go through times feeling we are not ... many times wishing we were not .... just be one or the other classic accepted genders.  This is why being under the care of a qualified experienced psychological therapist with experience in gender identity issues is VITAL.     The depression can become severe to the point of suicide and in the meantime many foolish dangerous lifestyle choices are often made. 
A therapist is extremely important in helping a person discover whether this is a core identity issue or is there something else that is triggering the behaviour.

Most importantly for me, how can someone on the outside looking in know for sure, in particular when dealing with children?  

A qualified therapist should be brought into the picture as soon as possible.
BEWARE of so called therapists that practice reparative therapy.  This is therapy designed to force a person (especially children) into a classic gender role.    This form of therapy has been thoroughly discredited and is EXTREMELY HARMFUL.

I have had students who wanted to be addressed as the other gender and some teachers are willing and others aren't...how do we know what is a bid for attention or a sign of a different issue and what is truly being transgendered?  

Can you now  see why that therapist is so needed?    Both for the child and the teachers.

Does it matter to how we treat them? 

YES!!!! .... a thousand times YES!!!     Teachers are an important social measure for a child.   What you say and do and how you react will affect their self image for a lifetime!     You hold a fragile egg in your hands ... an innocent fragile baby human being .... one that is looking to you for care, acceptance, guidance, and approval as they try to come to terms with what is going on inside.

 In particular with boys who are girls on the inside, they will face huge social stigmas in our current world...should an 8 year old boy (I don't know if that would be a transgendered boy or a transgendered girl, so I"m going with the outside appearance here) who wants to wear dresses and be called Sally go out in to the world like that?  It would be easier if there weren't any gender stereo-types...but there are.  What's the best way to handle these situations?

This is where we need teachers with some real courage!    Take a stand!   Teachers are looked up to by both children and parents.   Do your research and educate yourself on the issue.   You can show the others in the class and their parents that this is real, valid, and worthy of the same respect as the classic gender expressions they are used to.     YOU are the EDUCATOR for the children and their parents and the community in general.    If we all would just take a stand ...... my goodness ...how much easier it would be for all of us!!

Thank you for asking and I hope this has been some small help.

How I would love to visit such a school and share with the teachers, parents, and the children.    So much needless pain could be avoided and such wonderful understanding could blossom!

Hugs

Rita

Beshpin .... I shall try to shed some light on a few of your questions....

First ... a trap that even we transgender fall into.     We transgendered cry out against the falsehood of the classic binary gender model that society has embraced by default.   Then here we go trying to simply hop from one classic gender role to another classic gender role.    There is often so much internal pain that we rebel against the truth that we are gender complex and try and live gender simple. (Giving myself a tuneup here).    We end up propagating and enforcing the binary model by trying to entirely conform to a gender role.

Now for whether this is just what is more comfortable.    HARDLY!!!!    This I tell you ..... our gender identity is deep deep inside.    We have to decide which DISCOMFORT is the worst.  

1 - Hiding what we truely are inside and living a role that is comfortable for others.   This means a living hell inside.  Going against one's nature is hard beyond belief.   Hiding ... you have no idea how destructive that is to a person's core.

2 - Living what we really are inside and exposing ourselves to rejection, discrimination and the obvious distain of society in general.    Walking around and living knowing I am being regarded as a freak and something repulsive.   That is how it feels inside.    Knowing I am never ever really woman enough ... stuck in a body I wish I didnt have.    Many of us feel that way and we have to choose either 1. or  2.     Often we wobble back and forth between the two.    Trading one discomfort for the other from time to time.   Trying for some sort of balance as it were.   Indeed we have a choice ...would you like to have to make this choice every single day?

OK ....whether or not gender role is a society attribute.    The answer is partly....     Research is clearly showing that gender identity is complex and that a hugely significant part is biological.    Brain research is beginning to show similarities between certain structures in a classic woman's brain and a transgendered woman's brain.   Unfortunately at this stage the only way to measure this is by dissecting the brain.   Right now I need mine for a while longer.     There are some 70 identifed intersex conditions and there are some 50 chromsones that have been found important to gender.    Gender is indeed biologically complex.

Gender is also heavily influenced by society.   The roles and expectations vary across culture and time.   The amount and conditions of gender neutrality and gender blurring that is tolerable, once again, varies.

The combination of biological and sociological factors and variables makes the reality and experience of being transgendered a very complex and often confusing thing.   For us this is not an option and however the factors and variables happen to be we have to live it.     Bottom line is ...we did not choose this ...it chose us.    As the author Jennifer Bolyn said in her book, " we cannot not be transgendered".    Lots of truth well said in that.

I hope this helps a bit.

Hugs

Rita

Rita I think you explained that beautifully. As soon as you decide that your inner gender doesn't match your outer sex, you've created a justifiable but difficult road for yourself, and while I simplify it to say it comes down to what one is more comfortable with - and it does - it's a much more complex kind of comfort/discomfort than I think any of us here who haven't experienced it would understand. You can make the choice to make your outside match your inside, and the potential misunderstandings, judgements, etc. that come from that - or you could choose to enact your inner maleness/femaleness while retaining your opposite-sex exterior - also frought with social perils. There's so much difficulty there that I don't think we can judge anyone for choosing either path - both take courage! And then when you add again that the gender you feel does not necessarily equate to sexual preference (thus my friend's significant other who was born male, is now female, dating another female) ... we all need to step outside of that word you used, 'binary', because really it no longer is.

Rita, I really appreciate your willingness to share your story, experience, knowledge, information, and thoughts. You have so much to offer us here at wondercafe and to offer the world. Thank you for taking the time and care to share so openly giving many of us a greater sense of understanding and empathy for persons who are transgendered.

(((((Rita)))))

Beshpin,

I think that your question of what makes someone "feel" like a female while not accepting gender roles is relevant.  I think that heterosex male can get a better idea of dealing with this by looking at the feminist movement.  Many hetersex women are feminists and all believe they are women and know and feel like women but refuse to deal with gender roles as subscribed by various cultures.  Of course, the pioneers of the feminist movement are all well known to us, for what they represent, women in the workplace, women earning more than men, women as leaders, women in ministry etc.  Why don't these women feel like men?   Why do they still want to be moms and nurse their kids?

My sense  of it is that transgender is no more complex of an issue than feminism.   One just knows.  Then comes the hard part - dealing with it or just letting it slide.