does anyone have more information about this? 

No more information on this event in particular, but the National Post has been one to bash the United Church for quite some time.  

From reading the above info, it seems CJC wants to be the ONLY voice of Jews that UCC will listen to ... not really our tradition to have only a single source of authority on matters ...

They claim that the UCC provided funding for the founding meeting of this group. One of the  leaders claim that 9/11 was planned by Bush associates, and terrorist attacks in Israel are organised by the Israeli state. 

They also claim that this will lead to a schism between Jews and the UCC. I thought that the schism between Christians and Jews happened either 1000 years ago, or after the fall of the temple.

So I am not a person who believes in the National Post, so I was wondering if there was any other information about this before I see some of my zionist friends.

Well I can tell you according to my husband the CJC is a more conservative/Likud-style Jewish group within Canada. I'm not familiar enough with the IJV to defend or repudiate them and their stances, but I can say my skepticism in regards to the CJC's view is raised simply by the sympathetic tone the NAT'L POST takes in this piece, really taking a lot of time explaining their side, quoting their leader, while giving lip service to the UCC, who they have criticized in the past, as mentioned before.

I definitely think the CJC has a place at the table - but faith groups are allowed to discuss and interact with multiple other faith groups; the UCC interacts with other Christian denominations all the time, surely Jewish folks of different opinions can play nice in the sandbox too.

There has been ongoing concern over a number of individuals within the United Church expressing some very frank opinions in less than appropriate ways. There has, in the past, been discipline of clergy in Toronto Conference. Their statements have not made relationships with the CJC particulalrly easy.

I would not get caught up alone in the CJC reaction but try to also hear what United Church people have been saying in relationship and in support of IJV.

http://www.cjc.ca/2010/01/20/cjc-united-church-ties-remain-strained/

http://coat.ncf.ca/ARMX/cansec/CANSEC-rally.htm

http://www.trinitystpauls.ca/content/november-global-justice-focus

You are dealing with a very highly organized Israeli lobby, and one strong enough to profoundly influence the international positions taken by the US government. They will tolerate no criticism. And criticism you offer is labelled anti-semitic. This power is reflected in the Harper government, which apologized to Israel for the anti-semitism of the all those churches which supported Kairos.

There is not the slightest possibility of compromise. They will as quickly label Jews as anti semites for any deviation. This has happened to friends of mine. You can be their servant. But never their friend.

I think the United Church should express any views it has of issues with a moral dimension. It will never be able to do that with either CJC or B'Nai Brith. Both have set themselves to be intolerant of any dissent.

They routinely denounce the UN as anti semitic, and even the distinguished jurist who wrote the UN report on the Gaza war that was very impartial was denounced as a anti semitic propagandist. He's Jewish.

Within the Jewish community, acceptance by the group is very important, and conformity for that purpose is common, understandable for a group persecuted for centuries - and more persecuted in Canada than we care to remember not very long ago. As a result, the community is highly organized, and its institutions, like CJC, far more powerful than they would be in a typical christian community.

I don't know to what extent Jews in Canada support this. If they do, they are not like the community I knew for fifty years. But the pressures to conform are very, very great.

I can see no reason why they United Church should want to allied with CJC. I see no way it could speak with honesty and principal ib a range of public issues if it caves in to CJC.

We have to learn not to be afraid of being called anti-semitic. If we believe Israel has done something morally wrong, we have every right and responsibility to say so.

To cooperate with a bully like CJC would be gutless.

Here is the latest on this issue:

http://www.united-church.ca/communications/news/general/100201b

Same statement issued by the CJC

http://www.cjc.ca/2010/02/01/cjc-ucc-agree-to-path-for-future-dealings/

The Canadian Jewish Congress is an arm of the World Jewish Congress. It speaks for many Jewish people in Canada.. It also does not speak for all Jews in Canada.  There is no more unity in Judaic circles than there is in Christian ones. There is division, discension and dislike....

Graeme paints an image of what he knows and I can only paint one of what I know. Though CJC is far too right for me, I also know the good work they do. As much as CJC lobbies it also promotes tolerance and understanding between faiths. I am definitely more an IJV type than a CJC type, based on my politics, my personal beliefs and my progressive leanings, etc... For me, the battle against anti-Semitism is definitely undermined when any criticism of Israeli government policies is automatically branded as anti-Semitic.

It makes sense that a liberal church in one faith would be more in tune with the liberal groups of another faith. One must however tread carefully if they do not wish to alienate those not as liberal. Example: Catholicism and preistly celibacy or female ordination. If one takes part in undermining those, because one aligns with liberal organizations within Catholicism, one must understand that undermining has happened and if relations collapse a part has been/is/could be played by the ground not being firm due to undermining.

Though, it makes sense that a liberal church in one faith would be more in tune with the liberal groups of another faith, in relation to Christian groups -including the United Church of Canada, there is very valid concern on the part of Jews about who is seen as the Jewish voice and what is partnered with. The reason being things like Messianic Jews. One cannot take the Messianic Jewish voice and say that is the voice of Judaism. It is however very often done in Protestant circles.

The UCC giving money as a start up grant to IJV was wrong, period, in my opinion and now acknowledged by the UCC. For me, it is for no other reason than it undermined current and existing relations. Example: You cannot have GLBTQ realtions moving along and then donate and partner with Focus on the Family who is the loudest criticizer. It just does not work.

If there are differences or there is a need to be diverse, then that should be discussed or debated or the relationship should end or the other party be informed whether they wish to continue the relationship. One should not find out, one should be informed. Whatever is done should be done with transparency. The CJC simply should not have found out at the UCC national conference that there were receipts catching them in bed with another.

For me, I support the UCC in that there are many diverse voices and perspectives within Judaism. My personal voice is not aligned with the CJC, yet I respect that they do speak for many Jews in Canada.

I get very suspicious when one group demands that I not talk to, or repudiate, another.

This is like elementary school where one friend demands that I hate somebody else. I learned quickly to avoid this kind of "friend".

The JDL should be toild that we welcome dialogue with as many different groups as possible, and we will not be dictated to about whom we should or should not communicate with by any outside organization.

Thanks for posting the update DKS.

I don't see this as a valid analogy, StevieG. As you mentioned, we are a liberal church, and our congregations and members have a voice, as was evidenced at General Council. We do have the right to voice our concerns about what Israel does and the CJC, at least in everything I've read from them, interprets all criticism of Israel as anti-Jewish. Our values appear to be different from theirs at this point in time. It would seem, from what I've been told that, over time, where we may have had a similar value system in the past, ours has become more liberal (sorry, graeme) and theirs has become more conservative.

I resent this and hope our church leadership does not capitulate -- the CJC's friendship with our government, one which is unjust in so many ways it would take me all night to list them, is rather unnerving. A body claiming to represent Jewish people in Canada is using the claim of "anti-Semitism" to intimidate us into re-shaping our policy on Israel's acts of injustice and abuses of human rights. It is my hope that our leadership will find a way through this difficulty and that we emerge with our prophetic vocal cords still intact.

That memorandum is a croc. The CJC is essentially a lobbying group for zionism. As such it is highly intolerant. This has nothing to do with judaism, except in the sense we are dealing with a lobby group that pretends to represent Judiaism.

If we are not allowed to criticize the war on Palestine and the continued  persecution, impoverizing and killing of  Isreal feels like killing, then what on earth = or heaven - is our faith about.?

I would be ashamed to be associated with a church that took that posture.

Motheroffive, my point was that the UCC has said that the sed or start up money donation was wrong. They named it that way.

For me, it is not that I think the money was wrong or the support of what became IJV was wrong. I personally belong to Jews Against the Occupation. My Jewish family were also never Zionists, in fact my grandfather was a loud opponent before and after a camp.

For me, it is about methods.

For me, if you have grown apart, say so. If you have no relationship, say so. If you want to see other people, say so. If you want your options kept open, say so... do not get caught with receipts that will break down the relationship.

Again, I also do not like anything and everything anti-Zionist or anti-Israel labelled antiSemetic or anti-Jewish. There are Jews who are not Zionists and Jews who are not on Israel's side on everything and they are not antiSemitic or anti-Jew.

AntiSemitism did and does exist, though. Parks with signs "No Jews and no dogs" existed. Land could not be sold to Jews. There were quotas on Jewish students at universities. Even today Jewish houses of worship and cemeteries are routinely desecrated. Swastikas are tagged all over Jewish neighbourhoods.

AntiSemitism exists, but tossing the word about means it means nothing.CJC, of all folks, should know that since most Jews dislike everything being compared to Hitler or the Holocaust as it makes light of it.

A word tossed cannot really be pulled back... so that equally applies to "apartheid" language that was voted almost unanimously to be dropped at GC in August. CJC said the language was "inflammatory" and it seems GC agreed. There was also references  (dropped) about dual citizen MPs. Now, calling an MP's loyalties into question is like calling into question anyone of that group.  It smacks of WWII and thoughts around Japanese, Germans and Italians. Boycotts of academic institutions also were on the table. Victoria University and Emmanuel at Victoria said they were opposed. It goes against our values to do so, and so that too was dropped.

You however cannot put horses back into barns so easily once you turn them loose.

No matter what any of us feel about IJV or CJC The UCC after the meeting with CJC did "acknowledge its long-standing and historical relationship with Canadian Jewish Congress as the place for dialogue and consultation with the Jewish community of Canada" and said the IJV is "not a partner of The United Church of Canada."

Thank you Stevie.

This thread points to yet another good reason to read something other than the National Post, Canada's toy version of Fox News.

To be anti-Zionist is not to be anti-Semitic. To be pro-Palestinian is not to be pro-terrorist. The Middle East is probably the most tragically-placed  complicated, misunderstood and propagandised region the world. And the West has seldom given Arabic peoples breathing room or the benefit of any doubt since the crusades. Anti-Semitism has bee rampant in the West. Of course there are a few hair-triggers around, and junk media love playing with them. Sane Jews and sane Palestinians are not the problem or the issue. Thinking Canadians are not the problem. And I fear they are not the issue here.

Is there a similar consultation going on with  Mosllims?

I agree with much (most, almost all) of that Srevie says. What worries me is the combination of religioun with quite different an often contradicatory issuesl Jewish is not enirely the same as Judaism. Judaism in zionism. Neither Judaism nor Christianity should be taking sides against people they accuse of terrorism, and  which they both practice themselves.

Both Christianity and Judaism have a responsibiity to stand back and to deal with conflicts frof a 'christian or Judiaic positionl Neither of them has done much of that since the rise of nationalism.

Yes, there should be diiaogue with Jews. No, it should not be with 'CJC. Despite a oong and creditable history of servihg 8ts community, it was become part of a quiite unJudaic propganada machine, and agency for spreading intolerance and hatred.

graeme

cjc

graeme,

As the UCC did with Jews in interfaith relations (see resource "Bearing Faithful Witness"), so too has it done with Muslims (see resource "That We May Know Each Other"). As the UCC has worked with the Canadian Jewish Congress, so too has it worked with Canadian Islmanic Congress.

Judaism is not Zionism. That is said by one who does not understand Zionism or Judaism.

Rashi, Torah commentator, said that Adam was formed from dirt  taken from various parts of the earth because human dignity does not depend on where one was born or resides. Judaism teaches that human life is sacred and human rights are not to be denied. Judaism teaches that a Jew is anyone with a Jewish mother or anyone who converts follwing Law. That means one cannot be racist. Ruth traces David's lineage in a way that means one cannot discriminate between born Jew and convert or that place of birth matters.

The Jewish nation was done on Sinai. It was a covenant people took wherever they went.

When Christians say Jews are chosen they may believe some Christian stuff about that. To Jews, it does not mean the same and it never means to grant dominion over others. When Jews approach Torah to read, they say what it means to Jews. "Who has chosen us from all the peoples and gave us His Torah." That is it! Torah! No wars, no winning lands, no ruling over others, being better than others...nothing. Torah. It is why there are Noahide laws.

To say the promise of a homeland makes Judaism Zionist is again misunderstanding the faith. The promise of a return and a Messiah is still awaited by Jews. That desire to return has had any number of people claim they were the Promised One.

As far as this allegiance thing to Israel, a Jew owes allegiance and loyalty to the country of which he is a citizen. It is the Law.

Maybe look into Zionism and Agudath Israel and Neturei Karta ...

Maybe when you think of weapons and people in Israel, look back to the Jewish past like the story of  Rabbi Yochanan ben Sakkai.

Maybe look into the land aquisition fund. Maybe look into what the emblem on the flag, the symbol of a menorah means and what was said on a previous return....  "not with armed force and not with power, but in My spirit says the Lord of Hosts."

Not all Zionists are Jews and not all Jews are Zionist. Judaism not Zionist.

Yes, there has been in the past and there continues to be, I believe. I see that the latest GC nominating cycle is inviting applictions for a committee in dialogue with the Hindu community.

So, I did some asking via email and then some looking around.

The resolutions and their wording were strongly supported by the IJV, the same resolutions and language the UCC did not adopt. So, then we should maybe say why we brought these resolutions forward and then they were dropped. It did not fit UCC ethics or values. Why? Targeting universities is one such reason. There are apparently many.

What seems to have upset Jewish people (whether they support CJC or not) is the UCC not looking at people or causes they are giving money to because "on the surface" they seem to have common ground. "Oh, you say you want peace, so do we, here", is how it is taken. 

The CJC and the IJV both seem to claim to want a negotiated two-state solution.

So, what is the big deal? Well, among other things, the Canadian IJV co-founder, Diana Ralph, insists that 911 was not an act by al-Qaeda, but rather by American and Israeli conservatives with "a secret, strategic plan to position the U.S. as a permanent unilateral super-power poised to seize control of Eurasia, and thereby the entire world." (quote from The Hidden History of 9-11).

Now, whether you are liberal, conservative, are American, are Canadian, are Israeli... know someone who died in 911 attacks or know someone who served after 911 in Afghanistan.... are Jewish, are Christian, are Muslim... that is pretty heavy stuff. It does not seem to build much. It is not likely to help Arab-Israeli relations, or move to stabilize the region. It is not likely to make Muslims happy at the US either, if they were set-up. It is not likely to make Americans happy, whether they were Bush supporters or not.

So, do we get surprised when we seed fund someone like that to start an organization and people get upset, angry, hurt?

Oh, and she says the CIA is heavily implicated in the Oklahoma bombings.

Oh, and as her "authorities" is Lyndon LaRouche.

Oh, and she footnotes tons attributed to Eric Hufschmid.

Check out his website and see how warm and fuzzy  or crackpot it feels for yourself.     http://www.erichufschmid.net/ 
If you go to HoloHoax, you can see him supporting a Holocaust Revisionist that the gas chambers were to kill lice and were "life chambers".

Personally, though I initially approached this as not fully supportive of CJC in their outrage and I am an antiZionist. I am now sick to my stomach. The UCC should apologize to Jews, but they should apologize for any dealing with this person and to all UCCers. This is disgusting!

This is not a criticism of all IJV organizations. It is about the co-founder of the Canadian one.

Support an and to the occupation. Do not support any crackpot who also does.

Lord, Lundon Larouche is still kidking around?

I think we generally agree (and I am  familliar witht he background you mention\  (I spent most of my life in  Jewish circles. What bothers me is that Kenney made a speciial trip to Isael to apologize anti-semitiem in the Canadian churches. If there was, indeed, just anti-semitism, he should have stayed home and apologiized to Jews, not to the state oo Israel. He recgonized  Israel and zionism and Jew as all the  same thing.

So, as far as I cann tell, does Frank Diamant of CJC.

Amd meanwhile, Palestinians are suffering from an Israeli/Egyptian blockade. Most of the destruction of the Gaza war has not been repaired because the blockade keeps out builiding materials. Palestinians are dying. The two-state solution is is still on  a distant horizon. They really don'''t have time to wait for  Christian churchs over here to make niceNor is there any possibility the CJC will ever permit any criciticism of Israel.

 Anyone want to do a new thread on 9-11?  Or has that been hashed out here at WonderCafe?

Excellent points Graeme!  Especially when groups like Kairos had to find out after the face, from a speech in a different country, why their funding was cut.

Couple of things

1.  per CJC website -- cjc & united church resolve differences

http://www.cjc.ca/2010/02/02/cjc-and-united-church-resolve-differences/

2. recognize the source

  though it is important to know what others say of you, be aware of the possibility that  someone is working the media for their internal stuff. 

It is really important to hear what the united church is saying about this....

3.  squeeky wheel

want funds -- show you are undermined

want to justify your position -- ensure you are in the media.

It would be interesting to hear if the escalations / so-called conflict  line up with leadership changes or other stuff within CJC.  Farber's language is inflammatory, in my opinion. he has been ceo of cjc since 2005.

granton -- and it appears that there was a lot of confusion , errors and questionable sources that went into that feedback.  I listened to a Kairos staff person the other week.  I honestly feel very badly for our Kairos partners that our Canadian government could be so misled so easily.

So true. And the sense of persecution even in Canada and the US well into recent times is not without very solid reason. One year when I was head counsellor of a YMHA camp, I often wore my star of david T shirt. One day, I was invited to visit goy friends at a Laurentian lake where the wealthiest of Montreal - the Birks, the Molsons, etc. were the sort who owned the cottages. I joined an impromptu softball game, the wandered around talking to people. Only later, did I discover there had been an emergency meeting of the lake association to find out who had invited the Jew and to make sure it never happened again. That was about 1965.

At that time, apartments for rent often were advertised as for "select clientele only". That meant no blacks or Jews.

There was a wonderful attitude in the Jewish community I knew of attraction to enquiry, learning, discussion, very progressive and wide ranging thinking, generosity, caring. I miss it terribly.But I wonder how much of it survives. The holocaust happened in the midst of an anti-Jewish feeling in Canada and the US which was not so different as we like to think from that of the Naziis.

All of that put together makes support for Israel (without living there) a natural reflex. It makes a defence of Israel seem the same as a defence of Judaism. And the guilt feeling of gentiles makes the anti-semitic charge an easy and effective one for the more extreme zionists - and effective on the gentiles.

This, I believe, is the crux of most problems of this nature.

A little due diligence, and a Google search, and the situation could have been avoided.

UCC M&S dollars are shrinking.  I can't speak for other churches, but I do know that the congregation I am a member of will let the roof leak before it will cut the contribution to M&S. They send their contributions on faith that the money will be used wisely.  If that faith is shaken the roof may become the priority instead.

A little due diligence can go a long way.

LB

Common sense is the knack of seeing things as they are, and doing things as they ought to be done.     Harriet Beecher Stowe

LB, I'm going to guess that it isn't quite that simple.  Having been at GC, the amount of noise around the background material to a proposal was way out of proportion to what the background material's weight should have held given. I am sure this a multi-layered item, which has as much to do with the players as it does fact.

 I think it would be very difficult to find local groups or agencies in that part of the world who were on the ground that did not have to have some sort of association with groups that might be found objectionable to our Canadian sensibilities.  I am not speaking from any real authority, but I do know we are terribly insulated from what is actually happening in Israel, the settlements, and Gaza.  People have to go and search out that news if they want it.

I agree with what you are saying about the guilt factor Graeme.  May I add that I think that is a generational reflex as well?  Younger people today don't feel the guilt their parents or grandparents (no reflection on your age!) in connection with historical events.  We are now better than 60 years past the holocaust.  And younger people don't remember a time without Israel and don't always understand the hands off approach, or as some might put, the free ride Israel gets.  Of course, I am sure there are those who would disagree --- this is worth a watch:

damn. now my speakers are shot - and that looked like really interesting stuff. Luckily, I'm pretty sure I have some old speakers somewhere.

Hey guys.....

I'm not all that sharp politically but I've asked this question a few times without an answer being forthcoming. We all agree that the occupation is deplorable.

 Do you all agree that if Palestine has its own state there will be peace in Israel? 

So sorry I'm pessimistic and jaded but I fail to believe that will bring peace. Perhaps you all believe they would at least then be fighting each other from a somewhat more fair or even position?

StevieG's quote:Even today Jewish houses of worship and cemeteries are routinely desecrated. Swastikas are tagged all over Jewish neighbourhoods.

Yes....agreed!  In my community  just last year many grave stones were damaged and over turned in a cemetery close by. Synagogue windows were smashed and the walls spray painted. I believe they've found it neccessary now to employ security guards to watch the synagogues, schools , and other buildings 24/7. Not that long ago. maybe 5 years ago , a terrorist was on his way from Montreal with plans to blow up a few Jews in northern Toronto, right in my neighborhood. He changed his mind,he  got caught crossing the border at Buffalo with a car load of explosives.

Believe me I feel badly for Muslims, Palestianians, or anyone facing persecution in today's world. Still, this is scary stuff on  my behalf  living in a Jewish neighborhood. There was a time when my highrise was spray painted too. I'm living here since 1972  so consequently  I moved in when rent was low and its  now almost $200. a month  lower than the same comparable  2 bedroom apartments anywhere in Toronto and its large,huge. My daughter has bought a house with her companion so being on my own I can't afford to move and pay higher rent. Otherwise, I'd check out of here......

Oh, gosh, I've lived in a Jewish neighbourhood many years in Montreal, and the local paper had regular stories of anti-semitic attacks. I also grew up in a largely French district in Montreal, where I can well remember attacks on anglos and their institutions, like our church. But for all the reports, I lived quite safely in t hose districts.

Check the rates of killing, arbitrary arrest, etc., and you'll see it's much more dangerous to be a Muslim.

Mind you, you couldn't pay me to live in any part of Toronto.

 No, I am not sure that a Palestinian state would guarantee peace.  There has been a lot of blood split, a lot of broken promises, a lot of lies spread.  A lot of things for people to put behind them.  I think what brings peace is when people see that they have a fair shot at living a good life and being able to provide for their family --- that sort of stability is what brings lasting peace.  If that could happen inside a Palestinian state, and for all minorities living in Israel --- then maybe.

There is no war more bitter than one between two brothers.

Unless they find a common enemy, it is doubtful they will have peace between each other.