I don't tnink forgiveness is about feelings.It's about attitude and reasoning and behaviour. It doesn't stand all along. It goes all the way back to Genesis.

We are human. We are fallible. That is what forgiveness is about. It is about understanding the someone did something wrong not out of evil, but out of human faillibility. And if we want to deal with it, it is not productive to deal with as though one were dealing with a devil, something that would call for chanting or burning alive or some combination of both. It is understanding the fallibility that caused the behaviour, and dealing with it from that starting point.

Feelings do enter into it - feelings on the part of both the transgressor and the victim. But those come later.

graeme

I agree completely with the points you make, Northwind.  I continue to try to navigate all the complications and misunderstandings that arise in friendships and partnerships.  I wonder how much is possible through learning to be clear and assertive (my personal downfall) in the first place. 

Also for me, it's largely about choosing my battles knowing that the other person may never "get" it.  Deciding what to let go and what's important enough to take up room in my mind. 

Some may see that as passive aggresive, but I really do actually  forget much of what is done.  I have a coworker with whom I'm constantly running into forgiveness issues.  I don't have the option of removing either her or myself, so I choose not to take on things as part of the job. 

A dash of humility helps.  To try to see the other as human and subject to their own circumstances helps too IMO.  I know I'm in need of forgiveness myself all too often.

My most challenging experience taught me a couple of things, because I was agonizing so much at my own inability to stop thinking about how much I had been wronged and going over all the reasons I had to be upset.  I found an article about forgiveness that helped alot.  It took the approach that Northwind mentioned about process.

An important first step is to forego  meaning making a conscious decision not to "go there".  To choose not to think about it when it arises in your mind.  You just keep doing this as much as possible, and soon you feel some control and that's the beginning of forgiveness.

For me, it was about loosening the hold unforgiveness had on me.  In time, it all seemed less important.

This is just garden-variety forgiveness though and doesn't speak to those who have been seriously wronged and abused.

The interesting thing about "forgiveness" is that months and years go by and you say to yourself ,"I've forgiven and I've moved on" but out of the blue something is said or something is brought up and it is like the first day and I find that the process is not over.

TO me forgiveness is not about forgetting.  It is about doing something for yourself that stops the hurt you feel.

A person can do something wrong to you.  You don't forgive them and you live with that anger and hurt.  They don't feel it.  They have moved along their merry way.

So you are sitting there with anger and hurt affecting you.

TO forgive them is something you do for your self.  But it doesn't mean you forget it, you just change your feelings so you don't feel the pain

Forgiveness is a key part of A Course In Miracles.

In that context Forgiveness means that we completely let the situation pass. We do not carry the feeling that "you did something wrong to me but I won't openly punish you, this time."

We do not need to let the other individual know because Forgiveness is all about correcting our own view of the world..

Without Forgiveness we would continue to see the world as "them" and "me". By practicing Forgiveness the world can become more "One" - the communion bread can revert back to a loaf instead of being ripped into individual pieces.

ok, i am still at work (yuck), but there are some great posts above.

Northwind; you have to know I was nodding along with you as i read it.  First, i understand what you are referring to from our in-person dialogue, secondly, i get that new relationship stuff. 

JamesK:  If you do not let the person know, then does that mean you open any interface with them?   Is the relationship decision a separate item in total from the forgiveness, ie, " we wish to have a relationship of some form or another", or "we will just ignore each other for eternity "?

Lastpointe, so what about when the relationship is such that you normally would be in community...does that shift it?

NinjaFaery: i like that 'forego".  I try to practice that, and generally do not hold grudges.  I am quick to say 'let's air this out"  "I messed up"  "did you mean to do that" "i heard this..is that what you meant", or ...just ignore..let it go..recognizing half of an issue is likely my own receipt of it. 

Graeme:  so you are saying that I am forgiving their action, but not how those actions made me feel?  I am not following, i can't separate the two. 

CH: yes.  I fell down the front steps last week (silly), and then on the weekend, when was away, went to kneel at a table..and went oooh, that hurts... (i had forgotten about the fall, but my knee had not).  My sense is when we are hurt..deep hurt, or multiple hurts,ie a pattern, we have a response deep within that remembers. 

I think of both the example that I hold in my head, and the example Northwind cited.  These are people who normally you would relate to in some manner.  In my case it is a family situation, so the decision invite/attend reoccurs every significant event or date .  In addition, it  involves a serious division within the family so, multiple family units are involved, some directly, some via relationship.  Not easy to figure out...

It depends on whether the forgiveness is for myself or another. It seems harder to forgive myself, when I think I've erred. But it's important to do so at many levels - including that I often end up with a nasty virus if I feel bad about myself.

With regard to those who treat me poorly, I find that if I can understand the way they think, it's easier to forgive them. Also, we're all human, and as such, act badly at times. It's reasonable to only expect forgiveness if you're willing to extend it to others.

Since I've renewed my faith, I find I have another reason to forgive. I enjoy the experience of feeling connected to people, God, and nature. That only happens when I can avoid the pesky claims of my ego for justice. Put simply, forgive for both your sake and the other person/s. Discord means disconnection, forgiveness restores connection.

Feeling connected, folks, is what "it" (aka Kingdom of God) is all about.

Pinga:

Seems to me your workshop was about forgiveness on human terms.   Jesus told Peter or John (the years between me and Sunday school are a year or two ago) that if your brother sins against you you have to forgive 70 times seven so unlimited. 

Also the parable of the unmerciful servant seems applicable here.  Seems "I forgive you" is more than extending the grace period on the loan.

Wow lots of great posts here in terms of forgiveness as an attitude instead of feelngs; the Ultimate forgiveness in terms of God's forgiveness of us, self-forgiveness, etc. I agree with lots of the above and I think anyone struggling with forgiving and/or forgetting and moving past something hurtful could do to read this (a poster or two in some other threads come to mind). For my thoughts I think I'll go back to answering to your original set of propositions/questions, though:

One statement was that forgiveness does not equal  reconciliation.

I agree with this statement. I have had people over the years who have hurt me. At this point, I am quite proud of myself to say that I feel I've forgiven all of them. Does this mean I want any kind of ongoing relationship with them? It depends on their future behaviour I guess. Does it mean I forget the lessons from that pain, or who inflicted it and how? No. It simply means I have learned and discovered that holding on to anger and hurt is more damaging to myself and my own psyche than it ever will be to someone else who has probably long since moved on without a second thought. On a more 'human', ie imperfect, vindictive, level, this is helped in no small part by believing in God, and the concept of karma; when people are kind, God notices; likewise when they are not. It migh not be today, or tomorrow, or even a decade from now, but I truly believe we reap what we so. Does this mean I wish ill on those I forgive? No, because that's not forgiveness. Does it mean I'm willing to 'let go and let God' sort it out, for better or worse? Yes. To do otherwise is giving them too much power over my time, my thoughts, and my life, and myself too much credit for having power in theirs.

How do you define forgiveness?

I define it as letting go of anger, bitterness, dare I say hate. It does NOT mean being a doormat, or forgetting bad behaviour and letting yourself get sucked into damaging or abusive patterns again; but it does mean we are human, we screw up, and depending on what those screwups are everyone deserves a second chance. Maybe that second chance isn't with you, or me, but it means helping the transgressor find what they need to find in order to achieve peace and self-improvement; even if that means removing yourself from that situation (and forgiving yourself for doing so).

If you forgive someone, is it necessary to let the person you forgive know, or is forgiveness something that is totally inward.

Depends on whether or not that forgiveness leads to a continued relationship going forward. I can think of two examples in my own life; two years ago I had a very abusive employer; she would call me at all hours of the night, argue about every minute I put down and dollar I asked for on my time sheets, and second guess and undo any decisions I made in my role at work, as well as share those disagreements with other coworkers. I have 'forgiven' her to the extent that obviously with the ending of my job there our relationship ended, and going forward with anger and bitterness would only hurt me, while she would move on. Does that mean I would work for her again? No. And did I make any particular effort to reach out to tell her I'd made peace with our history? No. So perhaps that isn't 'forgiveness' by someone else's standards, because I still want nothing to do with her; however, I have chosen to let go of my feelings towards her enough that were I to pass her in a grocery store, say, I wouldn't feel the need to run the other direction, and could perhaps even offer a civil greeting if she were to do so.

On the other hand as I mentioned in another thread, I have in the past year or two been on the receiving end of some hurtful behaviours from my best friend, long story however our friendship has effectively been over for that time with no prospect at present of that being fixed. However, as I feel this has been brought about by him going through some hard times (he has cut many people out of his life in recent years) and could see, should he work those things out for himself, at least reconnecting on a civil/acquaintance-type level and perhaps friendship again in the future (I could also see not, but I would want to if he were willing, and had learned from this experience as well), I did go out of my way to let him know that if he ever wanted to talk about what had happened these last two years, and figure out what we need from each other going forward, that I would be receptive. I consider both of these forgiveness, but obviously under very different circumstances. If you want a relationship with someon going forward, you need to both express AND mean your forgiveness (ie, don't take back a cheating spouse only to spy on them and question them and punish them for it forever; that's no fun for anyone). If you simply want to move on, no; and perhaps talking at that point would only open old wounds and make forgiveness harder anyway.

What are you forgiving -- the action the other person took, or how you were impacted by that action?

I think for true forgiveness you need to forgive both because they are inseparable. The classic example here is, there are many people who would forgive a partner for cheating, but not if a child were to come about from that. Well ... it's a betrayal, either way, and to me, one could justify forgiveness OR a lack thereof in that case, but the child for me wouldn't impact that; the child is not what was hurtful, the action was. And if one says the child was the make or break factor and 'I'd have forgiven you otherwise', I think those people are kidding themselves at the end of the day. It might have been more confusing and less immediate, but it would have happened. Both things need to be forgiven to move on.

Does it mean that you feel differently about the person, or just the actions they took or just how the actions interplayed with you?

For me, unless a person systematically and repeatedly demonstrates behaviours that need to be 'forgiven', and that is ultimately and fundamentally a part of their personality (see my story above re. the abusive boss), it's the actions and how they interplayed with you (again, inseparable; see last question). Again, unless those actions demonstrate a deep change in the person committing them (see the best friend story; I have told myself at this point the person who was my best friend is no longer there, just someone who looks and sounds exactly like him; I mourn him and miss him but I do not miss this person in his place).

Austin-Powers said furtehr up this page,

"Jesus told Peter or John (the years between me and Sunday school are a year or two ago) that if your brother sins against you you have to forgive 70 times seven so unlimited.  "

I have a friend who would say to that   "Yes, it will take all of 70 times 7 and maybe more, for me to come close to  forgiving the monster who stole the inocence of my childhood.  In the meantime I'm working on it - recognising the ways my life has been blighted by his actions"

I also think that part of forgiveness is trust. You can forgive but will you ever trust this person again ? Dunno

i think that takes it from forgiveness, into reconciliation. 

Child molesters/abusers are monsters.   That is in quite a different category.   Too often we we use the excuse that "we can forgive but we will not be sitting down to dinner with so & so"   this is a cop out.   For the person who has been physically or sexually assaulted that is not a cop out.  

Heh, Austin.

Please don't judge what type of relationships should or should not reach reconciliation or have dinner.  You name something....for others there are other items they struggle with.

 Imagine you have anchored your boat in a once pleasant bay, but water has turned muddy, the anchor is stuck and you are going crazy with the need to move on.

Cut the anchor rope: that's the act of forgiveness.

There are many new anchors to be had, you get to move on... anywhere. The bay's waters will clear and, when you return, it will be as beautiful as once it was. Forgiveness is the way past a freak situation for both parties involved in a moment of crisis. Both walk away wounded and, while that anchor of anger digs its wound deeper into the grounds of guilt, no-one moves on. 

So, keep the balance. Tell the person you've forgiven but really really mean it, or you'll be giving them the need to forgive you.

We hiurt each other for all sorts of reasons and very few of them are naked, determined rationally calculated, unmotivated spite. And we all experience pains and stresses that make us careless of those around us, even irrationally angry. We need forgiveness to heal as much as the forgiver needs forgiveness to move on.

Pinga asked - If you do not let the person know, then does that mean you open any interface with them?   Is the relationship decision a separate item in total from the forgiveness, ie, " we wish to have a relationship of some form or another", or "we will just ignore each other for eternity "?

No, you don't need to interface with the other party at all - unless you chose to. But if you decide to ignore the other person for eternity it is likley that you are still carrying a grudge and so yopu haven't forgiven.

JamesK....is it possible thet the choice is driven by a desire to protect oneself from a pattern of hurt , especially in a situation where apparent  mental health issues or substance issues occur..and....there is no direction on the other person's behalf to resolve?

or..is the point that....forgiveness requires one to  open  up the relationship, with conditions.  ie, you could see that if this person did xyz, then you would be able to...

having been on the roller coaster of a relationship that is extremely hurtful and borders on danger  sometimes, and is stable others....I am really wondering about forgiveness requiring an openness to the relationship reoccuring, ie involves both parties.

Scenario:

If there was a train...that went off the wheels every so often.....destroying everything around it and everyone on it....and that pattern could be anywhere from 6 months to 2 years...would you get on the train, or would you avoid it?  (Note: when not going off the wheels, it is a fairly nice solid train.  in fact, it gets "rebuilt" and is extra special nice after going off the wheels)

Can you say nice train..i see there is some good stuff..but..until the underlying root cuase is resolved, i am not going near it, nor will my children.  (given there are no clues when the train will go off)

Christianity is, a bove all, practical. It works. What works about forgiveness is that we see the wrong for what really caused, not for some imaginary or emotional verging on hysterical reason. When we see what really causes it, we can work on  a practical solution. Forgiveness is about seeing reality.

And, of course, it benefits us because we deal with reality.

What we watch in foreign affairs, for example, is often an orgy of hatred and indiscriminate killing. It happens because some people want it that way, and they urge us into frenzy of revenge and a belief we are not killing real people but beings possessed of the devil. Remembers Bush's inane explanation of 9/11? They did it because they're jealous of democracy. yeah. Gotta kill.

I always look for practical reasoning in Christian belief, and it's almost always there.

Graeme.. I guess I am not following the flow... ie are you saying the wrong has to be physical, that there isnt' an emotional wrong?  or some mix there in (ie, yelling isn't phsyical, although it causes a physical reaction.  Being in the presence of someone who is vile (racist/drunk/etc) isn't a physical item, but again, results in an emotional reaction.

so..talking on a individual layer, rather than a global layer...are you saying emotions do not play a part?  

no, of course emotions plays a part. That why we brutalize each other and kill each other and make t hings worse. Forgiveness cools us off - which makes us better off, and also enables us to come to grips with the real problem.

There is an emotional reaction to racism. but simply hitting the racist is not likely to cure the problem. Forgiveness means understanding that racism is a human reaction - and that we are all prone to it. I have certainly known moments when I reacted in a racist manner (without admitting even to myself I had done that.) We have almost all of us had a touch of racism. There's a reason for it. Forgiveness means dealing with the reason, and not simply reacting.

There was someone very close to me who "went off the rails" periodically and although there was certainly no physical danger at all, the anger and hurtful words directed both ways was pretty traumatic.  This person brought out the worst in me.   I was seeing a counsellor at the time, and she gave me some really helpful coaching to help me gain some control and like who I was in that relationship again.

Mainly, it was about rehearsing responses to the games, verbal slurs and innuendos when we were visiting.  I practiced a direct and clear way of communication.  Asking "what do you mean?"  "Could you repeat that please?" "Why did you say that?", "What do you want?" etc.

Also, there was some "training" involved.  My visits were really important to this person, and so as long as the conversation was civil, I would respond in kind and we could enjoy one another's company. I stuck to "safe" topics.   I was not to slip into old patterns of being drawn into conflict.

Whenthe conversation deteriorated or  there was an attempt to "get my goat", that's when I would say, "It's time I was going.  See you next time. " and leave.

This helped immensely.  After awhile, I had enough distance that I no longer felt so threatened.

Pinga........this is a tough situation that I and many families have faced. My way of forgiveness in these instances tends to be pragmatic rather than ideal.

Forgive the person - mental health issues or substance abuse are often out of the control of the person concerned. (It's too easy to say, "if I had such and such a problem I'd do something about it".)

Having said that, when I notice the person concerned is "out of it", I limit contact as much as possible for the reasons you give. If it's someone living with you, develop a network of safe houses for temporary shelter.

Ultimately, you may have to break contact altogether. If this happens, you'll eventually feel either compassion and genuine sorrow for the person or bitterness and anger.

The former is an indication of forgiveness.

I'm coming a bit late to this discussion ... hopefully can catch up a bit.   To me, forgiveness is a process, not something naturally occuring, but something we can learn with practice - and it takes a lot of practice!   Some folks advise finding ways to practice small bits of forgiveness every day, so when the biggies come along we're better at it.

It's a shifting of attitude on my part, acknowlegement of my own & others imperfection, and gradually a letting go of anger/resentment etc. that affect my own health & peace of mind.   When I can work through forgiveness, I'm no longer spending my own precious energy today on past hurts that cannot be changed.  

So from that perspective - do I need to tell the other person I forgive them?  Not usually, since it's really a process that  just involves me - not them.  Reconcilliation is not necessary & not even healthy in some cases.  Forgiveness is more about giving one's own self permission to let go and move on, in whatever direction that may be.

So with the train wreck - might be okay to simply decide not to ride that train any more.  Might also be an option to decide what the subtle warning signs of danger might be & how to evacuate at the earliest signs - before getting into danger - much as ninja has written above.   Does the train engineer  need to know you've got an evacuation plan?  Not necessarily - but your close travelling companions might need to know about it so they can come along.  Might be an option to take a bus instead - i.e. change things up substantially to avoid the danger but maintain the contact if you wish.   

Hoping that makes some sense ... C.

All the above makes sense...and is interesting.

I am throwing out scenarios...and trying to get a better handle on what folks think..as well as options around the various manifestions of forgiveness..and patterns of behaviour around  shunning and also acceptance.  In my family history, I can reflect on a few manifestations of both with core issues ranging from the mundane to  mental health,  alcohol abuse &  physical violence.

My sense is families learn patterns of behaviour around forgiveness.  We talked about how hurts run deep, I also sense that patterns around forgiveness run deep.

I think this is also coming to mind, as I listened to the interview of a man with a civil action against a priest.  He isolated himself from the priest and watched his siblings and others and was sure it had stopped. It wasn't until many years later that he realized his younger brother had also been victimized.

Clearly, had someone named it at the time, and been able to get someone to believe them..there would have been less victims.

On a lesser scale, when one forgives behaviour...and there is no change in the behaviour of the individual, so you just put "wrappers" around your engagement with them....are you just setting up others for the same damage -- especially if the individual does not change?

absolutely. And there are times when you cannot solve the problem. The person can only be restrained. There simply are not nice solutions to every problem. But the important is always to remember you are dealing with the problem, not simply expressing your own anger or, worse, self righteousness.

An important distinction exists between forgiving the person, and forgiving the behaviour.  (I love you, but I don't like the way you behave).

I see little sense, and often a lot of harm, in forgiving the behaviour. Your own sense of integrity would mean you have no desire to be an "enabler".

My (now deceased) father-in-law was alcoholic - could get verbally abusive when drunk.  Our pattern became that we would call before going to visit, to see what state he was in, then make a decision to go or not.  We also started visiting earlier in the day - i.e. for coffee in the late morning, or lunch rather than dinner - he was less likely to drunk in the morning or by noon hour.   By doing that we maintained some semblance of relationship as best we were able.

Families definitely form patterns when dealing with substance abuse.  There's a whole interesting body of work on Adult Children of Alcoholics - if you google that, you'll find lots of info.   I think much of that work also extends to children who've grown up with parents who have serious mental health issues.  

Oops - missed the few posts above while posting.  Overlooking or putting wraps around behaviour is not the same as forgiving, at all, in my view.   Forgiving does not say or imply 'this is okay'

Interesting

 forgiveness does not equal  reconciliation

forgiveness does not equal  putting oneself in harm's way

forgiveness recognizes the other individual may not have control of their actions (PP - alchohol/mental health)

forgiveness can be a private, personal action, ie the other individual may or may not be aware  -- and in fact, may be a letting go of something you were holding...ie...it no longer is an issue , you release or forego that emotion/anger/hurt

forgiveness is a healing...(i love mike's image of the anchor holding one back)

forgiveness has some sense of recognition of one's own part and reasonableness.(graeme's posts re emotion/self-righteousness/etc)

forgiveness may be intuitive, can be learned and has a family patterning (wisdom from many of you)

forgiveness is not a one-time event...as in ch's example...you may have to remember why you forgave....

reconciliation may require repeat loops of forgiveness

Reconciliation may require skills developed so one does not repeat the patterns of behaviour ( recognizing that one has an active part in the situation)

reconciliation may require some awareness of location / time of day / patterns

question:

In many of the  examples, people  chose to control their visits with the individual...ie the poster would visit the person.  How would you , or could you, control visits to your home?   (note: i recognize this is taking it from the "forgiving" to the "reconciling" aspect of forgiveness.

Hmmm ... this is more complex  pinga ....

Can you control who visits your home?  yes. 

Can you control a visitor's behaviour once inside your home ... possibly not.  

If you know there are certain triggers for behaviour (sometimes these are known, sometimes not) ... perhaps you can do whatever is possible to minimize those triggers from occuring ... ie not serving alcohol, agreeing amongst guests to avoid certain topics of conversation ... having a strategy to change the conversation if it does come up, enlisting the partner or another friend to 'help' the transgressor leave if they are getting out of hand, etc.

I'd probably be reluctant to invite a person who's a known 'repeat offender' to my home.  I'd rather meet somewhere else that I could leave if I needed to, to preserve my own sanity or safety - in one's own home that's pretty hard to do - but I guess not impossible!  That would create a bit of a stir wouldn't it??

I'll have to think some more about this ...

It would also make a difference if the transgressor lived in your home with you.

Pinga and Pilgrim's Progress

As I had said, the version of Forgiveness I am quoting comes from A Course In Miracles. This version is very similar to the Christian "turn the other cheek" philosophy. Both of these versions of forgiveness are attempting to stop us from seeing the world as Them and Us, or You and Me. Instead we are to see all the souls in the world as one.

But this does not preclude helping the other person. If they have drug, alcohol or other substance abuse problems they can be helped into appropriate programs.

This also does not stop you from protecting your self, your home and your loved ones. And you can protect yourself with whatever force is necessary.

The key part is to stop the anger and the desire for revenge that may be directed toward the other person and to see them as an equal soul - but still one who needs help.

Oh I don't know.  Maybe we should just beat the person/people over the head with what they have done for the rest of their life.  Then we should visit the sin on their children and make their children responsible for that thing they did then we could have good old fashioned family fueds like on the Beverly Hillbillies.

I find it funny how sometimes when I'm really considering something a thread pops up on WC.

In what I believe about the afterlife, I believe that the spirit of the dead can see clearly the people who were in their lives.  I decided that I didn't want my mom to see and maybe feel bad about the anger that I still had about the way she behaved around me coming out in my teens.  I decided to let it go and forgive her.  I wondered whether or not I could forgive her without letting her know.  I don't want to get into that with her at this point.  She is in a bad way and I don't know how she would react.  We have had a really great relationship for years and years and it would be bad to spoil it now when there is so little time left.  From what I've read here I can forgive her without talking to her about it.  Thanks for the thread.

heh somegirl....

my sense is that the issue of forgiveness, in all its complicated forms, is something that many of us deal with...

glad the thread helped you....i know that i am pondering stuff...

JamesK,

Have you read "Good-bye to Guilt" by Gerald Jampolsky? It's about releasing fear through forgiveness, and I believe it's based on A Course of Miracles.

Depends on your age.

If you're a child, you act "good", stay in your bedroom, be quiet and do all you can to avoid any attention.

After living through that, you choose your partner wisely.

 It needn't be this complicated.

.Forgiveness isn't about analysing the experience of hurt away; it's about letting go. 

Letting go is something we're often compelled to do. Why cling to something that makes you feel bad? Ultimately, you'll face letting go of life itself. Why spoil the remaining time?

Forgiveness is not complicated, Mike.   I am beginning to realize that.

Reconciliation is.   Reconciliation can mean that you rebild a relationship.  It may also include the situations when being in the presence of an individual puts yourself or others in harms way.    

Examples:  <<<< snip >>>>>  I am removing the examples that I had posted here, as they are too close and not fair to post.   I am going to try to be generic instead.  My apologies if it causes the thread to seem a wee bit disjointed; however, it does not feel right to post them.  I posted them out of my own need to justify why a relationship could be complex regarding reconciliation.  I can do better, and for that, I am sorry.

For those whom deal with people who have cycles of high risk, followed by semi-normalcy, it can be complicated.  Forgiving, combined with reconciliation during the good times, reintroduces the person to the family unit, and, then sets innocents up for victimization and dangerous situations as time from the last episodes increase and guards drop ..and yes...those incidents are dangerous , high-risk situations which are difficult to predict.

  (noted; there are some where it is clear person is in x state or y state, and are controlling it, then there are those, where it is not clear..  I state that as I do believe that reconcilation can be managed with those who have substance abuse or mental health issues, we have great examples of that on this forum....)

so, reconciliation is complicated.

so , and forgiveness can be too....as it includes damage done to others...

I am not suggesting that women should invite their rapists, ex abusive husbands/boyfriends etc. over for tea.   If your next door neighbour drives through your fence one day because he came home drunk only invite him over for supper only if you had done this before.

I am not sure where you are going with this thread.  It seems as if you have some hidden agenda and I hate hidden agendas.  Out with it already. 

 Ping: forgiveness doesn't require silliness. You learn not to stick your finger in the light socket. You learn not to lie down in front of traffic. There are people who, like traffic, will run you down. If you can't tell them 'time's up, piss off', then you need to get out of range before they self-destruct as they inevitably will.

Disentanglement can be unilateral and remain "loving" in the sense of making the absolute best of whatever is going down. 

To further my metaphor about cutting the anchor rope, don't let the anchor keep hold of you: let it go altogether.

This thread seems to be getting quite complex.  Maybe we need to have some idea of what needs to be forgiven before we can really decide a course of action?  Forgiving a co worker for snapping at you is entirely different from forgiving someone who raped you in childhood. 

well, and, i think in a way, that is the point, isn't it, it is complex.

My sense is that forgiveness is relatively simple, as compared to reconciliation.

So...I think reconcilation is a different thread topic....but, i put out examples to get away from the simplistic comments.....some situations are much more complex than a yes/no.

No hidden agenda. 

I need to ponder forgiveness.....I need to figure out if I have truly forgiven.  I also have people in my circle who are really struggling with being asked to forgive. 

The posts re forgiveness, and the factors related to forigiveness are good, as I think by splitting the forgiveness from the act of reconciliation -- it helps. I also think that by recognizing that forgiveness is a personal thing (ie really really like  the anchor analogy, mike), that i have some good language to have the discussion.

I think, also, as people gather for Thanksgiving, and plan for Christmas, there are strained relationships amongst us.   Who to invite, how to handle it, what that means if you don't invite someone, ie may be two dinners, with additional load / strains for some folks.

I hear of such discussions at work, on wondercafe, in my friends, and family.    My sense is, like some of the other topics, it doesn't hurt to hash it out. 

it definitely is helping me to find language.

Forgiveness imo is not something "to figure out". To borrow Mike's analogy, you know when you're moving freely on the sea of life, as opposed to being fixed to the one spot by an anchor of pain and possibly bitterness.

Cut the ties that keep you in a self imposed prison, and "move,baby, move."

(Oops, forgive the mixed metaphor!)

I like mike's use of the word 'disentanglement' - when the knots of life bind us tightly, sometimes we get them loosened off  through forgiveness, but then some event (like a family dinner) tightens them again ... IMO forgiveness is a process we practice again & again, (especially where families may be concerned!) not necessarily a single act. 

And people within a family all experience that family differently ... so have differing interpretations of events & differing journeys to forgiveness of transgressions.  Complex?  Definitely.

It is very complex, Pinga.  What I see is systemic.  There are so many different approaches to this person from different people that no clear message is being sent.   I believe some level of consistency needs to be applied.  Can you get anyone else on board to support one another in dealing with this behaviour? 

Also, I'm wondering if any pattern is emerging in the behaviour eg.  time of year, stress (moving, finances, family visits etc.), triggers.  We in the biz call it  ABC (antecedent, behaviour, consequence).  It might help to try to track those things to approach the problem.

The biggest question that I have of course is how are vulnerable ones getting hurt?  Sounds like all visits involving the vulnerable need to be supervised.  Is that possible?

Anyway, back to work.  Feel free to Wmail me if you want just to process.  I don't think I have any answers, but I can certainly empathize. 

NF, and Carolla...thanks.

I realize the questions you ask drive me into places that I can't respond or answer in this thread.    I also realize that they are some things that I have to ponder.  

I come back to the folks, who realize they may have isolated themselves from someone who is abusive.   They can forgive the abuser.   They may never wish to reconcile; however, if the abuse is not something that is public and , not criminal behaviour, then, they, by not being present  in t he lives, do not see the signals to help keep others safe.....

It is complicated...to know how to forgive oneself and others....and understand what forgiveness means.

thanks, to all..

sometime, after i have done more processing, i may broach a topic on reconciliation.

For now, forgiveness is something that I will work on, as those have noted, and try to help others do as well, who are close to me.   The image of the boat anchor, and of the moving along the river, sailing anchor free.   ...and enjoying the trip.

in the absence of lbmuskoka i found this quote

To forgive is to set a prisoner free and discover that the prisoner was you.” -- lewis b smedes  (he has a bunch of other good quotes...curious if anyone read hisbook.