Hi topaz_eagle, welcome to wondercafe!

A person need not be spiritual, but it is a great way to be.

I think the purpose of life is to be creative, even when it comes to creating your meaning of life.

Perhaps the problem is you are assuming the choices that you see are the only choices available, and none of them fit you.

Perhaps your path is down a road you havn't found yet.

Hi topaz_eagle and welcome!

I'd echo what Arminius said. As a UCC christian, I cannot imagine my life without spirituality, however I understand that for others - yourself included - that is reality. I don't think, however, that my belief in God is a sign of weakness - or of strength, for that matter.

You ask why it is not enough for you to work, play and sleep. My suggestion is this: we all want to be remembered fondly after we have passed on. We want to know that we have made a positive difference in the lives of others.

I find it interesting that when that person whom you loved passed away, you turned away from God and could not find solace in the idea of Heaven. When I have lost loved ones, the idea of Heaven is part of what gets me through - the idea that they are in a better place where, eventually, I will "see" them once more. It's easier for me to take if I think the goodbye is not eternal.

Why does a person need to have blood?  We are spiritual,but, just as many people neglect their physical, intellectual or emotional well-being, we can neglect the spiritual part of our nature.

Spirituality does not need to be seen as a manifestation of a higher power:  it can be seen as being part of the universe, and honouring that relationship.  You might want to read Ken Wilbur's  A Brief History of Everything for a different view on spirituality.

It can be seen as a sign of strength of being willing to believe in a higher power, a sign that a person is confident and comfortable with whom they are, and a sign that they are willing to let extra power flow through them in making a difference in this world.

Whether there is an after-life or not, the purpose of life, to me, is to fulfill our possibilities and develop our potentials in tune with the inner music / heart of our being.  Unfortunately, for me, I often fall short due to distractions from the noise of the world around me.

Your last question puzzles me -- there is nothing wrong with the cycle you describe.  What matters is how you are engaged in that cycle -- are you the driver or the passenger?  Sometimes I am the driver in my cycle, and sometimes I am the passenger.

I wish you well in your search for answers and hope your participation in WC is a blessing to you.

Wow - thanks so much for responding!

Arminius - Yes, perhaps I should create my faith instead of trying to fit into someone else's mold.

Witch - definately looking for the right path. Really wish it would jump up and bite me. :)

solgalfromcan *waves* I'm also a gal from Can. Thanks for your message. I was annoyed that my faith abandoned me when I was dealing with death. Very annoyed. I'd spend all my life investing in this one religion and when I needed it, it disolved.

Jim - Thanks for the suggestion. I love that book. Thanks for your comments.

Topaz

topaz,

if you read the gospels of Matthew , Mark, Luke and John, i believe you will understand, and so much much more! just try it, they arnt that long,.....inform yourself, /...educate yourself.......decide for yourself! i think you took a great step...and reflects thirst for truth!, im sure the gospels will speak to you with that in your heart....and much much more.!

Be careful what you ask for lol.

Seriously though, when your path does find you, you may find yourself surprised that it seems as if it were there all the time and you wonder how you could have missed it.

In my experience there is a feeling of "coming home" which well serves to indicate you've truly found the path where God, in whatever form it manifests for you, is patiently waiting.

Hi topaz,

Welcome to the cafe.

I'm in a similar situation to you in that my husband died three years ago.

As an engineer, he never believed in an afterlife - but he did believe that we were all star stuff, and as such we all come and go in this life as star stuff.

Not as comforting as a traditional belief in an afterlife, is it?

For an all too brief time he was in remission - and we went to listen to Bishop John Spong address a progressive Christian conference.

Now Bishop Spong was a hero to my husband, but on the way home from the conference he said to me, "I used to wonder how educated people could believe in something as unscientific as an afterlife - but now that my life is threatened I understand completely - nobody wants to be sick and die."

I, too, don't believe in a traditional afterlife - but since my husband's experience, I do understand the reason why.

I don't fret about not believing in an afterlife though - I've found it's the best aphrodisiac for living THIS life to the full.

For how long?  Why? In 1000 years will anyone know that you existed? Why would you care?

I'll think about that before take issue.

If that is truly believed, why al the weeping and sadness? Why not a wake and 'see ya later'?

  i wanted to mention that you touched on something that is the cause of manys fall (in my opinion)....As a Christian i would recommend you do not embrace this aphrodisiac you speak of.

as it seems to convince you to ignore the word.....

John 6:63

just lovin' ya.

That may be true for you Stephenbooth, but not for me.  I don't know or care much if there is an afterlife.  Many Christians have discovered a lot of truth in the idea that Heaven is now, and Hell is now, and we're working for heaven on earth, while very aware that most are living through  hell.  The peace of God that helps is found in loving relationships, caring for one another, justice-seeking, compassion ... etc.  It isn't hard at all to find this perspective very solidly grounded in the gospel writings.  That old idea of waiting for heaven was too often used to keep little people in line under harsh governments and slave traders etc.  Jesus would have been furious.  In fact, he often was.

Topaz-eagle - I'm glad you joined in our conversations.   You'll probably find a lot to think about, and maybe even some laughter too (ok, definately so).  I have spent lots of time wishing a giant Monty Python God finger would point from the sky and show me exactly what I'd like to know.  Never happens, darn it all!

  I think 'Spirituality' of varying degrees wells up inside some of us, more than others, and manifests differently in some than others.  Ask what it means, and you'll get as many answers as there are humans on this earth.

So the purpose of life, as far as I can see it, whether you're atheist, unsure or faithful ought to be to "Make the world a better place".  Sometimes it takes some serious unpacking to reconcile that with some religious upbringings, or family circumstances.  'Every man for himself' is a pained response to neglect, whether at the  hands of our kin or church, and I don't think one can find Heaven anywhere (on earth or after) with a selfish attitude.

Hi topaz-eagle. Welcome to the cafe. I certainly don't have any answers but this is a great place to walk to ask the questions.

Topaz,

God and spirit means so many different things to so many people ... one has to take the whole thing in to understand ... a probablity in this dimension?

But there is this quote of old script about understanding as catagorical ... but many physical Gods wouldn't want you to do that ... you'd slip out from under their control.

I'd say think about it but many institutionalized people would say that's evil (thought, the-O) don't go there ... now what does the word say about knowing the alien ... how much alien word is there about God (the whole thing) that many have isolated into a duality ... then they can't get it together ... as Love will separate a lot of things without a balanced understanding. Fear is a great tool in the processing of this fallout .. star dust ... dirt on the surroundings?

God does have a sense of humours ... Plasma? Just look around ... IT circulates everywhere with gigabits of information on self ... you have to reach to get it some imagination required ... and they'll all tell you imaginary things are not real ... angelfire ...dark holes?

I agree with Jim Kenney and Ken Wilbur. I think and feel that everything is spirtual, that energy is spirit, and that the universe is a self-creative or self-generative whole in a unitive state of synthesis, with us as an inseparable part of IT. 

Thus, spirituality is innate: being is being spiritual. If we are not ware of this, then all we need to do is become aware.

Arm,

The earthy Gods will get you ... they might learn soemthing from you in the roasting!

Hi topaz_eagle. Welcome!

You raise some important and interesting points. One thing I would say in opening. You wrote:

I still believe in respecting my elders, helping the less fortunate, etc. I just don't believe that I owe this service to a higher being.

I would like to think that we all do such things not because we "owe" such behaviour to God, but simply because we desire to live in peace with one another. So I don't think that feeling you don't "owe" such things to God automatically means you're not a believer.

As to your questions:

Why does a person need to be spiritual?

I guess essentially, I would say that a person needs to be alive to be spiritual, and that a person needs to be spiritual to be alive. Life and spirituality of some sort go hand in hand. I don't mean that flippantly. I'm quite serious. To be spiritual is to have a sense of connectedness to or relationship with others, or with creation itself. I know atheists who are spiritual people, and who would self-define as "spiritual." To say more, I would need to know what you consider "spirituality" to be?

Is this really part of our neccessary make-up as human beings?

I think human beings have relationships and are inevitably connected to their surroundings. So, yes, I think a spirituality of some kind is inevitable in any human life. Whether each person would define it as spirituality is another matter.

Its it a weakness to need to believe in something higher?

Not necessarily. The "need" may come about through weakness. As Paul said, "when I am weak, then I am strong." It could come about for many other reasons as well, though. My own journey of faith probably had its initial origins in a sense of sheer wonder at the complexity of the universe that I started to seek an explanation for - a search that led me finally to God.

If there is no afterlife, what should the purpose of a life be?

I find the "if" at the beginning of your question difficult for me to deal with, because I believe that life does not end with death. However, in broad terms, "afterlife" or not, I suppose the purpose of life is love. "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul and mind and strength, and love your neighbour as yourself." That sums up the "purpose of life" question well enough for me.

Why is it not enough for me to work/play/sleep/repeat?

Going along with your other questions, I guess I would say because none of those things require any real sense of either relationship or love.  Perhaps it's the difference between mere existence and real life, if that makes any sense.

Hi Stephen,

Just so's you know - I don't ignore the essence of the word.

Thanks for choosing to love me in this life - if there's no afterlife I would miss out on your affection.

I neglected the afterlife part of the opening post.  I have wrestled with this question for a long time.  Tom Harpur's Life After Death provided interesting reading.  Deepak Choprah (sp?) in his book on the afterlife (I forgot the title and my wife has it at school, I think), suggests we create our own afterlives in this life.  If we believe in a heaven and hell kind of afterlife, that is what we will find.  If we don't believe in any afterlife, then we won't have one.  If we believe in something else, then that is what we will find.  If we believe in reincarnation, then we may come back in another life.  Who knows?  Why does it matter?  The most important thing about death to me is to remind us of the importance of living the lives we have, each and every day.

Hi topaz - I'm not going to speak directly to the discussion of an afterlife as I've done that in a few threads the last few days. But I do want to speak to your question of 'why does one need to be spiritual/believe in a higher power?'. My answer is that one doesn't, per se. Which sounds funny coming from a Christian, but let me share an anecdote:

I am a UCCan member of 18 years or so standing. I believe very strongly, albeit very personally, in my faith and find a lot of comfort for myself in God's companionship. While I have never been a proseletyzer, and I have never had a problem with people who walk in other faiths, the one thing I always found a bit sad was those who didn't believe - atheists. Then I met my husband - a highly dubious agnostic at best, and who acknowledges even that little bit of acknowledgement there might be something Divine out there is a bit of uncertainty/hedging his bets. He is Jewish by background. I never tried to 'convert' him to Christianity, however, I did encourage him to get in touch with Jewish places of worship, and did struggle a bit with seeing his atheism as a lack - a lack of belief, as opposed to a belief in and of itself. And yet, by his example and through years of being with him, I have long since come to realize that while God makes me happy, hubby isn't exactly miserable without 'Him/Her' either.

MY CONCLUSION? As long as one believes in SOMETHING - my husband believes in the beauty of nature, the importance of environmental responsibility, social justice, loving-kindness ... I call these things Holy, he calls them nature, or humanity, or what have you; at the end of the day, what's the difference? If you have something grounding you, keeping you happy, that you can hold to and believe in - you are one of the lucky ones, even if you don't necessarily stamp God-language all over it.

Hi Jim Kenney:

Yes, Harpur's "Life after Death" is a fascinating read!

I once had a vision in which I saw space unfold into opposite dimensions of three-dimensional space, beginning with two bubbles of commencement, one nestled inside the other. The outer bubble unfolded in outward quantum leaps into outward space, the inner bubble in inverse quantum leaps into inverse space—in the same space!

The ordinary outward space that we all are familiar with is difficult enough to imagine because it is so astronomically huge! Can you imagine the same space inversely: inverse space nestled inside outward space! There would be enough inverse space to record every moment of the unfolding universe of outward space!

I imagine the universe unfolding in outward space and forward time while etching the memory of its unfolding into inverse space and reverse time in the form of a hologram. 

I am so glad I joined this site! Thanks for sharing your thoughts and advice with me. You are all wonderful!

Stevenbooth - Thanks for your comments. Reading the gospels again couldn't hurt.

Pilgrims Progress - Thanks for sharing about your husband. I am an engineer too, blessed/cursed with an analytical mind. I intend to look up this Bishop Spong that you spoke of.

Birthstone, your comments really struck me, especially the contrast between 'helping the world be a better place' versus 'every man for himself'. So much to think about.

Rev Davis - Thanks for your detailed answers. It helps to break things down.

Jim Kenny - I found Deepak Choprah's "Life After death, the burden of proof" fascinating. I have to find the other book you mentioned - Tom Harpur's Life After Death. Thanks.

Topaz

Very nice conclusion Olivet_Sarah.

And Topaz_Eagle - very nice name btw, reminds me of my favourite places Arizona/New Mexico - welcome to the Cafe may your journey here be enlightening.

I would add, having read the above responses, that often people seek certainty; concrete answers to complex and, perhaps, unanswerable questions.  We, humans, seem to fear the "I don't knows" of life and with that fear tend to toss out solutions that retain a degree of the unknown as the answer.

I don't know if there is an afterlife.  I don't know if there is a higher being, a God or IT.  I don't even know what today will bring and every time I do think I know I usually experience a big surprise - ah the quote "the plans of mice and men" was the first ever remembered and is oft (that oft was for Pilgrim) on my lips.

It has been my experience, and it may not be others, but once I embraced the idea that "I don't know" is a legitimate, if perhaps only temporary, answer, when I recognized there is no shame or fear in not knowing, my world of possibilities broadened.  I was no longer trapped in the confines of "certainties" and can now enjoy the big surprises - good or bad - for what they are, parts of the tapestry of life that is woven for each of us.

LB

As flames do work and winde, when they ascend,
So did I weave my self into the sense.
But while I bustled, I might heare a friend
Whisper, How wide is all this long pretence!
There is in love a sweetnesse readie penn’d;
Copie out onely that, and save expense.

      George Herbert, Jordan II (and an enlightening explanation)

Topaz- Eagle (a favourite colour, a favourite bird) - welcome to the Cafe.  I hope that you find a community here that will support, challange, and encourage you in your search for meaning.  

Your final question in your opening post was:   what is wrong with  work, play, sleep, repeat ?   There is nothing wrong with it, if it works for you.    But what I see missing from this formula is a feeling of connectedness - of being a part of something - of being someone who matters, and who can make a difference.  

To put it into a religious context:   Someone who matters to God, someone who is known, cherished and surrounded by the Love of God - someone precious in God's sight - Beloved Topaz-Eagle.    And someone who has love to share - love to respond to God's love, and love to reach out to others, to really care about others, to turn to them when you need help and support and to reach out to them when you need them.  To see God in everyone you meet.  To love your neighbour as yourself.  To realize, as the UCC creed put it "We are not alone . . ."

Sorry, I didn't mean to preach.   I'm just trying to imagine what life would be like to just  'work, play, sleep, repeat'   and it seems rather hollow to me.   I would look for a connection - a relationship with others - and with the Holy.

I bet when 'work, play, sleep, repeat' is feeling like a good thing,  it is because of the relationships that are involved - ie working at an interesting task with interesting people; the relationships that grow with the people we like to play with, the restful, contented sleep after a full day, and certainly the person who might share that sleeping space with us ;)     Out of those relationships, we come to understand ourselves & our world & our values better... that is a spiritual journey of sorts, no matter the language we use.

I'm really not sure what you mean by this.  Atheists are no less charitable than believers - we just don't tithe, for obvious reasons.  We also aren't any more likely to push the elderly in front of buses, unless they annoy us.

What atheists are you trying to connect to?  There are very few atheist groups in Canada, and what you are describing doesn't really seem to match them.  They're also not social groups, that I'm aware.

I'm not equipped to tell you how you should accept the death of a loved one.

Personally, I can't accept the concept of heaven because there is no reason to believe it, and as such, I feel that anyone who tells you with certainty that the deceased is going to heaven is telling you a lie, albeit a white one.

I don't think there is a requirement to be "spiritual".  I think it is important to appreciate what you have, and to appreciate moments like sunsets and mountains and when you get the ratio of coffee-to-milk just right.  I think it's important to make time for friends, exercise, and reading, and personal contemplation.  I don't equate being awed by a landscape with being spiritual, but some do.

The purpose of your life is what you make it.  That's up to you.

As long as you include "play" in there, I think it is enough.  People wonder what to do without church.  There are lots of activities and sports and groups to pursue.  I ski and mountain bike as often as I can.  I run with my kids in a yuppie jogging stroller.  I meet people while I'm out doing these things.  My wife curls.  I think it's silly, but she gets out of the house and meets people weekly.

One thing these groups don't do?  Sing.  I don't need that.  If you do, find a karaoke bar.

Sleep, eat, work, etc. ... can we relate while doing this?

Some people do not believe in the concept of alchemy ... realtivity of all things in an energetic wah ... oops spiritual  ... in relating to my Rite Hand ... ARM! It is like a foot on the shin ... sort of a bonnie extreme that Hebrews called the point of beginning ... a 3 part syli-buss of of a KISS with the whole thing ... that's God in a thought ... well-whetted?

Now is love, or thought a physical phenomina or metaphysical reality in another dimension of space ... paranormal behaviour in a Roman world where common people were not supposed to do hyperbolic stuff ... like satire on a belief ... only in the physical?

Now is a word passing through air, water, or through a Wahl ... just a disturbance of the medium ... or is it physical? What if when it passes through the mind in a vacuum ... ether; it must be without a mind or care ... a mindless, Godless being that doesn't care ... a child of man as borne here? It is something you growinto as a swelling entity .. a RIP'Ur in vacant space ... Tamyr ... the continuum goes on and on and neither poe'rful men (Judaic) or militant types (Roman/Macedonians) would accept that kind of a stretch ... only what they could control ... a sort of denial or de Luçion Eire process in the out of the bo'ques scene, airy-O ... chi!

Is God word, can you play with ET as a funny fellow that expands uncontrolably like the emotions ... once out there it cames back at yah like a thought ... paranormal reflection in a dark Mir? To know you'd have to believe or IT would retreat as the old proverb says ... you never see IT UN-tile ... pure han/nah .. old old sign for the process  of cymbals ... the clash of Tite n's in space ... the emotional thought ... wah out there when you relate IT to this palce as defined in wedster ... Eros ... the point of expanding the nonexistent sapace. Nothing according to my granfaterh's description of a loving mine ... just a point to drag upon ... Drew-ID? Fringe of the well ...

Go get em Boies ... the hounds of ba scare ville on the loose with eM that fear nothing ... just a Pa'n in the donkey that comes with learning about wondering on the straight and narrow ... like light it wanders, appears to come out of nowhere and everywhere---Lord Rutherford on his early experiments with energetic radi ... or radiation as we'd call the holy beam ... stuck in the eye ... as the mote passed ... a word so'd we sae ...

Most of light is dark, with only a thin band of visiblity like looking into the unknown ... séance or sea antes ...elated poeL? Up ended and rising reciprocation Arm ...

Out of this realm chi be'h. Or you could spell it b'n in the Greek form H bean equitable to n in the Greek form ... too sticky for the Roman and their followers, Gaels, Francs, Germans and Celts ... not to speak of those far colder in their expressions ... Isis ... God of the "C" with any warmth ... Mir image of the northern climes ... up over or myth to the heated sorts if you get my grist! The stoppage will give you a time of rest like God ... seven daes just won't do it in such a JOB ... a longer sabbatical please! I think hei left the hoes ... best little one in Tex'is ... do for cultivating the ruagh ... never on a Sunday they say ... best day for plo ein!

Like a phtha LIC sign, in some tongues the pha is just a word like "the" or Tao ... meaning just a word ... then hoo dah goan that far to learn the word of many facited tongues in the dark hole this came from ... warm ole in space? De deuced helioptics ... spun delicately so as not to harm until you get to close to awareness without a care ... cool eh? Thats a th'aught ... near nothing as space is all bent out of shape with what we've done down ear ... another simple 'ole in the 'eaD! Done in pars' ... Eris n like a spring period ... when all bounces back ... Like supernatural ... making some think of the beuty of all that surrounds you ... Jaw'n Nash? Unknown power of the wilderness ... just sucks yah right in without any weight ... carry a wee bit a sol ... holds yah in a jabberywahlque ... a storm of words ... like the mentally distressed without the assistance of an ordered mind in this place ... takes some care and patience ... bi blick el ... they say .. who's they ... that's eM in old words medium of the flood ... all the light awareness that surrounds ... scares the 'elle out of the instituted who hide according to the duff rules of the figgy ... well-bred fruit of God ... that's a love that never ends ... Black Hole thing heh ... consumes all and spits out the chits ... wee bits in space ...

I meant by the people who knew me. When they remember the things we did together with a smile.

I don't understand - what could be wrong with wanting to be remembered as someone who made a positive difference in the lives of others?

For me, the reason is two-fold. First-off I don't do well with transitions - especially major ones like death. When my friends move to other cities I cry because I won't get to see them as often - they won't be a part of my daily life in the same way as they have in the past. The same is true for when someone I love dies - although I think of them often, I can't pick up the phone and call them. I also recognize that I may be wrong about Heaven and that the goodbye may actually be eternal.

The other thing I forgot to ask, topaz_eagle, is why bother connecting with atheists in your area?  Why not connect to other runners, other knitters, other potters, or other taxidermists?  That is, connect with others over some shared interest, sport or hobby.

Atheism is such a pointless thing to connect over.  Get two atheists together, and they each don't believe in God.  How long does that conversation last?

Atheist 1: "Do you believe in God?"

Atheist 2: "Nope.  You?"

Atheist 1: "Nope."

*pause*

Atheist 2: "Nice weather today...."

This is why I don't hang out at atheist forums.  Not believing in something is not much of a connection.  You don't see clubs for people who don't curl.

I agree there is no shame in saying "I don't know" - the longer I live the easier it gets!

These days I cope with the fear of uncertainty reasonably well -although I wouldn't go so far as to say I enjoy the bad surprises.

But there is one fear that I can't escape from - the fear of death.

When I try and analyse this fear, it's about no longer existing - the world going on without me. That's why a potentially serious illness causes me such angst. Is this it? Have I reached my use by date?

Being the person I am, I'm forced to confront this fear directly. No hiding behind the hope of an afterlife for me.

When I think of the rather desperate measures folks undertake to stay young - not to mention how many of the world's religions believe in an afterlife or reincarnation - I KNOW I'm not alone in this "mother of all fears".

Essentially, my spiritual pilgrim's progress is to get beyond this fear - to meet the inevitable with dignity and peace.

And I need God's help for that.............

Chansen - that last line made me laugh.  My sweetheart is nodding as if you've got a good point! ;) 

I could very nearly print exactly what you jsut said in that whole thing, but I'd still add in my little bit about feeling 'spiritual'.  Guess that's me.  But as I've said many times before, I dont' care if someone is young or old, tall or short, black or white, gay or straight, male or female, faithful or not, if you are making the world a better place, I'm happy to stand beside you. 

And I don't mind singing - good for the diaphraghm and for restless energy. 

Hi Topaz,

It appears from reading your opening post that perhaps the loss of your loved one was what turned you form GOd???

I think alot of people struggle with how/why GOd would let a loved one die.  Especially if you were praying for their survival.

Alot of people strugle with faith at different times in their lives.

Faith isn't a straight path.  It is a wandering path for many of us.  Trips that branch out and then ways back to the main path. 

You don't need faith but perhaps you do have it, just not a faith that you feel supportinjg you now.  If this loved ones death was recent or this person was very important to you perhaps what you are still feeling is grief over their loss.

Grief can make us angry at God and make us turn away.  It makes other people turn to God for comfort.

Any chance that some grief counselling ro reading woudl help?

We probably should, shouldn't we?

Does the light IC travel in straight lines? IT should be a harmonious balance though ot it appear as a screech ... like a bonnie finger on the slate ... flat out ear-Th'!

Then light has 6 linear dimensions and 6 rotational dimensions and something to hold it all togeter ... Higgs Bo S'n? It is a G. Point in the centre ... dark under all that aura ... ike its not all over yet ... superficial ... i don't think so in all this subliminal humour that spat out by the unknowing. What do we know as mortals ... limited in perspective do to desire? Give ID up folk, grasp the eKos with some emotive towards balance ... God will put some crazyness back on the ship ... like during the Cane Mutiny ... everybody going to another side from the Master ... caused a certain sense of madness aboard ... like cutting into a tree ... just knock sound it out ... yah don't have to kill the whole metaphorical source ... tree of logic ... hated by the overly emotional?

God yah 'Ave tue L'uv' the deep humours of internal space ... con volute'd? Its a twisted  Ammon! Worst ded is yet to come if you feel the fabric ... there's a tremdous logic to be released when you give up the kyne of des Ire ... pure hate for the brother of Love .. the rationale of Life ... Pisces angle ... a bent yellow stream in the poe-L ... devilish amis .. off thinking like a devil in limbic fashion ... DNA'ght is ugly when tied to the fecund surrounding of mother mitocondria ... slimy a a Greek Urn ... greasy conconction of water an dOI' ... pyre biere?

A balanced sol is preferred but it is said nothing is perfect down here ... so we'd learn of the Mac Hynations ... the works?

Hi Topaz_Eagle

 You posted some time ago and I hope within this time you have found some peace.I hope also that you are aware that life has cycles. People sometimes feel despair or desire answers and that will eventually be followed by periods of contentment . Sometimes the cycles are longer but they ARE cycles. If you are still looking for solace in the death of your loved one then I suggest you do or create something in their honor.  Start something that you wouldn't have otherwise that has a ripple effect beyond your existance and theirs and do it in their name even if only in your own mind.It will give you a feeling of purpose and allow their "spirit" to live on in a tangible way as well as a way you couldn't even conceive of. You would have to find something meaningful to you and I couldn't begin to suggest something that you would find suitable. That has to come from you. You never know how your actions will effect others and in turn make some of those people feel the need to then do something. Our children and there classmates regularily  raise enough money to install  wells to provide clean water for a community that has many challenges. This has a lasting effect on those communities.You could simply do something symbolic like planting a tree if that could be meaningful to you. You will find that it gives you a sense of purpose and the rest will take care of its self. Be open. Be respectful. Be Kind. Be non-judgemental. Be patient.

On a personal note; I am not religious and I am an extremly content, happy, productive and respectful member of the world community.This also makes it very easy for me to respect other peoples truths and feel no need to defend my own. I see it as one of an infinite number of interpretations.There are many, many ways to contentment which is obvious when you look at the world community and see the diversity of what people KNOW to be the truth and are living successful productive lives following those truths.So if the truth you find provides a framework for you to exist in a life affirming respectful manner then live it fully.

Can you explain further why you cannot accept solace in the concept of heaven?  It seems to me that the ONLY way to accept solace in death is to believe that - specially if the person was a Christian. 

I hope topaz_eagle is still around to answer himself at some point, but here is my agnostic response:

I cannot be certain of the existence of a God and if there is one, I don't think it's the familiar "old guy in the sky" God of traditional Christian faith.

I do not know if there is an afterlife. I cannot know until I get there. If there is one, I don't believe it will be the Heaven and Hell of traditional thought. More likely some kind of reincarnation or a broader afterlife where we create our own heaven and hell by our actions and attachments rather than being condemned by some other being based on what we believe.

I do not believe in the mind/soul as separate from the body. The mind/soul is a function of the activity of the brain. There is too much evidence of how mind and body interact to believe that one is magically separate from the other.

The fact that when we die, our bodies will break down into their chemical components, feed bacteria, and generally go back to the earth from which we came is knowable and is empirically provable. Life as we know it ends there and anything else is a matter of faith.

For me, then, solace in the notion of death comes from acceptance of my mortality and the need to both enjoy this life and do my part to help others, both my contemporaries and future generations, enjoy it by making the world better for them.

It comes from the fact that the chemical elements and compounds of my body will someday become part of something, maybe even someone, else.

It comes from believing that I am part of something bigger and more beautiful than me and that that something, which might be called "God" or "Divine" but is really just the creative forces that shape existence, is also a part of me.

I know that traditional, esp. very conservative, Christians find this attitude hard to swallow so I'm not expecting you to accept it for yourself , only to accept it that for some of us it is an alternative to believing in the ideas of Heaven, Hell, and God.

Mendalla

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Topaz-Eagle said,

"Here's some thoughts from my head: Why does a person need to be spiritual? Is this really part of our neccessary make-up as human beings? Its it a weakness to need to believe in something higher? If there is no afterlife, what should the purpose of a life be? Why is it not enough for me to work/play/sleep/repeat?"

That little formula will cause your brain to atrophy and become dependent on autopilot. It looks like you've added the word "seek"...... and I agree.

Unfortunately, history shows us that people have "known" hundreds and thousands  of things that turned out to be simply not true.  In addition, just because Christian "know" their version is true is , in and of itself, of no real value, since adherents of every religion "know" their version is true as well. With no evidence to show, there's no valid basis for Christians to claim thier "knowing" is any better than any other faithful person's "knowing". Human beings are quite capable of "knowing" complete fabrications with impunity.

The effect of this is that "knowing" something has neve been a very good indication of whether such a thing is true or not.

What I believe is true as well. For me. Religious belief is in the subjective realm and that's why I don't feel the need to have others subscribe to my views.

However, that's not what buford asked. He asked how someone can have solace in death without belief in God or Heaven and I answered him.

Mendalla

that is very true, so the question remains, who get to say what is the Truth?

not one of us, thats for sure. 

the only one who can would be god herself.  unless we know the mind of god, to suggest that this or that is or is not the truth would be ridiculous.

therefore, i follow what speaks to my heart.  i know what jesus asks of me. 

and that my dear, is the Truth :)

for me, or for everyone??

And you did so well.  Thank you.