Seige said....... "The point is to show all these unbearably superstitious people that we do indeed have a presence on this site. "

Seige ...... maybe you should take your bad manners and haughty attitude somewhere else?

.....no hugs for you ....

Rita

I am a theist, so maybe you don't want me derailing your thread before it even gets on rails... but

I didn't think there was any doubt that a lot of atheists visit and even "frequent" this site.

OK, first, I think you have the wrong attitude, here.  (says the guy with the "TOXIC" avatar)

No, really.  WC is run by the UCC and are not a bunch of creationist knuckledraggers who make debates seem more like shooting fish in a barrel.  There are some good people here, some smart people here, and many of them are believers of varying descriptions.  Most, I'd guess, don't believe in "vicarious redemption", for example.  It can be a tad time consuming trying to figure out which parts of the bible people here take as literal and which they take as metaphor.  Trying to figure out what those metaphors are is a completely different problem.  Suffice to say, you aren't in Kansas any more.

Now, there are also Baptists here who would make other Baptists shake their heads, but their numbers are similar to us atheists.

My recommendation is that you sit back, read, and pick your spots.

Wow, a youngster with a chip on his shoulder.... what're the odds?

There's quite a few atheists on this site, and we've all had some pretty good conversations with them. I'm not sure they really think they need a leader, so you might want to ask if the position exists before you leading your non-existent troops into a battle nobody cares about.

chasen ...... thank you ...

Hugs

Rita

I was just thinking that myself Rita. Thankyou Chansen!

Welcome to Wondercafe, Siege.Chansen has said pretty much all that needs to be said. I'm an agnostic myself who has flirted with outright atheism at times and has a number of atheist friends, so I have some sympathies with an atheist viewpoint.

Mendalla

and me

I appreciate everyone's criticism (both atheist and theist alike)! I most certainly am not trying to offend anybody. I am only trying to see how many likeminded people visit this site; it was most certainly NOT a call to arms. As Witch so kindly pointed out, I am young. My position, however, has nothing to do with rebelling against my parents or fighting the status quo (as is the case with so many teenagers these days). I also would never assume that the majority of the people here are fundamentalists and creationists, but that doesn't excuse the fact that, in my opinion, a lot of the conversations on this forum are rather superstitious. I am sure most of the contributors are nice, honest and intelligent people but that is not what I am objecting too, I am objecting to their beliefs, not their personalities.

So..... what exactly does you objecting to someone else's beliefs accomplish?

Seige .... then may I please request that you do so with some manners?

I don't mind being challenged on what I believe ....but I am sensitive as to how....

Maybe we are just getting off on the wrong foot...

Hugs

Rita

Ahh a teenage atheist, what are the odds.

Enjoy your stay here.  Perhaps rather than decide that we are superstitious dummies you might join in a conversation

I doubt you could hold a candle to anyone here either atheist or theist or purple peopel eaters.

Perhaps you might like to start by outlining for the masses what exactly caused you to decide on atheism for your religious beliefs

I'm an atheist.

I don't care for the tone of your question/post. The point of coming to this site for discussions on religion is that Wondercafe, and the United Church of Canada, constitutes a group of theists with whom an atheist can have a respectful and intelligent conversation on religious topics.

It is insulting to just use a blanket insult like "all these unbearably superstitious people" and apply it en masse. That serves no useful purpose, and only serves to have people you disagree with not only consider you a jerk, but to also discredit any beliefs and opinions you hold.

If anyone is feeling ill from sending compliments my way, you can be reassured that I still think your God and your Christ are remarkable fabrications who aren't worth following in the first place, and that saying someone is "a person of faith" is an insult.  I tend not to tip-toe around this topic either.

In this case, I'm guessing "Siege" here is used to loud debates with Christians who think radioactive dating is no good for fossils but perfectly fine for bits of wood on Mount Ararat, so he came out swinging and missed badly.  Attacking UCC'ers over vicarious redemption is like attacking the British for the BP oil spill.  At least, I think it is.  Somebody has to come up with a chart of beliefs or something for this place.

Witch: Under the right circumstances, quite a bit actually. I know many people (both friends and otherwise) who have become atheists or agnostics after having their beliefs questioned and objected to. I conceed the this forum is probably not the right circumstances but I do it because well, if you want an honest answer, it is rather fun.

RitaTG: You obviously differ from me on this, but I do not understand why these beliefs must be confronted in a way which is so incessantly polite and respectful? I hold a great amount of respect for you as an individual but why must I respect your beliefs? I vehemently object to political, artistic, literary, and cinematic  beliefs that I disagree with and yet no one seems to ever get ruffled. If I think a movie is terrible, I say it is terrible. If I  adore a book, I say I love it. If I strongly disagree with someone's opinions on our health care system, I say so in an aggressive manner. Why can the same not be said for religious beliefs?

lastpointe: I guess I deserved that.

You might want to consider that finding your fun in insulting other people's dearly held beliefs is rude, and cruel.

Your position is little different from the fundie who thinks the bast way to convert is by telling people they're going to Hell for being totally depraved, and anyone who thinks differently is wrong and foolish.

It may be fun for the fundie, but it accomplishes the opposite of the stated intent.

seathanaich: Thanks for the criticism. I recognize that the UCC is an incredibly liberal organization where one is much more likely to have an intelligent discussion than some other religious denominations. The last thing I want to do is discredit myself. 

Don't worry Chansen I expect you'll continue to be that stone in my shoe that sometimes makes my walk uncomfortable-----but worth the journey.

witch: I think you misinterpreted me, I don't find fun in insulting people (that really would be cruel), I find fun in debating people. Also, I am not trying to convert anyone on this post (as I stated quite clearly in my intro), I am simply trying to see how many atheists there are on here. This post never set out to convert anyone. Unlike the "fundies" you keep mentioning, I am in no way threatening anyone.

chansen: It's true that the vast majority of people I've debated have veered toward the fundamentalist side of the scale. Also, as I said to seathanaich, I recognize that UCC is very progressive. I agree with you that it can be very hard to keep track of exactly how literally various indviduals/denominations take the bible.

LOL chasen ...when I compliment you I have my bottle of Maalox handy (joke)

I am under no illusion regarding a softening of your stance nor do I require such

Siege and chasen ..... my point is this ..... debate should be civilized ......

Call into question my beliefs ..... that I can deal with .... belittle me and that I will not appreciate nor tolerate.       When I disagree I present my case as clear as I can focused on the topic as I can and I try and do so in a way that honours the person who presented the viewpoint.

Generally I answer crass with class but sometimes I do stumble.

If you want to treat me as some bumbling demented, intellectually lacking, mentally unbalanced person then I shall ignore you.    If I am really in such a desperate need of such treatment I can get plenty of that in my own church.  (how is that for reality)

I require a civilized level of respect and I plan to have it.    

I of course shall treat you and your thoughts with respect as well...... regardless......

Rita

RitaTG: I will most definitely treat you with respect but I will not treat your beliefs with that same respect. I'm sure you are intelligent, I'm sure you are kind, I'm sure you are balanced and I'm sure I agree with you on many things. However, if you are religulous, I find it hard to show any respect for your beliefs as I do not believe that they have earned my respect.

Siege, you really, really have to work on how you phrase things.  It's not your content that is the problem - it's much like my own.  But your words are like fingernails on a chalk board.  They're needlessly abrasive.

Then Siege ....we shall not be discussing very much....

chansen: In which way are they needlessly abrasive? Is my language not rather tame compared to that of a negative book or movie review? In fact, I have been trying rather hard to restrain myself...

Try harder.

Nobody's faith has to "earn your respect".  If you have Jehova's Witnesses proselytizing at the door, then yeah, they have to win you over (and convince you that lifesaving blood transfusions are somehow "bad"), but you came here.  Atheists have a hard enough time with our public perception as it is.  Please don't make it worse.

and who the hell (pun intended) are you that one needs to earn your respect? God?, o right you dont beleive

RitaTG: If you talk, I will listen. If you try to explain your beliefs, I will be receptive. I will even try (against my 'abrasive' and impulsive nature) to be civil and calm. But you can't demand that I respect your beliefs (or vice-versa). As I've said, I respect you because you seem to be a kind, intelligent individual. That does not mean that I respect all of the beliefs you hold.

blackbelt: I'm not saying that anyone needs to earn my respect, I'm simply saying that some things (and people) do and some things (and people) don't.

You don't get invited to the better parties, do you?

You've lead off with "I don't respect your beliefs", without even getting to know what those beliefs are in each individual case or discussing them at all.  I probably agree with you 100%, and even I'm unimpressed.

however

So, which is it?

however

[quote=Siege]

[quote=Witch]

personally, I think its much more fun if he trys to convert, I for one would love to see this

And you get to decide whether that respect or lack of it is appropriate in a social setting?

Seriously though, you cannot arbitrarily decide that not having basic human respect for another person's beliefs is perfectly fine and everyone around you has to abide by your sensibilities.

Religious beliefs, or lack of them, is so closely tied to a person's perception of themselves that insulting a person's beliefs is, in every practical way, tatamount to insulting the person.

Arrogance doesn't make you enlightened, it only makes you arrogant.

sounds like school is in session

Yeah with luck I might even learn some of what I'm spouting

Just tell me you've come in peace and the attitude you're holding, "How to Serve Man" isn't a cookbook!

LOL, I think Not

By the way Siege, welcome to Wondercafe.

Based on your last statement, your claim to being "receptive" is deceptive - although I'm relatively sure it's unintentionally so, and probably decieves you as much as it rings hollow with all of these other posters.

To be "receptive" one has to accept that there is potentially something to be "received" - something that's a bit suspect when your OP says "The point is to show all these unbearably superstitious people ..."

At this point that one would be wise beyond their years if they said something like "Whoa, sorry I mistook the cafe for the OK Corral. Let me back up and wipe my feet at the door. Waitress, a round of double double for everyone on me."

But other than that, nice to see someone with some enthusiasm, seige, so welcome to the cafe.

DAvid

Wow! It is rather obvious that I have not earned your respect. It has become apparent to me that the atheists who are commenting on this particular post seem to (in the words of Daniel Dennett) "believe in belief". I realize that I have made a profound (and rather foolish) mistake in that I chose a UCC-run website to talk about militant atheism and anti-theism. Obviously the wrong arena. So, if you don't mind, I will exit this website and leave these discussions to more 'civil' and 'respectful' individuals. You may think I am arrogant, young (aka 'doesn't know what he's talking about) and so forth and you are more than free to hold and vocalize those beliefs. In fact, you are perfectly free to think and say that you don't respect me and/or my opinions. I'm just tired of all this useless prostrating and pandering to other people's opinions. Why do we have to always be so respectful? I would rather be honestly disrespectful than deceitfully respectful. Au revoir!

lol

goodbye..........

I apologize to the last two posters, who I missed when writing the above. Thanks for welcoming me! Don't think I quite fit in though...

well in your case, your morals are just simply  a product of civilized human evolution , so really it would make no difference to you , now would it.

Actually seige, there are lots of times when the temperature gets turned up at the cafe as well.

In fact, you've just been subjected to several dozen criticisms.

If you'd like to have a donneybrook, I believe that the last youngster who took me on is still nursing his wounds - grin. And he was religious fundy.

You forgot honestly respectful, the third, and IMHO, most important option. That is the option to disagree with the point, without insulting the person. That is the essence of debate

That you cannot seem to even concieve of respectful disagrement indicates that you aren't ready for debate, just brawling.

If it's debate you're looking for, please feel free to moderate your tone and have a seat at the table.

If all you're looking for is verbal brawling.... then you may be right that this is not the place you need.

lol - well make up your mind son. If you want to be "honestly disrespectful" its a bit foolish to then moan because you haven't "earned their respect."

You came in swinging and hoped someone would swing back. They did, but they did it with more style than you're used to. So either step up your game or, as you seem to have chosen to do, go back down to the minors for a few seasons.

you meen its time to change my bandages

Gee for someone looking for a debate you should know that running doesn't accomplish anything? It's a tough crowd so come back prepared, but come back.