Well, orthodox sounds pretty daunting. But there's a wide range or types even among any one category of rabbis. I've known some unpleasant ones. I've known some who were delightful. So I wouldn't go to the supper with any preconceived notions. 

As a general rule, I'd suggest you lean toward asking questions and learning, really learning, rather than entering into debate. That's a good general rule in any case.

graeme

I suggest you ditch the conservative skirt and go with something shorter.  Flirt with him a little.  Learn some "A Rabbi and a Priest walk into..." jokes - the dirtier the better.

He's an uncle.  If you've won over his folks, that's about the most you can hope for.

Seems like to someone so orthodox, there's nothing you can do short of changing your religion, to please him, but hopefully making an effort without going to that extreme will at least make a good impression. I don't know about Judaism, but I would bet that a long skirt is better than a knee length one, and not much jewelry, and no cleavage whatsoever...maybe even tie your hair back neatly...

I agree with Chansen though in that he's only an Uncle, his opinion isn't going to make or break your future as a couple right? Don't worry too much. I hope the dinner goes well and you have a nice time.

Be polite but be yourself. I like the advice of using the opportunity to learn. Ask him questions about himself and really listen, but not to the point you avoid talking about yourself too. Btw. is your boyfriend reform? Most of the Jewish people I've known are. I think you'll be o.k. Best wishes.

Thanks everyone. You're right, he is just an uncle, but I don't want to add unnecessary drama or conflict to my relationship with my boyfriend's family in general.

I can't get a longer skirt, because I'm currently on vacation 1500km away with only one suitcase of clothing. And I'll be going straight from the plane to the dinner.

I think listening and asking questions is great advice. I tend to be a conversationalist and I get sucked into the temptations of debate too easily, so that is really great advice for me.

As for the Reform question, well here's how it is. My boyfriend's maternal grandparents were pretty secular. They didn't keep kosher, they took the kids (my boyfriend's mom, uncle and aunt) to a Reform Temple, and they had intellectual, critical debates about the religion. His grandfather really promoted critical thinking and more of an agnostic view of Judaism. Then, the grandfather died, when the mother, uncle and aunt were all teenagers. The uncle and aunt both went extremely religious in reaction to their father's death. The uncle became an Orthodox Rabbi, and the aunt married an Orthodox mohel. My boyfriend's mom married a man who was raised in a Conservative tradition, and my boyfriend's household keeps kosher and going to an Orthodox shul for the September holy days. My boyfriend himself is a bit of an agnostic. He doesn't believe in the Orthodox stuff. We considered the idea of me converting before, but once he found out that if I convert *he* has to become more observant, that killed the idea. So he's happy with me being me.

Hope that answered the question fully. If there's anymore advice, I'd love to hear it before the dinner tomorrow night! :)

Great post, Chansen. You have a future on the stage. If you can produce lines like that at will, I'll pay to listen.

Best wishes to modern girl. Just don't be too modern.

graeme

I was only half-joking.  Imagine what I could accomplish if I was trying to be funny.

New couples always worry so much about the approval of the family of their S.O.  Many never get the full acceptance of the parents.  To worry about an uncle, based on his conservative theology when the parents of the S.O. don't follow that lifestyle, seems overkill.  *If* I was Modern Girl, and *if* I had the legs to pull it off, I'd shorten the hemline and just be myself.  But first I'd have to shave my legs, and by the looks of it, with a hedge trimmer.

Modern Girl, I returned a few weeks ago from a trip to New York for my cousin's marriage into a Jewish family with some very Orthodox members.  Your outfit sounds fine, it shows respect without trying to be something you aren't.  Be polite, don't throw about the opinions until you get to know the uncle a little (you may actually find him quite open-minded despite his Orthodox observance, it does happen) and follow suit with your boyfriend and his parents for the customs you aren't familiar with - although it sounds like you already have some understanding of them.

Thanks Timebandit, your comment is really comforting. I think you're right when you said I want to appear respectful, without trying to be something I'm not.

Chansen, I really do appreciate your perspective. I can tell you look at things very differently from me, and it's important for me to weigh that side of it too. I know that I'll likely never been accepted by this guy, so that's not what I'm aiming for. This morning, I looked myself in the mirror and asked what exactly I am aiming for, and I guess it's this: if he's going to reject me, I don't want it to be on first impressions alone. I want to make myself presentable enough that he gives me a chance, and rejects me after he gets to know me.

Hi again Modern Girl

I'm guessing he'll be so busy talking to relatives that it won't be necessary for you to talk to him very much at all. Personally I don't like anyone firing questions at me....lol. I think it best to be quiet unless he talks to you first. Better to be safe rather than sorry. Chances are he's been to Israel and he'll love talking about Israel. It worked for me once; better than talking about Judiasm.

You'll do fine! Will he approve of you? Never.....you're not Jewish .......but that's all right. You're not marrying "him".

This is a true story. I once taught a girl whose family was not just orthodox but Hassidic. (ultra, ultra orthodox.) She was the only one I ever saw in a university since they usually marry right out of high school in a marriage arranged about age 14.

Her brother, she told me, was that night brining his girlfriend home to meet his parents.

She was French.

She was Catholic.

She was a go-go dancer.

She was pregnant.

I eagerly awaited the next report.

The couple arrived with the parents of the girl, too. There was a certain stiffness. Then, quite suddenly, the two mothers collapsed in tears into each other's arms.

graeme

I rarely post but log in to check wondermail.
First and foremost, do not judge or prejudge the uncle or his reaction based solely on his faith. Many people who are Catholic use birth control and many who are Baptist dance. My advice would be to toss the stereotypes and preconceived ideas.
Meet a person who is your boyfriend's uncle.
I have learned the difference between Haredi and modern Orthodox. They are not interchangeable, though the words are commonly used interchangeably.  I have learned about Hasids/Chasids. If I understand it, Hasids follow Rebbes and are thus individual groups and not homogeneous.
Orthodoxy is also not a single movement. There is also a difference between lowercase o orthodox and uppercase O Orthodox.
There is certainly diversity found in both orthodoxy and Orthodoxy.
Once upon a time I would have said orthodox or Orthodox meant Jewish fundy. I have learned otherwise having met many "kosher liberals".
Stevie even has a friend who is an Orthodox gay rabbi.
Finally, remember you are the girlfriend of the nephew, not the uncle. If the boyfriend is ok, that is all that really matters. =)

Good to see you reta Mae. Hi to Stevie. Wise words you offer.

I really like your thinking. Let them know the real you and decide from there. Believe it or not it's not that rare a thing. My family is S. Baptist. My sister dated and married a Roman Catholic guy. It was a bit tense because of that. It's mostly his grandparents who had a problem with it, not him or his parents. They're minimally observant. They got married in a non-denominational service at Duke Chapel. He did part of his schooling at Duke University. They now attend a Presbyterian church. It doesn't have to be a problem and I hope it goes very well for you. Best wishes.

Modern Girl, even if the uncle is orthodox, I'm sure that if you talk to him with respect, you'll aquit yourself well.

To steady your nerves, imagine you're chansen and need a hedge trimmer to shave your legs - that should keep a smile on your face!

In my defence, my first name is Craig, not Christine.  I'm allowed to have hairy legs.

You would be if you're a Christine, too - I know several women who've revolted against razor and wax and chosen to go au naturel. 

Okaaaaay, but my hairy legs are sexy.

How do you know?? If you need a hedge trimmer to shave them, I'm betting you can't even SEE your legs!

I take it on faith that my legs are sexy.  Jesus died for my shins.

Hah! I hate you smug, young people. He died for my chins.

graeme

Who? Who are these Baptists who you've seen dance? I want names. I'll report them to head office.

Baptist Head Office is too busy chasing down reports of closet homosexuals to be concerned with reports of dancing.  Now, if this was same sex dancing, they'll look into it.

Hi ModernGirl ...hope your dinner went well ... I'm curious to hear about it.  I wrote a message here, just after graeme's first one ... but it was during that weird time frame when posts were doing disappearing acts!  Hoping to hear more.  C.

Jae, you don't understand. Baptist dance is a form of dance in which  the dancers are in separate rooms and cannot see each other. It's actually a form of birth control - and far more effective than the Catholic ones which may explain why the world still has more Catholics than Baptists.

graeme

LOL@graeme

"Jesus died for my shins," whoa, I laughed and then snorted that was so funny.

The good news is that the Rabbi was really warm and welcoming, a didn't seem to have too much of a problem with me. This could be perhaps because I sat at the other end of the table and was completely overwhelmed with shyness and barely said a word the entire night.

The bad news is that I had no idea what I was doing, or what to expect next, so I kept fumbling things up. Turned off the running water, when you're not allowed to turn it on during Sabbath, said something to my boyfriend when I was supposed to be silent because the challah was being cut, and got completely lost during the "benching" ritual at the end of the night. Oy. The other bad news is that my boyfriend revealed that he's not sure how religious he wants to be someday, and might consider observing the Sabbath with the full Friday night shabang like that. I don't know if I could do 52 of those a year... :S

The other good news is that my boyfriend is a wonderful person, and we both recognize that we have very different outlooks on this topic and we need to respect each other. Although these differences can sometimes make it hard, our shared values and beliefs in other areas help assure us that the relationship is more than worth pursuing and is in fact something we are both willing to make sacrfices for.

Thanks for the update!  All things considered, sounds like things went pretty well!   I hope we'll hear more from you on other threads here too ... you've got such diverse interests, from what I read on your blog.   Shalom.

I'm glad it went reasonably well and I'm sure the family will make plenty of grace allowances for a gentile. I wish you the best in your continuing relationship.

I laughed, too. Which just goes to prove "Jesus died for our grins." (Well, "abundant life" - it sort of means the same thing, doesn't it?)

I'm glad you got on okay with the Rabbi.

Sounds as though it went even better than you seem to think. Generally, I've found that religious Jews don't expect gentiles to be familiar with their customs, and they find the occasional gaffe more amusing than annoying. They are also flattered when you show interest in their customs.

As for a life of following the Friday evening rituals - not a bad idea. There's a value in ritual and understanding it. Your boyfriend may well and happily join in on a Christian festival like Christmas. Indeed, very many do - though some disguising Christian practices as Khanukah. As you come to understanding some Jewish ritual, you may find yourself very comfortable with it.

graeme

Thanks, I appreciate the compliment.  Just to be sure, I had to Google it.  Turns out, I wasn't the first to come up with that line.  Bummer.

I'm glad you got along so well, with a couple minor items.  If you turned off the water, does that mean it was running all Sabbath?  They can leave it running, but not turn it on?  I love to learn these new religious observances.  I took communion at some wedding because, hey, everybody was doing it, and I felt like a snack.  Only later do I find out that I apparently "ate" the host, though I'm not sure which is worse - not eating the host, or taking communion when you haven't been baptized and don't believe any of it in the first place.

There is an injunction against working on the Sabbath. And it can lead to some bizarre practices among the very strict. There are those who will no open a fridge door because that turns on the light, and turning on a light is work. There are those, no kidding, who tear up toilet paper in advance. There are those who will not press an elevator button.

There is a joke about Jews who hire a gentile to do such work for them. I have no idea whether there is any truth to it at all. But I once lived in an apartment building whose whole population - except for me - was Jewish. The joke was that i was the hired one, the Sabbath goy.

For the strict, it is also forbidden to drive a car to synagogue. You have to walk. I suppose that explains the long period of wandering in the desert. Jehovah didn't like cars.

It also explains why you can often have trouble finding a place to park when you are, say, two blocks from a synagogue.

graeme

Hi Modern Girl,

I've just found your post and maybe I can answer some of your questions. I grew up secular, but have gravitated more and more towards my religion, to the point where I am now almost fully Sabbath observant.

Graeme is absolutely right (yes, graeme, you can keep this and feel free to trot it out any time in the future), we don't switch on lights, we don't drive cars and yes, we do even pre-tear the toilet paper (although I prefer to use tissues). The reason for all this is that any form of work is prohibited during the Sabbath. Tearing is separating, which is like winnowing your crop, which is work - therefore, no tearing.

There's an easy way around the refrigerator problem: simply remove the light bulb before sundown Friday and replace it after the first few stars come out on Saturday. And yes, there is such a thing as a Shabbos goy - a non-Jew who is asked to start a fire, switch on a light and so on. We try to manage without doing this kind of thing, though.

I haven't heard about not being able to turn on running water? In fact, people at my synagogue wash their hands immediately upon arriving, turing the tap on and off. Could it be the hot water tap that was running? The logic here is that if you use hot water, you cause the hot water heater to start up - and that's work. Using electricity is like lighting a fire which is ... yup, work.

If all this sounds crazy and incredibly restrictive, it's actually surprisingly liberating. I don't know what you do during the week, but my occupation means that I'm at the constant mercy of the phone and email. I could have plans made for this afternoon and one call or one email message can change everything. I have to drop my plans to go shopping, pick up my daughter or whatever and attend to a client at a moment's notice. But come sundown Friday, I know with absolute certainty that nothing can interrupt me. I leave the everyday world and enter a sacred time and place for some 25 hours. Walking to synagogue, I watch the cars flying past, and I'm so grateful that I'm not part of the mad rush. It's truly invigorating. 

People often muse over the reasons for the incredible survival of the Jewish people. As one sage put it: "More than the Jews have kept the Sabbath, the Sabbath has kept the Jews."

Anyway, as others have suggested, grab this opportunity to learn! Rabbis know so much - and I think  your boyfriend would probably be just as amazed as you to discover  how many answers Judaism has to the mysteries of life.

Whatever happens, welcome to the Tribe!

There really is a place for ritual. It's not just a meaningless routine.

That's not unique to Judiasm. Boston got the name "bean town" because the pilgrims would not cook on what they called the Sabbath (Sunday for them). What they did was to fix a double amount of beans on Saturday and eat them cold on Sunday, ergo "bean town".

now, there is a gem of information. I plan to keep that one. Great stuff. I used to keep a pile of those to use on radio. I wish I had known that one at the time.

jon, it's called "cholent". Delicious!

just to return to modern girl for a moment - there really is a value to ritual, and I have often seen it in Judaism. It is not so much a break from the secular world as it is a blending of the the secular and the sacred. For example, I was often invited to speak at synagogue breakfasts. These were meetings held in the synagogue on sunday morning. They brought the world into the synagogue, but into a setting which blended the world with the faith.

These were always well attended. Indeed, I remember a rabbi ruefully telling me that breakfast drew more than twice as many people than the previous day's service. What struck me most about it, though, was the sense - which I can't explain very well - probably because I don't understand it very well - of the secular and the spiritual coming together.

There is a unity there which I would dearly love to see in our churches.

graeme

Thanks for all the wonderful comments again everyone! I'm pretty family with the lights and driving and work restrictions on the Sabbath. I did hear of taking the lightbulb out of the fridge before too. The water felt cold to me, but it might have been the hot water that just wasn't warmed up yet. Either way, the Rabbi was next in line, and didn't turn the tap back on - he picked up a measuring cup at the bottom of the sink (that had filled with the water that had passed through my hands and my boyfriend's hands) and instead washed his hands with that water.

I've been dating my boyfriend for almost 2 years, and I've learned quite a bit about the Jewish holidays, and I do appreciate the Sabbath as a holiday. I respect it's importance....but I'm not sure if I would want to observe it's importance in that way. I already have a secular Friday night dinner with my boyfriend's family everyweek, and from 5pm on my cell phone is turned off. You're right, that is liberating. I also now that none of my colleagues expect anything from me. However, I'm not Jewish, and I attend a Unitarian Universalist Congregation on Sundays. Plus, I'm a PhD student. I don't think my workload would allow me to take Friday nights, Saturday and Sunday morning off. So I compromise. I take Friday nights and Sunday mornings off, and that's enough of a weekly rest for me :)

There's other aspects to the Sabbath observance that I just don't find meaningful for me. I'm starting to learning Hebrew (at a very very very slow pace) but the prayers in Hebrew go way to fast to have any meaning for me. The Rabbi told me what the 2 prayers we said meant - one is welcoming the angels, the second is thanking and honoring women. I don't believe in angels, so even if I knew Hebrew, I probably wouldn't like the first prayer. So, I get that some of this stuff might mean a lot to my boyfriend, but it just doesn't hold the same meaning for me.

Anyway, the Rabbi's family are in town until tomorrow. I just found out I'll be having dinner with them again - in two hours. I asked my boyfriend if I should wear a skirt again, I know the Rabbi's wife will be wearing one, but given that it's not Friday and I'm a gentile I know I won't be expected to. However, I think I want make a good impression, not just merely meet expectations.

If anyone is interested in how the second dinner with the Rabbi went, I just put a summary up on my blog, here:

http://www.sinnersaintshiksa.blogspot.com

Your reaction to the right wing, left wing stuff was wise. These terms really refer to seating arrangements in the early days of government in the French republic. They have no meaning today. And few people who confidently throw those terms around have any clear idea what they mean by them. They simply stick the terms on ideas or people, conjuring up caricatures in their own heads of what the terms mean. It's like the terms liberal and conservative. Not one person in a thousand has the faintest idea what either of those words mean. But they use them all the time, and with passion.

There is no point in arguing or even discussing such things with people who combine  high passion with a complete ignorance of what their words mean. Best just to smile and nod.

My favourite has been a newspaper report on those in Russia who still believe in communism. They are referred to here and in Russia as right wingers - as are the followers of Sarah Pailin in the US. I don't know what caricatures are in the minds of people who talk like that. But I do think their understanding of the terms is so perverse that discussion with them would be like having tea with the Mad Hatter.