Can you hear me singing ."I'm a believer." But the difference for most of us and myself in particular is that I believe in God but I will let you walk your own path even if it is as a non-believer. As long as you respect those around you who are different than you. I have no great passion to change you or Moslems or Hindus or Wiccans to my way of thinking and I would hope that that is how you would treat us.

If we respect each other's faith or non-faith and if we treat our neighbours as self, I would be happy to have you as friend.

thanks crazy heart, I am open to friendship with people of faith, and I have some friends of different faiths.  I think mutual respect for each other is important, espeicially in a secular society, and I welcome those that are differrent from me.

Hi RonVB - yes, this site is open to all, and we have a number of non-Christians (Muslems, Hindus, Wiccans, and moderate Athiests) who join in the discussions.  We learn from them, and perhaps they learn from us.

We also have fundalmentalist Christians and fundalmentalist Athiests who already know all there is to know - they are right and all the rest of us are wrong.  It is difficult, but not impossible, to hold a conversation with some of them.

Hi Ron,

right up to the poinit in your story where you married a fundamentalist woman, I think your story is typical of teens in North america.

Push back against the religion of the parents

strike out on your own

for me, by the time i was in my 20's I realised that I did still have those beliefs, but to be celebrated and handled in my way, not my parents way.

I went and found a church and now I am a faith believing person. 

the extremes of any faith system; whether those are nutty christians, muslems, sihkks, aetheists........  It's the nutty fundamentalists that are the problem.  In all groups they are the vocal ones that give every group a bad rep.

hopefully, over time the pendulum will swing back and those who are moderate and open to understanding will takek back the stage from those groups.

I was a cradle atheist--brought up as one by atheist parents.  When I was about 45 I decided to become a Christian, or at least try.  I believing in God after a fashion, but it's uphill work.  But the music is nice, and the ideas.   Religion is "poetry plus", not "science minus".  I read that in a Marcus Borg book, but I think he was quoting someone else. 

Hi RonVB

Thank you for posting your background. I found it quite interesting.

I'm a quasi-Christian. I believe some of it and not the rest. I see the Bible as the biggest impedament to Christianity. Many refuse to think beyond the 2000 and 3000 year old words embedded for all eternity between its covers.

I know I can tend to fall into the fundamentalist atheist camp at times, but I don't want to be closed minded.  I want to be open to others opinions and ideals.  I know I am not right on all my views, and that's why I came to this site.  To try to get some more understanding.  I honestly think it is important to be open to others who are different.=, plus how can I teach my kids to be open minded if I am not, right?

Hi Ron,

I was raised atheist, though my parents had a christian background themselves so the culture was still prevelent in what is taboo and what hollidays we celebrated. SO I didn't hear much about Jesus til my grandmother overseas died and my parents flew over there to deal with the estate, and left me with my Evangelical Aunt for two weeks. SHe tried to make me a christian, and the stuff they showed in her big huge church really scared me. Videos of Jesus being whipped and crucified. Of cource I felt empathy for that poor suffering man. I felt really weird though that they all said it was real, and that if I cared I should give my soul to him. Well what could I do as a little girl afraid and without my parents, in strange and frightening surroudnings? I said I would, and I ticked the box on the leaflet from the back of the chair infront of me that I had accepted Jesus that day, though I felt very strange and twisted inside. When I got home and Mom and Dad were back I felt sick about the whole thing and prayed to cancel my subscription with the phoney god I didn't really think was real! But that was the only way I could get myself off the hook. I learned to be true to myself, and that religion was dangerous and creepy. If Mom and Dad had talked about it with me earlier instead of letting me be uneducated, things would have been different. The same goes for sex and drugs, kids need to be educated. SO that was my main big experience with religion.

ANother two times I was sent to christian kids' camps (cause Mom and Dad couldn't find atheist ones and they thought it wouldn't do me any harm anyway) and that was also really uncomfortable. Praying three times a day, talks about pearly gates and streets paved with gold and beautiful dead people in white with wings, and that time at the blackborad when the priest showed us our life on earth as a dot and life with Jesus as an unending line and that we wanted to be darn sure we would be with Jesus and not in Hell instead, and that that's what happened to bad little children who didn't believe in Jesus. Not to mention the horrid green glop we had to eat or go hungry, and all the chritian kids around me who believed in all of this. Oh it was awful. I will never do that to my kid. A good enough reason for anyone to be an atheist eh! Mom said she hadn't known it would be like that and she appologized to me and gave me a nice bowl of chicken noodle soup and a hug.

Later on when I was 16 I discovered that pagan was what I was, then when I had a child I shed much of that and returned to my older atheist viewpoint, but with mysticism and revelation added in from my learning in paganism and history, mysteries of the unknown, and world religions.

I forgave my Aunt years later, in my heart if not verbally. And now, after all these years, she has loosened up her religion, a very healthy turn for her and I am so glad.

Raised Catholic, I became an atheist when I was like 9 or so, because Christians are hypocrites and church is stupid. My mom said I had to go to church till 18. She got over it. I became a dick about the atheist thing as a reaction to the way christians treated me. I realized in grade 6 that I'm gay. It wasn't christians that I could turn to. For a while it wasn't anyone. Of course I thought Christianity was evil and hypocritical. It was all I ever knew.

Anyways that's not the end of the story. I made it to 19 and despite insurmountable rejection I started feeling spiritual I guess. So I turned to the gayest United Church I could find. The UCC is the exact opposite of the christians I've always known. And it's like, I always had an idea in my head of what Christians are sposed to be like, humble and accepting and kind and nonjudgemental and loving, and that's what they're like. And that's what I want to be like. I felt safe. And for once I'm respected, treated as an equal, entitled to disagree and people really care what I have to say. I'm not a heretic anymore. That or we all are .

Since I was a small child, I picked up on the ambiguity between my parents' encouragement of scholastic excellence (both of them teachers) and their Biblical teaching. It made no sense that they could teach me about dinosaurs one day and the next tell me that God put the bones there to test our faith. I knew they couldn't really believe that, and I always felt embarassed for anyone who said something out loud about their "faith", including myself, when so coerced. I thought it was all silly, but also had that subconscious reward/punishment for heaven/hell conditioning, like most children, so I still self-identified as Christian.

As I learned more science and philosophy throughout high school, college, graduate school, and beyond, I found God less necessary to explain anything. As I formed new communities and fellowships outside of my church, I found religion less necessary for social well-being. As I learned how to be a better person through my life experience, I found that church and morality were not related at all. As I became less selfish and found more happiness in the company and service of others, the hope for a reward and fear of punishment after death dissolved.

It happened over a very long period of time, practically my entire life. Maybe ten solid years of transition. I try to remember this and not get flustered over where other people are at "spiritually", but I also keep in mind that during those ten years not ONE single person spoke up ONCE to challenge me. In this sense, I feel that the undeserved "respect" of religious views did me a disservice by protecting me without my consent, hindering my personal growth and my relationship to the world and others. I am therefore morally bound to not allow others the same unsolicited protection.

I just kind of found that my questions, and the answers I was finding, pushed in directions that just didn't fit in a traditional religious environment. There was no sudden break or insight that led me away from Christianity, just the growing realization that the truth was too big for one rather limited tradition to contain. Science, philosophy, other faiths, all had meaning for me. I did go unchurched for a while (save for getting married in the family church where I grew up) but was already flirting with UU'ism.  Eventually, I decided that UU'ism seemed to provide the theological breathing room that I needed while still giving me the shared spiritual values of a church, so here I am. That said, I can see that the more progressive arm of the UCC (e.g. people like Gretta Vosper) could probably accomodate someone like me. I just don't know if any UCC churches fit that bill (althought the two I've tried are certainly much more progressive than the family church that I left 20 years ago). I don't self-identify as atheist, so I may not be part of your target audience, RonVB, but I am certainly a non-believer from the standpoint of traditional Christianity, so there you go.

Kinst - I love your post - not just because you espouse the virtues of the UCC as I also experience them, but mostly because you used the term "the gayest United Church" which assumes of course that all United Churches are to some extent "gay" - which is just about one of the best compliments a church can get I think

I was born Lutheran, with atheistic leanings starting to develop shortly after I was confirmed at age 14. At age 24 I became a full blown atheist and left the church.

Due to a severe personal crisis at age 42, I began to dabble in Zen Buddhism, practiced Zen meditation, had numerous smaller satoris, and, after a winter spent almost entirely in meditation and contemplation, had a mind-blowing and thoroughly transformative mystical peak experience that turned my life around.

Now I'm happily churched with the UCC, as sort of a Zen Christian.

What a bizarre thing to say. Here I thought everyone was born atheist.

Just a figure of speech, Ergo.

We become "Lutheran" or "Atheist" not at birth but later in life. I became Lutheran first, and then atheist, and then neither/either.

Thus, I'm with you atheists, and with the religionists—and don't tell me I can't be both!

I'm mad enough to be both. In-sane, as Atheisto said.

Kinst, I am learning that the United Church is more progressive.  I have a co-worker who is a part time united minister, and I always thought it was just him that was more open minded than his church.  But I think it is the UCC as a whole that is more progressive.  (BTW I still have a bit of problem with thinking of christians as progressive, but that's my bias). 

Elanorgold, I felt the same things as a kid when I had to do confession, or go up for communion.  I thought those little wafers the priest gave us tasted like crap and did not want to go up for anymore. 

That's a fact jack. :) 

Children can't be Christian, Muslim, Hindu - they can only be the child of a christian, muslim, hindu. The difference is, they can certianly be human, and until otherwise instructed, they don't believe in what they can't see.

Personally - my parents were raised Christian - of some moderate denomination or another - but felt that on a fundamental level, the church was getting the message wrong. They vowed to raise their children in an open environment, instilling strong values and a positive ethical framework to use independent of them. They challenged us to always question everything - much to their chagrin when chore time came. In any event, the result was a few children who attributed their achievments to their own ability and the support of their very human parens - and accepted their failures as opportunities to grow - again, with the support of their siblings and parents. The need for a supernatural being never materialized - the support structure we needed was always there.

Hi Ron:

In the United Church they allow heretics like me to conduct services. In fact, I'll be conducting one this coming Sunday.

Proudly United,

Arminius

Doesn't that mean we are all born agnostic, not atheistic?

We'll convince you.

Unless my understanding is completely skewed - no. Agnostics theoretically feel that as there is no evidence for a particular deity, or against a particular deity, therefore they choose to "sit on the fence" as the only reasonable position to take. As a child has not been instructed on the existence of a particular deity - they can't yet be agnostic. They can however be atheist - as there is no evidence for the child to absorb - they must by default be a non-believer. Essentially everyone is a non-believer untl they're either instructed - or admittedly - find an inner spirituality that links them with something greater. As this inner-spirituality seems to differ so profoundly between judeo-christians and lets say buddhists or confucsianists... and even between judeo-christians - I'm hardpressed to say a child is agnostic at birth - as so many children grow into adults in societies without the acknowledgement of a deity.

No, we are born without concepts. We just experience reality as it really is, not as we think it is.

Later on in life, concepts get drummed into our minds, and we delude ourselves into believing that we experience what we conceptualize. That's why it is so important to re-capture the pure experience of babyhood every now and then.

Is that why you have a baby as your avatar, cate?

I think it comes down to definitions. My understanding of the atheist position is that there are two camps - one that says atheism is the position that God does not exist (which in terms of linguistics should really be called anti-theism) and another which says simply there is no reason to believe in God and therefore they are indifferent to the issue (linguistically, a-theism).

However, I would say that recent efforts among high-profile atheists have been targetted at forwarding the former definition of atheism. Under that former definition, I don't believe babies can be born atheistic. Under that definition, as far as newborns are concerned, if I am forced to choose between atheist (a firm belief there is no God) and agnosticim (a more middle of the road 'who knows'? kind of approach), then I would have to go with Agnostics. 

Cate - we have this discussion going in the "Atheism and Unbelief" forum if you'd like to pop over and add your thoughts there. I think we're both highjacking this thread. :P

Will do goodskeptic. I had noticed a bit of a crossover with that thread as well.

Arminius - I wish I had such altruistic reasons for my baby avatar, but I'm afraid it's purely selfish - I'm a proud mama, and that there is my little guy when he was just 4 months old and clearly, the most adorable creation God has ever planted on the Earth

Hi cate:

I totally agree: he is the most adorable creation. Congratulations!

I think the reason so many atheists take such a harsh view on Religion is because it's forced upon them.  And no one likes when things are forced upon them.  I'm so greatful that Islam has a creed of "There is no compulsion in Religion".  I think that if all religions, (including all Muslims) and non-religions followed that creed, the world would be a lot more tolerant, and a lot less extreme.

As-Salaamu Alaikum

-Omni

That's a fact jack. :) 

The difference is, they can certianly be human, and until otherwise instructed, they don't believe in what they can't see.

Huh?   My children, and now my grandchildren, from the time they were able to talk believed in things that they couldn't see.  Three out of four of them had an imaginary friend.  All of them talked to and apparently received answers from their favourite stuffed animal.  They also seemed very much intuned with the unexplained.  They may not be Christians, Jews, Hindus, etc. but they do believe in many things that they cannot understand, articulate, or explain.

In fact, I think that children are very spiritual creatures and probably more in touch with the Holy than most adults.

I was taken to a Billy Graham rally in New Zealand when I was about 14.

I saw scary hysteria and demagoguery that reminded me strikingly of newsreels of Hitler rallies. It was the mob mind and control freakery I found really sick, really repugnant and totally ugly.

I discovered my spirituality about seven years later and that grew me into a faith that's a little odd but which I name as "Christian with questions". But I still loathe literalism, fascism, mind control and mob strategies in Christianity and anywhere else. The Christ I know was all about freeing us from that kind of bullshit, setting us on our own paths of love towards truth (which i understand as a life process, a way of living, not as a set of credal statements).

Hi RonVB.  I was raised in the UCCAN.  I attended just about every Sunday, year-round.  And yet, beyond community, I cannot tell you the content of much of what I learned.  I knew some of the bible stories and knew the basic concepts about Jesus.  As I entered university I dabbled in evangelical Anglicanism because I thought that this might be the "right path".  However it never seemed to work for me. 

At age 25, I moved back to my hometown and started attending the church of my youth again.  After a few years, a new minister was called.  He was (is) a progressive christian and gave my husband a book by John Shelby Spong (probably Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism).  I don't think that my husband ever read it but I certainly did.  Suddenly that theisitc god that much of the church/media was presenting was more readily rejected.  It was eye-opening for me.  I didn't have to believe in a literal reading of the bible and this was a start.  Over a few years I gradually started peeling away the layers of the onion and eventually was left with the core values that I feel are important.  I no longer believe in a theistic concept of god (and don't use the word), don't believe that the bible should be held higher than any other source of wisdom, don't believe that Jesus is God, etc.  However I do believe that there is sacredness in the world, in life and in wisdom.  I am still a member of the UCCAN but now in a progressive christian community (not the one of my youth)...cms

heh, travelled through that atheist teen angst, agnostic 20ish when i realized I didn't know everything...

I attended church with my husband, in the united church..and realized that all my questions, frustrations, difficulties with the bible and the Christian faith (as i understood it at 13)....were shared by many many folks.

What I have learned over the years, and have come to value are the people who have come together with common values.

Those who I admire who come from United Church families that take their faith seriously, and do so much for the world.  Who look at the scriptures with respect, but do not take them literally. Who keep up with current theological studies.

The time taken to teach children Sunday after Sunday about living in the world in a fair and just manner, from dialogues on fair trade to water to consumption to respecting others and ourselves. Using the bible studies as a launching point into those dialogues.  The time taken as adults to struggle with complexities of life...and arguing at times. 

A physical space where transgender folk meet in safety & welcome in a mid-size s. ontario city. A space where AA meets, and ESL is offered.  Where groups of all sizes and shapes are welcome.

A worship space where people come as couples and are welcomed as they are.  A place where we struggle with those whose mental health issues cause conflict in the community,yet, we recognize it is only one facet of who they are, and we love them..

A community of folks who were instrumental in out of the cold, and then a local shelter that find their call to action from a sunday service

Folks who work tirelessly for s. africa, and have volunteered to teach in schools, assisting local folks in whatever project was called for, providing money, support and talents to make life better and for their to be hope...whether it be soup kitchens, creche, schools, tuitions, soup, a sewing group, micro-loans.

Folks who visit those who are sick or tired...and care for them time & time again, giving a hand in doing work or just being a friend. 

Each year, I am thankful for what I have had the opportunity to see, and the difference it has made in my & my families life. 

Not through force, but through welcome.

Not through brain-washing, but through an offer to engage one's mind in analysis which is not separate from the world

Agreed - I issued a blanket statement that was clearly incorrect. Thanks for pointing that out. To revise: until otherwise instructed, children have no notion of God or anything larger/related - like the bible, the koran or the torah.

Well - we'll revise that statement from "in fact" and call it "in your opinion" and leave it at that. Fair? 

Pinga - I'm sure it wasn't intentional, but do you have any idea how incredibly condescending and offensive the above comment is? To illustrate: "I went through the ignorant, self-delusional childhood dimentia phase that was religion until I came to the age of reason...."

I realize that to openly ridicule those that would affiliate with atheists has traditionally been considered politically acceptable - unless you're open to reciprocal ridicule - I will kindly ask that you take a more concerted effort to avoid such condescending remarks in the future.

Heh, it was, what it was...and yes, it probably does sound obnoxious....and I was....very obnoxious in my teen years.

Had I found this site, I would have been probably the most outspoken atheist knowing all the answers ....at the ripe old age of 13.

Given that my Christian education was sparse at best, my arguments would have been pulled from other websites or books written by people who had similair opinions as I did and so their opinion supported mine. (Note: no websites back in my day..but in this example I am suggesting how I would have behaved had I been 13 now)

When I got older, I shifted that opinion recognizing that the decision that I had made at 13 were done based on little education or study...so i opened a window...

I still am seeking understanding and growing in various ways.

(and yes, I see no problem with the statement you made...after all, learning never stops. anything, beyond simple mechanical thing such as walking, which is held to that which we learned in childhood is likely missing depth.)

Actually, based on the patterns in neurological development in children, this makes sense. Spirituality is an emotionally-driven phenominon and emotions are controlled by a section of the brain called the limbic system, which develops very quickly (not sure exactly how long it takes but I'd guess it's done by age 12). The rational section of our brain which is the cortex takes much longer to develop (18-30 years, depending on how much you use it when you're a kid). One (of many) functions of the cortex is suppression of emotions (eg. self-control and self-discipline), which kids don't have a lot of when they are young, so I would imagine that the reason that they would be more spiritual would be because they do not repress their emotions as effectively as adults.

KR79,

You might want to pick up last week's, New Scientist (17 Feb). Feature article is on kids being hard wired to believe in supernatural explanations of things and 'god', without adult intervention, from day one.

Supports what you're saying.

It's social science, but still makes interesting reading.

That is totally plausible, scientifically. Children's persistent 'imaginary friends' grow up to be adults' persistent gods.

Hi Mike:

It probably will not surprise you to hear that Hitler was a mystic. He subscribed to the mystical magazine Ostatra, dabbled in the occult, and even had a mystical experience in front of the Crown Jewels of the House of Hapsburg, which were on display, together with the Spear of Longinus, at the museum of the Hofburg in Vienna.

Wit his mystical fervor Hitler hynotized and mesmerized the masses. The rest is one of the saddest chapters in human history.

What can we learn from that?

Mystical experience alone does not mean much, we also need our traditional wisdom schools.

Please elaborate,  "traditional wisdom schools" for us Arminius.

Ah, that's a tough one.

To put it simply and bluntly, with apologies all around, the traditional Judeo/Christian mystical wisdom school without the "mumbo-jumbo"—as Atheisto calls it—as well as Taoism, Bramanism, Zen Buddhism, some schools of Sufism, and probably a few others I can't think of right now. I would consider all of those "traditional wisdom schools."

There is a fine line separating mysticism from madness. One is supranormalcy, the other is subnormalcy, and the two often look alike, and the average person can't tell them apart.

The long standing tradtional schools of mysticism, though, have figured out how to differentiate between the two, and how to keep their supranormal mystics from riding the "high horse," which is always the greatest temptation for highly evolved mystics.

I went to see Benny Hinn with my ex-wife because I had to witness the insanity for myself.  And it was just like you said....  he had the choir singing all these songs for god, and it went on for a while.  Then finally when he went ot do the healings oh man.....  IT was quite a site.  Although I was an adult at this time, I was pretty freaked out by it.  For anyone who hasn't seen the evangelicals up close and personal, go to one of their churches and check it out.  You will never forget it.

Arminius

Mystical experience means nothing without some sort of context. I don't get your point. Spirituality/mysticism without some sort of healthy, directing context is incredibly dangerous.

It is even more dangerous when it its contexts are crap: Billy Graham was clearly crap from where I was standing. Hitler ditto.

But the denial of spirituality is walking dead, zombie stuff. What I've seen of popular culture looks like zombie-dancing to me.

I have grown very tired of BS. Life is what's real. Live it.

Well, Mike, that was my point: Mystical experience outside the traditional wisdom schools is dangerous. Spockis asked me to elaborate what I mean by "traditional wisdom schools," and I did.

Hmm, creepy. Seems to me the best way to avoid getting snookered in to the rantings of highly evolved mystics leading freaky cults and brainwashed countries is to keep your head stabley anchored with reason and common sence. Sad that humanity has a penchant for following people who look like they know what they're talking about, but they're actually just whacked! I say good schooling for reason and wisdom doesn't involve religion at all, except as a warning of past attocities. Religion can only do good when tempered by logic. Look at the Dali Lama, one of the finest people alive today, a locical, wise, spiritual man doing a lot of good, and not looking to be worshiped.

Killer Rabbit, I agree. Babies are born pretty mystical. Thanks for the suportive facts.

Yes, Elanorgold, the Dalai Lama is not looking to be worshiped, but nevertheless permits it. Although I admire his wisdom, I don't admire that.

However, I must say, to his credit, that he resents being worshiped by non-Tibetans. But he permits it by Tibetans. Perhaps, as the spiritual leader of the Tibetan Buddhists, he has no choice.

Hey Ron, I've found the same. I've actually found it on a lot of sites, but this one appears to be a little different (Canadian flavour, eh?). I've been wanting to write an article for some time now about the pragmatic problems with the so-called "New Atheism," especially in the Dawkinsesque fashion. While I respect the man's science, he does about as much to destroy the ideas he promotes as he does build them up. On one hand he is an amazing evolutionary biologist, on the other he is so vehement in setting out to show that evolution leads to atheism that it has caused fundamentalists and evangelicals to entrench even moreso in their creationist beliefs, which is further robbing our children of credible scientific learning.

Now, done with the rant.

I grew up in an evangelical family in the Vancouver-Lower Mainland area. My parents fully believed that everything they did they did for God, whether it is was in their family or at work. They would lead a missions trip to some exotic locale every year for two years - when I was older, I would join them.

Now whether there is such a thing as a "second-generation" evangelical, it is becoming increasingly harder to say. One of the main tenets of evangelicalism is the conversion experience. However, evangelical parents are told by the church and their conscience to raise their children to be God-fearing and Christ-like. It is hard to have a conversion experience if you don't know anything else. I grew up a devout evangelical Christian within the Mennonite tradition - a somewhat more conservatively stoic breed of Christian nowadays.

Throughout high school I had mostly non-Christian friends who a attempted to "witness" to ("planting seeds" is generally what "failed" attempts are considered). I was very much a good-goody, until that fateful senior year that this conservative (in all senses of the word) met and fell in love with a non-Christian, socialist-leaning, agnostic girl. We both loved to debate which fueled our friendship and relationship. My belief, however, was much more entrenched than anything she had experienced, but she appreciated my passion as well as the way I did not puch myself on others (ie "being preachy").

The relationship was not to be, but it instilled a greater passion in me for evangelicalism and for gaining a better foundation for my faith. I decided to reject my previously chosen career path of politics and business for the ministry and went to Bible college. To make a long story a little bit shorter, it was here that I lost my faith. I went to gain foundations, devotion, and a knowledge of Christian apologetics. It was here that I found fruitcake discipline, anti-intellectualism, deeply-rooted moralism, and a general disregard for humanity itself. Most importantly, it was where I found liberal Christianity through two instructors which would, of course, lead to my de-conversion to agnosticism.

The problem with my upbringing is that it said if the Bible is not inerrant or infallible, what use is there for it? It said that non-evangelicals (or non conservative Protestants) are nothing but nominal Christians. With this powerfully engrained into me, what choice do I have when I reject conservative Christianity? What base do I have to hold to a liberal version of the Christian message when I could do the same with any religious system? Why add more mental gymnastics?

My personal beliefs were founded mainly by my 7th and 8th grade Science teacher. Not directly of course. It was the actual subjects we were learning that began my thoughts on the subject.

First, lets go back a bit farther.

As a kid, I stopped going to Church when I was about 5. The reason being, I was being bullied at Church, and it made it completely intolerable, so my parents gave me the choice to stop.

That, was the first time that I believe I really thought about religion at all. From that point, my beliefs lay untouched for about 7 or 8 years.

Back to the 7th grade Science teacher.

In my Science class, we began to learn about Space, Planets, a little about the Big Bang Theory, and a few other things. All of these got my mind going.

In the end, nobody really came up to me and said "BE THIS WAY." It was really my choice. My choice was based on the information I received, and I chose the most logical answer to me. I always struggled with just generally having "Faith" which could have also been a factor.

There's a few other stories that sort of turned me away from being part of an Organized Religion, but I'll leave them out. Some of them are less than appropriate, and I'm not here to offend anyone.

Hi X:

What, you quit going to church when you were five? That's what they call early childhood agnosticism, eh?

You sound young , Xelda, and you sound like an independent, free thinker. Keep your mind going and expore the real world. There are many, many people out here, just like you.

And that is true...and there are many who also wandered  along that path, then wandered over to the United Church of Canada or other progressive church paths.

When you do your wandering realize that what you experienced when you were a child...was a child's version of God. 

If you're going to be open, then be fully open, and be willing to engage in dialogue with those who say "heh, there is something worth talking about here"