For me it isn't so much Nature as God but how does nature REVEAL the holy.

Well, I think that the main reason why nature doesn't experience duality and suffering like we do is because it hasn't evolved a big enough brain yet.  It's time will come....  

Our real challenge as human beings, I think, is not how to revert to pre-dualistic but how to move forward to post-dualistic, or trans-dualistic.   The pre-dualistic human beings that I've known in my life, though they didn't experience our usual kinds of neurotic suffering, didn't make the world a better place. On the contrary... I wouldn't want to meet up with any of them in a dark alley. They were not bodhisattvas if you know what I mean.

Human brains are good. They are part of what gives us the possibility of awakening spiritually.

Josh, for more on that... check out my post on Ken Wilber, or google "pre trans fallacy"..

Yes you are absolutely correct Gord.  Something I recently posted in another topic said a similar thing:

"Nature is God manifested in form, it is how we (as humans) percieve God.  All that we sense is God, but form is merely an illusion.  It is what Buddha calls Maya. "

Nature does reveal the holy to us in form, though to point at a flower and say "that is God" could be confusing to many, seeing as God is not an objective thing.  The physical is OF God, it is infact God, yet God is more than the physical, and more than the metaphysical, it is the All.

I do believe however that through nature unaffected by the egoic mind we can more clearly see how we are meant to live.  Good stuff!

Josh

Yes, Rishi, exactly! The challenge for us is to move to a post-analytical phase, not to revert back to the pre-analytical phase of our animal past.

In our post-analytical phase, we will have internalized synthesis as the ultimate state of being and the ultimate Truth, and analyze from the unitive viewpoint of the cosmic synthesis.

This will be the long awaited union between analysis and synthesis, logic and intuition, science and spirituality, between small t truth and capital T Truth!

So what does everybody else think? : /

Like the contented stupidity of what ends up in your hamburger.

God gave us the keys to car and said here, be careful, but have fun.  Along the way we learn the hard way, what to do and not to do.  What hurts and what helps.  Without this experience, you can't appreciate life.

What does Jesus-like mean to a cow?  Not much!  To you it conjures up a whole list of what to do's, how to acts, etc.

I point to a flower and say that is God.  The God is in the universe but God is not contrained by it.  I occupy space in the universe therefore God must be in me.  I occupy space in the universe therefore I must be in God.

IT

Russ

Yes Russ I would say that "Jesus" may only apply to human beings, for it is an example of how God is manifested in HUMAN form.  However, a cow may not know these labels of "Jesus" and "God", but is no less God than we are, and still lives essentially by the same way of life - by nature.  You are correct that God is not constrained by the universe.  "God" is only a name, but that which it implies is much more than the physical.  It is in fact the physical and non-physical, it is All.

How is it that our hearts beat and lungs breath without our conscious consent?

How is it that we instinctually know how to survive?

These questions suggest "God" as an answer,

however God should not be seen as some distant idle, far off in space.  Essentially "God" is everywhere and everything.  There is no "no-God", there is only the one.

You are correct that God is in you, and you are in God.  Essentially everything is equally God, because all that there is, is God.  There is nothing seperate from God, so it is therefore impossible to not be God.

: D

Josh

Josh

The classic line "God so loved the World.

Not loved me, nor Christians, nor humans, BUT the WORLD.  We are here tending someone else's garden and are supposed to be making a Heaven of it.

Yoda's line to Luke  "For my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you; here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere, yes. Even between the land and the ship.”

Or the line from the Galaxy Being of the 60s sci-fi show Outer Limits "Infinity is God. God, infinity, all the same."

IT

Russ

I agree Josh, you put it quite nicely.

We experience through sensors, sight, hearing, smell, taste and touch. What is in the mind is imagination and belief, i.e. what we have from the 5 senses combined in different imaginative ways.

However, perception of the true, more encompasing reality necessarily needs another sensor. It's referred to as soul. What is it? As any sensor, it need to be tuned to the property it needs to absorb, the same way a radio is tuned to a station, the same way our eyes see a certain spectrum and our ears hear only a portion of the air vibrations. What is that property the sensor needs to be tuned into? It's bestowal.

As you look at nature, bestowal is the all encompassing property; nature is a system where it's parts connect to another through giving as much as they can and taking only what they need. Same as the cells and organs in the human body. Bestowal is a level of reality concealed to us, because we are always aimed at reception, and we are always self concerned, above our survival needs. Developing the quality of bestowal in oneself means developing a soul through which another dimension of reality is perceived.

Gee, God and "Time" from the other thread seem to share alot of the same qualities. Can either exist without us?  Only the shadow knows!

waterfall

Great movie, IMHO

IT

Russ