RevLGKing
One Month With Atheists
Posted on: 10/03/2009 23:48
.BEGINNING IN AUGUST 2009, Here is my first post:
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LET'S TALK AND DIALOGUE--SHARE, WITHOUT CLAIMING WE HAVE THE TRUTH--ABOUT WHAT WE DO AND DON'T BELIEVE ABOUT LIFE, RELIGION AND GOD.
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Looking back over seventy years, for some time I have been very much aware that I do not have the same philosophy of life, or theology--that is, belief, or faith, in God or religion (the practice of morals and what one believes about life)--that I had when I was very young.
Because of my early experience with pain and suffering--caused by poverty and diseases like tuberculosis--I have never taken life for granted.
Before I was five, tuberculosis killed my oldest brother and sister--both in their early twenties. It also killed my oldest sister's husband, her two young children and our mother. The fact that, though, more than once, I was very ill and I surived still amazes me. I even went on to get a good education in the church-based school system.
There I was taught the 4 R's: reading, 'riting, 'rithmatic and religion. But the religion was not the dogmatic kind. Of course we read the Bible, went to Sunday School and were taught to say prayers. But when we got old enough we were encouraged to ask questions and to think for ourselves.
Because of this, for a short time, in my teens, I was very agnostic--I still am agnostic, about many things--and I almost became an atheist. Therefore, I hope I understand and respect what it is to be sincerely and honestly agnostic and/or atheistic.
At seventeen, to my amazement and great joy, I got the opportunity to go to a United Church-supported university--Mount Allison University, in New Brunswick, Canada-- www.mta.ca/ --a small university with high standards. All races, classes and creeds, including secular humanists were, and still are, welcome.
With a chip on both shoulders, but a very open mind about matters of faith, morals and religion, I registered for a BA leading, possibly but not necessarily, to seminary (three more years). I was pleasantly surprised that this attitude was openly accepted by the newly appointed director of the 60, or so, theology students.
Of course I am open to dialogue--to share ideas, and am very willing, to hear any opinion, pro or con.
While many of us are tempted to think of divine being in a human-like form--an idol created in our own image--keep in mind that, more and more people today, including those of modest intellect, do not think of God, as a being with a gender, with dimensions, or properties, of any kind. To make this clear, I prefer to use the acronyms G0D, or GOD.
I use the '0' to symbolize spirituality--the no-thing from which, in my opinion, all things emanate; the 'O' symbolizes the everything--the infinity of Being (micro and macro) debated by philosophers and open to exploration by science.
WHY THE SPECIAL ACRONYMS
They help me avoid thinking anthropomorphically--thinking of a 'god', or God, as a limited being--one with a personality and a name, one to whom we can point. This is why Orthodox Jews, when they translate the divine name in English, us G-d.
Atheists, please take note: obviously, I am not a typical monotheist. I am a unitheist--a doublet of panentheist. I have no idea how many out there think the same. I know there are a few. For me G0D, or GOD, is Being, Presence, or Reality itself--in the process of becoming--not as a being, or as one who exists separate and apart from what is. In others words, G0D, or GOD, like existence, is self-evident Being.
With the above in mind and using the principle of the Golden Rule--offering and expecting loving respect, I am very open to having a friendly dialogue with anyone, without prejudice, judgement or malice, about the many holistic values--physically, mentally and spiritually--of this approach.
Comments
RevLGKing
Posted on: 10/04/2009 00:01
This was the first response:
I am curious as to why you think a god is necessary - if indeed you do - let alone why it "has moral and ethical value for humankind."
We seem to be doing fine without one.
Tomlane
Posted on: 10/04/2009 00:32
Mr. LGKing, thanks for sharing your thoughts. So I'll just give you a few of mine. I know with out doubt God has a personality same as us because he has said he had made us in his likeness. Also, I have a one on one relationship with him and it has been a give and take relationship for 53 years. God healed me once rather dramatically and I know it was him for he called me His son when he spoke to me. He summed up most of his message found in the scriptures in four words. When healed me said, "My Son, be patient, trust me." That is what his message is all about in the scriptures. Its so simple its a stumbling block to most people, that is why Christ is referred to as a stone that people stumble over and is rejected by most of the world. Man's carnal mind {we all have one} wants to do more then what God requires, thus nullifying The Lord's Loving Kindness of doing nothing but believing. God says we can't do anything because all of our righteousness is as filthy rags and like the wind we are taken away {from God} Since everyone wants to do something physical to please God, we can't for our goodness or righteousness is filthy rages. That would be comparable to the newly wed bride offering her husband her minstrel rags as a wedding gift. The Lord view our righteousness for eternal life the same way and with the same abhorrence. Tomlane
chansen
Posted on: 10/04/2009 08:36
RevKing, perhaps a link would be better. It's hard to get a feel for the conversation you started at another site by copy-and-pasting your original post and the first reply.
Tom, that was completely nonsensical.
boltupright
Posted on: 10/04/2009 08:50
Thanks for sharing your story with us, it is a wakeup call sometime the challenges people faced who didn't yet have the technology to help us with illness that now seems unthreatening.
I would respond more but i refuse to write on this blue screen.
The blue screen has to go.
Bolt
stardust
Posted on: 10/04/2009 12:27
LGK
Hello! Hello! Its wonderful to hear from you again. You're still fine and dandy.....!
I agree with what you write. You once wrote some wonderful verbs as a definition of God I remember well...or maybe it was adjectives or both.
Your writing is great but sometimes it may be a bit too complicated for the people on the WC. I mean when you copy/paste from other forums, give a lot of links etc. Your message may come across more clearly if written more simply from LGK himself. Some people don't have the time or the patience to read a whole lot at once on the net. They sometimes don't access links. No offence. I hope you understand.
your quote:
Keep in mind that, more and more people today, including those of modest intellect, do not think of God, as a being with a gender, with dimensions, or properties, of any kind. end of quote.
Yes....yes....God is a spirit. God says he is not a man. His thoughts are higher than our thoughts and his ways are higher than our ways. Jesus also says God is a spirit. God has no gender of course.
On with the show! I'm so happy you're here. We need you!
stardust
Posted on: 10/04/2009 12:16
Tomlane
I'm happy to see you joining in discussion here. Its wonderful that you have had a healing.
Love, light, peace, and joy to you!
The_Omnissiah
Posted on: 10/04/2009 15:23
Hats off and applause to the Rev!
Excellent post IMO.
Good luck with the civil discourse.
As-salaamu alaikum
-Omni
Mate
Posted on: 10/04/2009 17:48
RevKing
I can certainly agree with what you have posted above. Anthropomorphizing God was and is a great mistake.
Shalom
Mate
RevLGKing
Posted on: 10/05/2009 15:23
THE STATS FOR ONE MONTH
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There are now 123 pages and over 12,000 clicks
THE SITE IS http://forums.about.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=1&nav=messages&webtag=ab-at...
I will go through the pages, as I have time, and select some quotes--to me and from me. See what you think. Any help you can give me--good questions to ask, or point to make--will be greatly appreciated.
It appears that atheists are convinced that human beings are nothing more that clever computer-like animals who happen to be conscious enough to be able to talk.We are bodies and minds, which are dependent of our brains. The only reality is physical nature as revealed by science.
There is no body, mind and spirit--only matter-based mind. Thinking about metaphysics, and the supernatural, is a waste of time.
What Christians and others call the spiritual world, with gods, or one called God, is nothing more than a figment of the human imagination. People who are religious are mentally ill. They agree with Freud who wrote--in his book THE FUTURE OF AN ILLUSION--that religious people are psycho-neurotics. Some are even psychotic. There are no healthy religions.
Iterestingly, some positive atheists value love. Some will add faith and hope. Some say that only love has any value. Tell them that John 4:7-8 says that God is love and they will reply that over 90% of the Bible is pure nonsense. They will not tollerate long Bible quotes or any attempts to evangelize them. Some sarcastic, bitter, cynical and beligerent atheists will simply attack and move on.
THEISM--the one true God. UNITHEISM--The oneness of all that is as GOD
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Because, as an openminded unitheist I do not do evangelize, some positive atheists are curious as to why I don't and they keep asking questions and reading the posts. Some even respect my hanging in there.
ABOUT THE GOD HYPOTHESIS
As some of you know I am uncomfortable with using the noun God, which directs us to think of the god hypothesis in terms of there being a human-like male being, separate and apart from us, with weight and dimension. To get around this anthropomorphism I am now using two acronyms: G0D and/or GOD.
G0D (G zero D) is my way of referring to the Spirit within us as imminent Being. When I want to refer to Spirit beyond us, transcendent being, I use GOD.
PNEUMATOLOGY--study of the spirit
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There are some positive atheists, who do accept that we human beings do have a spiritual side to our nature. They also value freedom of thought. Therefore, as long as I do not insist that they accept my terminology, they may think it to be nonsense, but they do respect my right to use it.
BTW, as long as they avoid being too nasty, I find it a lot of fun to dialogue with people who do not necessarily agree with me. It seems to me that one of the characteristics of Jesus was his universalism--agape love even to enemies--and his being willing to mix with those who were not necessarily his disciples.
chansen
Posted on: 10/05/2009 17:00
Thanks for the link. That crosshatch guy is clever.
Two of his better answers to your questions:
>.Other than the hope that people will keep the law of the land--the kind of hope all decent people have--what hope does atheism offer individuals and society?<,
I'm so glad you asked.
1.) "What hope does atheism offer individuals and society? Answer: 1.) The hope that they can regain their own native, intuitive, genuine sense of wonder. Instead of some presumptuous bozo with a bunch of initials before or after his name and a headful of canned divinity school graduation speech bullshit, jumping in and prattling on like a gushing fountain of received notion - - someone, somewhere, might actually be able to stare blankly out into the depths of space without even trying or feeling the need to kiss the ass of a Big, bossy, alleged creator who got there first and never tires of lording it over every poor bastard who's come along later and simply wants the chance and the right to just BEHOLD!
. 2.) the opportunity to live free of the claustrophobic tyranny of BELIEF and a search for MEANING, beyond the wondrous, spontaneous impulse of living FREE. before religion and its sadistic, controlling priest class came in and deputized themselves to "explain" what simply IS. Who the Hell ever stopped in the middle of an orgasm or the act of taking a healthy honest crap and felt obligated to wonder about the "spiritual" implications, thereof? Only poor saps who were wrangled by "reverends, priests, mullahs, rabbis, or other poobahs ...who deep down inside know nothing for sure.
3.) The opportunity to live in a context free of SEPARATISM. "Us" Versus "Them" might have a prayer of receding a bit if people could simply, in a guilt-free manner, honestly, forthrightly say: "I reserve the right to not Believe ANYTHING. If you can't prove it - keep your big damned separatist mouth shut. You're scaring the children and doing nothing but dividing and trying to conquer. Let's unite in our clueless-ness!!! It's so democratic!!!
Oh, you bet!! I'm glad that people like Mark Twain (Socrates, Hl Mencken) and too many to mention other savvy wits and clear thinkers helped to mock and ridicule all kinds of stultifying and archaic obstacles to freedom and evolution out of existence. I'm grateful every day of my life that countless unquestioned "pillars of decency and community standards" were laughed to scorn by brave pioneers of thought who bucked tradition and helped put traditionalist jerks out of business. Voltaire, Will Rodgers, Lenny Bruce, .....the list goes on and on of wiseguy iconoclasts who mocked, blasphemed and shocked polite society to the point where average people caught on and realized that they'd been scammed by sanctimonious jerks who'd been exploiting Humanity with their seemingly wholesome, traditional, 'decent" CRAP. It was crap that kept us in tired, unquestioned ruts for centuries. Hooray for sarcasm and ridicule in the service of exposing and shaming "respectable" hypocrites.
Yay for blasphemers, skeptics, mockers and all the rest when their cause was just and they upset "polite, decent, traditional 'values."
RevLGKing
Posted on: 10/06/2009 00:08
This is why I use the subtle approach. Never judge; ask questions
The_Omnissiah
Posted on: 10/06/2009 00:29
You know, it's perfectly plausible that I am the only concious being in existance, and that this entire universe is a creation of my mind for the purpose of...well...who knows!
As-salaamu alaikum
-Omni
stardust
Posted on: 10/06/2009 07:55
Rev. LGKing
That's quite a place you waded into
. The people are clever and entertaining. I'm surprised the thread is still alive to 125 pages! I hope I have time to read more today.
Some of our friends here are also atheist or agnostic including Chansen.
Do you ever manage to get anyone to join your particular camp ? I wouldn't have the patience or the interest in such a mission as yours.
I managed to read the first 30 pages. My computer is getting old and slow although I installed 2 new memory cards last month.
your quote:
It seems to me that one of the characteristics of Jesus was his universalism--agape love even to enemies--and his being willing to mix with those who were not necessarily his disciples.
Agreed, but I'm not sure Jesus would have spent 5 years with them, or is it longer. Maybe you have more patience than Jesus .....laugh.....
Love, light, peace, and joy to you and all of your atheist friends on about.com.
RevLGKing
Posted on: 10/06/2009 08:58
ABOUT THE LENGTH OF JESUS' MINISTRY
Question: "How long was Jesus' ministry?"
Answer: According to Luke (3:1), John the Baptist began his ministry in the 15th year of Tiberius’ reign (29 AD). Jesus began His ministry shortly thereafter at the age of thirty (3:23). Incidentally, this indicates that Jesus was probably born around 1 BC (please note: there was no year zero – 1 AD immediately followed 1 BC). This contradicts the popular date of 4 BC for Herod the Great’s death since Jesus was born while Herod was still alive. Recent scholarship, however, has discredited the popular view in favor of 1 BC; or more specifically, sometime between the January 9th lunar eclipse of 1 BC and the Feast of Passover a few months later. This tentatively corroborates Luke’s account....
For the details check out:
http://www.gotquestions.org/length-Jesus-ministry.html
Those who agree that Jesus was a real person of history--and there are those who sayhe was a fictional one--using the Gospel of John, say that his ministry was three and one half years.
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It seems that our ancient ancestors were so anxious for history to end that they had little interest in the future.
Here is an interesting question:
WHO WERE THE FIRST FUTURISTS?
MikePaterson
Posted on: 10/06/2009 09:25
WHY THE SPECIAL ACRONYMS
They help me avoid thinking anthropomorphically--thinking of a 'god', or God, as a limited being--one with a personality and a name, one to whom we can point. This is why Orthodox Jews, when they translate the divine name in English, us G-d.
stardust
Posted on: 10/06/2009 09:10
Rev.LGK
I'm not so sure the people Jesus hung out with were atheists?
Didn't a lot of the Gentiles at the time worship idols or so-called pagan gods?
RevLGKing
Posted on: 10/06/2009 09:12
Excellent comment, Mike. I hope you will contribute to the thread I started in A/A. Are you interested? What is a prat? And what is their belief system?
MikePaterson
Posted on: 10/06/2009 09:30
Rev.King: A prat is a hominid ape with an overwhelming sense of its own importance and centrality in the universe. Its belief system is that what's good for it, is also good for humanity as a whole and, indeed, for the planet... in perpetuity. It is a comfortable life but one I'm working at sacrificing for something less inanely delusional. It ain't easy....
chansen
Posted on: 10/06/2009 09:44
Some of our friends here are also atheist or agnostic including Chansen.
That's a terrible thing to say about a person! I'm as Christian as anyone here!
Oh, wait, Tom's gone. Yeah, I'm an atheist.
MikePaterson
Posted on: 10/06/2009 10:19
Sorry Rev.King: re: the thread you started in A/A: I hardly have time to indulge myself here, so I'm sorry.
But I'd like to say that, for me, life is a journey and the value of the Bible for me lies in its capacity to journey with me: in this way, it is alive, like the trees and animals around me, like the sea. All of these things are fluid, and speak to me through their mutability, and help me to really accept each new day as the new day it actually is. It is one of the books I travel with (another of my most valued being Edmund Spenser's Faerie Queen).
Biblicism, when it gets obsessive, is an impediment. There's more than enough NON-sense in the Bible to drive you barmy but, at the same time, it has words to reach into the heart of the darkest moment, calm a fear, salve a pain or regret, or to crystalise the passing insight. I feel my spiritual journey best compares with sailing by the wind, at sea. And I get nertsy if I stay too long, tied up in harbour: replenishment quickly becomes overloading and there's nothing like too much of a load to send you down when things get a bit stormy.
ANYthing, I fear, no matter how good or pleasing or enriching, can turn one from a journeyer into a galley-slave, from a free being into a piece of ugly architecture.
stardust
Posted on: 10/06/2009 09:56
chansen : your quote:
Some of our friends here are also atheist or agnostic including Chansen.
That's a terrible thing to say about a person!
What's so terrible about it? Oh I know. I'll bet I offended you. You're actually one of those rare Christians displaying the utmost in humility hiding your light under a bushel. I'm almost sure of it because you quote scripture so well. You almost converted Tom......go chansen.....go !!!
stardust
Posted on: 10/06/2009 10:02
Rev. LGK: your quote:
Who were the first futurists?
I'm not sure what you mean. Are you speaking about the Italian artists? If so, I'm not sure why?
http://www.cscs.umich.edu/~crshalizi/T4PM/futurist-manifesto.html
Futurist Manifesto:
chansen
Posted on: 10/06/2009 10:20
chansen : your quote:
Some of our friends here are also atheist or agnostic including Chansen.
That's a terrible thing to say about a person!
What's so terrible about it? Oh I know. I'll bet I offended you.
Actually, you did, by lumping me in with atheists and agnostics. I am not agnostic.
Don't worry - I'll get over it.
stardust
Posted on: 10/06/2009 10:34
chansen
Oops....sorry about that. I'll acknowledge my transgression and go public.
chansen is not agnostic.
I'm so happy you'll get over it. I wish we could say the same for you and Tom. You'll never get over him. He's branded like a hot iron in your memory forever! Poor Tom.....my bad....I think it was the very best laugh I had in all my years on the net. ( Tom, really I'm sorry. I couldn't help it)
chansen
Posted on: 10/06/2009 12:47
RevKing, from your last post on About.com:
I know this has become a recurring point over there, but now even I have to ask - do you know what an acronym is? Are you simply trying to redefine the word? You don't even acknowledge the question there, so are you trying to stir the pot by using words nonsensically?
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
RevLGKing
Posted on: 10/07/2009 00:00
Karen, did the theologians of whom you speak speak of a god who exists?
No wonder you rejected "the central premise of the argument". I would too. The theologians I respect agree: a god who exists is no god at all; it is an idol--an image or object worshipped as a god.
Anything unclear about what I just wrote?
RevLGKing
Posted on: 10/07/2009 00:20
Chansen:
As I understand it 'God' is a proper noun, which points to an anthropomorphic kind of god. If you are comfortable with this, use it. I am not.
Are you aware that Orthodox Jews use G-d to avoid making GOD an object to which we can point?
Check out:
http://www.redefinegod.com/profile/RevLGKing
There, the widely respected psychologist Dr. Stanley Krippner speaks highly of the acronym I use and is offering to make it widely known.
GOD is not a being, but is Being. The Aramaic word for GOD, used by Jesus, makes this clear.
Jesus did not say GOD is a spirit. He said GOD IS Spirit.
Even most atheists believe in that which if Good, Orderly and Desirable--GOD. Have you notice that this concept has held their interest? One does not have to prove that existence exists. GOD is existence--physically, mentally and spiritually.
BTW, I am not dogmatic about this. Feel free to tell me how you think of divine being. Thanks for your comments.
chansen
Posted on: 10/07/2009 06:48
OK, you have acronyms down. Good.
As for your spelling of G0D as something one letter removed from a hexadecimal number, I don't see the problem with using the tradtional spelling for your version of a non-noun god. Maybe just remove the capital "G"? In any case, it's all semantics. There are so many definitions of the Christian god out there, that yours is just one more. If they all feel they can use the old spelling, you might as well lay claim to it yourself.
RevLGKing
Posted on: 10/07/2009 22:47
==========================
Awhile ago, I TOOK 39 MINUTES and listened--and took notes--to an interview with Dr. Michio Kaku, about his recent book, Parallel Worlds. Dr. Kaku--a Japanese American born in Los Angels--is a well respected Harvard physicist. I listened to it, again, just a few minutes ago.
Has anyone heard of him? Do you think he is for real? Or is what he says a lot of BS?
It is claimed--and who am I to dispute it?--his amazing views on "the nature of reality, or existence" are a pretty good reflection of the generally accepted theories amongst many modern physicists: http://www.consciousmedianetwork.com/members/mkaku.htm
Listen. In this interview Dr. Kaku boldly affirmed that he is "LOOKING FOR THE MIND OF GOD" of which Einstein spoke.
In summary:
Dr. Kaku--one of the originators of the string theory (based on vibrations, not on particles)--spoke with a sense of humour and imagination.
In my opinion, he spoke about the nature of the universe, existence and the cosmos around us, more like a spiritually-minded and prophetic artist than a physicist. He affirmed that physicist are finding that the universe is much more than just something cobbled together out of measurable particles with physical and chemical structures, or forms.
IS THIS THE END OF PHYSICALISM?
Or are we being introduced to a new kind of physicalism?
He went of to say that the universe is, at its core, not just something made of atoms, or chemicals. With emphasis, he said, "All present texts on physics and chemistry will have to be re-written."
Not afraid to use the G word, he said that the universe now seems to him more like a GOD-composed symphony than anything he can think of.
Of course science is useful, but he asks us to think of it this way: "Physics gives us the harmony and chemistry gives us the melody."
IMO, HIS WAS NOT A NEW VIEW OF REALITY
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In my opinion, he spoke of that which certain ancient prophets and theologians imagine long ago. They held this concept in such great awe that they hesitated to sound their name for it.
In script they wrote: Y(a)HW(e)Y, GOD--as a concept of that which is way beyond the atomic theory of things. (See Exodus 3:14)
What the ancients called YHWH (G-d in English) --what we translate as Jehovah--I have simply updated using the simple love-based symbol made of three letters: GOD.
After listening to MK, I feel I now know what the ancient Jewish prophets, referred to above, had in mind when they spoke of the sacred Tetragrammaton, YHWH.
For them it was too sacred to vocalize. It was beyond physicalism. http://plato.stanford.edu/search/searche...hysicalism
RevLGKing
Posted on: 10/07/2009 22:56
THE FIRST FUTURISTS
I have always be interested in futurism. Perhaps we could read the following and then discuss it:
http://marjorieperloff.com/articles/marinetti-revisited/
stardust
Posted on: 10/08/2009 14:29
Sorry LGK re your Futurist link I'm not sure what it is that you find so intriguing? ( Popular atheism......?? ) You'll have to explain what it means to you or what you see in it.
RevLGKing
Posted on: 10/09/2009 08:10
Yes, I read it and found that it was not what I was looking for.
What I want to know is: Who were among the first to wonder about the future on earth?
If you find anything, let us know.
Meanwhile, take a look at the following, which I posted on the A/A--atheist/agnostic forum where there are now over 13,000 clicks:
I have been called A POMPOUS ASS.
This is much better than being a stupid ass, or an asinine wimp.In the role of a PA I will opine as follows:
God, Spirit (with a capital S), spirit, soul, mind are all one and the same, but they are not things. They are states of Being. IMO, we need to stop referring to a 'god' as if "he" is a being like us--a he. There is no such thing as a being called God. No wonder atheists have such fun with theists.
However, it seems to me that out of these no-thing states of being all that exists in material form in the Now, including the human body, emanated and evolved and is continuing to do so in the eternal Now and the infinity of Space. I equate Now and Space with Spirit.
To simplify this, I propose the following elegant solution.
BTW, the brilliant physicist, Brain Greene in an interview
http://www.superstringtheory.com/people/bgreene.html
said that "physicists often use the term elegant to describe a solution to a problem that is as powerful as it is simple.
'It's a solution which cuts to the heart of an important problem with such clarity that it almost leaves no doubt that the solution is either right or at least on the right track.
"And string theory is just that kind of solution. It provides the first way of putting quantum mechanics and general relativity together -- that is, merging the laws of the small and the laws of the large -- and it does it in such a sleek manner that it is quite breathtaking. And the term elegant really describes that kind of solution."
A POMPOUS AND PERHAPS ELEGANT SOLUTION
I call the beginning, or the alpha point of existence, G0D (that is G zero D)--all Goodness, order and Design, as measurable energy--or quanta--in a chaotic and potential state of becoming matter and evolving from there. Looking inward, this involves the use of quantum mechanics--having to do with laws that govern how small things work.
Looking out, the great Jesuit thinker, Tiellard de Chardin spoke of the end point or, the omega point of evolution. There seems to be that towards which we are evolving and processing in all directions, according to the principles of relativity--laws that govern how large things work.
To avoid the dangers of anthropomorphism--making god in our own image--I call this GOD, in capitals. It is an acronym, not a noun. The O here symbolizes the infinity of space.
GOD is that which is the total, universal and all-encompassing Goodness, Order and desirable Design in the largeness of space.
Our role in creation? IMO, we are here, armed with loving will power, to be co-creators. Most of us are free to choose to be truly human and humane beings no longer bound by the tyranny of any animal-like drives. If not yet, later. Evolution takes time.
Those of us who have evolved are responsible for the choices we make. That is, we are free to love (agape), free to remain confused, to be apathetic, or even to will ill, or hate (misos).
THE POWER TO WILL GOOD OR ILL IS AN AWESOME ONE
IMO, using free will (agape love) we are free not to care, and to stay where we are--that is, to endure the limitations of earth. We are also free to devolve, that is, to make more hell on earth than there is, or, we are free to continue to evolve to a heaven on earth, to expand to our galaxy and even the galaxies beyond. The choice is ours.
BTW, looking back, I don't recall having had any conscious choice about being born into existence. But this does not rule out uconscious will, or choice. Looking ahead, I ask myself: Do I have any conscious choice as to whether or not I will exist beyond my present death? Will I be? Or not be? The choice has already been made: Life, Spirit, Nature, Being, GOD, whatever I choose to call it, is eternal. Whether I like it or not, life is now, which is infinite and eternal. But I do have a choice as to what kind of life it will be.
The universe on a T-shirt:
E=MC2 + Imagination X Will (agape)
chansen
Posted on: 10/08/2009 18:42
RevKing, you've gone supernova. You have left absolutely no room to satirize the above - it is a self-parody.
Nobody at About.com has any clue what you're talking about any more. You may have started out over there as a pompous ass, but you've morphed into a concentrated ball of incoherence.
stardust
Posted on: 10/08/2009 20:13
Rev. LGK:
I like this Michio Kaku dude! I think lots of people share his views whether they are BS or not. We need to dream. On yesterday's news they said they discovered a new huge ring around Saturn that would hold a billion earths. Imagine that.....a billion earths! We're living in very interesting times.
The_Omnissiah
Posted on: 10/08/2009 23:27
Well I don't think your an incoherent ball...maybe that is because I can relate to what your saying, maybe not.
As-salaamu alaikum
-Omni
stardust
Posted on: 10/09/2009 07:17
Saturn Ring !
Mate
Posted on: 10/09/2009 18:26
RevKing
Some very interesting thoughts.
Two other scientists who woulod go along with the more then physical are Paul Davis and theoritical physicist and Dr. Francis Collins head of the world genome project.
Shalom
Mate
RevLGKing
Posted on: 10/09/2009 19:04
Omnissiah, Interesting. Maybe we need a three-way here, with ??? Chansen.
BTW, when did you become a Muslim? And, how come?
I like to think of myself a Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, whatever...as long it is not Cannibal.
Mate
Posted on: 10/09/2009 21:44
RevKing
Are you prejudiced against cannibals? LOL
Shalom
Mate
WaterBuoy
Posted on: 10/10/2009 07:33
Why is it that "real people" demand simplicity in a complex universe?
If you are complex in caring and thinking ... simple folks will call you crazy, bombastic or other hostile expressions. perhaps this is why creation (God as infnitely ominous?) put humanity in an isolated state.
Religion denies change and ony alteration of the whole thing ... thus one denies learning. Is this street smarts?
Acronism has some interesting definitions in lexicons ... like an expression that is outside of normal time ... timeless alteration... what evolutionary thought ... morphing of a soul into chaos of thinking tspace (nerdish?) to balance with people that go monotheistically with only what they "will". That's destructive! God doesn't have to destroy ... he made mankind! If God is unbound will is that the devil from another complex perspective from the hollo'd void of space of psi-chi? That's an open pyre in old Greek ... open Light to everyone if they accept what they see and not what they have been miss-led with. The Christ is an old word for small light ... like candle in the wind beconning light for the shadow of your's mille ... that's chaos from the far side!
Too complex for the song?
WaterBuoy
Posted on: 10/10/2009 07:36
Did you know that "nous" is an old word for the soul/mind/psyche a confining loupe for some that like free will as they can tromp all over everyone without a thought ... ominous ... like a God that thinks? Wouldn't simple Folk hate such an idealism!
stardust
Posted on: 10/10/2009 09:16
Rev. LGKing: your quote:
I like to think of myself a Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, whatever...as long it is not Cannibal.
Kahlil Gibran wrote : "As you eat the apple remember that you too will one day be eaten".
We know there were many Native Indians ( and others of course) living in Canada in years past and yet there appears to be very few Indian graveyards that I'm aware of. In all probability many of their bodies dissolved into the forest, the grounds, or whatever in many given places. I used to joke with my daughter telling her that the vegetables and fruit she is eating are the bodies of the Indians! Perhaps we're all cannibals with a small "c"........I'm teasing you.....
.
RevLGKing
Posted on: 10/10/2009 13:33
With an apology to any cannibals present:
I once shared a meal with a cannibal.
After a mouthful or two I said: "There is something wrong with this meat. It has a very funny taste. How come?" I asked.
My host responded: "He was the lead clown from the tribe over the hill. That's his funny bone you have in your mouth."
===========================
BTW, Stardust, your interesting post about native burials reminded me of what I hope will be done about my own burial. If I get my wish, without judging others as to their plans, I will not have the traditional one.
Have you heard about:
"Natural burial grounds are spreading, fast. Started in Wales in 1991, there are now more than 220 sites opened or planned, large and small, scattered across the United Kingdom.
There are a dozen sites in the US, with ten more in development. In Canada, there are two sites open, one in Victoria, BC and one in Cobourg, Ontario, and more in planning.
More and more of these burial grounds are appearing because they are allowing many people to fulfill their wishes to be buried in quiet, beautiful and natural places. And they want the option for the expense of their funeral to go towards establishing and preserving natural spaces, rather than mahogany caskets, formaldehyde and marble markers." I will add that such are symbols of human hubris.
http://www.naturalburialassoc.ca/
THE FAMILY LIFE FOUNDATION (FLF)
http://www.flfcanada.com
The FLF--all volunteers--strongly supports the idea. One of the members of the FLF, who once worked in the funeral business, is actively helping us spread the word.
At no upfront fee, collected by the funeral home, I will gladly conduct burials for people requesting it. If they so wish, they are free to contribute to their church, or charity, of their choice.
Thornhill UC., the one I now attend : http://www.thornhillunitedchurch.ca/
has the same policy for weddings and other services. I did one for them, recently. I do a lot of counselling, on the same basis. This week, I spent several hours--on the phone and otherwise--with people looking for help. I consider this part of my re-directment--I do not like the word 'retirement'--ministry.
RevLGKing
Posted on: 10/11/2009 01:05
BTW I just got a post from Eccles--a friendly protagonist in Scienceagago who, thinking I am a creationist, wrote me: He said that creationists have "problems" proving that evolution is about purpose; they make "mistakes", and are often given to "pomposity".
I responded: Eccles, before appearing to be pompously judgmental I will ask you a few questions:
1. Are you saying that all evolutionists are free from all of the above? They don't have problems, don't make mistakes and are never pompous?
2. If so, where is your evidence?
3. Do you assume that I am a creationist; that I believe in God-ism, and that human beings are already perfect and God-like beings?
4. How familiar are you with the life and work of the process philosopher, theologian, and professor of mathematics, the late Alfred North Whitehead?
Alfred North Whitehead (b.1861 - d. 1947), British mathematician, logician and philosopher best known for his work in mathematical logic and the philosophy of science.
In collaboration with Bertrand Russell (a "devout" atheist), he authored the landmark three-volume Principia Mathematica (1910, 1912, 1913) and contributed significantly to twentieth-century logic and metaphysics.
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Charles Hartshorne (June 5, 1897 ? October 9, 2000) was a prominent American philosopher who concentrated primarily on the philosophy of religion and metaphysics.
He developed the neoclassical idea of God and produced a modal proof of the existence of God that was a development of St. Anselm's Ontological Argument. Hartshorne is also noted for developing Alfred North Whitehead's process philosophy into process theology.
=================================
BTW, Whitehead's father was an Anglican minister. They must have had interesting talks.
Hartshorne was an Episcopalian minister and the son of a minister.
==================
Based on the book:
Universe on a T-Shirt The Quest for the Theory of everything...by Dan Falk
Have you heard of it?
I humbly submit the following UNIVERSE-ON-A-T SHIRT formula.
MC2 + A = E
E symbolizes all the energy (Good, Order and Desirable design, or GOD) we will ever need.
A, symbolizes agape, that is, humble, intelligent and imaginative love.
=================
MC2 + M = BB
M symbolizes misos (like misery? Misunderstand?)--the Greek for hate.
Is not misos, individually and collectively, the root cause of so much pain and suffering? Including murder and war?
BB symbolizes the BIG bang, a supernova, a really BIG BANG.
As the old song says, "We did it before, and we can do it again!" I hope we can love enough, not to.
=====================================
BTW, this thought just came to me: Perhaps the supernovas--BIG BANGS (BB's)--in those billions of stars, and galaxies out there are other civilizations being destroyed by misos of beings not unlike us.
Perhaps positive, imaginative and intelligent good will (agape/love) is the power which is able to stop this insanity and bring together the laws of relativity--the laws which operate in outer space, together with the laws of quantum physics--the laws which operate in inner space. This should give us a unified field theory.
If we can't understand the science, what can we do?
Perhaps we can do our part by mediprayting--a new word that just popped into my mind. In it came, like a new galaxy pops into being in the vastness of space--the soul, or mind (psyche), of GOD of which the known cosmos is the body (soma).
I think it means: Tune into, connect with and begin to be consciously aware and listen. No need to ask a reluctant god--no matter that we call him? Such a god an idol created, in our own image, by the imagination.
========================
Mediprayting? Not to be confused with prating--talking in a foolish way.
I think of it as meaning: Tune into, connect with and begin to be consciously aware of and really listen.
No need to plead with a reluctant god--no matter that we call him God. Such a god is an idol created, in our own image, by the imagination.
As beginners, we could begin by listening to the self, the chatter box, the ego, the prater--the one within who talks a great deal in a foolish way. Let us take note of the prattle going on in our heads. It could give us a clue as to the kind of things we need to know--the kind of things with which we need help and guidance.
We need to listen, think, reflect, cogitate, contemplate ask questions, formulate our questions followed by periods of rest and silence. This is the prayting part--I repeat: not to be confused with prating. I don't demand answers; I let the answers I need flow to me, to come to me, from deep within my own being. Philosophers, scientists, inventors and artists have this gift.
Finally, we can affirm that we are willing to take personal responsibility for our intentions, actions and who we are. With the help of all that is--some may want to call it nature, or reality, I call it GOD--we can know that we are ready to work with It and find the answers we need.
===============================
About Supernovas:
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/090504-mm-supernova.html
I wonder: Are astronomers prating when they tell us that, somewhere in the universe, every second or so a new supernova comes into being?
The_Omnissiah
Posted on: 10/10/2009 17:35
Omnissiah, Interesting. Maybe we need a three-way here, with ??? Chansen.
BTW, when did you become a Muslim? And, how come?
I like to think of myself a Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, whatever...as long it is not Cannibal.
Haha as long as it is just a discussion! (considering making a crude priest-related joke...will pass).
I became a Muslim about 5 months prior to my first Ramadan, so...March of '08. I have a "creation story" of sorts explaining how I came to Islam, and much has evolved since then, but I'll find the link after I'm done this post.
I also like tot hink I have a bit of many religions in me :) Muslim, a dabbling of Baha'i, a bit of Buddhist perhaps :)
As-salaamu alaikum
-Omni
P.S. link-> http://www.wondercafe.ca/discussion/religion-and-faith/upon-request-creation-story
stardust
Posted on: 10/10/2009 19:04
Rev. LGKing
I am familiar with natural burial re the link and I think its a great idea. Its wonderful of you to offer your services. I would be very pleased to rest in green pastures, a woodland, among the rocks, or a little brook.
However I already have a burial plot along with my husband who passed away just over 5 months ago. His body was not embalmed. It was kept for 4 days and we could have had the funeral two days later than that. Many people don't know that embalming is not required by law in Ontario.
Your link says that family members may lower the casket or participate. I attended a Jewish funeral where the three sons of the deceased shovelled the ground on top of the casket until the grave was filled in. Being quite foreign to me I found it distasteful although I don't know exactly why.
In any case I'm going straight up ............
stardust
Posted on: 10/10/2009 19:11
Rev.LGK
I checked your FLF link. I found you there happy and smiling.....
....good picture!
WaterBuoy
Posted on: 10/11/2009 07:16
Natural Burial ... it is aboriginal wisdom at its best!
Have you read: I Hear the Owl Call My Name? It is a fantastic story on the human tree ...
Then there is the East Indian Bier ...carrier of the Pyre within us ... just an umble sighing in the dark? Is mankind mostly shadow with a wee small fire that often goes unfounded? Soul of Dark Ness -- Joseph Conrad!
I liked the "A" (initialization of the spirit that many deny) in you energy conversion equation (empiric in some tongues) "love and creative imagination are like nothing" ... an easy load to carry for those that manage to deny the infinite integral of the soul/mind/psyche phenomena ... mostly curtailed in this space like a don Qui on the Wahl ... heaven lie satyrs? Is that two negatives: a lie and satyr in one sentence? Good God such d'evil tri!
My grandfather told me to pay no attention to Love as it was nothing ... unless balanced with intellect ... Is my guess. Is that Sophy of the practice of Phi-Lo-Sophy? Yah have to love studying the human mind ... it's mostly phi cund ... m'n-Ur-in some tongues! Just piscine laughing ... gets to the St OI-c's in church .. d'riva'd Stix? EL ova place to learn about what stuffing mankind is made of ...
stoneeyeball
Posted on: 10/11/2009 08:41
Atheism is to religion what baldness is to hair colour.
The_Omnissiah
Posted on: 10/11/2009 13:47
DAMN YOU EYEBALL!!!!!
As-salaamu alaikum
-Omni