What is meant by "faith"?

Shalom

Mate

I only have one core belief, mandella. For me, there is a God - in what ever name we use.Everything else is up for discussion.

See. You're questioning already .

For me, your faith is the set of beliefs that you hold about your place in the universe and, more generally, about humanity's place in the greater scheme of things. It could involve God, but it could also be predicated on your understanding of science or eastern philosophy. It also encompasses the sources of those beliefs and why you accept those sources as "the truth".

"What is your core belief about the world?" might be the root question here (or not).

Mendalla

Ah, but I'm not asking what is your core belief. What I'm asking is whether you ever question yourself about that belief or does making it "core" exempt it from questioning? Do you ever challenge yourself as to why that is your core belief with the possibility of "no, there is no God" as a possible outcome?

Mendalla

Mendalla

I have always questioned things.

I do not agree with that definition of faith.  The Greek word translated into "faith" is "pistis" which, according to linguists and scholars, ought rightly be translated into "trust".

Our religious direction ouoght not be a system of beliefs but ought to be relational.  It refers to our relationship to the Divine.  The particular religion we belong to is simply our expression of that trust.

Thus the only real question is about the existence or non-existence of God which is, on both sides, a futile debate.  In fact I rarely speak of the existence of God but the reality of God.  That being said I accept the reality of God.  To say God exists is to use very finite human terminology.

Shalom

Mate

I was surprised to find my interest in crop circles so hotly jumped on on a humanist forum I was in several months ago...(last winter I think). They just wouldn't listen to me about it, and every bit of juicy evidence I gave them they belittled and spat in my face. I was surprised to find myself holding onto my mysticism about it, and not allowing it to be questioned.

At the same time though, my main goal in the persuit of this subject is to discover what the hell is going on and why, and to use scientific evidence to discover and explain it. But their take on it was that is was already written off and there was nothing worth discussing. So was it me who was biased or them? I thought them, and I bowed out and left the group.

My view on the crop circle phenomenon at this point is that something is going on that we haven't fully explained yet, and I excitedly await the truth to come out, while enjoying the mystery and the beautiful patterns for now. So I decided I am NOT, a humanist, I give myself no label.

What you call questioning I believe I would refer to as doubts. And really I think it's best to be without doubt, to believe as a little child does, firmly upon the Rock.

Thankfully, God has furnished answers to our doubts. He continues to give out faith as we heed His call to read His Word, to participate in communion, to repent of sins and accept forgiveness, to listen to godly preaching, and to communicate well with the saints.

Elanor

Ignorance and closed mindedness abounds in many places.  You were not biased they were.  They are probably wearing something akin to horse blinders but more restrictive.

Shalom

Mate

Interesting m3f.  I would say that it is in doubting and questioning that we grow in faith.  ANd tht is what I believe we need to teach our children.  Of course it is relevant to point out that this is how I grew up...

Gord

AMEN

Shalom

Mate

One of the greates things I belive God said in the word, was to Moses. Moses said who shell I say has sent me. God said  tell them I AM has sent you. Of all things God could have said . He wanted his people to know I  AM Faith is a lot easier When you have a GOD LIKE THE GREAT I AM. What a window into the mine of GOD

According to scholars and linguists what God was actually saying was "none of your business, now get on with it">

Shalom

Mate

Interesting thread, and I think at the crux of it was something hit upon by m3f mentioning the word 'doubting' as equating to 'questioning'. And see, I believe there is a difference.

Right now, I am in a major state of flux in terms of 'questioning' my faith, moreso than I have been before. Having gone to the same church for 15 years, and having just moved, had me question in ways I haven't since I was a child just what I am looking for in a faith community; in the new faith community I have found myself in, I have just started a membership class (for lack of a better term) called 'What in the world do we believe?' - more questioning. Between that and my membership on WC ... yes. Lots of questions.

And yet, through those questions, I don't think I've ever experienced 'doubt'. I question in order to clarify, better understand, and become more comfortable with my relationship with the Divine that I call God - and I definitely sometimes wish I understood him better, because without knowing what he knows, some of what he does can make me mad, or discouraged, or upset - but I never doubt that he is a good and benevolent parent and friend and that if he and I just keep communicating, we'll figure it out someday.

I have mulled this over night. Is there a God? This is not something I have ever questioned. God may not be as I  perceive but when i look at creation, I can only look with awe. When I look in the eyes of my family and friends, I can only look with awe. I don't  question. For some reason, I just know there is a God.

It is easy  to read the posts in the cafe and type down what you think posters want to hear. I can't. For me my core value of God in my life, is why and who I am.

Thanks Mate, You know...they even sent me a youtube video about how they were openminded and I wasn't. It was very offensive and rude! I told them so.

Gord, My parents raised me that way, questioning everything. One of my fondest memories is my Dad telling me to, "go check it out." Figure out how it works, discover what's going on, take things apart, banish fear and timidness through discovery and understanding. He had faith in me to explore and discover my world and be competent. It applied to religion as well.

I have doubted faith and my own faith. I have questioned what I have been told. Most importantly, I have question male language that seemed to exclude me. When I was having problems with my biological father, I rejected the concept of "God the Father".

My great-grandfather was a religious man who used the bible as a weapon. I never met the man, but his legacy lives on. I do not tolerate any dogmatism. Well, almost any, I think we are influenced by dogma.

In questioning, I have grown in faith. I continue to question and grow.

Questioning is essential, how else should we come to a belief in God?  Through questioning.

As-salaamu alaikum

-Omni

God gives us faith in Christ when we are baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

He also gives faith as one reads and digests the Holy Bible.

Question, I believe, may lead all too easily to backsliding and falling away.

why?  but why?  but why?  oh. but why?  (don't even think of answsering these questions with "because").

a child loves, trusts and believes, but also questions.  it's not that they "doubt" you, it's they want better understanding. what they discover and feel even after they have been "told" your understanding, will be their own personal and individual experience---no matter how many times you tell them that ice cream doesn't taste good and they won't like it *lol* that's when i switched to chapman's sugar free.

I totally agree.

If your faith cannot withstand questioning, then how strong can it be? "Faith" without question is indoctrination.

I find myself feeling very uncomfortable with people who say things like "I know what I believe and I'll never change my mind".

Once I believed that God was a bearded old man who sat on a cloud watching for people to make mistakes so he could punish them!

On the question of doubt, I give you the following. It's by a UU minister and is one of my favorite readings in our hymn book:

http://www.picucci.net/Star/Spirit/cherish.shtml

I would say that if questioning leads to doubt, then that in turn means more questions need to be asked and the matter being doubted needs to be explored further. Questioning should not end in doubt because if there is a doubt, then that alone is reason for questioning. In the Gospels, Thomas gave voice to his doubt by asking questions and Christ's response renewed and strengthened Thomas' faith. So questioning need not end in doubt and can, indeed, end in a stronger, more vibrant faith, even if it is a different faith than you started with (worked for me, at least ).

Mendalla

Northwind wrote " If your faith cannot withstand questioning, then how strong can it be? "Faith" without question is indoctrination."

I agree Northwind.

I question, wonder, explore, grow and question again and again.

Many years ago when I returned to church as an adult I was fortunate enough to go to a church where the minister encouraged us to seek and question and find out things for ourselves, instead of someone else just telling us what to believe.  Although he was of a fundamentalist slant and his direction was just to seek for answers in the Bible, it still instilled within me the idea and knowledge that it was okay to question.  Today I seek answers in many places and in many ways.

I agree kay - and to extend that idea, I don't think being able to adapt one's thinking, as you did and as I have, as one develops a wider context in which to grow indicates a wishy-washy or untrue faith as some might, but in fact a stronger and more sophisticated one that has been forged in fire and withstood challenges.. There's my open-minded, progressive Christian approach for you.

Now for the more traditionalist - I'll own up here that if I approached academic research the way I approach religion, I'd fail - I KNOW I haven't covered all angles, and I can, on merit, be argued down in some corners by atheists. What I have is a feeling/instinct/trust - 'faith', if you will. I'm somewhat guilty in that sense of what you mention here about 'I know what I believe' - while I question and adapt my faith all the time, the answers I find to my question are always predicated on the idea that there is a God, I don't necessarily seek to break that understanding, but affirm it. At the same time, 1. Within that paradigm, I am open to new understanding and knowledge in which that faith can change; 2. I would like to believe of myself that if something came along to truly challenge that faith, I would be open to it instead of ignoring it or writing it away, and 3. I am of course accepting of ANYONE who doesn't approach faith the same way as I do.

The question of questioning one's faith does not apply me: I'm faithless.

In other words, my faith is experiential. I do, however, have concepts to describe my experiential faith, but these concepts are arbitrary creations rather than absolutes, and subject to change.

If hard-pressed, I would say that I believe the universe to be in a state of synthesis, which we can truthfully experience but can't truthfully define. And I would go as far as saying that the synthetical or wholistic universe is self-creative or self-generative, and could be regarded as "God," or whatever name one prefers to ascribe to the creative power of the universe. But, because there is no separate creator, such a faith could also be regarded as agnostic, atheistic or non-theistic.

Faithlessly and faithfully yours,

Arminius

Mendalla asks:

What about the rest of you? Do you open any and all of your beliefs to questioning or are there limits? Is there a core belief that you leave unquestioned or places you would never go in exploring your faith? How important is questioning and exploration of your beliefs to your faith?

Much like Crazyheart, I hold a core belief in the reality of God.  I also believe that this reality can be experienced, and that the Christian tradition offers me a pathway into it.  

Exploration is a very important part of my faith journey, but I really don't question these core beliefs a great deal.  I guess I don't see any need to challenge them . . . I am content with my choice to hold onto my core beliefs, and take my explorations from there.   My understanding of faith certainly shifts around quite a bit.

This is a great topic, Mendalla.  I have been thinking about using the idea the next time I facilitate bible study.  Thanks for starting this thread.

Hi P3. If I didnot have a core belief in God and like I said everything else is up for grabs, what would be the point? I think there would be such a hole in my life that questioning and exploration would not happen. As it is now, I explore everything but God is my centre.

To quote a favourite minister (who was quoting someone else, I'm sure), "Doubt is the stone on which the blade of faith is sharpened".

If you don't question anything, your faith will never grow.  If you don't trim back your shrubs every spring, you will be slow to see new growth.  Sometimes, you have to fall just to see if you'll fly.

That is lovely Faerenach! Thanks.

Didn't Jesus often use questions to make us think and ponder the answer more? Isn't this the rabbinical way of teaching?

 Luke 2:46-47

⁴⁶After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. ⁴⁷Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers.

I grew up in Judaism and they are definitely questioners. Growing up when I did, post-Holocaust, God was not even considered a given. That too was up for debate and conversation and questioning... Holocaust theology meant we pondered whether God was ever omnipotent (think process theology)... whether God had died, turned away from the world and therefore no longer relevant.... whether God or any supernatural deity exists or ever existed.... I grew up with the questions of people like Weisel, Kushner, Rubenstein ...

Hi Stevie:

Yes, Stevie, the belief in the omnipotent interventionist God went out with the Holocaust.

As one Rabbi cried out during the Holocaust: "If God permits this to happen, then God does not exists!"

I like process theology because it is a continuous creative process of defining the nature of God rather than supporting a fixed belief in God.

Click here to read another perspective on questioning faith.

Gord

I like that.  It is well put.

Shalom

Mate

    It depends on what we interpret Faith to be . Many people use this word to mean their religion but this is not what Bible faith is .

   Faith itself is our confidence in something or someone and to fully trust in that confidence that we are willing to base our actions on our belief .Faith in God then is having that kind of trust and confidence in God to fully commit ourselves to Him .

    The question is  How can we obtain this type of faith in God when we humans are so full of doubt and constantly questioning who or what God is and we criticize and doubt His word The Bible ?. This Bible tells us who God is and what He can do for us but we refuse to acknowledge it . Bible faith can only be gotten by way of God's word

  Romans 10 v 17   So then faith comes by hearing,and hearing by the word of God..

   no word, no faith

    Faith is a spiritual substance. It communicates a certain inner knowing that the thing you hope for is already established even before you see any material evidence .So faith in God is a response to God's Word which moves God to act.  

   Mark 11 v 23  Jesus is speaking " For assuredly I say to you , whoever says to this mountain,be thou removed and cast into the sea ,and does not doubt in his heart ,but believes that those things he says will be done he will have whatever he says ."

     This is faith at its best and it says --words mixed with real pure faith can and will move mountains as well as any other problems we humans face.

   Faith in God must be from our heart. It is not merely intellectual -- It is Spiritual 

     Blessings

Well said. I agree with what you have written here. God uses His Word as a means to give faith in Christ.

I have no beliefs anymore but that is open to questioing.   There used to be limits.  I refused at one time to consider anything but a loving God, who literally died for our sins.  I refused to even consider that Jesus may not have been born of a virgin etc.  I refused to even consider evolution as a possibility.   Those are places that I would never go.  

I went there and at a time when I needed God I realized that he was not there.  So what I believed in was either a figment or an imaginary friend or God is a very different person than I realized.  Menevolant instead of benevolent.   So I would say based on intellect and the whole "personal relationship/testimony thing God either does not exist or is manevolant.  He is not fair so why would I waste time in a relationship with him or he does not exist so why would I waste time in a relationship with him?

For me when I started to doubt and question things like evolution it was a downward spiral and I basically don't believe in anything anymore.

Maybe it depends on your background then.  If you have always been taught to believe that questioning was valid and important then it might be less threatening than if you were always taught that questioning was wrong

I read a short story in High School and it was about a guy who was a Christian in medivieal times.   Where there were stonings, nobody talked about sex, not even with their spouses, no dancing, etc.  His wife was out one day and he went for a walk.  He saw his friends, his wife, and his priest dancing around a fire.  They were all naked and practising witchcraft.  Seeing this ruined his faith.  He did not join them.  He lived the rest of his life pretending that he did not see this thing but inside it was eating him up.  He wished he had never seen it.

Another example would be if your spouse had an affair and the non cheating partner found out.  The world changes after this.  One realized that their marriage is a lie.  One realizes that friends were in on the big lie.  For some it is better not to know for others they need to know.   The marital home exists after the truth comes out.   The children are still there.  The spouse is still there.  Yet it is changed forever. 

When one asks questions they must be prepared to live the answers or live in denial the rest of the lives if they cannot handle the answers.  So is it better not to ask?  I feel like the guy in the short story except that I am not very good at pretending.

Can't imagine not questioning......it is why i have appreciated some of the small groups that I have participated in within our church ...

ps...and our ministers

I have a friend who's a very devout Catholic, and she's well aware how involved I am with my church.  She tells me that she admires me, for questioning my faith and delving into it as much as I do.  When I asked her if she ever wanted to join me at one of our discussion nights, she quickly refused.  She said she was happier having blind faith, that she didn't feel the need to question it.  I didn't pressure her, but what she said made me realize that not everyone is as ready to tear down their beliefs as I am.

Does that make me a stronger believer than she is?  I don't know... I just know that for me, questioning things makes my faith stronger.  If that doesn't work for her, why should I try to change that?

Agreed,Faernach.

For some, the questioning aspect of faith is a distraction.   For me, there are times when it is, and I just want to do; however, I need to know that there are others around me who are ensuring that the interpretations being offered  are "valid" in todays society, and with todays knowledge of the world including the historical place of the Bible.

faerenach

I concur.  It is in questioning and learning that my faith has grown much stronger then it ever was.  A good program is Crossan's Borg's "Living the Question".

Shalom

Mate

The phrase "The Word of God" does not belong to a book.  It belongs only to the risen One.  For Christians the very human words of the Bible become the "Word of God" not by virtue of its authore but by virtue of the fact that God speaks to us through the Bible.

When we make the Bible into the absolute and inerrant word of God we make an object of idolatry of it.  I like the term bibliolatry.  It says it well.

Shalom

Mate

I posted this on the same sex marriage thread and decided to post it here too because it relates to questioning faith.