Her kids come first. There is no reason to feel guilty about using the courts to make him live up to his responsibility and to be honest.

In my opinion, the Golden Rule does not grant permission for people to abdicate their responsibilities - indeed, it commands us to live up to them.

As a parent, our responsibility is first and foremost the well being of our children.  In this case the mother has a responsibility to pursue the course of action needed to ensure that well being and the father, well, he should have done so without the need of a court of law.

On a more pragmatic level, does BC have anything similar to Ontario's Legal Aid and government protected child support?

LB

If we don't stand up for children, then we don't stand for much.    
Marian Wright Edelman

Our church has a legal advice clinic.  I'm not sure how it works.  I think lawyers from the congregation, and perhaps outside, meet with disadvantaged people at this clinic, hear their story, advise if they have a case, help with filling in documents, etc. 

I think that our Christian response for anyone in this situation is to offer support - emotional support, and perhaps even financial support, and expert advice from those able to provide it. 

I also think that the Courts of this country should try to ensure that everybody has a fair hearing.   The judge should take into account in some way if the husband is able to afford an expensive lawyer, and the wife is representing hereself and their child.

Is there at least somebody from the church who is able to go to court with this woman and sit beside her during the hearing?

That I don't know, being fairly new to the church community myself. I will check to see if there is anyone knowledgeable and/or willing to support her in this.

I would forgive him & I would encourage him to spend time with his kids to let them know how important they are to him.

I would offer the suggestion of making up for the 15K with a direct payment plan towards the R.E.S.P. that will compound & honor the expences of the education of the children.

I would also encourage the mom to try to make peace within the family structure even though her husband is lost, & hasn't found his way home yet.

The first hope is reconsiliation, If that is not optional then at least in both cases of the parents would be just promote as much peace as possible in raising the understanding of these kids, to always know that dispite the love that didn't quite work with mom & dad, will still work for us as a family, a family broken, but not divided.

Bolt

I think a combination of the responses of jon and bolt would be perfect.  She needs to be aware of her legal rights and it is not somehow anti-Christian to pursue this.  However, she can also do this in a spirit of forgiveness and reconcilation, and give him options (through the legal system, so it will be binding). 

One more thing: she really needs to have legal advice.  There are ways she can get it if she has a limited income. I would pursue this not only to ensure that she knows all the options, but to give her a break from the very tiring and emotionally draining task of working through this legal problem.

Hi Motheroffive,

Micah tells us that we are called to act justly, to love mercy and to walk humbly.

Acting justly would mean that we hold ourselves and others accountable for their duties and obligations.  This man's fraudulent reporting has allowed him to rob his own children of support that he was obligated to pay.

Acting justly would mean that this man would be held to account and that he compensate for what has been taken.

Loving mercy doesn't mean that we turn a blind eye to this robbery.  It might mean that expecting him to pay the defrauded amount in full and quickly be lain aside and negotiation be entered into to set the terms by which the children can be compensated for their losses.

Walking humbly might mean that rather than wandering around and constantly lifting up how reprehensible the activity is that it is now over.  He has already damaged his relationship with his children by doing this we do not have to break a bruised reed or snuff out a smoldering wick.

At base I believe that the Goldenrule is about raising others up rather than tearing them down.  Some pruning is obviously called for here.  If at all possible focussing on what this fellow can do right holds more promise than focussing on what he has done wrong.

He needs to be held accountable without question.  The reason why becomes important in and of itself.  Do we hold him responsible because he has the potential to be responsible?  By doing so do we help him to be the man that he can be instead of the dead-beat he has been?

The family is broken do we cradle what pieces remain or grind them to powder?

Understandably so.  This man has lied to her and in so doing punished her children.  That would be hard to reconcile.

It is good that she wrestles with it.  Hopefully in all of that wrestling she winds up on top and not pinned beneath.

Grace and peace to you.

John

There isn't one

So far it hasn't done her any good

There is the legal response and she should use it to the full extent of the law

Punishing the kids is certainly not a christian response either ....

The Golden Rule is unfortunately often used to turn people into doormats. As LBM notes, that's not the intent.

All parties have to be taken into account. As bolt notes, "peace" is a good objective, but its hard to achieve peace if one is being treated unjustly. I don't know about a "Christian" response, but I'd suggest that a "Golden Rule" response would start with an expectation of a full airing of the father's ability to provide support, - including an understanding that there may be a reason other than miserliness on his part for hiding income. I don't know that to be the case of course, just saying that the Golden Rule requires that we be open to the possibility.

There is no aspect of a Golden Rule response that would say its okay to shirk responsibility to support one's children to the full extent of one's capability.

Absolutely Dave you are giving wise counsel as well, I was just giving a "christian" responce in how I see it.

The thing like jon also stated it the children are so very important inall this that they are in many cases just put on the back burner while mom & Dad show nothin but absolut disdain for each other.

The backstabbing & the dragging of the kids into the ordeal is a crime in my humble opinion.

Civil attitude is so much more comforting that the other form of dealing with such issues.

So really I speak of best case scenario.

Bolt

Are the exes involved Christ-followers? If so, I would urge them to consider 1 Corinthians 6: 1-7.

"When one of you has a dispute with another believer, how dare you file a lawsuit and ask a secular court to decide the matter instead of taking it to other believers! Don’t you realize that someday we believers will judge the world? And since you are going to judge the world, can’t you decide even these little things among yourselves? Don’t you realize that we will judge angels? So you should surely be able to resolve ordinary disputes in this life. If you have legal disputes about such matters, why go to outside judges who are not respected by the church? I am saying this to shame you. Isn’t there anyone in all the church who is wise enough to decide these issues? But instead, one believer sues another—right in front of unbelievers! Even to have such lawsuits with one another is a defeat for you. Why not just accept the injustice and leave it at that? Why not let yourselves be cheated?" - (NLT) 

I'm not sure that I understand Aquaman.  Are you saying that if both are Christ followers then they should ask the congregation to stay for a short while after the morning worship to decide this matter for them?   What if one or the other is not a member of that particular church, or was inactive, or has backed away since the separation? 

And what about the children - do you take them down to the basement and show them a movie while the congregation decides whether Daddy should be supporting them to the best of his ability or not? 

The matter should be settled. The ex-husband should pay what he owes. I do not dispute that. I only believe that if both are Christ-followers, then the case should be conducted by a mutually agreed upon Christ-following negotiator, rather than a law-court. The negotiator can be found within churches, or can be someone else offering their services for hire.

In my opinion, & the way it seems to mean to me this perticular passage that explains that we as beleivers, to bring a court of secular origin to weigh & measure right standing decisions, it is a down fall of the promotion of our collective Ideal.

We shouldn't have these issue between ourselves if we were truely enlightened to this Law of Love, this golden rule, this promotion of a Kingdom united.

It is a downfall to even have conflict when we are as enlightened children of God.

Bolt

She should check out local social services to see if anyone is offering a legal clinic as well as what BC offers by way of legal aid. The guy is in violation of a court order and no amount of forgiveness or Christian values is going to stop him from doing it again. A judge finding him in contempt and sentencing him accordingly just might. Sorry, but that's the reality in a lot of these cases.

At the same time, she doesn't need to pursue this as a revenge thing or treat him as an enemy. Let the state and her lawyer (and she should have one) take the adversarial stance and fight the battles while she focuses on the kids and on rebuilding her life instead of on fighting and hating him. She doesn't need to pursue some kind of magic reconciliation with him (and with this guy, it likely wouldn't happen anyway); she just needs to try not to let anger or other negative emotions get the better of her. Hating him won't help her case or her kids. Loving herself and her children and receiving the love of her community just might.

Mendalla

Agreed, at least until you mentioned "some kind of magic reconsiliation"

I speak of where there is a will,  there is a way,.

If Love creates a will for reconsiliation, who am I to doubt it's power?

Who am I to doubt unity, when it's something I always preach?

God is all about reconsiliation, at least this is one way I see Him.

Bolt

Oh, reconciliation is always a possibility, however remote, but it won't happen through some kind of rom-com magic. It would take hard work, hard choices, and personal reflection. Given how thoroughly he's violated trust in this case, I can't really see it happening without some kind of serious change in him, at least.

Mendalla

Who said to forgive for the sake of the children is not hard work?

Who said to make reasonable requests to establish a way for him to make things right instead of delving on the negative, provide a solution for this man to pour coals on his head & to burn him with conviction, was easy?

This is an amazing biblical principle.

I have used this principle & the power behind it is astonishing to me because it works for me.

Bolt

I will definitely show this thread to my friend to evaluate your responses. Marital reconciliation isn't in the cards - they are both remarried. RESPs are a solution either since the children are past the age where these are applicable.

I understand, but reconsiliation can be expressed in the form of civil ground.

Bolt

I understand, but reconsiliation can be expressed in the form of civil ground.

I don't know the complexities so I wont be so bold & arrogant as to say I have the answer for their problem.

But I can express how this principle has worked for me.

I was never married, I had a daughter with this woman & I didn't marry this woman because I felt that I wasn't ready for a child or a marriage yet, but I would be there to support this adventure as best I can.

That wasn't good enough & things went down from there.

It's a long story & there are of coarse 2 sides to every story.

But there was extreme tension after our daughter was born.

 Some things she did as a result of hurt & scorn were some things I felt very hard to forgive, but when I chose to forgive in order to not allow the situation go to the secular court system.

I looked at this woman differently, I felt sorry that she hurt so bad, I was part of that hurt so I though perhaps I should show compassion to her & express that I don't feel no more bitterness towards her & that I forgive her for not allowing me to see my daughter, & some other things.

Very soon after I wrote this letter to her expressing my genuine feelings & forgiveness, the door opened & we were able to have dialogue to a start of a reconsiliation between two people who Love their daughter very very much.

Bolt

That's wonderful for you, bolt. That's where she wishes to go but, she tells me that he has abused her goodwill and she no longer trusts him to keep his commitments (financial, emotional and physical) to their children.

I am wondering on your last respone Mother of 5.  You mention that your friend would no longer be in need of an RESP for her children.

Does that mean they are out of university and are now adults and so no longer able to use an RESP?  I think that would have an effect on whether she could get back pay for the last 3 years.

I know many divorces stop child payments at the age of 18 unless the child is a full time student.

Divorce is really contentious.

I have a male friend who gets limited visits with his kids, his ex appears ( at least my his account) to constantly change, withhold.....  I see his side, and yet hers i don't doubt is very different.

Then I have a sister in law, who is in constant battle with her ex over money and support and I see her side.  But then she will arrange things for her kids, then get mad when he won't pay half but he won't because it isn't in the agreement.

Anyway, as someone said, it is possible there are two very different sides to this sad story.  I think a good lawyer is needed so it becomes less emotional and more objective.  I hope that she is able to find a good person to advise her.

IMHO, I don't think $15,000 is worth the battle or the emotional roller coaster this is keeping her on. This works out to $5,000. a year which I'm sure would have been very helpful but this woman obviously pulled it off. Kudos to her, a testament on how innovative single parents can be.

She survived the last three years without it. This guy is aware that she knows he has cheated his children. Let the "burning coals" be on his head.

I'm not a great fan of flogging a dead horse just for the sake of money.(the irony here is that he is probably going to spend close to that amount fighting this in court) I am a bigger fan of living beautifully and demonstrating grace to the children on how we respond to lifes unfairness. Personally I would rather take back control of my life and not let this guy have any power whatsoever to disrupt my life. (I'm sure this must be taking a toll on her current marriage too)

It is HER choice though and HER call. Whatever she feels compelled to do for her children and herself is a choice only she can make. You have to pick your battles carefully in life and if this is worth it to her than she should pursue it, but if this is taking over her life and will only have a questionable result one has to wonder how much sooner she could have got back to taking control of her life and spent the extra time she was in court with her husband and children.

Regarding the RESPs, one child, who could have used the help, is no longer a student and is a young adult struggling to get by, with student loans payments. Part of that money could help her. The other child is a student and does need more help. I agree with waterfall, however her children do need the help that the $15000 could bring. As well, she has assumed debt to assist her kids and any part of that back payment would help her resolve some of that.

That just goes to show the complexities of the issue, not to mention the internal ramifications to this dilemma.

The children are already past the point of the dammage caused by the feeling of rejection from ones own flesh, & probably the the situation is past reconsiliation.

The thing is, "from a christian perspective because I do beleive I am a christian".

We as children of God have a hope, & this hope is so far ehead of any blessing mankind has ever experienced.

So when issues arise & we are challenged, does this change anything that is to come by faith?

I then come to a conclusion that the one who is miisng out the most is dad.

I know this sounds sappy to some but it's just something that has done wonders for my faith.

This is the establishment of biblical principle being applied & honored right before my very eyes.

Bolt

$15.000 is nothing to laff at women tend to go down the road of poverty once they get divorced .....

You gotta fight for something not just lie there ....

women tend to be really stupid about money, not understanding that money does for the most part make the world go round you can't pay bills with christian love or keep a roof over your head with goodwill .....

Yes, that dad is missing out and no, I wouldn't agree that "women tend to be stupid about money". I would say that many women are damned good at managing money, especially when their children's well-being is at stake. However, having said that, there is much here for her to consider.

Yes there is a tendency for family breakdown to lead mothers into a lower-income bracket.  THat says more about our society than the individuals involved.  (I wonder if the same happens as frequently for fathers who become the custodial parent) 

Yes we often have to stand up for ourselves and call other people to responsibility.

But your last paragraph is sexist mysoginistic nonsense.

The way I look at it, for me to hold bitterness to my ex girlfriend for not paying my daughter money during her last 2 years of her teens for support, would be counter productive in my situation. I know the complexities of the situation regardless of her mother having the ability to give her daughter at least half of what I gave to her very hands with regards to support for my daughter while in her care.

It caused more strife with my daughter towards her mother than anything!

So why add fuel to the fire?

I know her mother well & I know how she can be if I even critisize her in any way so why bother.

 She is a wildcat, this is what intregued me about her when I met her. This is my downfall being attracted by women of such nature.

Our daughter turned out to be the best of both of us & I'm so very very proud of her.

My comments are based on my experiences & in no way can I be so bold as to say it will indeed work in your friend's situation.

Bolt

That says more about our society than the individuals involved.  (I wonder if the same happens as frequently for fathers who become the custodial parent) 

Not really

Women have  a tendancy to quit their jobs or work part time once they get married and or stop improving themselves altogether  no more career advancement ..... no more education ..... just pop out babies ... men don't get those perks it's not sexist it's simple economics ..... men earn more and usually have a lot more financial leverage then again they don't sit around having someone else take care of everything ...

This is something we saw all the women in our lives do,  we tend to be our own worse enemies and screw ourselves royally !

Until we embrace financial independance whether you are in a relationship or not the outcome will always be the same.

You can't rely on anyone but yourself.

Ignoring the previous post as one doesn't know where to start, my friend was served with documents today. Her ex wants to stop all child support and have all arrears declared null and void. This despite the fact that the young man in question has a diagnosed learning disability and needs all the help he can get. My friend is beginning to come around to the idea of holding him fully accountable in court so as to continue to protect her son's interests.

Finally your friend is growing a spine

Good for her