Sowing that is ruined by enemies is to be expected

Sowing that is ruined by those who pretend to be our friend is regrettable.

Sowing that is ruined by those who think they are our teacher is the most tragic of all.

Hi Witch,

I guess it is.

Ending the feud would summarily put an end to the existence of an enemy.  Although I suspect planting another vineyard requires much less effort.

Fool me once shame on you.  Fool me twice shame on me.

Is the regret centred in the fact that we were fooled by the one who pretended or is is centred in the fact that we blew it in the discerning of real or false friends?

I think that there is a difference and that difference shapes the direction we travel in.

If I am angry at someone else I have no control over what they do.  I can exercise control over how I interact with them bearing in mind that a real enemy will not respect those boundaries no matter how reasonable.  If I am angry at myself I have control over what I will do and I can change the way I do things seeking to change what I reap or, I can keep on keeping on.

Agreed.  Although I think that this can get a bit messy.  There are formal student-teacher relationships and then there are informal student-teacher relationships.  Here at WonderCafe.ca I think we are swimming in the midst of a sea of informal student-teacher relationships.  Each of us has the opportunity to be the student to another's teacher and each of us has the priviledge of being the teacher to another's student.

Ideally this would be a give and take relationship.  I would learn something from you and you would learn something from me.

If either you or I believed that we could not be the student of the other and that we were rightly understood as the teacher of the other I suspect we would run into difficulties no matter how reasonable we thought ourselves to be.

The burden of teaching is a fairly heavy one, at least the author of James believes that to be the case:

I think that the author of James is targeting teachers in the formal sense.  I don't think that the application to teachers in the informal sense is out of place though.

I sometimes wonder if our shifting between the roles of teacher and student, particularly in an informal setting happens without our being aware of it.  I can imagine we aren't always thrilled to find ourselves in places we don't want to be.

Grace and peace to you.

John

For me, the thorns growing quicker part seems to fit.

It is like in real life, you return to a place once lush and not so much anymore. You do not return as often, or enjoy it as much,  as when it looked more like a garden. If it is yours and it is not tended, it must be that you do not have time, means, ability or desire, or you simply could care less what grows. If it is not yours, it does not matter what you planted there, how many rows you tilled.... It is ultimately  not yours to prune or dig up or weed....

So, you wander in and do so fully seeing the weeds, the overgrowth, and the barren spots where something special once grew. You also silently reminisce and see beyond thorns, weeds or before them. Bitching and complaining about the condition of it does nothing.

Only hard work would and if it is ultimately not your garden to prune, weed, till under...

It is a plot you once visited or perhaps even spread seeds into.

You still find some hardy plants and you enjoy their beauty. You miss what no longer blooms. They could not and cannot be transplanted. They are not yours to transplant.

So, you wander in and wander out.

For some, it is a beautiful place still. For others, it is in shambles, For some, it has only lost some of its beauty.

Gardens are one day and they are not another without constant tending.

And especially,  by finding you are the weed in the garden.

Hi SG,

Lending perhaps some truth to the curse of Genesis 3.

Amen to that.  It is as if something that once was is now lost and never to be found.   Why bother looking when there is nothing to find.

Still, I have been noticing that weeds are, though prolific and vigorous in the short term, poor distance runners.  Eventually the weeds fall to plants that are considered to be less weed like.  Of course that might just be a climate thing.

Very good points.

Too true.  Bitching and complaining doesn't transform ragweed into roses.  Although I think an environment full of Bitching and complaining is going to do something.

Hard work, aye!  Another road less travelled.

Beauty lies in the eye of the beholder eh?  I suspect you hit the bull's eye there.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Hi crazyheart,

Pity the poor weed.

It only knows how to do one thing and it goes and does that one thing and everybody wigs out.

Weeds also have the ability to impress with their beauty.  Scotch Thistle anyone?  Beautiful flower and the stems and leaves are ornate.  Almost every crease and fold is armed with a thorn.  Why is a rose not considered a weed?  Sure roses are rarely as thorny as Scotch Thistle (I have some climbing yellow roses that give them a run for the money thorn wise).

Now considered a weed it was introduced to North America in the 19th century as an ornamental flower.

Weed or flower seems to be a subjective distinction.

Grace and peace to you.

John

There are differing opinions on who is the weed and who is the plant.  Whose opinion shall we go with?

A weed, according to my mother's wisdom, is a plant growing where you don't want it.

Hi GordW,

That is not the first time I have heard that particular proverb.

According to the internet EJ Salisbury first said it in 1935.  This proverb and others that have interesting relevancy to the thread can be found at:

http://www.quotegarden.com/weeds.html

Grace and peace to you.

John

I hope you don't think of yourself as a weed. I think of you as one of the many beautiful flowers here. To continue that analogy, I think of myself here as a bud that is just starting to bloom - I can only hope that I will be as beautiful as you.

I think this is a lovely, diverse garden.

To carry the farming metaphor 1 more step, keep in mind that when you make the conditions perfect to grow what you've sown, you've also encouraged the weeds.

You can always come up with uses for the weeds, make chickweed soup.

I find, that if I plant an apple seed, I would be surprised if it grew into a tree. I don't know if it's lack of gardening skill on my part, or that the seeds have been tainted by the producer: gmo's or pesticides, terminater crops, picked too young to develop useful seed... maybe it's the soil, or I water it too much, or I don't water it enough....Or maybe I expect to be able to have too much choice in what grows and what doesn't.

Hi Elanorgold,

I'm thinking that chickweed soup is made from chickweed.  I don't think chickweed soup can be made from ground ivy.  Celtnet has a few recipes which use ground ivy.  Thrifty Celts we don't like to throw much away do we?

I have to admit I haven't tried growing apple trees from seed so there might be some tinkering that makes it difficult.  I have successfully grown an orange tree from seed.  It was growing quite well until my mother's cat decided to eat it.  I haven't tried to do so recently.  I have decided that I would like to try growing either apricots or peaches and have a few pits in the freezer.  I should probably pot them soon and see if I can get a jump on things.  I know it will be several years before they fruit.

We have a huge front lawn and a few trees would break up the mowing monotony.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Some seeds have to dry out and then be frozen before they will grow.

Apple seeds will never grow into the kind of tree that it came from.  You will notice that all apple trees you buy at the store have been grafted to a different root.  So all mcintosh apples come basically from being grafted from one tree.  Apples need to be cross polinated, so the resulting seed will be different than the parent.

Aha! Messing with nature! So it isn't me after all! I wonder what type johnny Apple Seed was sewing? No doubt one of those herritage varieties. That's what we need!

Ground Ivy soup doesn't sound very appetizing! Chickweed is pleasantly crunchy though. It can also be eaten raw, just like the cows, Moooo!

I've been mulling this over as if it is referring to the church.  Maybe the sudden noticing of declining numbers comes from this syndrome of 'reaping what you sow'.

I said many years ago that if the church wanted to survive it would have to change (this was in the late 50's, early 60's and on).  My observations showed that continual small changes were needed to avoid having to make big changes.  So, updating the music regularly avoids that suddenly recognised need for a new hymnbook.  (Listen to the old ladies howl at a whole new hymnbook when they may absorb one new hymn every few months).

As new books on theology are written they should be reflected in the sermons and works of the church instead of being 'hidden' like some dark secret. This didn't happen 'way back then' - young people asked questions based on the newer books on theology and were accused of all sorts of things, including heresy!  It was a brave person who shared a new understanding of a few Bible verses - they were written in stone, you know, and so were the interpretations.

I said if churches didn't start treating women as full humans they would leave - which they did in there thousands from the Anglican church anyway.

If clergy didn't start educating there congregations they too (the congregations) would leave, thinking they weren't actually Christian because there thoughts weren't heard in sermons or at church study times.

So - I think the mainline congregations are indeed reaping what they have sowed.  I don't know the cure because nothing much seems to have chnged since then.

maybe use a new fertilizer, Kay.

also, we should always condiser, things arnt always as they seem, there is a fine line between observations and judging...

"you cant always judge a book by its cover", furthmore, we shouldnt even judge the book.

----

ppl can throw all the seed around they want, is it good seed?, will it bear good fruit?

one might ask themselves after reading this thread,

can a corrupt seed bear good fruit, or is the fruit going to be corrupted too?

------

othere is a flip side to every coin, and more than one coin.

---

³⁴Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

 ³⁵Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.

 ³⁶And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together.

 ³⁷And herein is that saying true, One soweth, and another reapeth.

 ³⁸I sent you to reap that whereon ye bestowed no labour: other men laboured, and ye are entered into their labours.

----

maybe its not so simple

Hi Stephenb2012,

Yes, we should.

I disagree with you on that sentiment.  The phrase, judging a book by its cover, is meant to point out the obvious, that a book is more than what can be conveyed on the cover, quite a bit more or books wouldn't get thick.

The intent is to spend time in the actual pages of the book and explore it before one decides to say the book is worth the read or not.

It is an invitation to do more than a simple surface evaluation.

That is the test isn't.  All seed is good (meaning all seed will grow another plant in the proper conditions) whether or not it is desired is another matter.  Good fruit is not the test of good seed.  Good fruit is the test of a good tree.

Everyone would do well to ask themselves that question.

And then again, maybe it is.  If you are not reaping what you have sown what has gone wrong?

Grace and peace to you.

John

Strange, I mentioned in church this morning that I mostly get to sow seeds, some of which become fruit under the care of others.  kaythecurler, I understand your pessimism, but don't share it.  I appreciate your comments about current theology.  After saying the New Creed, I took time to have a discussion with the congregation about post-theist congregations.  We didn't have any answers, but it was helpful to encourage each of us to think about our individual understandings of God.  My sermon, based on 1 Cor 2 to 4:5, was on the necessity for conflict in church, and the need to engage conflict resprectfully and lovingly.  This was obviously lacking in your church experience in the past, and I regret that.  I continue to hope you will encounter a congregation that matches your needs and hopes.

Oh goody!  A whole bunch to cogitate over, here.  Here are some of my thoughts:

I think that it can be said that I am constantly reaping what other people have sown -- things like the structures of my society, the technologies, my language...

If the world seems to react in understandable ways can one, with enough smarts or awareness, learn how to sow for certain effects?

Does the state want every act of sowing to be able to be reaped?

For something like poverty, isn't there a paradox between letting us act as we want to and needing a more narrow way of acting to deal with poverty?

Can, depending on the person, one's enemy to a certain sowing can be a friend to another act of sowing?

Is there a substantive difference if I treat someone who stamps on my garden as an invader to I treating them as me being involved with their stamping on the garden?

Hee hee, Elanorgold... I can't help but picture beef tartar with this comment!

I've loved the symbology of the seasons and growing things ever since I was tiny.  Naturally, the book The Secret Garden is one of my favourites.  Fancy a garden that's been forgotten, but still thrives through neglect.  It dies a bit every year, only to come back stubbornly every spring.  It would do just fine without anyone helping it.  But the beauty of the story is the effect of that growth on Mary; she grows alongside her garden, and becomes stronger the more she puts her faith in spring.

I wonder if it's just as important to sow and tend as it is to let the apple tree have an effect on the planter as well.  If we just sit in a garden and play God, deciding what's a weed or not, how do we let ourselves be transformed along with it?

Hi Faerenach,

Well, nature is a progression and what we see in an untended garden is simply a natural progression of flora doing its own thing.  It will continue to do its own thing as long as it is allowed.  Flora doesn't know how not to do its own thing.

When we play God we freeze progression and we demand that flora does our thing.  We step away from a biodiversity to a monoculture.

That said, while we might have the ability to limit what we allow to grow we do not have the ability to command what is limited to grow in ways it is not designed to grow.  At least not immediately or even easily.

It is a matter of aesthetics.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Quote:

"There is another parable that follows the sowing and reaping thread.  In it a farmer plants and while he sleeps some enemies creep onto his farm and sow thorns knowing full well that the thorns will sprout quicker and strangle the foodcrop."

How do you feel about GMO seeds that are carried by wind to neighbouring farms where they are not wanted and choke out "natural" plants?

Should we be allowing the planting and harvesting of more GM crops when at this time we don't know the long-term side effects?

Are GMO crops friends or enemies?

GMO's are definately enemies. They should be banned, as they have been in Iceland. At least thus far, gmo's are not allowed in wheat in Canada, so make sure you buy Canadian flour.

Faeren, I really liked the Secret Garden too. I read it to my son about a year ago and we both liked it a lot. I think of scenes from it regularily. I could do with seeing a bud or shoot or bird this time of year!

Here's Botticelli's Flora.

In a flower garden, yes.  There are two types of garden that have always fascinated me: Japanese gardens and Native Plant gardens.

Japanese gardens, for me, seem to embody the harmony of human craftsmanship and nature's beauty.  Most Japanese gardens are designed with nature in mind, with rocks pretending to be mountains and gravel expanses acting as ponds.  But the true beauty for me is the thought behind the design.  They are meant to stand as works of art through all seasons - winter included - and they evolve slowly.  It's not a matter of sticking some annuals in - there is a plan for every bulb, every tree, every rock.  The timelessness that comes from spending even a few minutes in one of these gardens takes my breath away every time.

And Native Plant gardens blow my mind.  They are the artistic bitten thumb to GMOs and fancy varietals.  When trilliums and butterfly weed colour the ground, you can't believe it's been designed by anyone but the ultimate Creator.  A garden designed to tolerate the space it's in - so that it flourishes untended deliberately - well... that's a sight to see.  It's a reminder that that space behind your house can be turned back over to nature, and not held ransom.

Elanorgold, thanks for Flora!  Have you heard the musical The Secret Garden?  One of my all-time favourites, and the first one I was in.  If you ever get a chance, go see it!

Oh man... I went on a little there.  I think I miss spring.  Isn't it Canada Blooms yet?

Why?  Many GMO crops have greatly increased yields, which means more food.

What, exactly, is the danger of GMO's?

alta, from what I understand it's the fact that GMOs are slowly crowding out the diversity of seed that exists, and many companies that sell GMO seed are true monsters.  They patent their GMO then force people to buy it every year - keeping it and replanting it violates the patent.

Please, what is GMO? genetically modified???????

Genetically Modifiied Organisms

Plants:  canola, corn, rice, etc.

Animals: the  only one I am aware of at this time are some strains of salmon designed to grow faster and bigger, yet be unable to breed with wild salmon;  There is work on a goat that will produce spider silk protein in its milk.

Bacteria and Fungi:  to produce chemicals and medications like insulin, and eliminate some pollutants in the environment such as spilled oil.  Most insulin today, I believe, is produced by bacteria.

Faeren, no I haven't seen the musical. SOunds nice. Well hubby and I went out to the frozen lake the other day and heard TWEE twee! TWEE twee! Love that. ANd it was beautiful with the sun shining on the snow.

Alta: GMO's are abominations. The companies, such as Monsanto, create crops with pesticides built into their genetic structure so they can use more pesticide on the crops and the crop won't die, but more poison goes onto the land and into our water supply. Monsanto also sells the pesticides. They also create what is called terminator crops, that can't reproduce, making the farmers have to buy new seed every year rather than saving seed. The pollen from the plants also carries on the wind to genetically contaminate other crops, such as perhaps the organic guy next door, which ruins his livlihood, and if this carries on there will be nothing natural left one day. We don't know what genetically modified foods do to us long term either, but I suspect ill. We know that the pesticides are contributing to increaced cases of allergies, asthma and cancer to begin with. These companies mess with nature and put things that don';t go together like fish genes in tomatoes to make them withstand colder temperatures. It's dangerous stuff.

It infuriates me that in Canada gmo foods do not have to be labeled as such. But you can know that pretty much anything with canola or corn in it is modified. They are Franken-foods.

Current estimates of GMO products include the following:

• 91% of soybeans grown in the United States are GMOs.
• 88% of cotton is genetically modified.
• 75% of corn has been genetically modified.

These items are often highly processed and added to many different convenience foods in forms like:

• Cottonseed oil
• Soybean oil
• Soy protein
• High fructose corn syrup
• Corn oil
• Canola (rapeseed) oil

Because of the prevalence of these ingredients in common foods, it is estimated that 70% or more of the convenience foods contain GMOs. Currently, the USDA does not require that GMOs be labeled. Unless you are buying 100% organic items, you may never know if your food contains GMOs.

If you wish to avoid GMO's in your food, go to the website below and dowload the guide:

http://truefoodnow.org/shoppers-guide/

gecko46, I think canola oil is 100% rapeseed, and most commonly produced in Canada I believe.  Though any canola oil you buy now is pretty much guaranteed to be GMOed in some way - so that sucks.

My husband is from Barcelona, Spain - Spain being the greatest producer of olive oil in the world.  When he found out what canola oil was (and why everyone here used it), you should have seen the face he made.  It was like telling him we cooked with dish detergent.  Apparently, it's the oil with the worst reputation in Spain - doesn't help the flavour of anything cooked in it.

We have a few misconceptions regarding GMO crops.

-GMO crops are not crowding out diversity.  New varieties that are an improvement have always displaced the older varieties they were replacing.  This has bee going on for over 100 years with conventional breeding programs.

-Many companies that sell GMO's are true monsters; but that also applies to many companies that don't sell GMO's.  Also, there are many companies selling GMO seed that are not monsters.

-GMO seed companies do not force anyone to buy their seed.  They do, however, require you to sign an agreement when you buy the seed that you will not keep any for seed production.  This is nothing new in the seed industry.  Many new varieties of several different crops (non GMO) are introduced this way.  Back in the early 1980's if you wanted grow Laird lentils(a non GMO crop), you had to sign a total production contract.  This meant you had to sell the entire crop back to the company that sold you the seed, at a pre-determined price.

-There are NO pesticides built into Monsanto's canola.  The plants are genetically modified to be resistant to glyphosate (Roundup).  Glyphosate is a non-toxic herbicide that kills basically any plant by blocking photosynthesis.  It is also soil neutral, meaning that you can't sterilize the ground with it.

-Canola does not self pollenate.  It needs contact from birds and bees (oops that sounded naughty).

-I think we must be getting a handle on the long term affects of GMO foods after nearly 20 years.

-Rapeseed and Canola are different crops.  Rapeseed is an industrial oil with a euricic acid content of over 45% in the oil, whereas canola must be under 2%.

-GMO's are not Franken-foods so much as mis-understood foods.

Stephen Jay Gould on 'native plants'.

"This paper seeks to explore the context in which biodiversity emerged as an international political issue, a step that more conventional regime analysis often omits. The paper traces the antecedents of the CBD, placing them in the broader, pre-existing international normative framework and the changes in thinking regarding conservation and development. It will show how the norms associated with sustainable development legitimize the inclusion of genetic material in the CBD as a market-based solution with mutually reinforcing benefits. Within this new normative environment, developing countries were able to take advantage of this framing and push their own interests forward with regard to financial compensation and equity."

--from allacademic.com

"Hybrid seeds were commonly used in the developed countries long before the introduction of GM crops. Hybrid seeds cannot be saved, so purchasing new seed every year is already a standard agricultural practice."

--from GMO entry in wikipedia

"It is surprisingly difficult to define the word "species" in a way that applies to all naturally occurring organisms, and the debate among biologists about how to define "species" and how to identify actual species is called the species problem. Over two dozen distinct definitions of "species" are in use amongst biologists..."

--from Species entry in wikipedia

""An important aspect of any species definition whether in neontology or palaeontology is that any statement that particular individuals (or fragmentary specimens) belong to a certain species is an hypothesis (not a fact)"

--from Species Problem entry in wikipedia

Do folks remember the Monsanto kerfuffle in the 90's, where that poor farmer was finding Monsanto genes in his Canola crops and then Monsanto ended up taking him to court?  Well, here is a link to the history of the event, the appeals and the current state of the situation as of 2005 (all the way to the Supreme Court of Canada).

(This all shows, tying this in with one of my favourite bits, is how powerful we are at creating reality out of ephemeral words and giving essences to objects and processes that don't have them by and of themselves.  The stories and myths we weave...the hypotheses we live in...)

The part that is troubling for me in all of this is being able to patent particular genes or bits of DNA that belong to the global commons.

Alta, you seem to know so much allready, why ask me? Doing some research on the public opinion?

Inanna, True, Why take a side on anything? How can we have an opinion? Should we just sit back and say I don't know and watch the world change itself for better or for worse? You and  I both know that feeling, of not being able to know anything. But that is a weakness of humanity as well as a strength, because if we don;t know what to think, some one else will come along and tell us what we think. And all too often, especially here in Canada, we just let them do whatever they want in those leadership chairs. Even as they brainwash us with advertizing and music. So I take the side against gmo's. It is different from grafting trees, or interbreeding sheep species.

Elanorgold,

sorry, not intending to bandwagon you; I gotta avoid that digital Maoism :3

(and yes, I do notice a tendency here, that it is part of the 'WC Social Game' to, even when not asked, to write something...someone goes "I believe in such and such..." and instead of just letting it go, someone else will write as if them believing in that automatically countermands their own belief, which they then start espousing.

Just trying to dig into the vast deserts around me (deserts being quiet and beautiful places where treasures can be found).

You will always be a gem to me.

weeds: Human beings are quick to declare something/someone a weed.

Jesus tells us otherwise:  

“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’

   ²⁹ “‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. ³⁰ Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”

For me clearly an instruction to let God do the sorting. Often enough a weed turns out to be a useful plant, i.e. as ground cover to produce mulch. Often enough, withdrawing attention can be an effective tool.

Someone here said, we are reaping a lot , which we haven't sown ourselves. I agree. We also have to deal with weeds we didn't sow ourselves, some people more and some people have less issues with that. This suggests a call for humbleness and kindness.

No, no research on public opinon.  I am a producer.  I make a significant part of my living from GMO canola.  I asked what you had against GMO's because I suspected (rightly) that many of your opinions were based on mistaken information. 

Producing GMO canola is important to me and my farm.

Just because it's been going on for the past 100 years doesn't make it right.

I don't understand why the original statement was a misconception then.  I wasn't trying to say that all GMO companies were evil; rather that there are a few large ones who have made very bad reputations for themselves.

A company that will sue you for 'stealing' their genetically-modified patent by keeping the seeds to replant sounds exactly like they're forcing you to buy their product.  Again, just because it isn't 'new' in the seed industry doesn't make it right.  I don't see how having to buy seed year after year makes a farmer sustainable and independent.

I didn't know this - thank you for the information!

Needless to say, I'd still rather have an heirloom tomato from my own garden than whatever hothouse, GMO offerings there are in the supermarket.  But I know that's a personal preference, and I don't force it on anyone.

Aww Thanks Inanna, that's sweet. Super sonic bounce back, mate ; )   It's true, we do feel the need to say something like that, and I try to remain aware of it and remain as honest and reflective as possible. It's not as bad here on WC as other forums I've visited though, where I felt like I was surrounded by uni profs or something!

Alta, Thanks for that explanation, it is helpful. Perhaps I have a few facts mixed up. I also may not be the best person to represent the whole negative side of GMO's. I am far too easily swayed to the belief that I know nothing, as Socrates said, and have never been good at debate. However, there is a ton of knowlegable writting out there, and documentaries about the ills of gmo's, and I hope that you have your facts straight on what you are doing to nature and to humankind. 20 years is not long term, a lifetime is. As a farmer it is especially important that you care for your soil, because it feeds us all.

Faeren, Thanks for that.