I think it calls for a little leaway. Pinga's response wasn't near compassionate. Better to not say anything and ignore this thread than to say what she said.

When neither side is right- I will tend to have more compassion for the person being more pummeled. Even of they're wrong...I will tend to have more compassion for the fact that they're being pummeled than for any justification anyone has for the pummeling.

"Is bad behaviour only bad behaviour in those we choose not to side with?" you tell me. Was Pinga's behaviour good and justifiable?

Hi Kimmio,

 

 

Aaron isn't an individual now?

 

 

His feelings are his responsibility.  

 

 

Applesauce for the goose and gravy for the gander.  Right or not it is how she feels.  Why the double standard?

 

 

How are we defining 'vulnerable' here?

 

In what way is Dcn.Jae more vulnerable than any other poster?  In what way is any other poster less vulnerable than Dcn.Jae?

 

Grace and peace to you.

John

Epilepsy for one...Jae has mentioned. Can make a person moody, cranky. Someone close to me has it. Also very misunderstood, perhaps bullied, and discriminated against- jobs, socially. And as a person with my own disability- perhaps there is some truth to the 'martyr' complex. Feeling out of place because...we often are. And intelligent people often not getting a fair shake in life. That's a detour from this thread but is part of the reason why I feel for Jae. Also his Myers Briggs type. I believe those assessments are very close representations of people's personalities and it does a 'team' good to understand them. Especially for 'management' to understand. He's brought it up many times- obviously important to him that people try to understand it and it's been ignored.

Hi Kimmio,

 

 

Then you aren't interested in what is right or what is wrong.  You are interested in your favourite prevailing.  You aren't interested in an end to hostilities you accelerate them.  You excuse bad behaviour in one and critique it in another.

 

 

Well that is obvious.

 

You don't care who strikes first, in fact you encourage it.

 

Grace and peace to you.

John

That's not true. And when looking at right or wrong I look at who's being more injured here- because this bad blood goes back so far- nobody is right or wrong. It is wrong to verbally slap someone back who slapped you first. No matter the reason they slapped you or vice versa. I've been guilty of it here too. It's still wrong. Both sides set the stage for this. I'm willing to bet if you went back to the beginning there are mistakes made along the way by those opposing Jae which set this relationship on the course to where it is now- and everyone's a bit at fault.

Hi Kimmio,

 

 

Of all the things Dcn.Jae has been criticized for in his time here, whether there is any merit or not to those criticisms.  His epilepsy has never been a source for criticism.

 

 

Then it behooves that individual to exercise greater self-disclipline or perhaps greater self-awareness.  The individual does not get a free pass to bad behaviour because of a medical condition.

 

 

Surely there must be better strategies to combat the feeling of being out of place than engaging in behaviours that will guarantee isolation?  And when an individual chooses to engage in isolating activity are they not responsible for that choice?  And if they aren't responsible for the choices that they have made how do others become responsible for them?

 

 

Define fair shake and identify where it is a right or even a guarantee.  I doubt anyone here can claim to never have gotten the short end of the stick.  It takes no amount of imagination to think that most here think that they have gotten the short end more than their fare share.

 

How does that excuse bad behaviour and when does the bad behaviour of one not result in somebody else getting the short end of the stick?

 

 

Those assessments determine preferences, they are not meant to excuse limitations and/or deficiencies.  In fact, they should indicate to the individual where their growing edges are and what needs to be addressed in order to become more balanced as an individual.

 

Grace and peace to you.

John

Hi Kimmio,

 

 

No doubt.

 

Holding oneside accountable and excusing the other ensures escalation.

 

It ensures that those who feel aggrieved are going to have those feelings affirmed.  It also excuses those who feel aggrieved to respond however they wish because those taking sides alternately excuse and affirm bad behaviour.

 

Until all sides decide they are going to take responsibility for themselves then nothing will change and nothing can get better.

 

Grace and peace to you.

John

revjohn is, once again, explaining this better than I can.

 

I'm just saying have some more compassion for the guy! He's a good person. He would make a fine pastor as long as his best points are nurtured and not abandoned. The art ministry he's doing sounds awesome and he'd be great at it. Pinga said a horrible thing to him. My heart sinks. People have shown plenty of compassion for Pinga's foul moods and choice words, and Chansen's insensitive abbrassiveness- hardly good behaviour. So, recognize that, call it even, and everyday's a new day and a new chance to do better. On all sides.

I dislike re-hashing this old stuff, but some things need explaining.

Kimmio wrote:

"I take his side because I've gotten to know that beneath the sometimes difficult behaviour he's a good guy with a generous heart- and like all of us- he has challenges that we wouldn't understand without making the effort to get to know them a bit."

 

How can you begin to know someone you haven't met in real life, and are encountering in a virual community?   We could all have split personalities - you ain' seen nothin' yet with mine.....

 

Expect the thread on the Wondercafe picnic at Five Oaks is long gone, but a number of us attended, about a dozen or so, including Jae and his wife.

In the thread that started after the picnic, the comments from everyone were very positive, how great the day was, etc., etc., including Jae's affirmations of a terrific experience.

 

Then one day, Pinga challenged Jae on his behaviour here  and the nastiness started, initiated by Jae, not Pinga.

 

Kimmio wrote:

"Pinga made Jae the target of scathing and injurious remarks. Not a good way to heal anything- on her part either."

 

I could very accurately change the words to "Jae made Pinga the target of injurious remarks".

 

In spite of comments made by others who attended Five Oaks, Jae persisted in his version of events that he was ostracized.  The truth is, Jae chose to sit separate and apart from the rest of us, and refused to engage in conversation when some of us tried, myself included.  We got eveyone together for a group picture and people seemed to be having fun, and so it was shocking when Jae verbally abused Pinga later on in that thread.

 

Incidentally, it was Pinga who did all the work to organize that day, and get us together.  I think I can safely say that everyone present had a wonderful day, except Jae who chose to have an axe to grind.

 

Observation here, Kimmio.  You have had some confrontations with Pinga because of your trust issues.  You made Pinga the target, even though she went out of her way to be patient and compassionate with you.

 

It is truly unfortunate that Jae, and you, as Jae's champion feel persecuted, but it is on you.   No one here is making you feel that way.  You own your emotions and responses.

 

Kimmio, without knowing you personally, I think you are a kind, gentle and very sensitive individual.    That also make you vulnerable. 

Take care.

I haven't met him but he was my 'Secret Santa'- gave me a thoughful gift- something I'd like that's not necessarily his cup of tea- that's thoughtful- and we've chatted here on wondermail. And I have good intuition. I can tell when someone's having a bad day or really is being hateful. This thread was a pissy vent- nothing more. Excuse my language. As for Aaron- Chansen's said way worse things. That'd be up to Aaron if he feels offended, not Pinga. And it could be true. He may not have responded to Jae's wondermails. Maybe he was too busy.

A fine pastor who falsely accuses?

 

Strike that thought. Pastors can be complete assholes who accuse infants of depravity and still be taken seriously in some denominations. Bad argument.

 

Get your heart a PFD. Uncritical tolerance of bad accusations is not going to happen, and I'd hate to be part of a place where it was. Sometimes, people get called out. How they respond is on them.

 

Pinga said scathing things and nowhere in the OP was she mentioned. She took it upon herself to really beat Jae up over it. I don't like seeing that. Sorry. Pinga's supposed to be or espouses to be a better role model...but that doesn't show it.

It is possible to be critical with some sensitivity. Mrs. anteater for one, is a good example here.

And chansen- the manner in which you choose to speak to people here and that you feel justified in 'calling out' everything bluntly all the time is what I am critiquing. I know you are not a bad guy just an insensitive communicator much of the time. I usually ignore it but sometimes I don't.

Kimmio, this could go on forever. Once again, I disagree with your approach, and your sentiments.

 

And that is why, even if we share similar views on some things, we have trouble getting along here. I quite often disagree with your approach and think your sentiments are best kept to yourself.

 

And Kimmio, I could say the same for you.  I've taken to merely glancing over your long diatribes.

 

True. I know. It takes me sometimes 200 words to say what some can in 20. That's a flaw of mine but my approach isn't usually abbrasive. Sometimes, but not usually.

Kimmio, some people act like they do on - line because in real life they encounter problems. Jae is one such person,imo

 

.He asked for all kinds of help in Parenting with a step-son who was causing him distress. Many people kindly gave him advice (that he asked for)  and  a week later he would be posting the same thing again. Poor Jae.

 

He spoiled many  endeavors on WC - the picnic at Five Oaks- imo he spoiled it for him and his wife. Poor Jae

 

He spoiled Secret Santa. Didn,t get his gift. Poor Jae

 

He registered one year, sent his info, and then when he found out I was organizing it he backed out. Poor Jae.

 

There is a pattern. Poor Jae. But Jae  has brought it on himself. It is a game. I play Farm Town. Jae plays WonderCafe If you are reading Jae, listen to Rev John, Chansen, Gecko and Pinga.

 

Apologize  and ge on with  it. . WC2 is not another  game.

 

 

Conflict is what drives folks - more than anything else, it gavinises us into action.....

 

All forms of art illustrate this.

 

Wondercafe illustrates this  - just observe how the comments speed up when conflict is involved.

What "side" folks choose to be on is, in one sense, immaterial.

Like bees to a honey pot we all swarm and buzz around......

 

Poor fella Jesus.

He wanted love to be the driving force.

Conflict killed him........

Pilgrim's Progress, 

Per the stories, Jesus wasn't someone to sidestep an issue.

 

 

He didn't choose peace by say... ignoring the money changers.

 

An anus or asshole has a certain function.    It is to expel waste.   Most of us do not wish to see that shit on our travels.  We might name it, "hey, watch out for that dog shit on the path", or look askance at the person who doesn't pick up their dogs piles.  We also don't want to smell it..."who gets to change the diaper next"

 

 No one wants to play in or look at, well, unless we are a doctor or a parent of babies or a senior with health issues..(ever notice how all 3 groups seem to  discuss the various textures, frequency, smell, colour of bowel movements?)

 

Sometimes, the anus can't control the waste being expelled.  Bellies rumble as we hear the ominous sounds of what is surely coming our way.

 

Diarrhea spews over everything.  (Ever see a dog that has got into chocolate.  Trust me, you do NOT want to be cleaning a crate after that occurs). 

 

In wondercafe when shit is deposited, there are those who will hold their noses, walking by, presuming that the everyone else will.

 

There will be those who say "hey, there's shit here". Some will walk around it, others will try to clean it up.

 

Some of us will say, hey anus, you should of done a better job of holding onto it.

 

Finally, there will be those who defend the anus, stating, they cannot help what they did.  

 

Truly, that is a legitimate thing to say for both babies and seniors without faculties.

For most of us, it should be an unusual occurrence, caused by temporary ill health.

 

If it isn't, then we wonder, is it the teenager putting the fake poop on the church hallway, or a poorly trained creature.

 

 

Delete duplicate see below

thanks Pinga, now you've got me thinking of the talking rectum from famed Canadian filmmaker david cronenberg's "Naked Lunch" :3

And Pinga you've made your own doo doos sometimes. I've yet to see you apologize. Just sayin the rules don't seem to be the same when you encounter a pile as when you drop one. Your retort to Jae was doo doo.

2 pooped 2 participate...

 

Aaron will be missed

He has an account at WC2. He's likely to be a sort of UCCan liaison.

 

Do you know something about his health that I don't?

 

No. He didn't. I tend to think his comments were probably hyperbole in a lot of cases- due to the time and place- and some stories mythologized. You saying horrible things to Jae is hardly like Jesus challenging the money changers, though. Your bite back was 100 times worse than the nature of this thread, IMO. It was harsh and over the top hurtful. I think the thing that bugs me so much is that you say hurtful things with your head held high, almost proudly, with impunity, and expect that people- like Jae- should apologize and correct their ways. You seem to think you have nothing to correct. Correct?

dup post

 

Kimmio, I have said to you in the past, and I will say again.  An apology is when i do not expect to do the behaviour again.

 

I will be blunt and direct again  if Jae plays that kind of game again.

 

Do you see me asking Jae to apologize?  Nope.  An apology only has meaning if there is intent to change behavour.

 

Do I hold my head high?  Well, I am not embarassed by my post if that is what you are asking.  Do I wish that I had written it better.  Sure. I wish that I had the humour of others or the patience of others. I don't.  

 

Yet, I am thankful we only had one post that kinda resurrected the crap that was in the discussion int the post.  I am fine with folks discussing if it is reasonable to use the word asshole, or to use the word asshole when referring to someone.  

 

At least we aren't rehashing the contents of the post.

It was more the comments about him being a pastor. The word asshole isn't much worse than jerk. I know that his vocation means a lot to him- he will do great were he is supported to do his best and respected- and you decided to hit him where it'll hurt most. That's something difficult to reverse. Had nothing to do with the OP. You weren't even mentioned in the OP. Seemed to me that was just a low blow for the sake of being hurtful. I picture you storming into the room, Jae feeling lingering feelings of hurt and upset- his head in his hand, feeling like he wants his hurt aknowledged, resolved, something...and you storm in and insult the very thing that's bringing inspiration to his life...and reinforcing everything he expressed in the OP. That's what I picture. That's where I'm coming from on this. I think Jae is a great person with some issues- we all have them. You could be a little gentler in your approach. That is all I am saying. Your words sting a lot. I regret some harsh words to you. I am sorry. I sense you have a thicker skin and think playing hardball is fair game. I don't.

Lol! Nice. Perfect.

An apology is about feeling bad about hurting a person. It's about what you did or said that injured- not about predicting the future of what you will do or say, if and when at some other point in time someone says or does something that provokes you to want to respond the same- therefore trying to think ten steps ahead as to whether the person might provoke you again. It's not a "let's wait and see if he ticks me off again and then I'll determine if I feel sorry." it doesn't work like that. It's feeling remorse in the present. It is about here and now aknowledging what you did or said was hurtful, aknowledging the hurtful thing itself, and not wanting to be hurtful like that going forward- an apology endeavors in good faith not to repeat the behaviour for the sake of the person being apologized to. It is not a hard and fast promise for the future- I don't think it's supposed to be. it's an aknowledgment of something you did in the past that hurt someone that affects this moment now. You don't know the future- the best place to start is now- not trying to predict a year from now. Maybe your empathy and apology will affect the course of the fiture for the better- where it would not without it. But that's not even the point of an aoplogy- just a possibility. You either feel bad now that you hurt someone, or you don't- that's up to you. You own your empathy as much as your anger- you can choose. But if you're going to feel for them you have to take the angry wall down.It is about here and now recognizing and feeling that something you did or said caused injury in some way and it is not conditional upon another's behaviour to you- it is simply about you feeling remorse- empathizing- for the hurt the other feels following your words or actions. You feel remorse when you are able to recognize the pain you caused and put yourself in their shoes- not conditional upon them doing the same. If they do great- but that condition shouldn't be there determining whether or not you feel remorse or empathy due to your actions or words or not.

As far as I know, he sat down to have supper with them when everybody else despised them.

There are too many words made here to justify and rationalize that insulting people is good for them.

I find it equally insulting to discuss someone s character publicly on the net. So I won t be contributing to this any further.

Hi Kimmio,

 

 

That is eye for an eye stuff.  Anyone is free to gouge out my eye and so long as I only go after one of theirs it is fair.

 

What is upsetting is not the fact that I have lost an eye or even that somebody took it from me unjustly or unfairly it is the fact that I might not stop at taking just one of theirs.

 

I really hope I'm misunderstanding you here.

 

And if I am when you come into a brawl already underway how do you know who is taking more from the other and therefore wrong.

 

I mean once me and the other guy both had two eyes when does evening the score not hurt somebody?

 

Grace and peace to you.

John

Hi mrs.anteater,

 

 

Was that before or after he braided the whip and flipped the tables?  Where they even the same group of money changers?  Are we possibly conflating stories to develop an artificial universal principal?

 

Maybe it really isn't the profession that we should be looking at but the, uh, character of the individuals displayed.

 

Grace and peace to you.

John

Hi Kimmio,

 

 

Well, it can be.  That isn't necessarily what an apology is.  An apology can be sorrow at being caught doing something one should not have been doing.

 

What does apology mean in the absence of repentence?

 

Since apology doesn't unsay what has been said or unbreak what has been broken how does a mounting pile of apologies compensate for an increasing number of fractures.

 

One would think that at some point sorrow after the fact might be better placed in a proactive space so as to avoid the necessity for apology.

 

Grace and peace to you.

John

I think an apology to a person generally about feeling remorse for having done or said whatever the thing is because it was hurtful in some way. If you don't actually feel bad about it you can't sincerely apologize. As for repentance, like I said, an apology endeavors in good faith not to do the thing again, but it is an apology for something that already happened that is affecting a relationship now. I would hope the good faith endeavor is pro-active and lasts into the future- but the apology is about the thing past. Because when someone apologizes to me I assume they do actually feel bad and aren't just saying it, that their memory will serve to remind them not to do the thing again- but I am not thinking really about a year from now, just now.

Two people are having an argument in a bar. One appears to be more level headed and reasonable. The other seems to be arguing just for arguments sake- but he doesn't think so- he just can't get his point through. The unreasonable guy gets on the reasonable guys last nerve and socks him in the nose a few times and calls him names while he's at it. Reasonable guy has just become unreasonable guy- and I care mostly for tending to the bloody nose and think originally 'reasonable guy' should apologize and make the effort to understand unreasonable guy so this never happens again- if reasonable guy is indeed so reasonable. I'm not usually the type to say, "Well. He deserved it. Before I apologize I'm going to wait and see if he gets on my last nerve again. If he does, I will feel perfectly justified in socking him again." I don't think that's right. And I care more about who has the bloody nose. The person who dished that out is most in the wrong, IMO.

And if unreasonable guy had gone around in the past socking many noses before, would that make a difference?

At the point of the nose socking- yes. But I think that unreasonable guy doesn't sock noses with such vehemence. I think unreasonable guy has reasonable arguments that always look unreasonable to reasonable guy because there is a misunderstanding or personality clash, or reasonable guy has more friends in the bar to bolster his confidence, and the more reasonable guy denies it, the more irritating unreasonable guys attempts to be understood become for reasonable guy. Really, they both look unreasonable to me- but whoever causes the bloody nose at the time, moreso.

Hi Kimmio,

 

 

And if it is the unreasonable guy who resorts to violence that also is the fault of the originally 'reasonable guy'?

 

All things considered it is probably easier for the 'reasonable' to accommodate the 'unreasonable'.

 

And yet, it takes two to build a relationship.  

 

Normally that would be two working together.  That work should be easy if both are reasonable and contributing more or less equally.  It would be a more difficult row to hoe if it is an unreasonable individual paired with a reasonable individual because only the reasonable individual is expected to accommodate the other and it would be a disaster if both were unreasonable because then nobody would be responsble for building a relationship.

 

The short-cut you appear to advance is that the reasonable must carry the unreasonable no matter how difficult to lift or determined to be dropped the unreasonable chooses to be.

 

Again. no expectations from one and nothing but demands placed on the other.

 

And when both noses are bloodied is there equal care to tend to both?

 

Apparently not because then it becomes an issue of whose nose has been bloodied more bearing in mind that reasonable blood is not on par with unreasonable blood.

 

I must be missing something.  This set up is dysfunctional.

 

Grace and peace to you.

John

The way I see this thread is...Jae gave people a little poke and Pinga especially, stormed into the room and gave him two black eyes, a broken heart, and a couple of others contributed to few cracked ribs. That's how it looks to me. So maybe after he heals from all that, he can repent? Really? I feel bad for Jae here- even if he did poke at nerves- the powerhouse that pops up and acts like a little gang, pummeled him.

Or maybe unreasonable guy came in, socking punches randomly at people.  Sometimes unprovoked, other times when they were actually trying to do something nice.  People get fed up and a bit of poking now leads to a heavier response in return.  Someone who comes in after and didn't see some of the earlier attacks doesn't get it.

I hope I am part of that powerhouse because Jae relly needed to have his heart broken. Are you kidding? Did he tell you, Kimmio, that his heart is broken? How can a real heart be broken virtually? Someone needs to get a life.