*cue ode to joy music*

Stardust I am glad you posted it. It brings a lot to light. Mostly that we all take ourselves way too seriously. And has had me take a look in the mirror. My goodness the endless chatter on that thread and this one. And the same complainers are still complaining about the same thing and the same good cops and bad cops are still doing their thing, and fists are still shaking, and fingers are still pointing, and philosophers still philosophize it, and psychoanalyzers still analyze, and the bleeding hearts still bleed...wow.

But I also think it's still true that Jae has been treated meanly, and has been misunderstood, and if others feel he's done the same it's no excuse.

Reminds me of Colbert's character...my favourite fake pundit/ TV 'troll'...even though everyone who watches his show and then appears on it, knows he's pushing buttons they quite often still get befuddled and upset by him. And people are actually a little stunned to realize that he's a nice guy underneath all that- when he's "out of character"- and are just plain confused when he fades in and out of character- but what his character manages to do is highlight, not just his behaviour, but everyones' reactions to it, the true colours come out- and they all look silly, and the whole thing's just amusing, to the non-participant observer.

And as I was looking that up thinking he performed it on Sesame Street, but that was actually "Superstition", I found this. I think this one's meant for you Jae. Lol. If the joke's on us, heck, I can't be upset. Cheers to you. You are funny, and intelligent. And a good guy behind the avatar(s). I'm sorry it so often gets missed. I think I've caught on...The whole thing, when you're "in character" goes something like this, right?

Imagine if WC were just one big Muppet Movie? Pinga...great job in the opening sequence. You're good as the female KGB...and if you can't laugh about that...you're missing out! I don't know who I'd be...probably Beaker...or Fozzy. Maybe Miss Piggy on a bad day. Rev John and chansen are Statler and Waldorf...CH could be one of them too. Inanna...is Animal of course...no, actually you're that other guy in the band. The funky dude. And those are all the characters that stand out...anyone else? You getting this? Suspend reality...and it's actually pretty funny, this whole WC.

No, it goes to show that the same stuff occurs, the same defenders come to light, as people say, "thsi is crap".

So, stardust, you should have kept that thread here.   For those that want it.  http://www.wondercafe.ca/discussion/church-life/united-church-and-me

As, the behaviour predicted from 2010 came to being.   Some people were able to ignore, but, others got tired of it.    The distractions, the frustration with trying to have good conversations being sidetracked.

So, Kimmio, the only thing that shoudl go with that thread is the long line of apologies for behaviour, or the threads that were fully deleted because they were so bad.   

Maybe should go along with that thread is the people who said "i've had enough" and walked away.

So, if we show disrespect, it is disrespect well earned.

You asked, earlier on, about the kid that thumps someone in the nose.

I remember sitting in a principals office with my husband, and the discussion was...it was time to tell our son to protect himself physically.   If he had hit the bully, knocked him down, he might have been suspended.  He also would have received a big hug and a "i understand" at home and in the school.   

There are times when even the gentlest will say, this is crap.

y

So, yes, we dismantle this one here., it is ok to reflect on what we have tried, and how we have failed.

But, I see here that you are taking it way too seriously, you get way too mad about it- now, just as then- and are heavy handed- and I think that approach stinks. Sorry but I do. I react to that. That approach in itself is a bad attitude in my book. Jae looks like the prankster kid- and you're like the nasty school master. I hope you're not always like that. People say you're not- but for me- you actually make me feel more upset than Jae does. It's a misunderstanding and clash of personality types. As a fellow introvert, as Jae is, who tends to only get anxious around extroverts who feel a constant need to "put their foot down" or be gregarious, I can pull it off- but I do feel a bit alien- tough talk does not help and is unnerving. In social situations, I am the shy person in the corner unless I know one or two people well enough- then I might appear more extroverted, but I am not. I could suffer through an outting with a group of strangers- marvel at the effort and energy of the organizer, realize it's a good bunch of people, but if I don't connect in an introvert- sort of quieter less outgoing way with some people who I spend some time in interesting, usually a bit deeper than surface and platitudes, conversation with...truth be told...I'm going to recognize that it was a great event...for everyone else...but for me it truthfully wasn't that great. It was draining. I live with that. I understand that. Maybe Jae tried to express that, was misunderstood, and from there just made a farce of it all...I don't know. But what does stand out is that nobody's characters have changed at all...so I just have to laugh at the farce. The Muppet Show.

Kimmio stated:

"But, I see here that you are taking it way too seriously, you get way too mad about it and are heavy handed- and I think that approach stinks."

Seriously, Kimmio, that has been your response in some of your posts.  You really have a bee in your bonnet regarding Pinga, don't you!

Maybe the two of you need a boxing arena set up so you can duke it out! 

Nah. I'd rather just walk away when WC shuts down. I'm tired of it.

Kimmio, how would you feel as Jae's Secret Santa, you sent a gift, he never got it and years later he keeps bringing it up?

I don't see that type of behaviour as funny or the result of a genius.

*blinks*

You're not laughing, you're posting. Incessantly. And you're emotional about this, but emotion doesn't make you correct - it makes you emotional. You won't stop until everybody agrees with you.

Almost nobody agrees with you, and we aren't going to agree with you. Primarily because we think you're wrong. I think your approach promotes destructive behaviour and pushes away good people doing good things so malcontents aren't offended.

And that's fine. Really, it is. More posts are not going to change that. You've explained your position perfectly well. We understand what you think. I personally think it's bullshit, but I understand it.

I complain too much. Pinga comes across as the "if they cross me once more I'm going to hunt down every post and shame them until they cry uncle" type. I'm not too fond of that, no.

I don't care if you agree with me. It's the way you disagree that bothers me. I just wish coming here didn't disappoint me and feel hurtful so much because I've actually grown attached to many here. Even you, chansen. So, I will find the comedy in it. I think maybe in his own way Jae has done the same.

Nope. Pinga defends her actions in good faith, as I think many would. As I do. If you've got a bullshit complaint against me, like Stardust did recently, I'm going to point out why it's bullshit, in no uncertain terms. Where I've been wrong, I've admitted I'm wrong.

You want me to stop doing that and be more like you.

No. Won't happen. Stop asking.

And once again you exaggerate, Kimmio.  This has become a soap opera.

If this place is such a disappointment, don't come, but don't put the burden of your discontent on us.

Everyone else here would shrug their shoulders and move on. What was it, a max of $10 gift? So now someone has to re-buy it and courier it, so the other person isn't offended?

It's a game, using standard postal service to keep costs down. Didn't get your present? Laugh about it. Turning it into multi-year grudge is insane. As the intended receiver, I'd be mortified if the sender did that on my behalf. Tell me what you sent, have a laugh, and that's the end of it.

The moral of the story? Don't be a dick, and people won't treat you like you're a dick.

Incapable of not being a dick? Yes you are. Work on it.

I give Jae way more credit than you do. I think he can avoid being a dick. You don't.

If I didn't receive mine- I'd let it go. But I would feel left out if everyone was discussing and laughing about their gifts and I didn't get one. Even moreso if I already feel a bit alien. I would keep it to myself, though. I would laugh it off, but deep down I would wish that I received one so I could feel closer to the group. It wouldn't be so much about the material gift as about inclusion. Probably left over feelings from years of not being picked for the team, not being able to go on that hiking trip, etc. I know that's part of what's shaped how I am. Things others take for granted maybe I don't and so I understand others in the same spot. As the sender, I would feel terrible to put a person in that spot imagining how it feels to be left out- and send them a new one.

Yes. If it's a $10 gift ($10 is not that cheap to me these past couple of years anyway) because it's the spirit of the thing that counts- and so by not making that little extra effort you're telling a person you don't really care. Which, apparently you don't. I did not sign up for Secret Santa for two years because I had so much going on I didn't want to commit and not follow through. I was in a sweat that the person I sent to might not like their gift, or they might think this or that maybe I should have got the other thing instead, some people got two things maybe I should have sent two things do I look cheap?...that's how I am.

Not Courier. Express post- an extra 5 bucks or so. Maybe more in bad weather. Worth it IMO.

You're just the type of person that makes me anxious- it's a wonder I'm fond of you chansen. I see your caring side too- but you have a hell of a take no prisoners (or take em all) approach to people. I can't wrap my head around that. There are gentler ways to deal with conflict and here it's not practiced so much. Maybe I keep hoping it will be.

There are a lot worse ways to deal with conflict. Many here have shown extreme patience already. Patience wears out. Patience should wear out, or all you're doing is accommodating idiots all day long. You go do that for us. I'm not interested, and I'm through discussing this with you when it's clear the only thing that will shut you up is complete agreement with your vision of everybody skipping hand-in-hand with the people taking pot-shots at us.

That's not true. You can be clear that you're disappointed, yet sensitive to another's feelings if you know they are sensitive- at the same time. You don't get it. I am sorry about that.

Oh My God. Wondercafe came in with a bang and crashed ( remember that?) and now in the last days  this thread  reminds me of the beginning. Pushing, Shoving, badmouthing.

Is there a T Shirt for the guys that stay to the bitter end.

And Kimmio, if you are leaving, leave. If not, then quit your bitching and move on. I am sick of this. Jae moved on. He is on WC2 having a grand time. He is Mr. Nice Guy. Will it last? Who cares. It is virtual and we are loving it.

In fact, I have been having a great conversation with Jae about a parable. This is what WC2 is about - conversation.

Thanks you one more time to Chansen, Pinga, Mandalla. and Chemgal for her special expertise. and aaron for his past work.

It's not bitching. And I've always seen people here as real human beings just like real life. I assumed they care just the same either way, or not, either way. Puzzles me that you don't feel that way CH- as you say it's not real just virtual. Peshaw to that. If that's true I don't belong on social media then. I am pretty much exactly the same in RL- but I am a bit shyer to speak than write. Same annoyances, same good points that I might have. It's called expressing and trying to find middle ground after a lot of ups and downs. Parables are interesting. But since this got personal...here it is. I am not on WC2 so I am here in this conversation. And so....I will leave my gripes here and move forward in real life. I wish things ended better but those are my honest thoughts on the whole experience. I'm too heavy hearted- but I don't like heavy handed. I'm glad you are having a good time there. Enjoy. Take care. Maybe see you in several months.

There were fun times, stimulating conversations, and supportive times. Thank you all for that.

"we are spiritual beings having a human experience"

--de Chardonniyan the mystical drunkard

No...no. I don't think you think what I think I think...I think. I do not understand what you wrote. Who's the finger, who's the moon and where am I situated in that metaphor?

Not a problem with sex workers. Sex workers are human beings. I would like to see the demand for their 'service' go down and better job opportunities for marginalized women. More equality in general and I firmly do not believe sex work has to do with equality. Strong button. Can't get past. Not changing. I have a problem with sex as a paid service. A problem with people being exploited. And that won't change. I don't want to have the discussion about it over again with the same people who will not change their view either- there's no point. We can talk about something else. Fair enough....no talking politics at Christmas dinner...I can do that too.

My satori is that no...I do not find this a game, it's real, real people, but I am capable of having a sense of humour about it. I'd rather laugh than cry. I see why Jae kind of made his own world here. Even to everyone's shagrin. I kind of get it. And we are are all pretty funny in our own ways. Anyone reading this thread and the 2010 original as a lurker, a casual reader for entertainment- it might look like the muppet show.

Kimmio,

I point out that us writing aboot sex workers aren't actually sex workers the real people :3

One of your buttons in that thread was sex worker (the moon) caused you to feel certain ways (the finger) that caused you not be able to communicate effectively because you were so focussed & attached to the finger :3

And 'game' in the sense that I am using it is for our behaviours.  All of our behaviours, thoughts, feelings, can be thought of as play.  A game.

We are *taught* later on in life that 'game' means 'not serious' and 'not real' or 'just funnin', when, really, it isn't :3  Remember what it was like to be as a child ?("...become like little children and enter heaven...")  We are still playing as adults, we've only been taught that the games we are playing aren't games anymore (look at my frows of worry on my forehead!  my job is real and important! grr!  taxes!  the environment!)

tell someone that they're playing a game and upset could happen.

Another social norm of our culture is to not pay attention to our social norms.  To do so is a violation which can result in real stress.

All of us are playing out roles.  Mother, father, lover, man, woman, neither, canadian, etc etc.  The word person comes from persona, meaning mask...those ancients knew what was really going on...

When our social norms are violated, stress can happen.  So when we think that we aren't being taken seriously, being laughed at, being 'objectified', etc...

None of us are causeless causes -- distinct progenitors of identity.  Tho that is a social norm that we are taught.  We exist in relationship to various things like our history, our culture, our society, our neurology, our biology, the time, what we have learned, our health...

As we learn to pay attention to all these games we all play, we can eventually learn to not be so attached to them, and learn to more intentionally play games...

Like the time when I was projectile sick from both ends.  I had locked myself in the bathroom, feeling miserable, when it came to me...I started laughing after each bout...and it was a lot better.  I realized how absurd it was, how silly it was...and I survived.  Because I was lucky enough to recognize the game that was involved...

Another social norm is that when someone uses fiction or humour, important truths can be more readily accepted, as opposed to people ordinarily having to deal with their sense of personal insult, uncomfort, etc.

Games are powerful.

Social norms are powerful.

Humanity is powerful

Signed,

Dr. T and the Electric Mayhem

I took a look at the new site. It looks nice. The conversations are polite. It's good. I just think I'd rather not participate. At least for awhile- until I've had some time and space. Like a break up. We can be friends again, differently, down the road. But not now. That's how it feels. (not you Inanna- this place overall- which is composed of all it's people)

Inanna. Not getting it today. You're being sick was being sick and I'm glad you survived. That's not a game. That's called being human and vulnerable to getting a stomach bug. If the 'game' is to do your best to survive it...well...okay. We all do that. We all get sick from time to time. It's the kind of thing you can laugh about later- even through it (for me someone would have to make me laugh)- but I don't see that as a game. I wouldn't call it that, I guess. I feel genuine concern if people are sick- is that a 'game' too? I don't think so. But...I am not putting much emotional distance between myself and the person who is sick when I feel for them. Like a doctor can do. I couldn't be a doctor. My God, would i get depressed. And the downside to being a doctor is they can put too much emotional distance between themselves and people in their personal lives- because they have learned to- to protect themselves and enable them to do their work. It becomes habit. But then emotion is cut off- relationships depersonalized. The comedian sort of does the same. I get it- but on the other hand- that's an extreme too. Has to be middle ground, where you can be real and vulnerable.

End of diatribe.

Happy gaming,

Dr. Teeth and the Electric Mayhem

Thanks. Good guys. Interesting people. I have thought that- we are 'human centric'- of course we are. We're human. But that there isn't an objective truth unless one is able to see how everything sees. So, then scientific observation is but human centric. It's as close to objective truth without "God's eye". We can try to simulate another being's experience of the world- but only from our experience- and only a simulation. However, two people similar in character and environment will see closer to one another's view, than two who are far apart in character/ environment/ culture. That's all fine and good but everyone wants a place to fit- and sometimes, have you ever felt like you were in the wrong puzzle- that you got mixed up in the wrong box when someone was tidying up the table? Lol. ;)

"In the book of life, the answers aren't in the back." - Charlie Brown

Thank you for this thread because...mystery of mysteries...it reintroduced me to the Muppet Show. It's sooo funny. Humour in it that went right over my head as a kid.

Inanna, maybe you'll find this one funny.

What I should of writ...Though I had thought of staying to the end  - this is my farewell to Wondercafe. Thank you WC for this our time together. Thank you for bringing people together in a number of ways - both on the site and off. Thank you for sharing information about the UCCanada with its members - adherents - and the rest of us. Thank you for providing a place where we all could express and discuss our beliefs - or lack thereof - and have the opportunity to learn from each other. A special thank you to Aaron and whatever other Admins there may be for all your hard work in facilitating the conversation at Wondercafe. All the best in the future to you. Thank you WC - it's been an interesting ride. Yep - that's what I should of writ... something more like that.

Hi Dcn  Jae

This latest WC assessment post  above  is all fine with me. I'll pretend the OP never happened.

I don't think its that unusual for any of  us to be of two or even three minds about a certain event or happening on occasion. We usually keep the opinions that aren't so nice about other people  to ourselves. It doesn't make the silent people  any better in character  than the one  who spoke up.

You sure aren't or weren't the only person who ever wrote critically of the UC or the WC.   For example had chansen written the OP people on the WC would have laughed and accepted it as a joke,sarcasm, satire, or whatever.  ( I've no proof for you chansen...as you  require).

 Dcn. Jae I do believe you often meant some of  your comments as jokes but most of us didn't understand them that way.

If I had 25 cents for all the times the UC on here   has been cut down with a knife by a variety of people    since 2006  I'd be rich.

P.S. Crazyheart's husband wrote and told me he has been watching you and crazyheart getting all cozy on the WC2. You had better take care................

Thanks stardust and Kimmio. Thanks for understanding. Thanks for your kind words. Thanks for your grace. Just - thanks.

Dcn Jae

No charge.