I don't know if it's a matter of law, except requiring that washrooms be handicap accessible in public buildings. 

I think it's just a social given, a rule that we maintain ourselves. No one gets arrested for going in the wrong washroom, and it's up to mother's disscretion at what age to stop bringing their sons into the women's room. We sort of go on the looks of the other women. It was a tricky thing for me, cause I felt unsafe sending my son alone into a potentially dodgy men's room on his own. You never know where pedophiles might be lurking waiting to prey upon a mother's moment of ill judgement. More than once I did call into the men's room with an "Are you ok?", or asked a decent looking man if my son was alright in there.

And I've used the men's room when the ladies' is full or locked for cleaning. So I guess transgendered decide which they are, or where they get the fewest ill looks. Womens' rooms are generally cleaner. ; )

I think a person could be charged with indecency or a misdemeanour though if they caused a real stir. If I saw a man sauntering into the women's for no good reason, I'd tell him to "Get out!".

I remember once when I was out with two guys as a 17 year old, and had to go to the bathroom. We were all drunk, and went all three together into the womens' in MacDonnalds downtown. Lots of people looked in horror, and the guys giggled to themselves while I was doing my business at their rulebreaking, but while it didn't bother me, I was glad to have them with me, they started to feel wrong about it, even drunk, and left to wait for me outside before I was done. The staff didn't do anything. Ahh, memories...

I don't know the answer to this and I want to know....I did find this article but not sure what happened. I will check with my sources to see what I can find out. http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/ontario-transgender-bill-passes-2nd-rea...

I doubt there is a generic strict law, just wondering if any of the rules are also legally enforceable.

For dance we used to use the men's washrooms.  The few boys/men would use a stall and make sure no one was changing first.

I am thinking more in terms of change rooms like at a public pool.  I know they usually have rules about ages for kids and many now have family change areas.

Ok ...perhaps I should weigh in on this as I have spent a considerable amount of effort on this issue.

As a trans woman this is a rather important issue for me (us).....

First of all .... there is, nor has there ever been, any specific law regarding gender and washroom use.     Rather this has been covered under the existing trespassing laws as owners and tennants of property do have the general right to restrict and designate use and access to their property.

Now for the law ..... (so often touted as the "Bathroom Bills")

Ontario, Manitoba, Nova Scotia, and the North West Territories specifically include "gender identity" in their human rights acts.

This means that in those provinces and territory that the right to use the gender specific facility of the gender a person identifies with is protected.    There is no need to show any documentation to do so.   More provinces are on the way or as Ontario used to, cover that right under their sex and sexual orientation rights umbrella.

Now there will soon be a new national law that will cover gender identity nationwide.

On March 20th 2013 the House of Commons passed Bill C 279.    That bill puts gender identity into the Canadian Human Rights Act as a specific category.    We are now waiting for our Conservative dominated senate to quit dragging their feet and finish passing this bill.     By the way ..... this same legislation was introduced and passed before the last federal election but died in the senate as unfinished business.

Once this bill is fully passed and given royal ascent then it becomes the law of the land and persons like me will enjoy full public access right across Canada.

There is only one exception ...... and that is places of religion.   A place such as a church will still be free to discriminate and bar me access to the washroom of the gender I identify with.  Only places specifically used as for religious purposes are covered.

However ...... a person cannot discriminate against me based on religious beliefs even if they privately own the business in question.   The UK has tested this in regards to a Bed and Breakfast that barred a gay couple because of their religious beliefs.   It didn't work.....

So there you go .... that is the current state of our laws....

I hope this helps and I apologize for taking so long to answer.

Sincerely

Rita

Thanks Rita!  I assume the laws for change rooms are similar to washrooms?

The very same chemgal .......

The law is clear ... trans persons have the right to use the facilities of the gender they identify with.   It is not based on plumbing at all.

If a person has an issue with a trans person using the facility then it is up to the property owner to assist and accomodate that person.   The trans person use of the facility comes first.   They cannot require the trans person to use some other facility.

The law is quite clear on that and has been tested in court.

I hope that helps .....

Regards

Rita

Thanks Rita!

It was the Don Cherry thread that made me wonder about this, as often the sexual harassment and voyeurism laws don't encompass enough or just aren't used.  I was thinking there must be some law about a man walking into a women's locker room or vice versa, without there being an exception of some sort.  That brought up the other questions.

Potential voyeurism is one of the objections against gay men in the military, sports organizations or other institutions were men habitually are in all stages of undress. A gay man in a locker room or communal shower or bathroom may ogle other men as sex objects. The same goes for lesbians in an all-female setting. This is not really homophobia, just an objection against being ogled as a sex object when naked.

The same objection applies to heterosexual males being present in an all-female locker room setting, and heterosexual females in an all-male setting.

Arminius, I agree it doesn't remove all cases of sexual harassment, and not just because of homosexuality.

The only people who I have seen pointing and laughing in a female locker room were males though.

In my opinion all single-stall washrooms in public places (churches, restaurants, lecture halls) should not be designated.  Use whichever one is available.  Many times I've seen line ups at the women's washroom, while the men's across the hall is empty.  And there may be times when the majority of those at a gathering are men - after the meal, before hitting the road, use whatever washroom is available.

Oh, sorry. i thought this was going to be about where to look for gender specifics.

I wonder how washrooms are designated in Scotland?   The Mens room would probably have a picture of a stick man in a skirt.  The Womens room would probably have a picture of a stick woman in a skirt.  How hard could it be to guess right?!

lol Kay! Maybe they add a Claymore to the stick man. Or a bottle of Irn Bru.

I think that's pretty lame of those churches to make the trans people use the wrong washroom. If a person feels like a woman and uses the women's room, I'm happy to welcome her.

I remember being embarrased with other girls in the girls' changeroom! Me being the only girl still wearing undershirts when the other girls were wearing bras! Apparantly I was humiliated to be walked in on by two boys once in grade 9, but I hardly remember.

Thankfully not all churches are like that! I recently went to a presbytery meeting at a church that had just finished some renovations. When I asked the lay representative from that congregation to help me find the bathroom, she pointed at them and proudly said "they're now gender neutral!" These were single stall bathrooms. At my own church, we have several bathrooms - some single stall and some multi stall. The single stalled ones are now designated gender neutral and my transgendered friends say they feel quite comfortable using any of the washrooms.

This is alos an issue for the disabled? Does one idea of gender neutral washrooms change when it is meant to accomadte the disable?

Heres a recent ecperience of mine.

 When I went to the NDP convention, I sat in the accessible seating area up front. Thios help me stayed focused not to have hundreds of people in front of me and the stage. I ended up sitting with another delegate. It was a women from Ottawa Centre, with MS who I have know since I was a teen. She was in a wheelchair, and her son was angery with her for going. Both her mind and her body has been affected by living for over 30 years with MS. She had attended evry NDP since she was a teen in the early seventies. This was to be her last one she told me.  Yet her son because he was busy, and had asked her not to come refused to help.

I found it to be pleasant to stay with her, and push her chair around, and eat with her. Howevr I uncomfortable going into the womens bathroom to help her. Not because I felt so, but because I felt some other women might feel uncomfortable seeing me in the washroom. (plus it was very crowded)  

Should men in the times they are helping womening with disabilities go in to womens washmrooms, and change rooms?

Alex, that's the type of situation I was thinking of.

I know of locker rooms that have age limits for children being able to use either room.  I was wondering if these rules (and the related laws) would make similar concessions for those who are disabled and need supervision or help.

The reasons I felt I needed to be with her, was besides her physical difficulties, (for which I would ask another women to help) She would sometimes forget where she was and she would somes have an anxiety attack. She could move her self somewhat, but at times, I felt that she needed someone with her, who knew what kind of shape she was in, and how her needs were baribale and could change at the drop of a dime.

I would wait outside, but would sometimes get distracted by others, and once I missed her when someone took her out and left her at an different place. I felt uncortable, and plooked in to the washromm sevral times, I felt some women, might have believed I was a creep. (which regardless of th situation this times, those of us with autism look like we are acting strangely.

All places don't offer accesible bathrooms.

Once a friend was travelling with a relative who needed to use a wheelchair.  They planned there route and chose some places they would like to visit.  My friend phoned ahead to check for ease of viewing the exhibits and the availabilty of wheelcahir accesible bathrooms.  At a National Historic Site she was reassured that 'all the exhibits were wheelchair friendly' and 'Yes, there were washrooms for disabled men and women'.

They paid the entry fee and discovered that most of the exhibits didn't allow access to wheelchairs (stairs into buildings and gravelled pathways).  The washroom was so poorly designed that it took three people to get the wheelchair in and then out. Epic fail that led to a scathing letter to those responsible. 

I have shared accomodations with women when they considered me "a lesbian". They did not worry about my orientation. There are some who once gender identity is talked about are no longer comfortable sharing accomodations. They say, "I would not share accomodations with a member of the opposite sex."

I want to ask, "why not?" I want to tell them I live my life "sharing accomodations" in the same body with the opposite gender.

 I want to ask if they are afraid of me or people of the opposite gender.

I really want them to think about what it means if I am "not really female" and "not really male". Because, the dilemma is that both genders can say that. It means that I am isolated, marginalized.

At places like 5 Oaks, should I be housed in the female house or the male house? If in the main building do I have a male roomate or a female or none?

See, it does not matter to me if the person in the next bed is male or female, gay or straight....  I am not scared of someone's orientation or gender expression or anatomy.

Others seem to be.

It happened last night at a sleep clinic. In the lab, two rooms are single occupancy and you are told they are on a first-come first-served basis. The rest of the rooms have two beds. I had a long drive and I was not among the first two people to arrive. I was told I could not be put in a room with a man or a woman. In a place where you are hooked to electrodes and are being videotaped,was it that I would make someone uncomfortable, was an insurance risk or was thought to be a pervert? They said they would get me a single and they did.  It meant "outing me" to a stranger. It meant telling them they would be moved because someone like me was there.

I sincerely understand their dilemma. I sometimes wonder though if people give any thought to mine?

SG ... is this place in Ontario???

SG, I'm surprised it wasn't all single rooms.  When people are having sleeping issues it isn't going to do any good to stick them next to someone who snores!  I am sorry that you had to experience that.  I wonder if there was another person who didn't fit into the 100% male or 100% female box if they would allow the two of you in one room.

It seems wildly impractical to expect to force (or cajole) a congregation into the use of gneder neutral washrooms. And that's particularly true if, as I expect, there is a variety of washroom styles across Canada.

What one can do is to test the waters (as it were), and if there is close to unanimity, set gender neutral as your church's standard. Beyond that, one has to get the members into some habit of discussion of the issue - and change as it becomes feasible.

RitaTG, yes it is in Ontario. The staff was and is always polite.  They are aware and reference me as the gender I present. There has never been a time, before last night, I was uncomfortable. I am sure they normally avoid having to address this and the fix is easy. I usually have an appointment to stay over the same night as I have a day appointment. Because of the driving distance, I go have something to eat and have a room in the late afternoon before anyone else arrives, hours ahead of them. I have thus always been in a private room. I did not have a day appointment and my late arrival combined with a full house meant I was privy to the fix.

chemgal,
I am not sure what they would do if two TG people showed up. They likely would let them bunk together.

----------------------------------

(As I typed that folks that part of my mind that gets angry and hurt says, "sure two freaks can bunk together, just no mixing of normal and freak")

I did, with humour, ask if I was contagious and in isolation. I however did not make a big stink.

One of the double occupancy rooms was occupied by a man and his fiance. Another was an elderly man and his wife. So, opposite gender people could be in the same room and attraction to the other person in the room was no biggie.

One room had a caregiver and an elderly woman. So, positions of vulnerability or authority did not matter much.

It left me feeling they worried about sex/gender and sleep revelation of genitals or something and/or that I was a  perv. More likely, it is that my being may ire, upset, bother some folks and/or open them up to trouble if there was some incident.(insurance, lawsuit...)

actually SG they have opened themselves up to a lawsuit.  What they did in your case would be considered a violation under the Ontario Human Rights Act.  Perhaps you should let them know that in order to comply with the law that they have to change their policies.   Better to have that notice come from someone like you rather than them stepping into a problem with some other trans person.    I would be willing to help them as I am already involved in helping other agencies here in Northern Ontario.

Regards Rita

RitaTG,

I have just gotten off the phone with the office. I phoned them this morning (I left the clinic before the office staff was in due to another appointment).  They just returned my call. 

We conversed honestly and respectfully about it. They were and are apologetic. They also are aware of the law. We both understand that the night staff simply made a mistake. We understand how it can happen.

The office said they would immediately remind/inform folks and would schedule diversity training (including gender) ASAP. I provided them with the name of the best corporate diversity trainer that I know. They asked me if I would be willing to also come and speak, as all the staff have a long relationship with me. I blushed and smiled when I was told that though others are not always understanding of, or respectful of, language or cultural differences I have always been and that the staff "adores" me and would feel horrible if they only knew...

The world is good and people try...

HUGS to you SG!!

Way to go! Please do consider helping with the training. Your presence there will be such a wonderful help. Please let me know if I can provide any resources or help in any way.

Rita

I will do everything I can because I also adore those folks. It is what I reminded myself of last evening. My mind went back to the initial diagnosis, its severity and my overwhelming fear... I recalled the voice in that place that said, "we will take care of you." and I knew they meant it.

I also reminded myself that I once was not used to Canada, its people, its customs, its laws, even its language (Yes, language. Chesterfiled=couch or Chesterfield=cigarette, etc)... and people could have chosen to see me as an idiot, a redneck or worse. They chose to work with me, help me, teach me. I am grateful. So, IMO I should return the patience and understanding others gave me.

SG - it sounds like you handled the situation really well!