Proper rescue technique is deployed and the post is hauled from some frigid water.

Just assume everyone is a 13 year old atheist boy grounded from video games. Then you don't trust and you don't have to worry about it. I don't think that you can have real trust on a forum because there are no repercussions in an anonymous community. I know that some of you know each other in real life, but most of us know no one in this community. So it is safe in a way, because it is anonymous, but can be dangerous for the same reasons, if you yourself let it be by reacting. Who are you trusting? You don't know. If that trust is broken, what are the consequences? None whatsoever, because the people on this form have no impact on your day to day life. So where is the problem? There isn't one, unless you let it. That's the way I see it anyway.

somegirl said "If that trust is broken, what are the consequences? None whatsoever, because the people on this form have no impact on your day to day life. "

I think you might be underestimating how much people use this site, and their reasons for doing so. I admit I was surprised too when I saw that many people felt betrayed. But I think that not trusting is my loss. I have grown up in the internet generation. I don't give trust to people online. But again, I think that might be my loss. For many people this site is a way of connecting with each other on issues that matter a lot, and issues that don't matter much. For many people, wondercafe is a daily (hourly, minutely) ritual. People have developed a certain relationship with others on the site. It does feel like a community, even this short a time into its life. There are consequences to the community when the feeling of trust that was fostered is broken.

Somegirl,

Hi,

You wrote:

Then you don't trust and you don't have to worry about it.

You can't build anything on a basis of suspicion.

The goal of this site is not to bring a bunch of people together in an atmosphere of suspicion and accomplish nothing.

Part of what it is about is PR for The United Church of Canada and the hope is that through this site we can begin to convince others that the real communities stretched out across the county are worth checking out as well.

If we presume distrust what is the attraction.

Grace and peace to you.

John

revjohn says, (from another thread)

("I'm sorry that I missed you sharing that. I do
remember Sylviac sharing that information but
I don't remember reading you post that."

John,

I am simply asking that you stop this inquisition
and leave such matters alone. Do you think that
could be possible without you questioning former
arguments and rulings again?

It is obvious you are hunting here. Let those with
the real authority here examine these matters and
stop harassing this person please. You are not
leaving these matters to the authority you claim
to be superior to yourself.

Peace.)

So, John, with regard to trust, is it just to you and
your version you are refering to?

With regards,

Village Idiot.

yo, villiage idiot...

if you want to talk about just letting go of a decision that has already been made, have i got one for you!!!

This is the 3rd time this week that I'm going to be honest and share that I am hopelessly lost and confused by this whole issue.

I neither trust nor distrust posters on this site. I just love to hear what other people have to say about interesting issues and ideas. I'm learning a lot of new thoughts, ideas, paradigms, and by and large I thoroughly enjoy it.

There have been times when things have been posted that make me angry, and a couple of times that I have been called really nasty names, but as much as that made me angry because it was so rude, I can't say I felt any sense of betrayal.

I don't know the person who insulted me as a person. If that person chooses to engage me civilly in the future, I am happy to continue engaging. If they're rude, I'll find someone else to chat with.

I can't trust people enough to put my heart on the line for them, until I have known them deeply over a long time. In person.

Is there something wrong with me?? What deeper levels are going on that I'm failing to see?

VillageIdiot,

Hi,

I've responded to the bulk of your post elsewhere I don't see any need to repeat it.

You wrote:

So, John, with regard to trust, is it just to you and your version you are refering to?

Not at all.

You don't trust me that is obvious and I'm not going to lose any sleep over that.

I didn't trust others and it now shows that I had good reason not to.

I have the answers I was looking for.

If you prefer the alternative more power to you.

Grace and peace to you.

John

An internet community is what you make of it, just like any community whether it be church, school or work.

There will be some people you connect with, who become your friends and are invited to your home. There will be others who you admire and respect and you may share an occasional lunch or company dinner. There will be others that you wish where somewhere else and with whom you may have a hostile relationship.

It really is just like life except with silly emoticoms ;o)

LB
It's been my policy to view the Internet not as an 'information highway,' but as an electronic asylum filled with babbling loonies. Mike Royko

Right on Diana
Like life, you cannot take this forum too seriously.
Unfortunetly alot of people are,
At best this forum allows honest discussion not heard because of social pressures.
At worst it gets petty and turns into name calling....just like real life.

"An internet community is what you make of it, just like any community whether it be church, school or work."

That's true but perhaps the hope for Wondercafe is for something more -- my hope was about a place where we figure out what it means to love god and love our neighbour. My hope was that all voices would be not only welcome but encouraged. I recognize how naive that hope was as, in many threads, I find myself reliving some very negative experiences that I had while involved with those with conservative and/or fundamentalist views.

I know that we are in the early days of this board and that group energy takes time to coalesce. However, given some of what has transpired, and given that my views on many topics are not mainstream at all, I find myself holding back from posting. Rather than honouring the intent in allowing all views, there are some who, it appears to me, want to win so much that underhanded tactics in arguing are used to the point where those who might not agree but don't want to engage in arguing become silent and the persons using those tactics appear to win.

All that really has happened is that, as least for me (and perhaps I'm not alone), I choose not to contribute. I think we can be about saying what our experience is, what our preferences are, some points of view we might want to consider, how we are affected by certain events or even by other postings, and say "AMEN" to all of it when we all take responsibility for our own thoughts, postings, reactions and viewpoints.

So, I would say that real trust, in this place, is going to be hard to come by for me. I don't want to live in fear -- I left fundamentalist christianity for good reasons having to do with self-care and don't want anything to do with it again. I will be posting from time to time but only with extreme care.

It's not a matter of suspicion, it's a matter of not caring. If someone who I have built a relationship with and respect, thinks I'm an idiot, or talks behind my back or whatever, I would feel betrayed. That would be someone I know and trust. But how can you possibly know, trust and respect someone on an anonymous site. I'm just saying that the person could be anyone. If someone on here thinks I'm an idiot, it is really no skin off my nose and I don't care. Maybe I am, maybe I'm not. If someone who knew me read my posts and told me I was an idiot, well that might be a different story.

revjohn,

"I have the answers I was looking for."

Care to share? Then I will know how to make
peace, war, or negotiated settlement.

Otherwise I am to assume I am next on you list
after those you have made enemies of already.

You are on a mission of personal attacks that
involve people. I do not understand why you do
not restrain yourself to the debate of issues.

Actually I see you as a longstanding and valuable
member of this community. I like you. I just cannot
stand by and watch how you represent yourself in
matters of justice, forgiveness, and fair play when it
concerns matters beyond what I feel should be your
boundaries towards others in this community.

Why you particularly? Because you seem to have a
method in your thinking and it's application.

I think Real Trust comes with time and intent, one post at a time. There are people here that I really do put a lot of trust in and care a lot about. There are people here that I respect and I am eager to learn from. There are people who just plain scare me and seem to keep wanting to rework the thread again and again around to the same old topic. I'm going to committ to staying on topic as much as possible and ignoring invitations to get into fights - that's certainly not what I am here to read.

VillageIdiot,

Hi,

You asked:

Care to share? Then I will know how to make peace, war, or negotiated settlement.

This confuses me. You have been pretty upset with me for all my pushing and you have insinuated on more than one occasion that I have a dark, nefarious purpose. You have implored me to let go and when I find what I'm looking for then you are interested.

You asked:

Otherwise I am to assume I am next on you list after those you have made enemies of already.

Paranoia does not become you.

You asked:

You are on a mission of personal attacks that involve people. I do not understand why you do not restrain yourself to the debate of issues.

On the peace issue I was content to debate how we were going to arrive a peace, you were the one who decided the thread was about forgiveness and that I was attacking harshly rather than asking pointed questions.

You wrote:

Actually I see you as a longstanding and valuable member of this community. I like you.

To prove that you are willing to level allegations and yet as I am doing the same to others you interpret it as harsh attack and petty or questionable purpose. I find it interesting that you and I could engage in similar pursuits but yours is to protect my virtue while mine is to make enemies.

Interesting interpretation.

You wrote:

I just cannot stand by and watch how you represent yourself in matters of justice, forgiveness, and fair play when it concerns matters beyond what I feel should be your boundaries towards others in this community.

Fair enough. It is beyond what "you" feel should be my boundaries. I "feel" differently. In light of no clear word from Admin that I am overstepping my boundaries I have no reason to believe that I am.

You wrote:

Why you particularly? Because you seem to have a method in your thinking and it's application.

The method brought me a public confession which was promptly deleted.

I cannot point to it and I suspect that if I shared it the confessing individual would resort the the current deception.

I got what I was looking for. I don't need you to see it or even believe that I found it.

I can step away from one of the two issues which was a pursuit of truth.

The other issue was to provide a counter balance and it was requested.

Grace and peace to you.

John

I do feel that there are those I will learn to trust, and those whom I will learn to distrust, and it will be through personal relationships, shared stories.

There are some whom I have
*** connected through & deepened, I believe our relationships through this forum (Qwerty, SpecialMom)
** gotten to know a bit, and I either have, or plan to meet in person (BusyMom, CurlingMom, RevJohn, XandersDad, Scrapper, ....)
** gotten to know a bit and exchanged emails with SG
** learned to respect, and I may never meet MadMonk, Alex, LB, RevMatt, Panantheism (process cheese), EzEd, Diana, CrazyHeart, AbPenny, Admin

(Your name missing on this list is not a lack of respect, but, rather, a time/mental state)

To me, I am keen to explore topics. Trust is important to me.
I want to explore topics, and if someone is being silly in it, then, shit, to be blunt, that wastes my time. I try to be gracious, and keep the thread going, coz, I am seriously wanting to have a dialogue.

****Warning** rude comment follows
If, though, I find out later that they were playing a game, that really ticks me off. Then i want to shout through the rooftop, what the &(&(&( were you doing. It is not right to do such mindgames. Do it with yourself, create your sockpockets and jerk off on on your own time. Don't do it on this topic.

***********************************
So, yes, I enter with trust, I enter wanting to have conversation at a level, which is hard to have in coffee & conversation, or in an average ever day study group. I get it at Five Oaks, long night explorations of faith, sitting by the fire in the Upper room or over a tea in the dining hall, or sitting doing a puzzle.

I hunger for that type of dialogue.

Me too. Sometimes it's here, and when it is it's wonderful. Sadly, sometimes it's not.

"Stay on target, stay on target"

see, there's one of the names i missed...sigh...shucks..there is another...sigh & mona.

Diana, I understand your confusion. Maybe I can clarify a few things, although I don't believe I come here with any expectation for "real trust". But I did come here with my guard down, not up. It has been proven to me that that may have been a mistake, because there are some here that are using this place as a game. I guess I feel that would be more appropriate (or less inappropriate) on a Star Trek message board, or equivalent.

As others have said, there was a hope that WC would be more than that.

Because I had my guard down, I trusted someone here enough to email them using my personal email account (which includes some personal info int the address name), at their request. I exchanged a few emails with them, having polite discussions and sharing interests. I did this because it never occurred to me they may be someone other than who they presented themself to be. Then, in a rather freaky twist of events, I discovered they may very well be the exact same user who frequently insults and berates me here. The same user who made a really cutting remark this weekend that indicated they hoped I came in harms way in the real world. So, when I suddenly realized these two users are likely one and the same person, I really caught my breath. I felt vulnerable, where I hadn't before. I felt like someone had made a fool of me, had taken advantage of my sincerity and good will. And that, well that's a trust issue.

I think there is a chasm between "real trust" which I don't expect here, and simply feeling safe and not totally vulnerable to being fooled into doing or saying things by people who are playing a game with you, when you don't even realize you are in their game.

So, I hope this doesn't come across as rehashing anything, I have no desire to, which is why I've stayed away most of the weekend, but I just wanted to clarify why some people here may be having "trust issues" as the result of the alias/sock puppet/ troll stuff going on.

Thanks Pinga! Blush! I hope I can keep it up. Yikes, Cate, I had that happen to me in a way, someone asking for my *real* e-mail and phone number very early in November. I was uncomfortable with doing that - the person wanted to explain the "real" way to read the Bible. I haven't seen that person here for a long time, and explained to him that it was not in *his* best interests to give me his phone number - I could have been an axe-murderer for all that. We assume we all know proper safety on the internet, we hope our children know, but sometimes we take for granted our own safety and privacy. That said, I have met a few posters in person, which has generally been a positive thing. I think it takes time...

John,

Don't be confused. No one is simple to me. Neither is truth
or the necessary gain from it. Not only lies, but also truth, has
a price. It depends on what we do with this truth. What of the
children of Germany and the dark shadows of Nuremberg?
Even the Jews believe in forgiveness if you do not, for in their
brave literature they have looked at humanity itself.

I no longer care if you think me these phantoms from the history
books. I know I am not. I risk diversity for the bigger risk is the
narcissistic necrophillic community - already a risk on a website
by the very nature of the technology - being advanced by some
version of truth, correct in some way perhaps, but not sufficient
to address human frailty. I do not know if you understand, or if
you care to, I simple state my intent so those who read may know
something about who I am, my agenda. There is a kind of false
memory, a false remembering, that causes us to forget - it starts
with the silencing of voices.

Stay on target, stay on target...

Luke will you be able to pull out in time???

VillageIdiot,

Hi,

You wrote:

Even the Jews believe in forgiveness if you do not, for in their
brave literature they have looked at humanity itself.

I do believe in forgiveness. I also believe in repentance. I also believe in honest discourse. The ongoing lie denies and defies any attempt at grace. I have the truth I sought. Because I sought after it and found it what I do with it is mine to determine.

You wrote:

I no longer care if you think me these phantoms from the history
books.

You cared enough to put those allegations in my mouth.

You wrote:

I know I am not.

I know that you are not which is why I never claimed that you were.

You wrote:

There is a kind of false memory, a false remembering, that causes us to forget - it starts with the silencing of voices.

Ordinarily I would agree with you. If the voices are committed to lies and deception I might disagree. That was the case this time around.

Grace and peace to you.

John

*BA waves at Pinga*

Pinga...what about me??????????????

aargh, and BA, too...see..i know better than to start lists...aargh..

That's okay, Pinga.

I am hesitant to add to this particular topic, but in wandering around the boards this week, I have seen many posts that I interpret as being writing when emotions were running very, very high.

So, a few things (as one who is only somewhat involved on this site).

Communication is a funny thing. One of my previous profs told us Informatics students that e-mail is not communication, but merely squiggly lines on a screen that we interpret as being words with meaning. As humans, we gather the vast majority of our information from others via their physical presence "“ body language is huge in this. We also rely heavily on tone of voice. Both of these are lost when we try to communicate solely through text.

Personal beliefs, faith, and religion are also incredibly emotion topics. This particular site encourages people to express their thoughts and opinions within these (and other) areas. Even in the most intimate and trusting of environments, this is a challenging proposition. Within an open forum, it is imperative that we acknowledge differences in as respectful a manner as possible. Certainly, it is appropriate to challenge and question others, but as I mentioned before, the medium of text severely limits the ability of the message to be conveyed clearly. Not only is it necessary to check our egos at the sign-on screen, but also to read our own posts/messages from another perspective (if we can) to see if what has been written could be seen as an attack. I speak from personal experience on this one "“ a couple of weeks ago I was reprimanded by a current prof for the tone of an e-mail. While I still stand by what I said, in re-reading it, I can see how it could have been misinterpreted. I am not encouraging holding back in posts or using excessive conditions, but merely suggesting that in all our communications within this forum that we look at what we are "˜saying' from an outsiders perspective before posting.

The concept of trust is an interesting one, especially when dealing with a "virtual community". Having been around a lot (and I mean a lot) of on-line groups, I would suggest that trust is not really relevant. Whether I believe that another member is trustworthy or not, does not affect my interactions with them. Whether I respect their opinions and views, on the other hand, will determine if I pursue speaking to them outside of the boards, and how seriously I take their posts.

While I highly doubt that trust will ever occur in this or any other on-line community, I would like to think that respect and civility are both things that we can expect to find and encourage in any of our interactions with others. Be they in person or virtual.

"While I highly doubt that trust will ever occur in this or any other on-line community, I would like to think that respect and civility are both things that we can expect to find and encourage in any of our interactions with others. Be they in person or virtual"

This is exactly what I'm talking about with respect to trust. I don't know any other WC participants so it's not a matter of trusting individuals with personal information, etc. For me, being able to engage here on any kind of honest level means trusting that I will be treated with respect and civility. That's not the case, hence, there are many threads in which I choose not to participate. If that's true for one person (me), I think there's reason to believe that others may be holding back from posting for similar reasons, thus, there are voices lost to the rest. That, to me, means that there is much lost when the voices of those who have something to offer are silenced through intimidation.

My sense of why trust matters, is probably coloured by the usage of alts to bolster someone's opinion. If I think someone is new, and is posting then I see it one way. If I think of them as an alt, who is intentionally placing a post to twist a conversation.

Interesting RL equivalent.
I once went to HR, to dialogue on an issue with my manager. I needed some feedback,suggestions, other suggestions for working together, and if all else failed a transfer. During the meeting, I was suprised by how much info the HR person had, ans was taken aback by how much it came back to me, and although I accepted the outcome, it was odd in how it was handled, and I was uncomfortable. A year later, that HR person took a new job, and I was in a new reporting structure. I shared with a freind about the odd situation, and they laughed out loud, and said, you mean you didn't know they were best friends? Ok, so the HR person I went to see, who knew the topic was my relationship with my manager, was best of friends with my manager and had discussed the situation at great length before I arrived. Hmmm, I trusted that the HR person had their HR hat on, I didn't know that her best friend glasses were what she was looking out through.

So, trust is built on an understanding of who you are speaking to, is truly who they say they are, and they have laid out, and/or declared their prejudices/biases.

That is a very good example Pinga, thanks for sharing it. It illustrates how I myself was feeling anyhow, in terms of the concept of trust in this context.

MotherOfFive, you said: "there is much lost when the voices of those who have something to offer are silenced through intimidation."

Very true. All voices should be comfortable adding to any discussion, regardless of how much they may differ from the norm.

A couple of questions spring to mind based on your comment.

1) Is the intimidation deliberate? Can we even tell (based on the limitations of the medium that I already rambled on about)? If so, it is basically a case of abuse, and not to be tolerated. If not, how do we work on reforming our practices?

2) What can you/I/we as a community do to avoid it? I'm not convinced that silence is the ideal response, but I'm also not sure what the ideal would be either.

revjohn,

"I do believe in forgiveness. I also believe in repentance.
I also believe in honest discourse. The ongoing lie denies
and defies any attempt at grace. I have the truth I sought.
Because I sought after it and found it what I do with it is mine
to determine."

John,

I confess I cannot begin to follow this. Do you mean my lie?
Your rhetoric, intentional or not, gives me no chance at all
of formulating your intent. I am sorry for my lacking, you claim
an absolute truth and perfection in your diatribe.

*You position, whatever your references, is a wall.*

This discussion is closed and you will only hear my direct attacks
in response to your continued project if you choose to continue
with that.

Grace and peace be with you.

Just back from hosting a "Movies that Matter" night with our friends from our community meal, some congregational members and a few strangers.....just a great night. Then, I won an ipod at Safeway on the way home! Yahoo!!

Anyway...

cate - yes, that would be a very unsettling experience. That sort of thing hadn't occurred to me; I've sent a couple of things by personal email, too, but those have been just fine, so I'd forgotten all about it. It certainly does take things to a new level when your personal boundaries have been violated.

Motheroffive - the way you have described that you cannot trust that your posts will be received with respect and civility, has been echoed by several of my church friends who will not post on wondercafe for that very reason.

I, too, would like to be able to trust that all viewpoints would be welcomed, and dealt with respectfully. For what it's worth, I always read your posts with anticipation; mainstream views I can get in the media - it is the people who think differently whom I learn the most from. I hope that this place becomes safer for you soon.

Diana wrote Motheroffive - the way you have described that you cannot trust that your posts will be received with respect and civility, has been echoed by several of my church friends who will not post on wondercafe for that very reason.

For what it is worth, I do not think you should value any remarks that do not show respect. If one posts something that is informative or heartfelt any disrespectful response is that of a prat who shouldn't be taken seriously.

In my professional life I have been exposed to a fair number of disrespectful people (that's the service industry for you). My opinion of them is the same as my opinion of those who display such behaviour in this forum, they're fools, plain and simple and I'm not really going to worry about their opinions.

I would love to see more posts from people who have interesting things to say. I will support anyone I see doing so even if I do not necessarily agree with them. The more people who post with respect the more it will drown out the other noise.

LB
He that respects himself is safe from others; he wears a coat of mail that none can pierce. Henry Wadsworth Longfellow

Well said, LB!!

I have trusted and not been disappointed with my instincts on this forum. My inexperience with flaming, sock puppets, trolling, etc. was not a trust issue, as there was not a "relationship" involved.

The information posted regarding this type of behavior on forums, has been extremely beneficial to me.

That said, I had posted enough information, publicly, that anyone would be able to track me down, if they felt driven to do so. That was naive, and my inexperience.

I think I have learned enough to enjoy wondercafe, but I would not want to be associated with this forum if the conversations are continually hijacked by trolling and flaming. No sour grapes, just fact...my time would be better spent elsewhere.

Motheroffive, I look for your posts as I learn something new each time I find one.

abpenny, Diana, and PM, thanks for your feedback. I appreciate it, since I have a pretty thin-skin and take the argumentative comments to heart. Your comments will help to counter that in future.

PM, you asked:

"1) Is the intimidation deliberate? Can we even tell (based on the limitations of the medium that I already rambled on about)? If so, it is basically a case of abuse, and not to be tolerated. If not, how do we work on reforming our practices?"

I'm certain that, with a few exceptions, it's not deliberate but rather part of the dynamic of trying to win an argument. The few exceptions are abusive however (and I recognize that we all look for different things in participating on this board), what I'm looking for is a place to reflect the diversity of the community formed here. In my opinion, that can only happen in a milieu of "respect and civility" and inclusion. That means that all views and experiences, from right to left, are accepted, when they are respectful of others.

"2) What can you/I/we as a community do to avoid it? I'm not convinced that silence is the ideal response, but I'm also not sure what the ideal would be either."

No, silence in terms of building community is not the answer however, silence in terms of self-care may need to be the response of some in the absence of respect. So, perhaps the need of the community to reflect diversity and open-mindedness suffers at times, when individuals are weighing out their own need for emotional safety.

VillageIdiot,

Hi,

You wrote:

Do you mean my lie?

I don't believe I have ever accused you of lying. I have said that you are trying to put words in my mouth and that you are jumping to conclusions but I do not remember ever having accused you of lying.

I was referencing the lie of others. Two are implicated. You yourself are not.

You wrote:

Your rhetoric, intentional or not, gives me no chance at all of formulating your intent.

I'm happy to rephrase for you if you let me know it is needed.

You wrote:

you claim an absolute truth and perfection in your diatribe.

That is your interpretation and if it is true you cannot formulate my intent it is probably best that you do not invent it.

You wrote:

This discussion is closed and you will only hear my direct attacks in response to your continued project if you choose to continue with that.

Fair enough. I'm sorry we could not come to a mutual understanding.

You wrote:

Grace and peace be with you.

And also with you.

John

RevJohn If you are referring to me I have not lied. I have constantly told you my real name is Sientje and where I was coming from. If you insist that I lied, there isnt much I can do to change your mind.

Sientje8,

Hi,

You wrote:

If you are referring to me I have not lied. I have constantly told you my real name is Sientje and where I was coming from.

You also told me, claiming that you were being honest when you did it, that you also went by Sylvia.

You have since deleted that post.

You were either lying then when you admitted that or, you are lying now that you didn't. Which makes your claim that you have not lied particularly difficult to verify.

The issue is not a matter of your birth name. It is a matter of the user name you have used in the past to identify yourself.

Grace and peace to you.

John

--- origionally posted by diana ---

Then, I won an ipod at Safeway on the way home! Yahoo!!
___________________________-

man, i never win anything.

oh yeah, congrats....

Me neither! I thought the cashier was having me on! He had to tell me about 4 times before I took him seriously.

Maybe I should go buy a lottery ticket. =)

RevJohn wrote You also told me, claiming that you were being honest when you did it, that you also went by Sylvia.

You have since deleted that post.

Thank you RevJohn. I had thought I read that and then couldn't find it again.

hmm, you can have lies by omission, perhaps a lie by deletion....

LB
"Yes, sir, a clown.... There ain't one thing in this world I can do about folks except laugh, so I'm gonna join the circus and laugh my head off." Harper Lee, To Kill a Mockingbird

lbmuskoka,

Hi,

You wrote:

Thank you RevJohn. I had thought I read that and then couldn't find it again.

I'm glad I wasn't alone in that. Not likely that two would have the same delusion is it?

Grace and peace to you.

John

Yeah, I remember it too.

I have been largely a lurker on this and other threads for some time. Once in awhile I post , but rarely do I received responses. The only place I feel safe is on the Wonder Limericks thread, where no one appears to be trying out their one-up techniques.

There are very few whose posts I have read that I would trust with any deep, personal stuff of my own. Whether from left or right, there are too many who put the boots to an opposing view. If all of us were required to use our REAL WORLD names, I think we would be less negative and irresponsible.

I enjoy the browsing, and often feel like posting. But then I find that someone has expressed my point of view, and who needs a redundant post? Keep on enjoying yourself, but keep in mind how many lurkers you push away compared with the number who risk entering in.

I have been largely a lurker on this and other threads for some time. Once in awhile I post , but rarely do I received responses. The only place I feel safe is on the Wonder Limericks thread, where no one appears to be trying out their one-up techniques.

There are very few whose posts I have read that I would trust with any deep, personal stuff of my own. Whether from left or right, there are too many who put the boots to an opposing view. If all of us were required to use our REAL WORLD names, I think we would be less negative and irresponsible.

I enjoy the browsing, and often feel like posting. But then I find that someone has expressed my point of view, and who needs a redundant post? Keep on enjoying yourself, but keep in mind how many lurkewrs you push away compared with the number who risk entering in.

RevJohn read my post again I did tell you where I was coming from. But if you feel I wasnt honest then there again, there is nothing I can do to make you change your mind.

RevJohn If you really want to know me. I can tell you this. I have no quarrel with anyone who believes what they believe. I feel threatened, when someone forces their will and their beliefs on me. As I feel everyone should be free in Christ, and as long as everyone holds to the head, I dont feel I am able to sit in judgment on them, or berate them if they do make a mistake. I always thought a minister was suppose to be gentle and an apt teacher. But if someone mocks the saving grace of our Lord and Saviour Christ Jesus, you can depend on it, I going to take up arms. As we now no longer look to Christ Jesus in human terms since His resurrection, but revere Him with all our hearts.

Sientg8 and sylviac have the same writing styles (especially in terms of grammatical aspects unique to both). Sorry to digress, but this is related to work I do and I'm not sure if anyone else picked it up.