Sexism on WC?

WC is an Old World term for Water Closet. Most WCs are designed and clearly marked for either men or women, but the trend is toward unisex restrooms. To leave the lid up or not, this is the question. For us men, anyway. Maybe we'll just have to learn to sit down and shut up. 

Arminius, it's not a question, it should always be down :)

No worries about dropping something into it if the lid is closed.

So it's decided, then. By whom? Women? What about Men's Rights?

Men never drop anything?  To me closing the lid is common sense, for both sexes!

Hi chemgal: I agree.

A male God, a male Christ, male disciples, a male priesthood—sexism is rampant in Christianity.

agreed, arminius...

when i read 'the red tent', i almost wept when i finished it for all that our society has lost.

I have found many (I'm tempted to say a majority of) Canadian males extremely sexist… I've met lots of Canadian males I'd more strongly identify as sexual supremacists. It's in the patronising or hostile jokes they make among each other about their wives, blondes, attractive women, women in management positions and politics ("they wear the moustaches") and "women drivers". And their insecurities are also vented as vitriolic homophobia. It's a style of "machismo" that is stunning for it's imbecility and charmlessness, and these guys would be considered Jurassic in more "civilised" parts of the World. I have sometimes been the butt of it because I enjoy cooking, my wife is a minister and I've usually been the main "home maker"… I've been told I should be be the "boss" in "my own home" (it's "our home") and that I probably hang out with homosexuals (as a "joke").

I at first thought this was a rural Ontario redneck "thing" but it's far wider. You'd be surprised how many people in PEI found a parade entry amusing (the police, parade marshals and organisers were clearly okay with it) that consisted of this guy driving his tractor along with a sign on the front that said "she didn't find my tractor sexy" … behind the tractor, this moron was dragging a dummy in a dress:

Are YOU laughing?

Or do you find it as chilling as I did? Or do I just have no sense of "Canadian humor"?… as someone told me at the time.

That's disgusting and totally disrespectful.   If I had my tractor there, I would run him off the road.

i'd drive along just behind him in my minivan with a dummy dressed in a black cowboy hat, shirt and blue jeans strapped to the front grill and a sign that read

' i didn't appreciate his male supremacist bullshit.'

betcha he wouldn't be smiling then!!!

I doubt they'd let you in the parade: you'd be seen as a the sort of bitching harridan stereotype that justifies guys like him and makes him so "funny" to a LOT of Canadians. You'd be launching a personal attack and you couldn't have that in the parade, tut tut no (Canadians are polite). You have to remember Sigh, that all sorts of people not only agreed to that guy's taking part — RCMP, local body officials, parade marshals, etc, but that most of the crowd watching found it funny... and they'd have found YOU funny too… right on cue. And gecko, you really think a response like you suggest would model respect? It's pulled out of the same pot.

The image it flashed up for me was the horrific lynching of James Byrd jr in Texas in 1998 — an incident I'm sure you will recall with some clarity. At least there was some objection when the two Campbellford, Ontario, Legion members won the “most original costume” prize dressed as a KKK and a black linked with a lynching rope for Hallowe'en a couple of years ago. Dumbass rednecks? Well, one of the pair, Terry Nunn, had been elected director of legal services for the Toronto Police Association in 2003 and, in 2004, was its acting vice-president. But I imagine you all recall that clearly and with deep concern too.

I found it chilling! YUCK!

the human animal is quite the absurd creation

most of their body consists of trillions of semi-autonomous units living in symbiotic competition

they walk around on their hind legs

to eat, they shove food through a hole in their head.  the hole has deposits of apatite in them

they breathe a highly reactive and toxic gas in order to power their metabolism

they see via two smaller holes in their head which hold specialized sacs filled with jelly

their insides are as wonderous as their outsides, but for some strange reason they don't think so; they even react with disgust to their insides

their body mass is supported by rods of calcium

humans are more or less the same, but because of tiny differences, whole philosophies and realities have been made around them

inside some of these creatures is a muscular factory that makes new versions of them

they are all grown according to the same base blueprint, but change depending on a certain chemical's introduction at a certain time

and how they reproduce?  it's very messy and quite funny as it seems like they are dying sometimes, but they enjoy it

I apologize. If it bothers people I will take down my thread and my post re: testosterone in one of the political threads. That post in particular was a distasteful rant on my part. It was more a reaction to war and aggression, which I am quite upset about right now...so I was imagining what every possible alternative might be to stop the culture of war....and admittedly that was a stupid thing to write. I have experienced the brunt of sexism enough to know that wasn't wise. I tried to make it humourous, but in retrospect, if it was offensive to anyone, then it's not funny.

I realize there are no absolutes when it comes to gender behaviours.

My thread about If women ran the world...again...was meant to ask the hypothetical question of what the world might look like if women had much more influence in leadership positions...I was sincerely wanting to discuss what the differences might look like...maybe there would be no differences all in all, but that's what I wanted to talk about because I am curious. I was thinking more along feminist theory (and some personal feelings of frusration which may have been misdirected)when pondering the question...but I did not communicate it well, and it took a brief detour again into campy humour. Again, I apologize, and if people would like me to ask admin to remove it I will, and I won't post any such topic again.

Kimmio, I'm not complaining about your post.  There's some gender stereotypes in your post(s), but they are far from some of the extreme sexist statements I have seen.  In my OP I was including you in the lighthearted comments. You tend to apologize the minute someone disagrees.  Let your opinions free, unapologetically!

The tractor parade is pretty bad.  It's unfortunate too, I'm sure someone (maybe not him) could have actually come up with something humorous and added a sign onto the back of the tractor.

As for the sexism on the cafe, is it related to Valentine's day?

I hate conflict and potentially hurting people's feelings. It seriously makes my stomach turn. On the other hand, there are times that things need to be said without apology, even if it is uncomfortable to do so. I can stand to get more assertive about things sometimes.

I think it's a very fair and reasonable question, Kimmio. It invites some reflection which hasn't, unfortunately, been forthcoming. 

I suspect the reason it hasn't been forthcoming because it makes a lot of Canadians feel uncomfortable. Hence the stupid "humour". 

Sexism is a very serious issue in this country and attutudes that create an atmosphere in which so many women experience domestic violence — criminal assault against women because they are women — is no laughimng matter. Harassment in the RCMP has made the headlines recently and workplace harassment is mentioned from time to time… but I suspect you can find it fairly generally.

I find it hard to believe that the talk about Islamic oppression of women is anything other than racism when the same talkers are silnt about the advertising industry's sexualisation of children and representation of women as sexual playthings. By and large, North American women are groomed by cynical fashion, "beauty" and entertainment industries to look and act like tarts. When they don't  also there are a good number of men who get quite angry about it. As a man, I hear this stuff… and it sickens me. And I've been asked if I'm gay and been excluded because I don't find sexist male banter, attitudes or jokes amusing. There are parts of the world that aren't like this… it's NOT the way reality need be.

You're doing good, Kimmio :3

I've never met any women or men; I've only ever met my experiences of people who self-identify as this or that.
 

There are uncounted different tribes out there with differing numbers of followers; there is a tribe that believes that remaining silent aboot homosexuality it akin to murder; there is a tribe that believes that abortion in any case is wrong; there is a tribe who believes that they were born in the wrong gender and so need surgery to change it; there is a tribe who wants to change gender voluntarily for artistic purposes;  there is a tribe who believes that corporations are the cause of all suffering, and so forth.
 

Each of these tribes holds certain things to be sacred (this is True because it is True) and blasphemous (this is Evil/Disgusting because it is Evil/Disgusting) and some of these might be shared by other tribes, but not necessarily so.
 

And all of these tribes are having to learn how to live together.
 

Such a wonderful world.

(I agree with MikePaterson's riff on how people have their own 'ecologies' -- learning these are a lifetime thing, I think, especially since there are so many premade 'ecological models', like 'woman' and man', to follow)

btw, those cheers you may have hoid yesterday was from Washyton State when they made gay mawwige legal :3

For me, Wondercafe is a slice of life. Our culture is pretty sexist.

The thing, for me as a trans identifying person, is that I tend to see it as an equal opportunity offending culture.

Women are either nagging shrews, weeping messes, taking over the world, or they are manipulative, a push over, a bitch, brilliant or dumb...

Men are hapless idiots or oppressors, commitment phobes or the knight in shining armour, pigs or nerds or refusing to grown up...

One might say, well if it is all there, human is what it is... The problem is that it when we have a history, a past, then it feeds and fuels. Women writers and women run shows can make the jokes from a place of power. The audience may not be in that same place. For a girl in a home where mysogny or machismo is commonplace it is not from the same place.

Wondercafe is a slice of our society. The thing is - we are talking about it, unlike offline  life sometimes.

SG, I agree that society is sexist (although it is getting better), and it is good to talk about it.  Whether the influx of conversation is truely an influx or just my perception, or if we're just talking about it more, or if there has been more sexist incidents IRL I don't know.

Kimmio, I don't think you've once hurt my feelings when I've disagreed with you.  If you do, I'll let you know, so I'm at least one less person you feel the need to apologize to uneccessarily.  Sorry if I have hurt your feelings at all by being fairly straightforward with my opinions.  In real life, I can do this with someone then we discuss something else in a friendly manner.  It's not quite the same when I step into one thread and then take off to another where you may not be.  I do respect your opinions, even when they are different.

SG,

how much of the sexism you see in your culture do you think is consciously promoted?  how much do you think is promoted unconsciously?

chemgal,

what elements need to be present for you to consider something sexist?

In Canada- I would say that it is unconscious when we watch television. It is conscious when our immigration policies are what they are. It is structural/institutional when the increased rates of female undergrads does not play out in doctoral rates due to drop-off. It is also structural/institutional when there are no shelters for abused men. Men can be abused by women and Greg Louganis taught us men can be abused by other men. Yes, men can be gay.

We can look at how men and women are socialized differently. It is not that big of a deal when female celebrities announce their sexual preferences, it still is when men do.

I do not think, as a society, we like really looking at what we create.

Videos portraying men as cheats and players means expectations are low... portraying women as peices of meat mean they can be cheats and players because women are a dime a dozen.

Yes, we moved from Betty Crocker and June Cleaver, but onwards to what? In some places it is a corporate bitch, cold and devoid... and in other places she is a slut with hardly any clothes on or she is a dumb woman taken advatage of by some guy....We simply change stereotypes.

The same has happened to men. They were all Neandrathals and rude, pushy, macho (insert plural of male appendage)... and now they are imbeciles who cannot find their arse with both hands and a GPS and would starve left in a room for a day.

Come on...  the way we treat men and the way we treat women. We need to talk, raise awareness... and finally one day reach equality not just preach it.

Do men and women equally see conflict between career and family or are we still socializing one to, or expecting one to be, a primary caregiver?  

If women outnumber men in teaching positions at elementary and high schools, does that continue into university?

I think the tractor poicture is horrific and my response would probly be a shocked and dissaproving glare to the driver.

Kimmio, You and me shall have to take sword classes together ; )  And I'm sure Trish would like to join too : D

My posts have had nothing to do with valentines day. I've just been thinking out loud, and strangely spurred on by CBC radio, as they've been talking about the very things I've been thinking about the past few days! Women soldiers, women politicians, and women in the music biz: whether they are treated differently than male musicians! Maybe someone at CBC reads Wondercafe!

I've also had thoughts sparked by my sexist male friend, who I currently would like to sock, and a somewhat recent pondering as to who my female role models were and why.

We all drift through thoughts and ideas as we ponder what we ourselves think. And we like to take a stance on things, and we should. I like to know what I stand for, yet at the same time I like to know that nothing is absolute, especially when every argument has two sides. And one doesn't want to be too ridgid either, so as to take in new ideas.

I seem to have views from both the old fashioned camp and the feminist camp, though I wouldn't say I belong to either camp. And I've been trying to pin down what I do think by being open minded.

There's a lot to ponder on the subject of men and women, our roles and our nature. It seems to be a subject that is difficult territory in our time/era. Yet I think it is worth discussing.

Mike, I hear what you're saying, and have lived in places like that too. What also bugs me, is when women think they are being in charge, powerful and confident when they choose to dress and act like tarts (Lady Gaga), and when teenage girls think such things as porn and promiscuity, and acting like a lesbian when your not one, are cool.

I think it's important to differentiate sexism (which is hurtful), from understanding the differences between men and women and seeking to find a complement in that. We are not the same. A transgender person may have a more unifying viewpoint, and have historically, by native tribes, become shamen for this reason. As a hetrosexual person myself, I basically see Adam and Eve, as different as apples and oranges, yet both tree fruits, if that makes any sence. Yin and Yang. I am the song, you are the tune... etc. And I think it's beautiful.

I think we as a culture are still shaping our structure, and haven't quite got it sorted out yet, what women do, what men do, and how we are different and the same. What equality means.

LOL! You have a way with words. I can't help but laugh, when you put it that way.

I noticed, at the post secondary level, there are probably more men teaching..more men at the masters and PhD level. Does that mean that sub-consciously, society expects that women are better teachers of children and youth, but we need men to teach adults once they enter into "a man's world"? Or is it that we think men are better qualified to instruct us about "the real world" (my personal answer to that would be 'if we're intent on accepting society just the way it is operating now, then yes..otherwise..no''? Some sort of intitiation beyond the "domestic and trivial" or basic aspects of life, and  into "real life"...where the sharks swim, and therefore we must know how to compete with them in order to have a place in society..and if women aren't "cut out to swim with the sharks", then they should be satisfied with a pursuing a career at a bachelor or diploma level of education? That;s how it feels to me. It's part of the reason I didn't pursue education beyond a college diploma (tuition was another)...because I decided I wanted to work in social services, which is largely female dominated (at the front line level anyway) and not as competitive a career, and I didn't want a competitive career (although it is getting that way as more people with business degrees enter the field). It's also not as respected or as "lucrative". Whereas, and pardon me for saying this if it comes off wrong...but if more women had an influence in higher education and leadership roles, i just get the feeling we would be creating fewer sharks in the pond to begin with, and that society would operate a whole lot differently, and more fairly...and that maybe being able to see the world through some rose tinted glasses wouldn't be such a bad idea if it could catch on and become "the new normal"...better than seeing the world through the stock market, or the worst..through militaristic strategy. Even the way politics is done, and corporations are run, is all essentially militaristic strategy  "squashing the competition", in whatever strategy aka covert plan  they can come up with to "cripple" the other and assert power over them...but people don't realize it, and just accept it for the way it is. Of course, i don't know this for a fact, and maybe that's way too biased because I am a woman, and I am also an individual with a particular worldview...it's just my feeling about it.

I disagree with the teaching at the university level.  I don't have any stats to back me up, but from what I have seen is that if it's primarily a teaching position at the very least it is equal, if not more women.  Especially if you're talking about the 20-30 something age group.  It's the research positions (and these profs also do some teaching) that are more male dominated.

Maybe that's the case in your experience, and perhaps there did happen to be more women teaching at your school, but overall profs do have to have PhD's usually...so I would think that there would be more men. I noticed more men teaching. Women lag behind in graduate level education, so it would make more sense that there are more men teaching in universities on average. At the college level, they need minimum a master's degree...again, fewer women would be eligible.

There is a difference between whether there are more men or women teaching vs how many men or women are hired for a teaching position.  I would be very interested to see stats for the latter.

You have a good point..and I actually just looked up some stats and I am wrong...so my perception is being skewed by something. Women and men are pretty much on par for post-graduate level education...however, it comes down to how many women are getting hired for those positions. Perhaps, you're right and it is getting better for younger professors entering into post seconday teaching. It didn't seem that way to me 6 years ago, but the college seemed to employ older teachers or had teachers that had been there awhile anyway.

It's the publish or perish postions that are still very male dominated.  Most women I know who are planning on staying in academia aren't even aiming for those positions, they aim for the teaching position.  The men I know plan a little more for a research position, some of them change their minds early on and others will just take any job they can get.  There are also some who also planned for a teaching position from the beginning.

Many undergraduates probably don't even pay attention to what type of position their professors have, especially at the lower levels or in faculties outside their own.

I'd love to see the info you did find Kimmio!

http://alis.alberta.ca/occinfo/Content/RequestAction.asp?aspAction=GetHTMLProfile&format=html&occPro_ID=71002000 you're in Alberta, right chemgal?

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/89-503-x/2010001/article/11542/c-g/c-g001-eng.htm

http://www.coopscanada.coop/public_html/assets/firefly/files/files/Global_Womens/FACTSHEETCanadianWomen.pdf

http://www.ccsd.ca/drip/research/supp1.htm

these are the few that  I was looking at earlier.  :)

This is an aritcle from the University of Western Ontario's paper that I came across which really explains it well:

http://www.westerngazette.ca/2012/01/20/feature_womenfaculty/

Our society is a delightful, disgusting. and frightening swirling together of many subcultures and individuals.  Sexism exists, and the media and customs have provided encouragement for it.  | was thinking about the stupid comment made by a leader in a fashion company about how this years top singer, Adele, ws a bit too fat.  Mixed with the sexism are fear, lust for control, and anger.

I have been bothered by the many cooments in the media on sexism in Islam with acknowledgement of its dominance in Christian communities past and present. As posted above, racism posing as concern for women's rights.

Interesting thoughts regarding women in teaching positions. The thought came to my mind that women always have the thought in the back of their heads that "what if I want to have kids?" Whereas men don't seem to be at all hampered by that thought. If they choose a career there's nothing, no stigma, no expectations, to stop them.

And also employers like to hire family men and pay them better than single men (I heard this on the radio) and I expect the family supporting men get better wages than the women who are earning a second income for a family, though they are doing the same job....

I was asked in an interview if I have kids. It was a somewhat informal, sort of pre-interview...but all the same, I think they were tyring to deduce whether or not (had I said yes) that would have any impact on their employing me. 

I would think that employers quietly favour single people, regardless of gender, because they might consider them to be free from the "fetters" of family responsibility...but I have no stats on that.

Thanks Kimmio!  I've also heard women discussing interview problems.  It starts right with do you wear an engagement ring or wedding band?  Ridiculous that it should even have to be considered.

my guess would be that these interviewers think that a ring on a woman means they are more likely to cost the employer more?

if that is the case, maybe the best thing would be for a woman to be up front when they get employed and go over everything that they have conscious control over that could end up costing the employer more money?

That's weird about wedding rings. I've never had that asked me. But I have lost out on jobs for having kids, and not having my own car. ANd when I did get a job while I had a toddler, then quit after a year because of daycare problems, my boss told other staff he'd never hire people with kids again.

But I think that goes more for women than for men, as women are more likely than men to stay home with the kids by choice. And I think that in many cases, for well paying permanent positions, the man with the family to support, wins out over the single man, based on the concience of the employer. It may also be that single men quit jobs more often, than married men looking for stability. That's what they said on the radio, and we have also experienced that. Stats would be good though.

However we have also experieced the opposite. The employment we had when our child was born did not wish to keep on family people, and had no leaning to accomodate our needs as a family, so we had to leave. It is a young people's career what we were doing. We still miss it.

I have a gold ring I wear on my left ring finger, but it is not a wedding band. I chose it, and Mom payed for it, at 50% off. It fit me perfectly, it was meant to be, and I wear it every time I go out as a symbol of my maturity, pride in my family unit, and more subtily, my "taken" status. Hubby does not wear any rings. He doesn't like to.

But Oh Boy! When I worked in southern Alberta, they had a problem with everything about us, my keeping my surname, my unusual rings, my working when he did not, his long hair especially that... our taste in music, my enthusiasm about Halloween... Most of all our godlessness. Wow were they crushing! I got "laid off" from that job, and they hired a squeeky clean ministers wife to do my job instead.

Elanor, how did they know you had kids?

The ring issue goes beyond kids, I know women who have had interviews when engaged and they decided to not wear it.  After being hired, sometimes the boss makes a comment about it when they wear it to work.  There are people who would prefer to not hire a woman planning a wedding.  It's hard to know why you didn't get hired, but not wearing the rings is probably a good idea for certain job interviews (sadly).

My husband on the other hand, mentioned our wedding when being interviewed to ensure he could get some time off shortly after starting.  That wasn't an issue.

I remember working for a rather upscale fitness club. There was a trainer there who became pregnant. When this was discovered by the powers-that-be, she was basically given the ultimatum: family or work... not both. They did what ever they needed, to put her in positions where she would not be able to accomodate company demands, so they could write her up enough times to justify her firing.

I got the hell out of there the following week. I could always find another job and I was fairly sure I wouldn't find another "soul" to replace my current one if I stayed.

They asked. And they asked if I was a "local girl", and if I had my own car. All that plus I'm self employed made me a no go for them I guess. Wow on the rings eh. 15 years ago, one could get a job even if you had a two week vacation planned in the first month of employment. They'd just say since you already had it planned it's ok, but you won't have any more hollidays til you've worked one year. I had that. Hubby also had that. Maybe they think since you're getting married your life is about to change, and you may not want the job for long.

There's some crappy bosses out there. One of my bosses used to hit on my co-worker. Totally grossed her out. His wife said he was allowed to look but not touch. Yuk. He would massage her shoulders, put his hand on her waist... she left, so did we.

I really enjoyed this speach Inanna posted in the Different Emotions thread, and I'm posting it here again, because I find it so true. A scientific look at the differences between men and women. Half an hour long, but really worth it. ANd I should add, that when I had my baby, my views changed.

Having a baby really pointed out the differences! ANd chemical things happened in my body and brain I had never known about. I really needed my husband to look after me those first two years, though I did have some part time work. Things change radically. I used to have views more like yours Chemgal, before baby.