Hi please don,t stop calling your self a Christion yes alot of people use Gods name badly but you are  not them you should only work on your self and stop looking at other people examples you are  not  them else if we all believers in Christ look at the ones who say im doing this in Gods name and we know its wrong its satin way of getting us who try to do Gods way to stop believing. haVE FAITH DON,T STOP BELIEVING IN jesus tgertudehe@aol.com

Christian - follower of Christ Jesus.  It was used as a derogatory term back in the early days to label those who followed Jesus.  I consider it a privaledge.  Considering Jesus loved you enought to die for you, what are you more worried about?

Wow.  I just discovered this website and I think it is just right for me.  I'm right with you with this article.  I used to call myself a Christian.  Then, for several years, I called myself "postchristian".  Now I call myself an atheist (note the lower case "a").  I still cringe when I say this - sometimes I soften it by calling myself an agnostic.  To me the former term simply means that I do not believe that a God exists - it does not imply membership in some group.  I wouldn't want to belong to an atheist group - though I actually requested membership in the atheists group on this website (the contradictions persist).  I'm not going to debate Christianity or the existence of God here.  I'd just like to say that the sort of cognitive dissonance expressed in this article is very familiar to me.  I agree with janeteholmes about the Bible supporting the kind of rigid, conservative, uncompassionate, unthinking, disturbingly-blase'-about killing-lots-of-people kind of behavior exemplified by the Bush administration.  I am, however, very sympathetic to the attempts of the United Church to find another way.  It's exactly the things that the bible believers, I used to commune with, dislike about the United Church that I find appealing.  Nevertheless, I am skeptical about the potential of these ideas to succeed in some overt sense.  I believe in "the Good".  I think that is what the author of the article and many other contributors to this site are also drawn to - though I'm reticent to suggest I can know what makes another person tick.  Thanks again for the article.

I've struggled with this deeply.  I'm in love with Jesus and want nothing more than to be identified with him.  My dilema in using the word "Christian" outside of my faith community is that it has a completely different meaning and association for the general public than it does for me.  I shudder when I hear the people around me discuss their ideas of what they think Christianity is all about.  "a bunch of people who think they're better than everyone else, hypocrites, self-righteous Bible thumpers, completely out of touch with the real world, narrow minded, judgemental, critical..." and the list goes on.  That may be who I am, but it's not who Jesus is.  

I am all those things at one time or another.  Not to mention a whole host of other behaviours that look nothing like Jesus.  But in my mind, that's why I needed him in the first place.  That's why I love him so much.  Jesus is completely in touch with reality (and not just mine).  He lived what he preached (still does).  Unbelievably accepting, non-judgemental, utterly open-minded (he's not threatened by peoples thoughts, beliefs and opinions...he'll engage anyone). 

But me?  If only the name "Christian" had a universal definition of:  Person who has failed in every way and spends inordinate amounts of energy attempting to cover her tracks, attempts to appear to have it all together but clearly doesn't, wants people to believe she's better than they are, that she's sump'n sump'n....AND THEN realizes that she's totally deficit in every way and needs divine intervention which actually was extended to her in the person of Jesus Christ who expended all of his energy living and being everything she never could be and then exchanged her broken bullshit for his perfection so she could live in wonder that  though she'll clearly never get it all together, she doesn't have to pretend she does.  And when she does pretend, Jesus always blows her cover, exposes her reality and reminds her that he loves her like she is, he's got it (her brokenness and bullshit)taken care of and living like him means total authenticity.  Because there is no fear in love. 

Maybe we're supposed to be the ones who change the world's definition of "Christian".  I just want people to know when I say who I am that it means, "Jesus is the one who has it together in every way.  I'm just along for the glorious ride" 

Was Jesus Christ Crucified???

"If Christ be not risen from the dead, then our preaching is vain, and your faith is also vain."

 (1 Corinthians 15:14)

"AN EVIL AND ADULTEROUS GENERATION SEEKETH AFTER A SIGN; AND THERE SHALL NO SIGN (no miracle) BE GIVEN TO IT, BUT THE SIGN (miracle) OF THE PROPHET JONAS: FOR AS JONAS WAS THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE WHALE'S BELLY; SO SHALL THE SON OF MAN BE THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE HEART OF THE EARTH." (Matthew 12:39-40).

 Did Jesus fulfill the only sign he gave?

What was the "sign" (miracle) of Jonah?  We have to go to the "Book of Jonah"
in the Old Testament to find out.  God commanded Jonah to go to Ninevites to
repent from their "evil ways, and from the violence that is in their hands."
(Jonah 3:8).  But Jonah was loath to go as a warner unto the Ninevites, so he
goes to Joppa instead of Ninevah, and takes a boat to run away from the
Lord's command.

While at sea, there was a terrible tempest.  According to the superstition of
the mariners, a person fleeing from his Master's command creates such a
turmoil at sea.  They began to inquire among themselves and said, "COME, AND
LET US CAST LOTS, (like tossing of a coin, "head" or "tail") THAT WE MAY KNOW
FOR WHOSE CAUSE THIS EVIL IS UPON US.  SO THEY CAST LOTS, AND THE LOT FELL
UPON JONAH." (Jonah 1:7).  Though there was a temporary lapse on the part of
Jonah in fulfilling his mission, he manfully and most courageously
volunteers: 
"AND HE SAID UNTO THEM TAKE ME UP, AND CAST FORTH INTO THE SEA; SO SHALL THE
SEA BE CALM UNTO YOU: FOR I KNOW THAT FOR MY SAKE THIS GREAT TEMPEST IS UPON
YOU." (Jonah 1:12).

Since Jonah was selflessly offering himself as a "vicarious" sacrifice there
was no need for strangling him before throwing him into the sea, no need to
spear him or break his arm or limb.  In his own words: "TAKE ME UP AND CAST
ME FORTH".  The question now arises, that when the shipmaster and the crew
threw him overboard, was Jonah dead or alive?  Any Christian child who
attended Sunday School will give an immediate reply: "ALIVE!".  The storm
subsides.  Was this perhaps a coincidence?  A fish swallows Jonah.  Was he
dead or alive when swallowed?  The answer again is "ALIVE".  Was he dead or
alive when "JONAH PRAYED UNTO THE LORD HIS GOD OUT OF THE FISH'S BELLY"?
(Jonah 2:1)

Surely dead men don't cry and don't pray!  The answer again is "ALIVE".  For
three days and three nights the fish takes him around the ocean: dead or
alive?  "ALIVE!" is the answer.  On the third day it vomits him on the
seashore: dead or alive?  A-L-I-V-E, of course!  What had Jesus prophesied
about himself?  He said: "AS JONAH WAS ... SO SHALL THE SON OF MAN BE" -- 
LIKE JONAH.  And how was Jonah?  Was he dead or alive for three days and nights?  Alive! Alive! Alive! is the unanimous
answer from the Jew, the Christian and the Muslim!

If Jonah was alive for three days and three nights, then Jesus also ought to
have been alive in the tomb as he himself had foretold!  But Christianity
hangs on the flimsy thread of the "death" of Jesus for its salvation.  So it
has to answer that Jesus was dead for three days and three nights.  The
contradiction between his utterance and its fulfillment is obvious.  Jonah
ALIVE, Jesus DEAD!  Very UNLIKE Jonah!  Jesus had said " LIKE Jonah" not
"UNLIKE Jonah.  If this is true then according to his own test Jesus is not 
the TRUE Messiah of the Jews.  If the Gospel record is genuine then how can
we blame the Jews for rejecting "CHRIST"?

The Doctor of Divinity and the Professor of Theology replies that in Matthew
12:40 under discussion, the emphasis is on the TIME factor -- "as Jonah was
THREE days and THREE nights in the belly of the whale, so shall the son of
man be THREE days and THREE nights in the heart of the earth."  "Please
note", says the learned theologian, "that the word "THREE" is repeated
F-O-U-R times in this verse to prove that Jesus was going to fulfill the
prophecy as regards the length of time he was going to remain in the tomb,
and NOT 'As Jonah was' in relation to his being alive or dead.  If it is the
time factor that Jesus was stressing then let us ask whether he fulfilled
that aspect of his promise to the Jews as well.  The Christian dogmatist
answers: "OF COURSE!"

The question arises: when was Christ crucified?  The whole Christian world
answers: "FRIDAY!"  Is this the reason we celebrate "Good Friday" --
"Gooi-Vrydag" -- as a Public Holiday in the Republic of South Africa?  And
every Christian nation from America to Zambia, from Abyssinia to Zaire have a
Public Holiday on the "FRIDAY" at Easter.  What makes "Good Friday" so good?
 "It is the death of Christ on the cross on this day to wash off our sins,"
says the Christians.  So he was killed on the cross on a Friday, 1950 years
ago?  "Yes!" says the Christians.  From the Gospel records we gather that the
Jews were in a hurry to eliminate Jesus.  Hence the midnight trial, and then
dispatching him off to Pilate in the morning; from Pilate to Herod and then
back again to Pilate.  The vested interests were afraid of the general
public.  Jesus was their hero.  He had been their benefactor.  His enemies
had to do away with him quickly, and succeeded in doing so.  However, as much
as they were in a hurry to hang him on the cross, they were in equal hurry to
bring him down from the cross before sunset on Friday because of the Sabbath.
 The Sabbath starts at about 6 p.m. on Friday and the Jews were warned in
Deuteronomy 21:23 that the victim of crucifixion was an "accursed of God" and
was not to be permitted to remain hanging on the Sabbath day, "that thy land
be not defiled which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance".  To
satisfy the religious scruples of the Scribes and Pharisees the "secret
disciples" of Jesus took down the body from the cross.  They gave the body
the Jewish burial-bath, plastered it with "one hundred pounds weight of
aaloes and myrrh" (John 19:39), then placed the shrouded body into the
sepulcher before night-fall.

FRIDAY ---> Placed in tomb                          |One Night          |
|             before sunset.                                        |
                |                          |
|                                                                          |
                |                          |
| SATURDAY--> Supposed to be in the tomb.          |  One Day  |  One Night
        |
|                                                                          |
                |                          |
| SUNDAY ---> Missing before sunrise.             |   - nil -       |
 - nil -                |
|                                                                          |
                |                          |
============================================================|
|                                                          TOTAL      |  
 One Day  |  Two Nights        |
You will no doubt note that the GRAND TOTAL is ONE day and TWO nights, and
NOT 
three days and three nights.  According to the Christian Scriptures Jesus had
failed a SECOND time.  FIRST he was unlike Jonah, who was ALIVE in the belly
of the fish, which is exact opposite of what the Christians claim had
happened to their master Jesus, who was dead for the same period of time as
Jonah was -- ALIVE.  

SECONDLY, we discover that he also failed to fulfill the TIME FACTOR as well.
 The greatest mathematician in Christendom will fail to obtain the desired
result -- THREE days and THREE nights.  We must not forget that the Gospels
are explicit in telling us that it was "before sunrise" on Sunday morning
(the First day of the week), that Mary Magdalene went to the tomb of Jesus
and found it empty.


"GOOD" WEDNESDAY??

The Armstrong family has debunked the whole Christian world.  They seem to
know 
their arithmetic!  Mr. Robert Fahey of the "Plain Truth" magazine, delivered
a lecture recently at the "Holiday Inn", Durban, where I was present.  Mr.
Fahey attempted to prove to his Christian audience that Jesus Christ was
crucified on a Wednesday and not on Friday, as is supposed by Orthodox
Christianity for the past two thousand years.  According to him if one counts
backwards from Sunday morning deducting 3 DAYS and 3 NIGHTS, one ought to get
WEDNESDAY as the answer.

I congratulated Mr. Fahey for his ingenuity.  I asked him, how was it
possible for the past two thousand years the whole Christian world celebrated
GOOD FRIDAY instead of GOOD WEDNESDAY.  Thus the 1200000000 Christians of the
world today are ignorant of the correct day of the so called crucifixion!  It
means that even the Roman Catholic Church -- which claims an unbroken chain
of Popes from Peter to this day -- according to Mr. Fahey are mislead.


GOD OR THE DEVIL?

The question arises, who deceived the millions of Christians for the past TWO

THOUSAND years.  GOD or the DEVIL?  Mr. Fahey categorically answered: "THE 
DEVIL!"

"If the devil", I said, "can succeed in confusing the Christians in the most
elementary things of their Faith, whether to celebrate a Good Friday or a
Good Wednesday, then how much easier for him to mislead Christians in other
things concerning God?"  Mr. Fahey blushed and walked away.

If this is the belief of the trend-setters of the Christian Faith in the
world today, may we not then ask: is this not the mightiest hoax in history?

 

I wonder if Jesus would be pleased with our attempt to create an icon out of his call to act as  loving, peace-filled, enlightened human being?  God isn't christian either.

We built quite a bit around a lot of people who we look up to.  Has anyone spotted Elvis lately?   Just one example.    It seems that Karl Yung knew all the hype people were building about him, and said, "I'm glad I'm Yung and not a Yungian!"

I imagine Jesus might say the same thing.  It is God we worship and Jesus was  a human who had so engaged with his God that he let his life live this love out.

He spent time doing this...intentionally..    After all, it is no accident when someone is a concert pianist.   It is an inner longing and a passion, and you become one with the instrument.  Or, perhaps, as with Jesus, your message becomes what you live, so people can see it, hear it, feel it.  Maybe even connect to it in themselves.

Our history as Christians is tainted, no doubt, but our power needs can be overwhelming if we are on the wrong track.  I am not proud of any use of God's name in a vain proclamation of war, or use of violence of any kind.  Past or present. 

However, I can choose differently.   I can respect that I, too, have a shadow side, as we all do.  The more I fight it, the stronger it fights back.  When I embrace/accept that part of me, it has so much less power in my life.  That's what Jesus was talking about.  'Love your neighbour as yourself'...well if I can't love me, how will I be able to love anyone else?   

Fear is an thing that is sensed and it is a consumer.  It steals our freedom to be who we are and lets others use us.  It divides us into factions in one country, and wars against another one.   

We give what is inside us because that's all we have.  I can change what is there, add to it, forgive it, and take on new energy. Try again... kind of like when the Computer says..do you want open 'this' in a new window?    Wow!!  I can do that!

We are not expected to change the world, but to change our own selves.  People of all Faiths/Religions are coming to that.  It is a long, hard road...and I see Jesus ahead of me on that road.  So, in that, I follow him as leader...and so am Christian.

I actually, am one of those people who really knows, from experience, that God already loves me.  Before I came, God loved me, after I leave, God will still love me.  That is what God is and does!  That's it, that's all.   Humans have built the rest trying to understand this planet, each other, and the Creating energy that made it all.  And somehow we got quite a bit of their own ego mixed up in the power needs of control.  Being over another, love of money, etc.  That has compromised it all.

But again, I can choose differently!  We all have choice.  God trusted that much.   The same label won't mean the same to everyone.  It can't really, we are brought up differently, learn differently, look different...we are unique.  What I say will mean some total other thing to another who has not experienced what I have.  Even the, we may see it as similar, but not the same.  That is a reality we live with.

So, labels can be like walls, or they can free us to new energy.  Jesus knocked down the walls of convention and welcomed everyone.  Now, that's one thing I wouldn't mind being called Christian about.  Other religions have similar patterns of being.

So, maybe labels, borders, names, tribal stuff, mean separaration and that does get in the way of what humanity is seeking....peace.. all round this planet.

Why are people so fasinated with labels. what you call yourself  does not matter.. you are how you act and live....

Why are people so fasinated with labels. what you call yourself  does not matter.. you are how you act and live....

I, too, gave over the name "Christian", and occasionally use "Follower of Jesus"; often, in parallel with desafinado here, I call myself a "small 'u' unitarian". To me, Jesus was not God, either on the cross or afterward, but calling him "just" a human doesn't quite cut it either. It demans us as it woul demean him. I value his humanity and live in belief that we all have a share of the divinity. I'd accept the phrase, "Jesus, a Christ", not "Jesus, the Christ"--there's a world of difference in that article change.

 Personally, it makes for interesting times in worship, especially at Easter and to a lesser extent at Christmas. But I attend a United Church because a) I'm a theist within the framework of Judeo-Christianity, and b) I have the freedom to doubt and ask and ponder and share far more in this denomination than in most others I have encountered. I go to worship because I need to.

I appreciate Brenda's struggles--it took me quite a while to get to where I am. And as for Christians' failings, in my experience, we all fail our religion, we all mess it up, we all co-opt it to our own ends and prejudices in some way. And, our religions fail us.

A last word: those who have issues with the violence, mysogyny, racism, etc in the Bible--and it's all there--would do well to remember that it's not a book, it's a library. It's a chronicle, in many ways, of a people's relationship with God and that relationship evolved and changed over the centuries. It's still changing, and in a very real sense, the Bible isn't finished in the least. What's in the Bible as we know it is how a people understood their relationship with God at a particular time and place, reflecting their prejudices, worldview, understandings and gifts. Later peoples saw things differently. We in our turn see things differently.

I've found that Bart Ehrman has some very helpful things to say about the Bible and how we approach it. Speaking of which, I've noticed that critics of the Bible and fundamentalists share one thing in common: they both read the Bible literally. An awful lot of the Bible, in my view, is metaphor--we use metaphors when we can't adequately describe something in straightforward talk. As long as we know we're using metaphors, all is well--when we think a metaphor is literal truth, we are in deep trouble, indeed...

I am thinking it is very important not to call you a christian, it is important to be a christian.

But starting with our basically teaching, what means for us the definition,,christian,,?

,,The person is named christian when believes in Jesus Christ as son of God, in his Resurrection and his sacrifice which bring us the FATHER's forgiveness and the chance of eternal life.This is a christian and according to the Bible, the name christian was used first time in ,,The Acts,,11/26.

Coming back to your matter, Brenda, as I see, you are a christian.

I will pray for you, my sister in Jesus.

An example for us, dont give up and dont look to the people arround you, look to God Jesus and think to Him.

Dont mix up the political matters with the faith. Keep the holy faith far from this dirty world.(look in the history to the people and nations which mixed the faith with the policy)

Why are we so concerned with Labels? Can we not just say when asked " Yes I believe"

I know its hard, listening to others who claim to be "christian"  But behave in a manor that contradicts. Lying, Cheating, Stealing.   I have a family member who is a different denomaniation then I, who repeatedly tells me how wrong my belifs are...and yet they don't pay for their satallite. They take cleaning products and toilet tissue home from work. They turn their backs on family most in need.  But they are in better standing with the Lord then I?  I've learned to just live and let be.  Good luck. 

 e7911,

Very nice post, well put!

I kept meaning to read this, and hurray!! I'm glad I did.  Geez is a good magazine, and this article is great.

Re: the bible being such a disaster...  depends on how you read it.  Yes, it's horrific is spots, and totally old, but with a bit of context, some ancient language knowledge and some history about the fight to pull it together, you start to see the journey that was taken, that was embraced,  until the end of the book where the journey has become much more hopeful/peaceful/justice-seeking...  But don't finish there-  God didn't.

One might try to read the bible as a story of people opening their eyes to the workings of the Spirit, rather than of how the Spirit actually works... Eventually, the people start to understand.  Luckily, we aren't all starting from a place of smiting and exiling, but we start from anger or despair or amazement or whatever...

I call myself a Christian heritic as I indentify more with the Gnostic who were branded heretics more then with traditional born again Christians The Gnostics believe that knowing God was an individual intuitive experience.  The Church fathers resented this because it was individual faith that was uncontrollable ands so set down common dogmas which people that all must claim to believe.

For me the term 'Chirstianity" means 'Follows of Jesus' which following the example of Jesus.  To me this mean builiding relationships with individuals who are oppressed and excluuded.  This means getting to know individuals who are homeless or in prison.  Getting to know people who suffer from additions or mental illness and being able to forgive people who have  harmed you. 

I also want to refrain from calling myself "Chistian' because Christianity is an ideal that most of us fail to live up to.  Howeveer, I want to call myself a Christian to take the term away from those born again Christians who have no concern for what it means to follow Jesus' example.  I want to call myself a Christian heritic to identify with those who have been excluded Christianity, especially those Muslems, Buddhist etc who do espire to the ideals of Christianity without affirming dogmatic belief in Christ.

I think the most important thing is does Christ know you are a christian as He knows the hearts of mankind. So if your heart is right with the Lord, then why worry about whether Christ rose on a Sunday or a Monday?

I just read bishop John Spong's weekly essay "Why stay a Christian www.johnspong.com.  He ponts out the Christianity beegan as a movedment with a wide range of beliefs.   Today scholars are studying these beliefs and where they came from

Marilyn