I will BUMP this up for you DKS so it shows for new searches.

Tao/Wolfie

I don't think Christianity is dying.  I think it is being revitalized in unexpected places (like on the WonderCafe - and in the coffee shops - and in Thursday night discussion groups in church parlors or in the neighbourhood bar).   And in some churches within some denominations.  (Example - fen years or so I was guest worship leader at a little old rural church by a lake.  the congregation was about ten people.  Five families supported the church.   I was recently invited back to that church (one of a three point charge).  I was rather surprised that it was still open.  Every pew was occupied.  As the last few people came in others scooted over to make room.   What happened!   They only keep the building open for the summer months now - joining with another congregation in the pastoral charge for the remainder of the year - and they reach out to the summer people in cottages surrounding the lake.   People actually bring children in their pjs, and they bring their coffee from the cottage, to worship at 9:00 am on Sunday mornings.)

What I get tired of is the defeatist attitudes many congregations seem to have.  When they have a closing Sunday in June, and a 'welcome back' in September, is it any wonder that very few people show up in the summer.   When people hear "no one comes during the summer - or the Sunday after Christmas - or during the coldest time of winter", aren't they likely to stay home.  When there is no 'children's time' during the service because 'we seldom have children', what is there for the children who might show up - perhaps with a grandparent.  What would make them want to come back?   When we cut staff, and cancel programs, 'because attendance is falling off', what is going to rebuild the church?   It seems that half the churches in this area are looking for part time staff to fill positions that used to be full time.  It might be realistic in some cases, but it seems to me that it is defeatist in others.

 Try something new, make changes - yes!

Give up - No.

Actually, the way I read the article is to say that the death of the Roman Catholic Church is overrated.

Which is largely due to same factors responsible for the growth of Islam. Immigration.

However it would be more interesting to see these projections based on the the retention of 2nd generation immigrant families. How many of these see their faith as a cultural affiliation for example?

besides the whole idea that Christianity death or life is solely determined by the numbers that claim membership is iffy.

I would prefer just one good Christian, over 1000  who pay lip service to their faith.  Quality of faith is not addressed in this survey.  20 years ago or even 10, Catholicism in Ireland looked strong based on it's numbers. However due to the actions of bad Christians (bishops and abusive clergy) the church is on shaky ground today.

This.

Canada is mostly populated by immigrants and the offspring of immigrants.  Our ancestors who came over were mostly religious as well.  Now, their children, grandchildren, etc. are increasingly non-believers.  So while immigration from countries where people are almost all believers will bolster attendance at some churches and mosques, the question is, will the children of these immigrants continue to attend and believe, after they've grown up with a better education and in a more diverse environment than their parents?

Right now, based on current trends, I'd predict that a large percentage won't, and that churches will continue to be dependent upon immigration from poorer countries where faith has a strong hold.

i just think that a lot of damage to the church was done when it had a larger percentage of the population.

The stories/myth of Lot and Noah demonstrate, one good Christian is better than scores of bad ones.

You never have to fear other faiths or change. Humanity will still be struggling with that primal experience, that nugget that we all can share in, no matter how many organized religions or new religious trends (like Biblical Literalism) try to destroy that or corporate institutions try to organize it out of existence.

The above was taken from this longer talk of his. Quite intriguing and enlivening :3

Here's another brilliant excerpt of another talk

Which is an excerpt from this longer talk

Lastly, here's a glimpse into real life Inception :3

Organized religion no longer has a hold on people; we've been in a secular age for quite a while.

Now we are entering a post-secular age, where spirituality is making a comeback. But the spirituality that is coming back is not the sectarian, dogmatic, authoritarian and exclusive spirituality of old-time religion but the all-inclusive spirituality of universal unity, a spirituality that is not anti-science but backed by science.

Humanity will enter a post-secular spiritual age, an age that is dominated by the awareness of the interrelatedness and interdependence of all beings. It will be a spiritual human culture, like the age before organised religion, but in a post-modern context with post modern insights. Organized religion will then no longer be necessary because all of human culture will be spiritual.

You may believe in the Aquarian Conspiracy. I do not. Such New Age thinking rests on the misapprehension that people are basically good - denying the existence of original sin. In the words of Paul:
 

"... I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ.  For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough."
(2 Corinthians 11:3-4)
 

Charles Price, Senior Pastor of the People's Church has said that there is not just a "God-shaped hole" at the centre of our being, but a "God-shaped vacuum". Left to itself, it will suck in almost anything.

Banquo,

let me try to understand your worldview here.  You believe that you aren't inherently good, because of Original Sin?

Now, doesn't Christian sin 'mean' Missing The Mark?

If so, then...I don't see how that means that you aren't inherently good, if you are always missing the mark?

I do hope that makes sense :3

Bibby's article (did you actually read it?) clearly rebuts that argument.

Holiday weekend and the little church in cottage country had two empty pews - all the others occupied and some full.   People must find something worthwhile to get up early at the cottage and come to church for 9:00 am.  

The church in the town with the 11:00 am service had a nice turn-out for a holiday in summer as well.

DKS,

inneresting schtuff :3

Have you read that Powerpoint presentation by Reginald Bibby available on his webpage?

He sums up his latest findings by saying that the potential demise of religion wouldn't make any difference in our Spirituality or Individual Lives but it would make a difference with Civility and Death.

I'm glad he's using science to find these things out :3  And it looks like over time he has used at least 3 different models to make sense of his data.

I'm of the BS that secularization is just allowing people to practice their own Spirituality (meaning) without having someone else murder or injure or sue them for being "offended".

Whereas Reginald Bibby the simple usage of secularization as "the decline in the influence of organized religion".

I've got some things to talk to this guy aboot; might be exciting :3

Did you see the reference to Wondercafe in this from his web site?

. He used a Wondercafe ad from there is probably a God campaign to illustrate the polarisation of religious debate.

A seed is made to die, in the particular as in the universal.

It is in losing his forms and structures that the church will journey into her promised future.

Some resist this loosing of encumbrance, claiming the dead weight a necessity. This seems out of touch with the promise of faith; by which we are led both out of and into. We step away from all that has formed us in the world. We step towards the fullness of that which is given in the gift of our common life in our common home.

In this present activity we prefer one another over all the advantages and benefits of the world. By this present activity we will show forth the dawning of a new day under the sun.

The world of prose has long compelled our allegiance. When we turn to the world of poetry we may expect a substantial resistance.

"Joshua fought the battle of Jericho and the walls come tumbling down."

Our Temple Mosque Stage Nest Wat Kingdom Hall Kirk Pathi Derasar Synagogue Hof Jinja Gurdwara Circle Conviviality is FAMOUS! :3

No tithing.  No dress code.  No building falling apart to worry aboot or politics of "Should we have Tiger Lilies out front or Clitoria Blue Pea?"

I've taken courses with him. he's a very engaging and approachable person.

Hi IW,

I can only reply to your query by starting from the scriptural reference.

"But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished —  he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus." (Romans 3:21-26)

To "sin" in Christian terms means to "fall short". In our fallen state, we are incapable, on our own, of choosing good. We may reach for the prize, but cannot grasp it. This is the Calvinist principle of Total Depravity. We are born spiritually dead, and incapable of our own resurrection. We fall short of the glory of God.

If you think you have never sinned, consider this:

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." (Matthew 5:27-28)

If you are a man, tell me that you have never looked at a pretty woman and had a wayward thought. By that wayward thought, you are a sinner. As a man, if you tell me that you have truly never had such a wayward thought, I will call you a liar (another sin: "Thou shalt not bear false witness.")

I have friend who has worked as an RCMP Auxiliary (a volunteer position). He tells me that the police are trained to see all people as basically evil. Given the opportunity and the right circumstances, anyone will commit a crime. He asked me if I believe this.

I have said, "No, people are not basically evil, they are basically sinful. It's not the same thing. But a sinful nature can lead you to commit an evil act."

Sola gracia.

- Banquo

No, DKS, I didn't read Bibby's article. But it seems to me that organized religion no longer plays the major role it once did. What's more, most of the people I know, and know of, profess to be "spiritual but not religious."

I think we've allowed ourselves to be de-railed from the original topic of this thread. As an effort to get back on topic:

According to the Western Catholic Reporter article originally cited:

"Growing polarization in the post-1960s has been accompanied by a major restructuring of organized religion. Historically-strong Protestant denominations such as the United, Anglican, Presbyterian and Lutheran churches have been experiencing severe numerical losses. In 1931, just under 50 per cent of Canadians identified with these four groups. By 2001, the figure had fallen to 20 per cent."

Why the decline? Charles Price of the People's Church has his own take on the problem: "Those churches and denominations which have undermined the authority of scripture, without exception, are on the decline. Without exception because they have no message left."

The statistics cited in the Western Catholic Reporter would seem to bear out this point of view. Those Christian denominations that continue to be stable or growing are the Catholic and evangelical Protestant denominations - denominations that continue to rely upon the authority of scripture. It is the liberal "mainline" Christian denominations, like the United Church of Canada, that continue to slide.

Is this because, as Price maintains, we no longer have a relevant message?

- Banquo

I have never looked at any women and had a wayward thought. Call me liar and people who know me shall laugh.

That's a logical flaw. Do you know everyone? Then how does your statement make sense?  And blind, to boot. Read the article, Then, perhaps, we can talk.

Nope. Price is quite wrong. You are quoting the usual 9and typical) evangelical mainline church bashing. Bibby suggests that the evangelical churches are suffering equal declines, just as the mainline Protestants are. The difference is that evangelical churches are able to hold on to their youth, generation over generation. The mainline is not. And there is no immigration to inflate the church, other than the Roman Catholics.

Which brings me to this story:

As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

 

 

“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. You know the commandments: ‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.’”

 

“Teacher,” he declared, “all these I have kept since I was a boy.”

 

Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

 

At this the man’s face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth. (Mark 10:17-22)

Most people you meet think that because you haven't gone out and murdered someone, or shoplifted, or run a red light, you therefore have never sinned. By this thinking, you commit yet another sin, the sin of pride.

What's at issue is Jesus' comment in Mark 10:18. "No one is good, except God alone."

My sister, who grew up in the United Church along with me, will not attend church. She can't abide the hypocrisy she sees in the pews. My wife will not attend church with me because of the judgemental way she has been treated by some of the members of our local United Church congregation.

Too many of us will go to a place of worship on a Sunday morning to put a band-aid on our conscience, then get up on Monday morning and go about our week as if we've given our tithe to God and we can safely ignore Him until next Sunday.

The Gospel is not meant to be compartmentalized into a sabbath observance. It's meant to be lived. But you cannot live the Gospel until you can admit your own sinful nature. If you've lived a quiet, comfortable, middle class life, this can be the hardest thing. It's too easy to stand in the temple and thank God that you are not like that publican over there (see Luke 18:10-15).

The people who understand the Gospel best are the people who have really screwed up. John Newton wrote Amazing Grace after a lifetime spent as the captain of a slave boat.

A friend who did her internship as a social worker on Vancouver's lower east side told me of her supervisor, an experienced worker who had been helping street people, mostly drug addicts, for years. He was considered one of the best at his job. He was a professed athiest, but he said to my friend that the only thing that truly makes the difference in a drug addict's life is if someone manages to connect him or her to God. It doesn't matter if it's a church pastor or just a volunteer serving food on a soup line. If they can connect that addicted person to God, that person is transformed. He said that you can see the change in them, and that these are the only people about whom he has no fear that they will slide back into addiction.

Who are these "connectors" who manage to put people in touch with God? People whose faith is founded in the scriptures. People who have had a living experience of the grace of God.

Which brings me back to the real point of my original post. Is Charles Price correct? Is the United Church in decline because we no longer have a message?

Sola gracia.

- Banquo

No, Price is not correct. He's just engaging in the usual evangelical United Church bashing. While I am sorry your wife and sister have been treated poorly, what have they done to deal with the matter? Have they spoken to the minister? The church is full of badly behaving people. That's what makes it the church.

Hi DKS:

I just read the article. Well, it states the author's opinion.

I don't have any statistics to back up what I said, but in our village of about 3.000 (village and area) there are three churches, with a regular Sunday church attendance of no more than 300. That's 10% of the population, and declining rather than increasing. Our Anglican church has closed and our United church will soon follow suit. The Roman Catholic congregation is holding steady, and so is the Church of Christ.

Of my friends and acquaintances, the majority are spiritual but not religious. I belong to the United Church and am both spiritual and religious, but not religious in a dogmatic way. I take scripture and doctrines seriously but not literally, and so do most of my friends within the UC and RC.

Banquo,

This is off topic - but to me "sin" is missing the mark.

Thanks to the like of Calvin, sin got a worse reputation than it deserves.

I think it's in our flaws that we have an opportunity to develop empathy and compassion.

Also, without perceived flaws we run the risk of being hypocrites. (All good resides with us, sin is to be located in the other.)

Lord, deliver me from perfectionists. The quest for perfectionism is a danger in itself - and not healthy.

It's become a modern disease when you take into account the quest for the perfect body, the perfect partner, etc.

Jesus's message was about love -  and that's more than enough to focus on.

Perhaps if the church made it's focus inclusive love, rather than sin, it would have more support?

Pilgrim stated: Perhaps if the Church made it's focus inclusive love, rather than sin, it would have more support.

I agree with that.

Churches today need to focus on Love and being Inclusive of all. Accepting all with Unconditional Love and Respect.

When this happens, Churches Transform!

*Peace - Love - Respect*

Tao

Herein lies the danger of lifting anyone's quote from its context. I quoted Price from his sermon series "The Dynamics of an Effective Church". Price was not bashing the United Church. He wasn't bashing anyone. His sermon series is excellent and thought-provoking. His overall point is that the church is not an institution or an organization. It's us. The body of Christ.

Any church that has been around for a long time, as has the United Church, and as has the People's Church which was founded only a few years after the United Church, runs into the dangers of a mature church. To be fair to Price, I will quote him at length:

In the early days of a church's history, there is freshness, there is a vitality, there is vision, there is a commitment to the task for which it came into being. And nearly always, every church that is founded is founded for very good reasons and close to the purposes of God. But, in the course of time, it is very easy for a church to be exposed to the dangers of sliding away from it's primary purpose to secondary things.

 

There is a danger of moving from being outward-looking to becoming inward-looking. There is a danger of moving from being God-centred to being human-centred and need-centred. There is a danger of moving from being a living organism, where Christ is head of His church and His Spirit is the life of His church, to becoming simply a well-managed organization.

 

There is a danger of moving from being Spirit-dependent to being self-sufficient. There is the danger of moving our thinking from Biblical revelation as the authority and sufficient authority for the church of Jesus Christ to relying on human reasoning - filtering revelation through reason so that reasoning becomes the criteria.

 

- Charles Price, "The dangers of a mature church"

The Emerging Spirit initiative has been an effort to address the issues that, on the surface, seem to be sapping the life from the United Church. Even there, the Emerging Spirit program has seen it's share of detractors. To quote a minister from our Presbytery who commented after an Emerging Spirit presentation at a Presbytery event: "They seem to want us to become the Rotary Club. That is a direction, at least in our congregation, we will not go."

I had a conversation with another minister at a Presybtery event hosted by our local congregation. He noted that, in the town where he lived, the two local evangelical churches were growing, but his church and the local Catholic Church were losing members. I asked him why he thought this was happening.

He said that the evangelical pastors put more emphasis on whether you had a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

I said I felt that something else is going on. We all read the same Bible. We all follow the same Gospel, with varying emphasis on the details. What the evangelical churches in his community, and elsewhere, do better is finding ways to make the Gospel relevant to people in their everyday lives.

It's not so much a question of style or substance. I think they are just better communicators than we are.

Kennon Callahan, author of "Twelve Keys to an Effective Church", identifies 12 areas of activity that every congregation shares. Any given congregation needs to have nine of these 12 keys well in place to be healthy and functioning. Which nine will vary from congregation to congregation, but one key is vital: One Mission Outreach.

This is what Price is touching on when he talks about the danger of moving from being outward-looking to being inward-looking. The experiences of United Church congregations seem to bear this out. An Observer article that profiled four UC congregations that have experienced revitalization and renewal showed one common thread: all four had found a local outreach mission that matters and that people could get behind. To paraphrase Callahan - money follows mission.

Members of my local UC congregation managed to spectacularly miss the point of the Observer article

"You notice one thing about those churches?" said one of our members. "They're all urban churches. That won't work here in rural Alberta."

I think Charles Price is correct. Where our church is in decline is in the places where we have no effective message left. Where we are in decline is where we have allowed ourselves to become irrelevant to the greater community in which we live, and largely irrelevant in the day-to-day lives of the members of our congregations. If all your parishioners do is attend a gathering on Sunday mornings to be with familiar faces and sing some familiar songs, you aren't living out the Gospel. You're a social club.

I think that the United Church is, in general, doomed to extinction unless we are willing to do the hard work, congregation by congregation, of re-evaluating our place in the larger communities where we live and searching for ways that we can, in Christ's service and by His leading, reach out and touch people in their everyday hurts and hopes.

I am also optimistic that there are enough people within the United Church who are passionate about our way of living out the Gospel, who know there is more work yet to be done, and who are willing to roll up their sleeves and do the work required, to ensure that our extinction is not in the natural order of things.

Sola gracia

- Banquo