a respectful, and ponderous bump

I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses and we definitely don't believe in the trinity teaching. We believe that Jesus is the son of the true god, Jehovah (as the Bible points out).

I am a member of the United Church - have been for 65 years. What keeps me in the church is the United Church's understanding that there are many paths to the divine mystery we name "God". My belief in the nature of Jesus is that he was a great prophet and teacher and so in tune with the reality of the Divine that he was feared and finally eliminated by the religious and secular leaders of the time. Was and is he divine? - I think not! The divinity of Jesus and the dogma of the trinity were creations of the church "fathers" at a later date to attempt to consolidate their power as the true and only mediators to the Divine through the apostloic line.

Jesus was a great teacher and prophet and deserves to be acknowledged as the head of the Christian Church. His teachings were radical in his day and remain radical today - but he was not divine. When I pray, I pray to the mystery we name God. When I live my daily life, I try to live it as I believe Jesus the prophet and teacher would live it in the 21st century.

Omnissiah: What up bro. Bust out the ammo case; I am curious to know what you would say about why Muslims don't believe in the divinity of Christ.

Ok, I will, but I honestly don't want to shake anyones faith.  I know it can be good for them, but I fear making the wrong impression.  Please bear with me.

*one minute while I crack open my bible and qur'an for reference*

Why Muslims in general don't believe in the divinity of Christ?  Well, we are taught in the Qur'an that Jesus (peace be upon him) was a prophet, carrying the continuing teachings of Allah (arabic fo 'The God', being very specifically monotheistic, in face arabic jews and christians say Allah as well) to the next generation.  Muslims believe that the jews ahve part of the final message, and the christians have another part, but that Muslims have the final and complete message. 

This is another reason why we clearly and repeatedly state that Muhammed was the FINAL messanger.

Specific info refuting Jesus (peace be upon him) as the Divine Son of God?  Well, first off, prove it.  No where in the bible does it quote Jesus as saying "Worship me!" or "I am God/I am the son of god".  Please feel free to quote the bible in rebuttle.

In fact it puts forward info that one would think supports the non-divinity of Christ.  For example, John 17:3: Eternal Life is to know you, the only true God, and to know Jesus Christ, the one you sent.  

How can Jesus be God if he's been sent?  God is never sent, nor is he commanded, nor is he guided, nor is he created.  He is the creator without a creator.  He is even before Alpha and far after Omega.

Also, it is a well known fact that the idea of trinity (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) was non-existant in Christianity until after the Council of Niscea.  Early Christians were strictly monotheistic, just like Jews and Muslims.  After the council they decided to include trinitarian beliefs (I don't know exactly where these came from, but i'm guessing some earlier or pagan religion so that christianity would be more acceptable to the 'barbarians' of europe while the great attempt to convert was going on.   This the the reason why Christians (one of the peoples of the Book) are refered to as "The ones who have gone astray" In the Qur'an.  This is because it's true, they have (although nowadays people are starting to realize this and change) strayed from monotheism into trinity, i.e. duality. 

A lot of people don't read the Bible in peticular, and religious texts in general, in context.  they love to pic it apart and say  "This says that" without the surroundinf verses, or the general flow of the Surah, chapter, et cetera.  I can't stress it enough that you should always strive to read in context and metaphorically (which is encouraged in the Qur'an).  And you must always keep in mind the times in which the book was writen.  People say "well, jesus is refered to as the son of god!"  Well...back then, that was a title.  It was a title honouring a peticularly pious individuals.  Just like Lord was to peticularly powerful ones... Do you see how this could be misconstrued?

Well, I'm going to leave it at that for now, if anyone wants to rebuttle, thats fine.  I'm open to discussion.  Again, I mean no disrespect.

Assalaam Alaiykum

-Omni

Excellent!  Verily it will be better for you, for you are one who knows!

Assalaam Alaiykum

-Omni

Margharry, I am curious of the following. Is the bible a storey book or the Word of God? Is Christ Jesus your Lord and Savior or is He a prophet or better yet, just a teacher or merely a man? Is the Hope of Salvation a concern in your life? Just interested.

A lot of the story of Jesus is questionable (historically) and most of this is probably due to the fact that when Christianity was a fledgling religion, they needed to find ways to get as many followers as they could (just like Jesus told them to do) so they probably stretched the truth a little to make the deal seem more enticing. The virgin birth is probably the best example of this. It's also the main reason why Jesus is considered to be divine. If he's literally the son of a god, then he must be a god himself (or since he would also be part human, it would be more fitting to call him a demigod). However, there is no evidence of the possibility of a virgin birth via divine intervention but there is evidence of a natural birth since even though Mary and Joseph weren't married under their religion, they were married under Roman law, so this is a much more sound explanation.

Omni: Don't worry about shaking anyone's faith up in here! =)

There are a lot of potential rabbit trails regarding this topic, including the Christology of Jesus, the reliability of the sacred texts of Muslims and Christians historically, Trinitarian theology, the nature of truth, etc.

First, you touched on a notable dilemma worth pondering; that Christians and Jews have only part of the final message, but that Muslims have the whole truth. That Muslims do not believe Jesus was divine, nor did the 'real' Jesus die on the cross, that Jews believe that Jesus was not the Messiah, and that Christians believe Jesus was the divine Son of God are significant, irreconcilable differences, rendering it impossible for the followers of all three Abrahamic religions to love God as God really is simultaneously.

Omni wrote: "Specific info refuting Jesus (peace be upon him) as the Divine Son of God?  Well, first off, prove it.  No where in the bible does it quote Jesus as saying "Worship me!" or "I am God/I am the son of god". 

One cannot empirically 'prove' such things. However, regarding the credibility of the sacred texts, the Qur'an, unlike the Bible, has no authentic historical documents that bear witness to its literary reliability or historical autheniticity, since Muslims believe the Qur'an to be divinely derived from the eternal tablet. Not only this, but it was written some six centuries after Christ's life - both reasons why scholars do not look to the Qur'an as a source for the historical Jesus. The gospel accounts in the Christian Bible however, have been shown to be based on eyewitness testimony, written roughly 15-70 years after the death of Christ with corroborating witnesses. The silence from the early antagonists of this new radical Jewish sect, later called Christianity, is deafening. Interesting that such a movement got off the ground in such a momentous way.

The deity of Christ was a doctrine present in the early church - before the Gospel accounts were penned. Paul's letter to the church in Philippi (written in the mid 50s CE) contains a citation of an even earlier poem, regarding Christ's nature :

"Who, being in very nature God,
      did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 
 but made himself nothing,
      taking the very nature of a servant,
      being made in human likeness."
 

Also, when Christ refers to himself as the 'Son of Man', understood Semitically, he is making a profound reference to Daniel 7 of the Hebrew Bible, which has divine implications - unlike the typical Greco-Roman understanding of 'Son of Man', which could mean 'any' man.

As for biblical references, here are a couple (of many) to ponder:

"I tell you the truth...before Abraham was born, I am!" (John 8:58 - re. vv52-59)

"Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?"

 "I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven." (Mark 14:61-62)

These sayings of Christ are not the utterances of a sane man, unless he is truly who he claims to be. This is precisely the reason why the Jews threatened to stone him (in the John account), because as in Islam, these claims to deity are blasphemous and treason of a high order. How then, could Christ be considered a 'good' prophet of Allah, if he is a deceiver or insane (which is not consistent with the life he lived and the profound ethic that he taught)?

Unfortunately I am very busy and wont be able to partake in much discussion these days...but I'll drop in when I can..

Payce ;)

Everyone and everything is divine--if only we knew!

If we knew, then we'd feel, think, and act divinely.

What's holding us back?

Is there a taboo in our culture against knowing who or what we really are?

It there is, let's break it!

Thanks for a great discussion. I nearly got tossed out on my ear (20 years ago) for daring to suggest in school that Jesus maybe was just a man who had the power and fortitude to live a near perfect life.

To this day the divinity of Jesus was unimportant to me..the lessons are the same in either case.

I'm curious if you could maybe list one or two things Jesus did to eliminate Him from being perfect and demoting Him to "near perfect"?

Paul

Hey Omni et al!

Well, divinity of Jesus is old dogma and carries some wonderful imagery & stories.  It carried a lot of power too.  I don't believe that in fact/birth/genetics Jesus was divine (any more than the rest of us, and I'm more likely to agree that all living things are divine). 

I believe the history & analysis of the bible shows that Divinity of Christ was created by legend & story in a very useful wonderful way, but has been corrupted over the years.  If it means anything Jesus the Man was a man.  Christ was divine. 

So I'm UCC all my life.  I'm aware that the divinity issue is still a major story line of our church, but more as legend/atmosphere than dogma or doctrine.  I think many UCC folk are in a similar place as I am.  I think for most of us, the lack of 'Divinity' (as doctrinally understood) means nothing- it doesn't shake faith, nor does it make us any less interested in God, - it is just a bit of clutter that we carry with us and fondly toss around sometimes.

Audj. I am just curious, as I understand, Jehovah's witnesses believe that Jesus was a created being, specifically that He was the archangel Michael who was born on earth as Jesus Christ, giving up his existance as an angel. Then after the ressurection was raised as the archangel Michael.   Is that correct.

Also I was hoping you could clear up something in the New World Translation for me. In the Gospel of John Chapter 1 verse 1 it reads, "In the begining was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was a god."  Why does the NWT translate this passage that way?

I intend no disrespect here. I am just wondering if I have correct information. 

To answer omni's question, I believe the Unitarians do not believe in the divinity of Jesus. But then again, they believe anything goes so I am not sure if that is an official stand or not.

I certainly believe that Jesus is fully God and fully man, that He is God the Son and is co-eternal with the Father. I do not pretend however to fully understand the Trinity.  But then again I am just some finite dude who loves Jesus with all his heart as his personal Lord and Saviour. I am not divine and therefore my comprehension of  all things divine and infinite are by definition finite.

Hi Omnissiah,

Historically within the "Christian" umbrella, the divinity of Jesus has been denied by the Ebionites, Arians, Nestorians, Copts, Christadelphians, Jehovah's Witnesses, Unitarians and Universalists. 

These groups are the theological polar opposites to the Gnostics and the Docetics which claim that Jesus only "appeared" to be human and was, as a matter of fact, wholly divine.

And then there are the Adoptionists who believe that Jesus was born human and later became divine.  This is similar to Apollinarism which posits that Jesus had a human body but a divine mind,

Personally, I believe that Jesus is God the Son which makes him fully human and fully divine.

Do I know how that is possible?  No, I don't.  Does that make it impossible?  I don't believe it does.  What do I use to prop up that belief?  Primarily John 1:  1-18

Grace and peace to you.

John

The divinity of Jesus was not a "creation of the Church fathers." Paul certainly believed in the divinity of Jesus. In Titus 2:13, Paul calls Jesus our great God and Saviour. And also in Romans 9:5 Paul says that Christ is God over all.

The Apostle John believed in the divinity of Jesus as we read in John 1-18.  Also, in Ezekiel 34 we read that God is a good shepherd who looks for and saves His sheep, and in John 10 Jesus says of Himself that He is the Good Shepherd who dies for and saves His sheep.

I don't think Jesus was more divine than anyone else, only more aware of it. He, among others, brought us the message of our divinity. Unfortunately, we misinterpreted his message, rendered only him divine, and left ourselves in the proverbial mud. We've been bogged down ever since.

It is high time to get out of the mire!

I was babtized and confimed  in the UC over 50 years ago.    When I was in Sunday School I accepted without question the bible stories. As I became a teenager I began to question some of the things I had been told and strayed away from the United Church for about 40+  years. I have read most of the bible and a lot of other books on other world religions, and on spirituality.  I agree with Arminius that Jesus was no more devine than we all have the potential to be. There are very very few people in the world today as aware of their spirituality as Jesus was. I am again attending the United Chuch and believe that you can be a follower of Jesus without believing that he was devine.

 I would like Consumingfire  or someone else who believes in the divinity of Jesus  to explain St Mark Ch.15 ver.34 to me.  "And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, ELOI,Eloi,lama, sabachthani, which is, being interpreted, My God, my god, why has thou forsaken me?  If Jesus was fully God, why would he be crying out to another god? 

Pilgrim

• He did have a temper tantrum in a temple that one time.
• He disrespected the man (which I think you said was a bad thing to do once).
• He persecuted the Pharasees (or whoever it was that the Hebrews liked to persecute).
• He died.

But thats just the problem, Jesus never said he was God, and he made sure people didn't worship him.

Idk, if you believe the apostles or whoever John was are all right then I guess their world superceeds the world of Jesus (peace be upon him).

Assalaam Alaiykum

-Omni

Pilgrim. Yes, Jesus was fully God, but as He hung there on the cross, that divinity was suspended as He took the punishment for us that we were due. It was the human part of Jesus crying out to God, not the divine side. Again, the hypostatic union is something that I don't fully understand as I am finite and God is infinite.

Omni.

Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

John 14:8-9

That for me is a clear indication that Jesus says He is God. some will say that that just says that we all have divinity in us or some such, but as I do not believe that, these verses give me pudding the proof is in.

I don't tell everybody I meet that I am drummer, but that does not mean that it is not true.

Swiss Army Triplets to all

Tyson

consumingfire (btw I LOVE your profile pic, a hur a hur a hur!!!).

Doesn't the same section of John also state that:

• Jesus said to his disciples, "Don't be worried!  Have faith in my Father and have faith in me. There are many rooms in my Father's House. I wouldn't tell you this unless it was true.  I am going there to prepare a place for each of you. After I have done this, I will come back and take you with me. Then we will be together. You know the way to where I am going."  (John 14:1-4)

Does this not explicitly state Jesus (peace be upon him) seperating himself from God?  And don't try and say that because he says "My father" that makes him the direct son of God...we all know it's metaphorical.  We are ALL sons and daughters of God.

• Thomas said, "Lord we don't even know where you are going! How can we know the way?" "I am the way, the truth and the life!" Jesus answered.  "Without me, no one can go to the father. If you had known me, you would have known the father. But from now on, you know him and you have seen me." (John 14:5-7)

Isn't Jesus (peace be upon him) saying that without his teachings no one would be complete?  That through him you know the father, through his teachings and example.  Is he not seperating himself from divinity in the last line by saying "But from now on, you know him, and you have seen me."? As in you know God (through my teachings) and you have seen me (an example as to how to become closer to God's love).

• Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father.  That is all we need." Jesus replied: "Philip, I have been with you for a long time. Don't you know who I am? If you have seen me, you have seen the Father.  How can you ask me to show you the Father? (John 14:8-9)

Isn't Jesus (peace be upon him) saying that his teachings have shown the Father, and that Philip has obviously not been paying attention?

• "Don't you believe that I am one with the Father and that the Father is one with me?  What I say isn't said on my own. The Father who lives in me does these things." (John 14:10)

Doesn't this speak to Jesus's connection with God?  How he has attained peace and connection to the Divine through his life's works, and the way he lived and learned and taught?  And doesn't the last line sound an awful lot like he is attributing the miracles he did to God's Power, not his own?  Which would oust the idea that he was God in carnate or a literal, and sexually concieved Son of God.  We know he was a metaphorical Son of God because WE ALL ARE.

• "Have faith in me when I say that the Father is one with me and that I am one with the Father.  Or else have faith in me simply because of the things I do. I tell you for certain that if you have faith in me, you will do the same things that I am doing. You will do even greater things, now that I am going back to the Father. " (John 14:11-12)

Isn't Jesus (peace be upon him) just saying that people should have faith in him because he is so attuned to God? And to emulate his example?  And that he is going back to the Father (i.e. He is not God because how can god go back to himself?)?

Assalaam Alaiykum

-Omni

Omni. Jesus said that He came to serve, not to be served, so to me it would make sense that Jesus the man was not worshipped (the woman at Jesus feet however could be said to have worshipped Him). But the miracles He performed and the way He taught, to me could only be done by the hand and mouth of God.  Jesus just didn't have divinity in Him, He was and is divinity, He is God with us.

The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

John 1:14

Omni. I believe in John chapter 14:7 Jesus says, "If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know Him and have seen Him." Not,  from now on you do know Him and see ME. Bit of a difference. 

Hi Pilgrim,

Jesus is not crying out to another God.  Jesus is crying out to another person.  Your question doesn't target doctrine concerning the divinity of Jesus so much as it does doctrine concerning the Trinity.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Hello Omni,

Omni: I want to further reflect on what Pan has said. Despite your verbal 'fight picking' at the beginning, I didn't take it that way, as I have also seen that you have maintained a respectful tone throughout the thread. I believe this is necessary to have productive dialogue, and it must stay this way.

But I also believe that its okay for you to expound your beliefs as superior to others here because in my experience, these type of threads always make for exciting threads with many hits. Not only this, but EVERYONE here is an exclusivist for their view, but in different ways. Even the most diehard liberal relativist who asserts that 'no truth is superior to any other' is ironically making an absolute claim that is thought to be superior to your claim that Islam is THE truth. As Tim Keller put it: "It is no more narrow to claim that one religion is right than to claim that one way to think about all religions (namely that all are equal) is right."

I believe that your re-reading of Christ's words in the gospels as not claiming to be God (because of his references TO God) comes from an understandable confusion in the concept of the Trinity.

Here is another reference for you to consider:

Compare Exodus 3:14 from the Torah with John 8:58, noting how Jesus addresses himself.

"God said to Moses, "I am who I am . This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' "
 

"I tell you the truth, before Abraham was, I am!"

That's right. Then the people wanted to stone Jesus because He used God's Holy name to refer to Himself, because He is God the Son.  They thought He was committing blasphemy.

Here's an article by a man named Pether Liefhebber titled Jesus of Nazareth and Maitreya the Christ. It's a little long and definitely not very orthodox but some of you may find it interesting, to say the least.

Interesting article, but he forgot to start with "I believe....."

Thank you for not taking it that way because that was not the wasy it was intended to seem. Thank you for also recognizing that i'm being respectful, I don't want to bash beliefs, which is why I was reluctant to enter into this discussion, because people make mistakes.

So your saying that God couldn't have cause his actions, and that he had to Be God? I respect that view, although I disagree.

As unbias as one might try to be, of course they will be predisposed to what they believe.  Otherwise you all wouldn't be defending the divinity of Jesus.  That is why I think Islam is (whats a good way to put this...?) ...more true.  And why most of you think Christianity is more true.

Hmm...your reference only seems to futher my 'misunderstanding'...it seems to me Jesus is stating (thanks to your highlighting and emphisizing i've noticed this) that before abraham was...I am(God) was...Correct me if i'm wrong.

Ooh my mistake, I apologise.

Actually I said I had ammunition, as it apparent from my arguement.  I said I had this with the intention of warding off discussion on the topic.  Unfortunately I royally effed up and incured the wrath of those who felt their beliefs were threatened (metaphorically speaking, I know no of you hate me, and I hate none of you).

You honour me with your kindness, Assalaam Alaiykum.

I love a man who is passionate about his faith, whatever it may be.

Again, thank you, I will most certainly observe my conduct, I would not want to offend you :)

No, I ask why you think Jesus is divine, I never mentioned (unless i'm forgetting what I wrote lol) that the Qur'an states that he isn't (which it does).  I'm just curious as to the reasons for you beliefs is all.  I don't think I implied superiority in any aspect.  If thats the way I came accross i'm sorry, because it wasen't intended.

Well, since you've asked (and thank you for asking me about my faith) I believe the Qur'an is the final installment of true religion of Allah (The God).  We muslims believe in the torah, and the bible as well.  Most people don't know that, we just believe that the Qur'an is the least corrupted due to sheer age. Which is why we follow it in peticular.

That, is where you would be wrong.  I was raised Anglican grace United.  Perhaps even a subesction of the United church?  I don't know.  I'm a revert (convert) to Islam.  But I believe a live and let live (to use the phrase) policy would be very good in this situation.  If only to curb any future bashing.

Panentheism wrote:

For your information, one of the issues thoughtful Christians struggle with is the one of superiority and exclusivity.

  I think that all religions, cultures, estabilishments, and sociological ideals and standards all struggle with that problem.  So believe me, your pain is felt.

 

Panentheism wrote:

Again fyi, I haven’t heard you admit to any kind of thinking from your side. What does that tell you?

^{Like I said before, I'm not putting my beliefs above yours, ergo I don't think this matters. I just am and inquiring mind.}

 

 

Panentheism wrote:

The 2nd point I want to make about your approach is that you assume that ALL Christians read and interpret the Bible literally. I could of course be wrong about your approach, but I base my statement on the argumentation you put forward.

^{*Sigh* if i've learned anything from this thread it's to explicitly and in minute detail lay out what I mean when I say things.  I did NOT intend to come accross that way (i'm starting to sound like a broken record now aren't I?).  Of course not all christians and biblical scholars interpert it literally...the best don't.  Let me rephrase this.  Why do people think Jesus is divine?  From what I can derive, only literalists believe this.  Show me some metaphorical evidence of a non-literalists view on a divine Jesus.}

 

Panentheism wrote:

I’ll have to admit that many Christians do exactly that, but as you may have noticed, several of the Christians you are corresponding with do NOT read and/or interpret the Bible literally.

  Again, that was not my intention.

 

More replies below:

 

 Of course there are, just as there are christians that don't read the bible literally.  The Qur'an, however, I think is the only religious text (please forgive my possible ignorance) that specifically encourages metaphorical understanding.  The Prophet Muhammed (peace be upon him) taught this kind of understanding.

Yes, you are wrong, just like it appeared that I was wrong (I wasen't because I didn't mean to imply taht all christians were literalists).  For example, every sufi is a definate metaphorical understander.  The problem is that in a lot of places assholes are preaching misinterpreted and extremely literal and twisted Islam, which is the exact kind of thing Islam is actually against.  Stupid Taliban et al.

Thank you for the invitation, I will graciously accept, I think you and me should start another thread for this.  Since it was your idea I propose you start it. :)  see ya there!

 In all honesty?  Geo.  Geo is the reason for this debate.  He invited me to open my ammo crate. lol.  "Yes...I claim Geo!...(temporary insanity it is...)" lol.

I think it is a bit of both with a tidbit of I just want to understand.  People bemoan the ignorance of others, so I decided to learn more about this subject.

^{Thank you, you are always welcome at my table.  Assalaam Alaiykum!}

^-Omni

^{P.S.  This script size is SO annoying :P}

Omni wrote: "it seems to me Jesus is stating (thanks to your highlighting and emphisizing i've noticed this) that before abraham was...I am(God) was...Correct me if i'm wrong."

Friend. Aren't you the one who noted the importance of reading texts in their proper context? Assuming Jesus was talking about God and not himself here is a very elementary misreading of the text. I would like if you could read John 8:48-58 to re-establish the context. You will find that Jesus is addressing a group of Jews about himself who have accused him of being demon-possessed. If Jesus were merely telling them something that they already knew (namely, that God addressed himself as I AM in the Torah), why were they trying to stone him? Wasn't it because Jesus was exalting himself to God's status, committing blasphemy?

Omni wrote: "As unbias as one might try to be, of course they will be predisposed to what they believe.  Otherwise you all wouldn't be defending the divinity of Jesus.  That is why I think Islam is (whats a good way to put this...?) ...more true.  And why most of you think Christianity is more true."

Could you please clarify this statement? Taken at face value, it presents a number of problems. For example, regarding 'predisposure', how does this statement account for born and raised atheists who are now theists, or any other person who have had their views radically changed at some point in their lives? On a different note; in Islam, are not all people are truly born Muslims, accounting for the doctrine of 'reversion' as opposed to 'conversion'? Is this not 'predisposure' of a sort? Or considering the notion of a claim being 'more' or 'less' true...what is the scale by which you measure the degree of a claim's truth? It cannot be via the laws of logic...

The problem with Liefhebber's article is simply this: He removes Jesus from the Semitic world in which he lived. When concepts such as the 'Kingdom of God' or 'Son of Man' are understood as Greco-Roman, it is easy to draw parallels which only end up as mere conspiracies. For example, Liefhebber writes:

"The answer is that Jesus was a man who, as a result of the process of evolution, became a Son of God -- as does everyone eventually."

When Jesus is understood in context (Semitically) as 'Messiah', or 'Son of Man' re. Daniel 7, these have profoundly divine implications. Erroneous comparisons of the life of Christ to those characteristic of ancient Greek mythologies is not a new practice, but is what many scholars would call sloppy or ignorant, perhaps even with an agenda.

Hello Omnissiah,

Hello, I am reading these postings with interest. Although I am taking this a "tad" off topic, I was wondering if you could tell me if there is any truth to the fact that Muhammad tried to commit suicide several times?

What is the truth with regards to this?

I ask this respectfully only to understand your prophet.

I would also like to point out Thomas' Confession in John 20:28 where he said "My Lord and My God" to Jesus when he saw him. Then  Jesus blessed  and accepted the testimony of Thomas and therefore acknowledging that Thomas was right in calling him God,,

29Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Believed what? believe the testmony of Thomas that Jesus is God.

Futhermore Thomas being a God-fearing Jew would not use God’s name in a derogatory manner such as shouting "Oh my God!" out of surprise or fear of seeing the risen Lord,,,,

"You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not leave him unpunished who takes His name in vain." Exodus 20:7

"You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not leave him unpunished who takes His name in vain." Deuteronomy 5:11

Besides, if Thomas had used God’s name in such a manner we would expect Jesus to have rebuked him, much like he implicitly did for not believing that he had been raised. What Jesus did do is Bless him and Jesus was a master of scripture.

So we  know that Thomas confession of who Jesus  is, is true beacuse his use of God was used in corect contex and blessed by Jesus himself.

I think he said that even before abraham he was there because (as far as I can understand) everyone's soul was created in the beginning, and God puts them into bodies as time goes by.  So perhaps Jesus (peace be upon him) is explaining that because he is a chosen of God, he has memories of this time and knows of what he speaks?  I'm not sure, even if he was the son of God where was he during abrahamic times?

Umm, predisposure just means inclination or being more suceptable to...so I don't see your confusion.  i.e People are more prone to believe what they already believe than someone else's take on it.  If the born and raised atheist for example became an theist, well he/she would obviously be inclined to their new ideals, ergo they are predisposed to them.

The reason I itallicized the words more and true was because you can't really measure them.  It's just that we are predisposed to believing that what we have to offer is by default more true than what other people have to offer.  i.e The basic idea that i'm right and your wrong because I think i'm right because it's always been this way...do ya get it?  Am I making sense?

I honestly don't see the confusion.

Assalaam Alaiykum

-Omni

Interesting question.  As it turns out, after his very first revelation, while he was still confused as to his perpose and the authenticity of his revelation, his uncle I think it was died?  He got very depressed adn tried to commit suicide by jumping off a cliff, but every time he tried the angel gabriel stopped him.

Below is a short excerpt from Hadith (traditions) of Bukhari, [2], Volume 9, number 111.

But after a few days Waraqa died and the Divine Inspiration was also paused for a while and the Prophet became so sad as we have heard that he intended several times to throw himself from the tops of high mountains and every time he went up the top of a mountain in order to throw himself down, Gabriel would appear before him and say, "O Muhammad! You are indeed Allah's Apostle in truth" whereupon his heart would become quiet and he would calm down and would return home. And whenever the period of the coming of the inspiration used to become long, he would do as before, but when he used to reach the top of a mountain, Gabriel would appear before him and say to him what he had said before.

Assalaam Alaiykum

-Omni

P.S. AAAH RED!

Omni wrote: "I'm not sure, even if he was the son of God where was he during abrahamic times?"

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1)

"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End." (Rev 22:13)

Omni wrote: "If the born and raised atheist for example became an theist, well he/she would obviously be inclined to their new ideals, ergo they are predisposed to them."

Okay, I understand how you've used this definition. But I still do not see how this statement somehow furthers your case...are you trying to say that because we all have biases, that no one can have a full grip on the truth in reality?

Omni,

Greetings! Read your response to me with a great deal of pleasure. I think the decks are cleared for a good chin-wag among similarly inclined people.

You suggested a new thread which you invited me to start. Splendid! I'll be more than happy to oblige --- under one condition: please reconsider your request and think of the following:

You started a thread which, from all indications, has taken flight. I do have material to share and I do have many questions for you. If you want I'll be happy to start a thread, but please repeat your request Either way we should be able to provide beneficial material for the participants of this verbal vehicle. My feeling is that this is exactly what the United Church had in mind by designing the Wonder Cafe.

AS you notice, the large font has disappeared. Now to find a way to start using a font that is neither annoyingly large nor annoyingly small ... something in between? <;-}

Take care

Panentheist (heads up --- PanentheisM is somebody else. Delightful chap)

Hi Omni....I'm born and raised UCC and believe as margharry and birthstone do concerning Jesus divinity and the Trinity. 

Streetwalker...respectfully, do you believe that there is a difference between worship and relationship with God?  Does your religion teach that worship is necessary for salvation?

"Omni. Jesus said that He came to serve, not to be served, so to me it would make sense that Jesus the man was not worshipped (the woman at Jesus feet however could be said to have worshipped Him). But the miracles He performed and the way He taught, to me could only be done by the hand and mouth of God.  Jesus just didn't have divinity in Him, He was and is divinity, He is God with us."

This is interesting...so when others performed great signs and miracles in the Father's name they too must all be God with us (Moses, Elijah, Elisha, and the apostles too).

It is interesting too to note that in many cases Jesus did not perform his miracles until he had attributed them to the Father by means of a prayer (John 11:41, 42).

Your reasoning implies that Jehovah God cannot give of his power to others.

Surely you agree that Jesus had a prehuman existance. The expression at John 8:58 is quite different from the one used at Exodus 3:14. Jesus did not use it as a name or a title but as a means of explaining his prehuman existence. The Jews wanted to stone Jesus for claiming to “have seen Abraham” although, as they said, he was not yet 50 years old. In fact none of the context refers to Jesus elevating himself to God's position, only that he had seen Abraham.

Audj. God certainly can and did give His power to others. But we know that Mosses, Elijah etc.. were not God's only begotten Son.  Jesus alone holds that unique distinction.  And as mentioned above, Paul acknowledges that Jesus was God as did Peter and Thomas, and as I recall only Jesus has the title of Immanuel - God with us.

God said to Moses that I AM is His name forever, the name which He is to be remembered from generation to generation. God told Moses to tell the Israelites that I AM had sent him. When Jesus said that before Abraham was born, "I AM", that is when the people wanted to stone Him, because He used God's Holy name for Himself. The Jews would not have stoned Him for saying that He existed before Abraham, (as far as I know, that was not a stoneable offence), they just laughed at Him. But when Jesus used God's Holy name for Himself, that is when the people wanted to stone Him because they thought He committed blasphemy, which was punishable by stoning.