Hi crazyheart

If that is your opinion then who is going to change  your opinion --no one unless you are willing to have a open mind to Jesus's way of thinking . Because the Bible clearly states that fear and doubt do NOT come from God ---but from Satan .

Bible says we need to renew our minds ---free will --free choice we either believe God's word or we believe Satan's deception. To doubt or not to doubt ---choice .

I leave you with this ---Bible says  

Philippians 4:19 (King James Version)

World says (Satan)  God word lies and there is no way your supplies will be met by Christ Jesus ---DOUBT --FEAR--UNBELIEF--NO TRUST --WHERE IS AGAPE LOVE

2 Systems ---2 Beliefs    ---WE CHOOSE ----  

Blessings

If doubt comes from Satan, where did Satan come from?

Unsafe - You've said that doubt comes from Satan.  That means that someone who has doubts that Islam is the one true way, who thinks that maybe Christ is the answer - that person's doubts in Islam are from Satan?

Or, are only some doubts - the ones you coincidentally disagree with - from Satan?

unsafe, the same Jesus who taught about false prophets? The same one who taught about great wonders and signs by false prophets? The one who taught that not all who call will enter?

So, are we supposed to doubt or not doubt? 

I am sure Jesus telling his disciples to not just blindly follow, would not be upset that they took his advice, even when it came to him.

If my minister said to kids, "watch out for those who try to lure you alone", they would not get mad if the child would not go alone with them or asked to have another person present or ask if it was ok.

Why do we expect Jesus to be more petty than the corner minister?

...because Jesus is a projection of the best of one's own characteristics? 

(I kid...sorta)

Is questioning or sometimes wanting clarity or an explanation always considered doubting? Because I think I do seek those things.

Faith is the key ---if you have faith --fear and doubt can't be there

Romans 14-23  ²³ But whoever has doubts is condemned if they eat, because their eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

If you have faith in Islam ---then you don't doubt it.

We choose to doubt or we choose to have faith ---if you choose to doubt then that is your choice .

Satan's job is to deceive humans into believing that God's word will not work or come to pass so when we doubt what God's word says Satan has done his job well.   

Peace

Well, are they?

Hi crazyheart...well, of course I don't like anyone bossing me about how to think!  Although the faith without question of unsafe's world is completely foreign to me, I think some people need this kind of direction...but it isn't me.

I doubt, ponder, jabber, revel, KNOW FOR SURE...both ways, doubt some more and very often at my age, rest in the absolute truth that I don't know, and I don't need to.  I accept the moments of joy when I'm in tune with everything and enjoy the doubting, too, when it's there.   

Hi abpenny    your quote  Hi crazyheart...well, of course I don't like anyone bossing me about how to think! 

No one is bossing you about your thinking ---it's your own choice to -- doubt, ponder, jabber, revel, KNOW FOR SURE...both ways, doubt some more

If that's the way you want your thinking to be than your life will be that also ----according to The Bible --

-Proverbs 23-7---- As a man thinketh in his heart so is he.

Peace

You can evaluate the quality of your thoughts simply by evaluating the quality of your life.  If your life is bad, your thoughts are bad.  Your thinking is too negative.  Similarly, if your life is good, it’s because your thoughts are positive.  Going back to our question: How do we escape the downward spiral of failure?  We escape by changing our thoughts.  This must occur first.  We must change our thinking, because remember, our thoughts are the reasons we’re in the spiral to begin with.  Once we change our thinking, our actions and behavior will reflect our thinking, as will our lives. 

unsafe...true enough.  My life is pretty snazzy. 

I think it's ok to doubt because it's human. Of God didn't want us to doubt and learn from doubting, he wouldn't have created us with free will.

Look at Habakkuk ; he pelted God with doubt and in return was answered.

Look at the guy who walked on the water with Jesus, doubted, fell, and yet was caught.

our Father expects us to doubt as much as he expects us to sin. and He loves us still.

and it's not always faith we are doubting - its the legitimacy of what we are learning. I think God would rather I strengthen my faith through inspection and research than blindly pursuing him and thus submitting myself to the wrongdoings that organized religion sometimes finds itself guilty of, simply because i thought it wrong to second-guess.

Hi More-than-a-Sparrow

First of all we need to make sure we understand what the message is that The stories of The Bible is trying to get across .

Peter is the disciple that started to walk on water but then because he took his focus off of Jesus and became afraid and doubted he sank ---that is the thing Satan wants to take your focus off Jesus so you will sink --Jesus saves him but says --oh you of little faith ---Here is that piece of scripture---NOTICE BE NOT AFRAID--it is important to understand the message behind the scripture .Fear and doubt in scripture is explained very clearly ---the way WE INTERPET the scripture is like this we see what we want.

 Be of good cheer; it is I; be not afraid. And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water. And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus. But when he saw the wind [was] boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me. And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt [hesitate]? 

This is a summary of The Book Of Habakkuk and again trust and faith in God is the message --doubting comes from as a result of not understanding God's ways.

The Book of Habakkuk

Habakkuk wrote a book in the Old Testament part of the Bible. Habakkuk was a prophet (holy man). In his book, Habakkuk complained twice to God. Habakkuk asked God why good people must suffer. And, Habakkuk asks why cruel people seem to succeed.

 Firstly, Habakkuk complained that the rulers of his country were wicked. God replied that soldiers from Babylon would attack these wicked rulers (Habakkuk 1:2-11).

But Habakkuk complained to God again. Habakkuk said that God allows cruel people to attack good people (Habakkuk 1:12 to Habakkuk 2:1). God replied that he would punish cruel people. But this does not always happen immediately. But God told Habakkuk to write this down, because God will definitely punish evil people. (Habakkuk 2:2-20).

So, good people must trust God (Habakkuk 2:4). The time will come when God will rule the whole world (Habakkuk 2:14).

The Book of Habakkuk ends with a Psalm (song) - Habakkuk 3. This song says that God will rescue his people

Peace

unsafe...your view is that the bible is literally true.  Posting verses from the bible with your literal interpretations as fact is...well, just your interpretation.  You can't possibly know how God reaches anyone else, so aren't you putting yourself in a higher position than God's spirit?

"I don't know" is good enough for me.

I am reminded of a minister sitting with someone about to die. The person had many questions as the end of life had approached. The minister had travelled that path with them. The clergy took their hand and said, "I do not know what is about to happen. I have not been here before, not in this exact place, ____. I do not know what happens after this is done. I do know people love you, I love you and God loves you." It was the most meaningful thing I ever heard.

I would find that very comforting as well, SG. 

Doubt is very good.

Unless you happen to be a priest whose livlihood depends on the unswerving, unquestioning, unthinking devotion to whatever words you have put in God's mouth.

In that case you'd probably best make sure that the sacred writings specifically tell everyone that doubt is from Satan.

unsafe - I dont want you to assume I have simply forgotten that we are to have, or atleast attempt to have, childlike faith.

I'm just saying, Jesus says "Oh ye of little faith" yet still catches us and pulls us up.

Asl o Habakkuk asks God why he sees so much suffering (which, i'm pretty sure, is questioning, which, i'm prettty sure, is synonymous with doubt) and God doesn't say FOUL FAITHLESS MAN!! YOU ARE CONDEMNED FOREVER!! He says, in a nutshell, look at what I'm going to do, don't give up on me.

not that He will continue to catch us if we never trust - just that a bit of doubting, questioning, hesitation, etc. is expected of us because He made us that way. Ya know?

Hi abpenny  your quote   You can't possibly know how God reaches anyone else, so aren't you putting yourself in a higher position than God's spirit?

You are right I don't know how God reaches out to others but I do know what the scriptures say about doubt and fear and they don't come from God if you or others want to believe that doubt does come from God again that is your interpertation and I could ask the same question to you as well and that is -----

Isn't that your own interpertation and then aren't you putting yourself in a higher position than God's Spirit and Word.   Scripture is very crystal clear on doubt and fear ---you don't have to be a rocket scientist to read and understand where doubt and fear come from. 

For instance  --- 2 Timothy 1:7...
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

The word for "fear" in the verse above is not referring to general fear as it is commonly known. The word in the original greek language is not 'phobos' (foboV) but rather is 'deilias' (deiliaV) which means "cowardice". God has not given us a spirit of cowardice. 

  

This scripture to me says being a coward--or afraid or doubting comes from a spirit which is NOT from God ---we get from God POWER --LOVE--AND A SOUND MIND no mention of doubt--fear ---SO where there is POWER how can doubt be present --Agape LOVE has no doubt ---God gave us a SOUND MIND ---no confusion in a sound mind ---but there is confusion  in doubt .  Learning how to interpet scripture is key we need to get the right study tools and let The Holy Spirit guide us through scripture.

Peter when he walked on the water had God's Power but then this mind went to the wind so his sound mind became confused and he sank ----Your mind is your battle ground ---should I or shouldn't I ---

I leave with this   Luke 6 22   Blessed are you when men hate you, when they exclude you and insult you and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of Man.

Peace--

Yeah, you've used that one before.  But I don't think anyone here has ever hated you, excluded you, or rejected your name as evil.  I do think you've taken a couple of insults, and I also think that, because of your beliefs, you have the most appropriate name on WC.

What you advocate here is willful ignorance - it's the suppression of questioning and the stultification of the intellect.  And I think you're an excellent example of what you preach.

Yah gotta Loveit ...

If God did not have doubts why did theis create Satan in the first place to bug the Furies (or desires) if that's your way of saying ID?

Is it perhaps first the devil as rationale and with all that clear space creation needed something to fog up the issue as myths ... thats' the story of two halves of the mind one emotional and one intellectual and some of the media cannot find any balance ... that's called Sophy's Edge ... well-whetted? Reciprocal issues!

I am called a cynic in the most negative way by many theologians in my sphere of aquaintance (they despise intellect and the intelligencia) some for reasonable logic! My answer is that cynic referred to a group of Greeks that questioned whether everything was physical in nature, as if there was some aesthetic (missing or substituted link). Then these people began to investigate the nature of heat, light, energy in general and relation to moving physical bodies. This culminated in Einstein's alchemy on enegy vs matter that can only been seen as realative to Light ... "i see" or as the elders would say JeSse ... father of aDon's (or as we know eM the beauty Dai, Davide) of the sol' entity the socialistic mind that is lost in individualization ... one must get ID'll together ... that's bred of the sol' ... WORD ... like God or is that Goad for sceptics?

Its a self-critical etude ... like the grand sceptic ... Tom's ... the book de 'ade (or de 'athe, following, latent) that couldn't express himself too well except to admit that he doubted the Light he carried might have been corrupted by hoem (hommoe) that's mortal form of the ole thing ... on the roam looking for answers to the enigma that aMœs'd the power's above ... the power of myth in archaic tongues. One has to step beyond the institution of mortal to encounter all-that-is ... care to step outside mid'Eire ... that's OBI heh! Inside the sculling place is just a big dark poe-L that gonad ... the mind of humanity is pure emotion to disturb clearspace ... amuz meant of the Furies at rest? Fixed Light?

Some think it be institutional ... but it moves .. emotes ... them's passing word ...

Could we call that a well-Kook'd sense ... of criticism about how Love is dunne?

Unsafe...Yes, I understand that you believe that you interpret scripture correctly and that the bible is crystal clear to you.  I understand, as well, that you believe that doubting comes from Satan.  I disagree and at the same time wish you well. 

Luke 6:22!  Luke 6:22!!!!!!

didn't jesus doubt?  in gethsemane did he not question why him?  did he not ask god why he was forsaken?  i think god doesn't want us to follow blindly.  he wants us to question.  he wants us to look deeper.  not to be sheep.

with interpreting the bible literally it seems like god has doubts too.  he really messed up with us didn't he?  he had to send his only son to die for a fallen race.  and not for all the race.  just the elect.  just the chosen few that he made right.  sure glad god doesn't work for general motors.

chansen...yes, I understand that you believe that proven science, only, is the correct interpretation of our lives, and there is no mystery.  There is nothing to us but what we experience in our form.  I disagree with you, too, and at the same time understand that it is perfectly right for you. 

Explain the mystery of Judas Maccabees ... the rogue of the hills of Jerusalem!

Was this contrary to the Roman God? Was Jesus such a renagade, but without actually transcending the law ... except in spirit ... let us see ... pehaps we should look into this darkness ... where authority believes we should be expelled in explicit ways. If we knew what they were doing to common folk (pagans) there'd be eL to pay ... in Light of the situation ... of a pathe-logical Caesar (w/o Karen) ...

Did you know that "eL" in ancient script is "above us" in light of the situation ... sort of like Light myth? The DaeMons giggle ... mortals would never notice the disturbance due to anthropocentric blessings ... a gift of not knowing how they're screwing themselves ... heliocentric activity? Thats a twisted ramp ... like wedge in the soul ... bottom end of the array (or Aries) Bas' ... multidimensional ... but hoo dah Gnoe'n how to bend a non-essentual mind? ID is a denied thing de Luç ional model?

Hi abpenny   Your Quote   I disagree and at the same time wish you well. 

I wish you well also ---Peace and many blessings  Have a great day. 

I've never said or written any such thing.  Science is simply the best method we have of learning and expanding our body of knowledge.  Science does not explain why rum tastes great with Coke.  Some things I'm happy to experience without putting an equation to it.  Sometimes, I need to experience these things time and again in an evening, if I'm not driving later.

chansen...my apologies.  Science thrills me and I prefer rum with soda...dunno why. 

Time to post this again. The reading below by UU minister Robert Weston reflects my thoughts on the subject perfectly. Should just stick on my wall and link to it every time this topic comes up, I guess.

Cherish your doubts, for doubt is the handmaiden of truth.
Doubt is the key to the door of knowledge; it is the servant of discovery.
A belief which may not be questioned binds us to error,
 for there is incompleteness and imperfection in every belief.
Doubt is the touchstone of truth; it is an acid which eats away the false.
Let no man fear for the truth, that doubt may consume it; for doubt is a testing of belief.
The truth stands boldly and unafraid; it is not shaken by the testing;
For truth, if it be truth, arises from each testing stronger, more secure.
He that would silence doubt is filled with fear;
 the house of his spirit is built on shifting sands.
But he that fears no doubt, and knows its use, is founded on a rock.
He shall walk in the light of growing knowledge;
 the work of his hands shall endure.
Therefore let us not fear doubt, but let us rejoice in its help:
 It is to the wise as a staff to the blind;
 doubt is the handmaiden of truth.

Mendalla

Good reminder Mendalla!

I like that, Mendalla! 

chansen...I was thinking a bit about your statement that science is the best method we have of learning and expanding our body of knowledge.

I agree that science is the best method for answering questions about our physical world and wouldn't dream of going to the bible to answer questions about evolution, space, medicine, etc.  but I wouldn't dream of going to science to answer questions about my spirituality, either. 

Heh,

Going to any book of past knowledge is questioning that knowledge as wisdom ... sort of like cynicism as scepticism ... wondering about a creative way of carrying on ... mankind appears to have missed that sceince (observation) but then mankind tends to rest in the shadows of space ... desires not thoughts of grvid stuff!

Is everything flawed ... with cracks in their essense ... that appears to be implicit and explicit ... so eventually one has to get beyond themselves in anthropocentric myth. How could we resolve that?

Any body read  Dr. John McWhorter's book ... The Power of Babel? This alludes to a chaos of words vs a chaos of emotion ... a supreme enigma in rapturous space ... that's beyond eh! Some don't believe ... that anything significant follows them as latent mire ... the dirt on the future is in your hand ... shape it creatively and lovingly ... not blindly like a god running on intuition alone! CEO's and leaders of business come to mind ... Is the church business or spiritual ... getting beyond its walls?

What answer are you getting from the bible or Christianity that you could not get elsewhere?  What do you have to check it against?

If you prefer any answer to a question over no answer at all, perhaps religion is of some use to you.  I don't feel that way, but I can see the comfort some people take in having an answer...any answer...to deep questions they may have.

I think that I've reached the point where religion/spirituality isn't about answers; it's about thinking about my place in the universe and what it all means. It's trying to understand the connections between me and thee and the universe at large from the standpoint of what they mean, rather than simply quantifying them (I get that from science). There may not be complete answers to these sorts of questions, but just thinking about them helps clarify things for me sometimes. The Bible (and any spiritual source, for that matter) isn't a source of pat answers but of possible answers and ideas to think about and wonder about. That's why we UUs acknowledge multiple sources, not one, set scripture. That's why one of my favorite hymns ends "and in our search for peace, maybe we'll finally see that even to question truly is an answer."

Mendalla

But the bible certainly is a source of pat answers for many Christians, and they can point to scripture that indicates it is absolutely a source of pat answers, and your refusal to accept them is downright heretical.  You probably care about that about as much as I do, but the bible certainly does attempt to provide answers.  It's just remarkably bad at it.

That, I could buy into.  We need to question.  Even if the questioning is Sisyphean in nature, we need to seek answers and not be content with what people tell us on authority.

chansen...my interest in the bible and the spirit of the words attributed to Jesus are not to accept any doctrine or dogma.  I'm interested in the whole realm of who we are...mind, body, spirit.  I read and grow, personally, from many sources...including science. 

I don't need to prove or disprove any of my beliefs or even feelings to myself.  I enjoy the trip. 

How many say the only answer is blind faith in what you've been told by certain authority ...

Then there is this from Romans 15:4 ... it has to make one think and question all things:

For everything that was written in the past ...

Was written to teach us, so that through ...

Endurance (patience) and the encouragement of the ...

Scriptures we might have only hope ...

One ask to ask what are scriptures? Would that be written records of lesson learned in the past? Who would care enough to record such errors? Then we had Romans that burnt a great deal of records 2000 years ago ... for what reason ... to warp hope of learning? Then Romans thought a thinking man dangerous ... such things still stick to our systems of belief ... -isms! But then one would have to understand such alien syla-bulls!

And the message this is trying to get across...

****

<< Romans 14 >>
New American Standard Bible

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Principles of Conscience

1Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions. 2One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only. 3The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

5One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God. 7For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself; 8for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. 9For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

10But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.

11For it is written,
“AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME,
AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD.”

12So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.

13Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this—not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother’s way

***

or this

***

<< 1 Corinthians 13 >>
New American Standard Bible 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Excellence of Love

1If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing. 

****

Personally I do not doubt the value of the message in those passages nor the all encompassing statement of love and acceptance.   I do doubt those who claim they get "IT" yet fail to act accordingly.  The final judgment, I have no doubt, will not be ours...

LB

40“On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”
     Mathew 22

Whatever helps me be aware, makes me wake up, of my involvment with whatever it is that I am doing or experiencing is good :3

(between the twin goalposts of the two nihilisms: nothing is real and everything is exactly the same)

Thomas was written that way for a reason.  What possible reasons are there?  I think there is more than one that fit well with His narrative.  If I take the Bible in the way as a dance that I am supposed to be guided, the Thomas narrative could be "Look, even even if you have proof that universe is full of grace, be aware that you will be tested like Thomas was, don't agonize too much, it's quite normal."

Taking Thomas as a person, what Thomas is doing isn't done out of the blue, but in reaction to things...I don't know if I'd be brave enough to not do what Thomas did :3

Then didn't Ba'aLem's ass dance along the way of institutionalization ... led bi God by hoo dah ... the covenented one? One should knock ask, question ... or how would we know? IÐ's beyond a mortal ... I'd buy a faere stretch of that sol' ... not selling anything you've got until it's figured ... oude!