Welcome to Wondercafe Ichthys.

Good to have you here to be another voice & ears.

I don't realy delve into an opinion of a cirtain character of one regarding the nature of ones label.

Some here at WC have a hard time trusting the canon as a infallable & true "Word of God".

I personally look at scripture as a source of Godly instruction of the most perfect of kind.

The thing is when the law was expressed as a source of information with regards to a perfect Kingdom, it became flawed by the carnal mind of mankind & it became "extreme" with regards to the taking of the promised land.

The precepts & ordinances were to establish an image of rightiousness yet became corrupted by our own interpretations throughout scripture this is so referanced!!!!

Jesus is the Full Referance of scripture.

Why does misconsception come to a surprise in this age?

It is our human condition to doubt God's Word you see.

God bless you real good in Christ!

Bolt

Evangelical does not mean conservative or charismatic.  It means one who shares the good news.  AS such all churches need to be evangelical.

Unfortunately it is one of those words that we in the mainline have allowed to be defined by conservative and fundamentalist denominations.

Much like others have taken the word progressive - a word that should mean moving forward into truth, not away from or avoid the truth.

Welcome to WonderCafe, Ichthys. I have been hanging out here at WonderCafe for about three years. At first it seemed like a rather like a school made up of strange fish. But now it seems more like an extended family to me. We attempt to see through the stereotypes and view one another as family members. We spend quite a bit of time discussing contentious issues and we tend to discuss them to death. But not in a deadly fight. We accept one another's viewpoints and welcome people of all faiths. 

As a new member, I hope you will continue to post your observations. We tend to be quite good at listening to others' viewpoints.

Welcome to Wondercafe!

Is that a shark fin on your avatar?

 Welcome Ichthys

The United Church that is growing the most in my town seems to be the ones that are most welcoming of diversity. Especially those that welcome immigrants.  

What do you believe to be the basic tenants of Christianity?  

I believe that they are loving your neighbour, God and yourself.  I am a Christian myself, and I usually fail at following these tenants. However that does not mean that I do not believe in them.

Evangelicals in my experience are a diverse group.  Stereotypes of any group of people are usually false.

IMHO I would rather have a Evengelical as a friend that tries to practice what Jesus taught then to have someone who is not evengelical who does not believe in loving herself, God and her neighbours.

welcome to the cafe :)

i have learnt, mainly from this site, there are two ways of looking at "religion". one way is as a sheep, accepting only what you have been told and accepting, with eyes wide shut, what has been interpreted by someone else.  or as a human being, using what the creator gave you and fully intended you to use.  some are too busy focusing on all the rules of religion, forgetting that even jesus healed on the sabbath, even jesus forgave sinners and even jesus was against the hypocrites.  it's easy to lose god when you're too focused on the technicalities.  there is no room for growth otherwise.

i have never felt closer to god than i do today and it is all thanks to what i have learned here.  there are a wide range of views here --- some will rock the foundation of your belief and some will strengthen the foundation.  there is much wisdom here.  sometimes the greatest learning is done listening instead of preaching.  there were many times i was leaving, but never have.  god works in mysterious ways.  this was my way of finding him.  looking within.

the greatest deception, in my opinion, is god has done things to punish us and had to sacrifice "his" son to "save us", a view many "christians" hold.  for me, god created us, perfectly, in "his" image.  "he" bestowed free will to allow us to experience all life has to offer and to look for "him" when the road is rocky, so that "he" may carry us.  jesus died, in my opinion, as the ultimate example of the golden rule.  love your neigbour as yourself --- be willing to give of yourself at all costs, this is how much we are loved and how much we should love.

a few things that weren't written in the bible, but also offer much wisdom:

One of the things Jesus did was to step aside from the organized religion of his time because it had become corrupt and bogged down with rules. Rules became more important than feeding the hungry.
— Corita Kent (1918-1986), American former nun, graphic artist; quoted in The Los Angeles Times, 11 July 1974

We first serve the anti-Christ outside of ourselves for many lifetimes until we finally wake up. Then we discover that was illusion and the real Christ is within ourselves.

When thou prayest, rather let thy heart be without words than thy words without heart.

my daily prayer:

I asked God...

I asked God to take away my pain.
God said, No
- It is not for me to take away,
but for you to give it up.
 
I asked God to make my handicapped child whole.
God said, No
- Her spirit was whole,
her body was only temporary.

I asked God to grant me patience.
God said, No
- Patience is a by-product of tribulations;
it isn't granted, it is earned.

I asked God to give me happiness.
God said, No
- I give you blessings.
Happiness is up to you.

I asked God to spare me pain.
God said, No
- Suffering draws you apart from worldly cares
and brings you closer to me.

I asked God to make my spirit grow.
God said, No
- You must grow on your own,
but I will prune you to make you fruitful.

I asked for all things that I might enjoy life.
God said, No
- I will give you life
so that you may enjoy all things.

I ask God to help me LOVE others,
as much as he loves me.
God said...
Ahhhh, finally you have the idea.

~Claudia Minden Weisz~

hopefully you stick around :)

oh,  and just another thing, the ones that have taught me the most, didn't believe in god at all., not those who professed to have the most faith and those who claimed to be the closest to god.  who would have thought?

okay, last thing, i promise.... be wary of those wanting to save you.... we've already been saved :)

i'm now stepping away from the thread.... here i go.....

Ah but what is truth?

Hello Ichthys......
I come from what would commonly be referred to as a classical, chrismatic, conservative, evangelical, fundamentalist denomination.     That's quite a mouthful LOL.   I have a deep personal relationship with Jesus and I feel that I adhere to the basic principles of christianity.    The bible is very important to me in what it does say and also in what it does not say.   I sincerely feel that there that is much that is not said as it is personal and private between the person and God.   To illustrate that I will refer to the "woman at the well" story.   Only the parts of the conversation that were meant to be public are recorded.   There is much that is not as I believe that God also guards our privacy.    I am so glad that you have joined us!    I find the doubt here refreshing as here we can finally say the things that are in our hearts that cannot be said in "polite christian church conversation".   I do hope you understand what I mean by that and it certainly is meant to be "tongue in cheek" for certain cases only.   Here I find that the doubts and thoughts expressed help me understand and appreciate other viewpoints as well as question and more deeply define my own in a healthy way.   I am of the the opinion that any belief held that cannot withstand questioning is very suspect.    More often than not I do not have a satisfactory answer but I still believe.   What I have found is I have grown in faith rather than diminshed in faith.   I am facing my "I don't knows" and I am so glad that I have a God that is large enough to hold my hand as I do.    I do hope some of this makes sense and here I go long winded again LOL.   You will get used to me in time.
Rita

Indeed. An interesting question to pose, especially to Snip.

"What is truth?" Pilate asked Jesus.

We all know Jesus' answer: "I am the truth; I am the way; I am the light." He didn't say that he knew the truth (or the way, or the light), he said that he was the truth (and the way, and the light). It seems that Jesus' truth, way, and light was being rather than knowing.

I, too, think that truth is in pure being, pure experiencing. Experiencing objective reality as it really is, not as we think it is, is experiencing truth. For most people, this experience is powerfully unitive, evoking unitive love, unitive consciousness and conscience. Thinking and acting directly from that experience of truth is being truth, being the way, and being light.

Pure being can be experienced when we turn inward, away from the incessant chatter of our thoughts, in meditation, meditative prayer, or any meditative or contemplative activity or exercise.

I think that the experience of truth, of the unitive state, and thinking and acting directly from that state was Jesus' "kingdom."

This is an interesting way of describing this concept.

I do bolster the element of the Spiritual in this concept.

I believe that the keys to the Kingdom are the "understanding" of this "being" as in, adopting Him as the originator.

Jesus is the beginning, & He will be the End, if & when time ever stops.

I sometimes with great thought, ponder of the whole concept of God/man, without Christ as the focal point of this concept.

I just cannot do it.

 I am so convinced of the merrit of Christ as our originator & the "state of being " in which to base our lifestyle to be that which is parrallel to the Kingdom of heaven.

The absolute nature of the wages of sin, & the absolute nature in which the wages were payed, doesn't offend my intelect at all.

Which may not say much to you, but it speaks volumes to me.

Bolt

hey  thats what  Pontius Pilate said, get your own lines

Jesus knew who he was and opreated in that knowing, he did not need to say He know the truth because Jesus knew that He is, for Jesus , Being Truth is Knowing

Holy crap.  Do you read your posts before saving them?

i do, aparently you dont

Quoted for posterity.

hamson

got it

Just want to say I love this prayer, thanks for posting it.

So where is the "wonder" in the wondercafe? I have read some topics and it seems that people here tend to refuse that miracles actually happened or reinterpret biblical stories up to the point where the literally declare God impotent. That shocks me as I see in this a way to find a "compromise" with secularism and faith. But God doesn't make compromises, he wants you with all your heart and soul and I think that means to believe that he made miracles in the past and today.

Regarding my faith, my first principle was to read and to understand the Bible completely on my own. If God exists, he would show me the truth. After finishing the New Testament, I began to search for beliefs and traditions that agreed with my one. I came to the conclusion that in most issues I agree with evangelicals except that I believe in theistic evolution, do not believe in an immortal soul, refuse any Catholic tradition that were a compromise between European paganism and Christianity (Christmas), do not believe that we go immediately to heaven, but instead sleep until Jesus comes back. I also do not believe in hell as there are only two references of eternal pain, but more than 50 references to just complete death. I have a problem with the definition of trinity. It is confusing and undermines monotheism.

I am glad to see Christian responses and as far as I know, chansen is an atheist. @momsfruitcake I like your poem. I cannot call it prayer as I talk to God with you and not in the third person :-) But it is beautiful and would be a great response to atheists.

Well, I hope you tend to look around some, before you decide to leave.

Bolt

Right. I think all here are familar with the fish symbol "ichthys." The orange shark fin stands for a more aggressive form of Christianity. Simply said it symbolizes a new movement that wants to show that it believes in a living Jesus. The orange color stands for protestantism (sorry Catholics but I think you guys are too slow).

 He's still young.

 Oh I almost forgot. THANK YOU so much for the warm welcome! For every warm welcome I will stay for a week.  

God bless you

 Wow, you have a sense of humer, I think you'll stick around then.

Bolt

 Oh, there's  a lot of wonder in the cafe, Ichthys... 

You'll probably find a wide variety of beliefs expressed here - some which you will define as Christian, others which you won't. Some of the people you'll be chatting with will self-define as Christian, others as disciples in other faith traditions, others as athiest.

Makes for some interesting conversations - and some huge disagreements.

I noted in your previous post that you read through the new testament as you worked to articulate your beliefs. I may be mis-reading it, but, did you stop there? If so... why?

Along with everyone else - welcome!

Christ's peace - r

Yeah buddy, you don't want to be at an exclusive site in any way man, this place is a treasure trove of important information for the support of a strategic & progressive ministry.

If progressive, or agressive,  is your prime motivation, than this is a great place to learn some very important principles.

Bolt

Warm Welcome Ichthys.

I like that you focus on the Good News instead of hellfire and damnation.

Welcome Ichthys, this is a pretty diverse group, and wonder comes in many forms.

I hope you stick around and participate in conversations around the board. You will find something that interests you.

Greetings Icthys, welcome to Wondercafe. It is sad how some who claim to follow Christ find fault with the Bible and basic Christian principles.

Personally I am a conservative evangelical Christian but I am not in the United Church.

well then, THE BIGEST WARM WELLCOME TO YOU BROTHER

I hope you stay permenant

Welcome also from the likes of me.

The way you describe your beliefs it sounds like the JW's. Are you a JW?

Chansen, look out!  It's a young aggressive christian evangelical! lol

Welcome to the jungle!

As-salaamu alaikum

-Omni

Take a look at this thread.

http://www.wondercafe.ca/discussion/religion-and-faith/mystical-experiences-among-progressive-christians

Alex

I read all of your thread. Wow......!!!!!.....Best on the WC !  Thanks.

Welcome - it is always good to see new people on the Cafe.  To read what they post and to get to know them; to exchange ideas and to share our faith, our understanding, our beliefs, and to be evangetical and share the good news of God's love for each and every one of us.

The wonder on the WonderCafe?   This is a place where we are permitted, no encouraged to wonder.  To wonder about many questions of religious beliefs and practices, about puzzling stories in the Bible, about books we have read, about how others interpret the scripture and the world around them and experience the Holy.  I love visiting the Cafe and I hope that you learn to as well.

As others have said there are a wide variety of beliefs expressed here.  There are a wide variety of beliefs within the United Church itself, there are people here from other Christian denominations, there are people from non-Christian faith traditions, there are pagans, and there are athiests.  All are welcome.

Yeas, you are right. I read the old testament jsut partially (e.g. Genesis, some splams, and some other chapters here and there but never completely) because of several reasons.

First: German is my native language (although I'm from Rwanda) and I'm still waiting for a good translation. No Luther is biased, and no, the new international version is too simple. Don't ask me about King James, I'm not a native speaker and all this "thou" and "thee" is making me crazy. I want to read the Bible, not Shakespeare. I think Jesus would say that, too.

Second: I think it was primarily directed to Jews and not the new people. I mean Jesus came back and talks to us! THis gives the new testament a much stronger meaning for a Christian's faith. In addition to that, I think Jesus's life, stories, teachings and the stories and teachings of the disciples not only perfectly summarizing the message of the previous 800 pages. They also reform the whole system. It is a new covenant, so it doesn't make sense to stare at teh old one.

E.g. Last time when I read the "all fascinating" proverbs to find out why so many Christians love the wise messages of Salomon, I was not impressed. When you read the whole new testament, understanding it word by word and you love God and your neighbor and keep all the commandments by heart, proverbs should be no-brainers for you. And that's what I felt.

Short: The more I read the old testament, the more it feels to me as a preface for people who are completely new to Christian faith rather than to christians, raised in a christian family who have found back to Jesus.

So, yeah. I will start to read the old testament. And no, I'm not baptised yet. I come from an evangelical church that believes that children should not be baptised against their will.

Ah! Omnissiah is a muslim, no doubt. Nobody would point out that I am a christian, as many atheists refer to us as the evil evil "organized religion."

I have another question. What if we are permitted to wonder, but discouraged by others? Is this the right place to talk about your faith without ten comments that say that I am crazy?

Since you identify as a conservative evangelical you will find that some people here agree with you and other people will criticize your opinions.  You might gain insight from reading about why some people are atheist, why some people choose non-Christian beliefs, or interpret Christianity differently from you.

You mention that you are from Rwanda.  You will find that attitudes in Canada are very different from what you may be used to. 

Ichthys - this is the right place to talk about your faith but you will find that somepeople either do not have the skills for an honest exchange of ideas without insults, others seem to enjoy their own wit and ability to put others down, and others perhaps are frightened by why you say.  But everybody has the right to discuss their faith here - admin will step in at times if something is truly offensive. 

So far, although I have disagreed with some of your statements, I find nothing offensive in your posts.

Which brings us to your attitude about the Hebrew scriptures - the scriptures Jesus learned.  I find them a valuable part of the Christian Bible.  They give us insight into hundreds of years of a people's understanding of their relationship with God.  Much of what is most valuable in the Gospels and the Epistles was first developed in by the Hebrew people.  Jesus first commandments about Love the Lord your God with all your heart . . . and your neighbour as yourself was first written in Exodus and Deuteronomy.  Jesus statement about why he had come:  to preach the good news to the poor, heal the sick, etc  was a quote from Isaiah.    The Hebrew scripture tells of a development of a people from wondering tribesmen, to slaves in Egypt, to a confederation of tribes trying to gain a foothold on the land, to a kingdom that flourished and then was conquered and taken into captivity again.  During this history they developed a remarkable understanding of God and of their place in God's world, and a remarkable understanding of their relationship with each other and with others. 

Yes, the gospels tell a wonderful story of Jesus life on earth and his teaching and example of how to live in relationship to God, and the epistles develop an understanding of the meaning of this in the development of the Christian faith, but that does not mean that we cannot appreciate and learn from the writings of the centuries that went before.

Also, I don't think that all knowledge, insight and learning stopped almost 2000 years ago.  The Spirit still inspires people to study, think, and express their faith and many good books about the faith have been written in the last 2000 years - even in the past century, and continue to be written today.

I will add my welcome and a comment that in the diversity of our membership we all have opportunities to learn adn grow.

I might grow from reading any ones post, whether I agree or not. 

The message that comes through loud and clear here is that there are many ways to express our love of God and that the spiritual journey is continuous and has many stops along the way.

Some here are starting a journey, some have found a stop they like and they are staying there.  Soem have taken a detour and are exploring another path.

That doesn't mean they are not serious in their quest for udnerstanding of God and our relationships.

It simply means they are at a different spot on the road.  Many here have been through a literal interpretation of the bible and have found they are ready to move to another understanding.

I am surprised that you haven't delved into the Old Testament.  The bible Jesus read and knew and grew up with .  Jesus worked to show his people a new understanding of our relationship with GOd but he didn't through out the history they had lived with .  He just added to it.

I also think that reading  a variety of theologians can do alot to offer interpretations and understanding of the bible.

Most of us  do not have the time or ability to spend years researching and learning the information to adequately understand historic cultures adn language and nuance.  The knowledge of that nuance and cultural customs often illustrates a story in very different ways

Hi Ichthys - and welcome to the WonderCafe.   As others have said, it's a pretty interesting place!   Just like in real life - I find that some people will be more respectful than others in posting their comments.

In my experience, when one posts respectfully, one usually receives respectful replies.  I've found it really helpful to try to make sure I clearly state that things are my own thoughts (or reference them if I'm quoting from somewhere),  to be posting from an "I" perspective rather than one that proclaims to know what is absolute truth for the world.   Those "always" or "never" type of statements usually create problems - in RL as well as here.

That said, there are a few folks who, in my view, seems to just post to create uproar and argument, not to further a discussion.  In real life I usually walk away from them - here I do the equivalent.   You'll gradually come to see who they are, and can make your own choices. 

So - hopefully you'll stick around!  

  Ichthys 

    A big Welcome to you -Please stick around God is with you and so am I--Your needed here.

     Many Blessings

Oh, no please don't come with this stuff. I was raised in Germany, I have a very European and evangelical view with almost no African influence (except the fact that I oppose pagan influence in Christianity).

Oh dear - you oppose the pagan influence in Christianity yet it has been there almost from the beginning.  In fact, many of our Christmas customs had their roots in the pagan midwinter festivals.  We have incorporated them into our Christian festivities to the point that it is hard to know where one starts and the other leaves off.

Let me add to the welcome chorus Ichthys. While most of the coffee drinkers around here are Canadian, we have a few others, including an Aussie. I think a "European evangelical" will be a good addition. Especially since the common wisdom on this side of the ocean is that Europe is rapidly become secular. Sounds like you're running against the current.

Your list of beliefs was interesting. No immortal soul? And yet you still believe in heaven. Or did I misunderstand you?

No, you are right somehow.   Conditional immortality: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_conditionalism

Thanks, finally someone who appreciates that I am swimming against the current. YOu know, it is very difficult. The moment you state your beliefs, people begin to talk behind your back about you. They even laugh or consideryou crazy for being religous. I even came to a point where I didn't want to talk about my faith and I am still very careful when I talk about my faith.

That's why I appreciate the growing evangelical churches so much. They go back to basics. E.g. When jews and christians were singing during Jesus's time, the songs were pretty straight forward. Many evangelical churches have bands, even hip hop music. The church architecture does not identify with any former architectures based on pagain tradition (e.g. Gothic). There are almost no  pictures of Jesus and definitely no Maria images, instead symboles such as doves, ichthys and the cross.

It seem to me that many of the churches in this place that self identify as 'evangetical' have Christmas trees, lights, and even visits from Santa Claus. 

The church I attend is definitely evangelical in sharing the good news of the love of God (with emphasis this time of year on the birth of Jesus), but as far as I know we don't worry about the pagan symbolism (including fixing the date of Jesus birth with the winter solstice).  We do however concern ourselves about commercialism at Christmas.