SO on the one hand there is really nothing wrong with them but on the other we refuse to do them.

WHat's confusing about that??

Mind you they have likely managed to infuriate people at both esxtremes--and that is always fun.

i believe it was the correct decesion.If they chose otherwise they would be out of communion with the mayority of their church.Now before you say " so What " consider the consequences. The church basily splits apart.On one side you have the rich , properous north saying yes and you have the poor south saying no. In other words a north south devide between rich and poor.Why does the church have to take such a bunker type attitude whenever a major decesion have to be made.I dont like this I'am gone etc. Eventually there wont be anyone left.I believe there is a time and place for everything. I believe everyone must move together at the same time or not at all.To those who are disappointed. Get over it . Life is not all roses..

I think it was a step in the right direction but moderated to prevent an all out inter Church war.

I think it was a huge display of passive aggressive behaviour. First they recognize that there is nothing wrong with it...but, then vote against allowing it out of recognition that in the current politcal climate Canadian Anglicans would be pushed out of the denomination by the anti-gay forces.

If they had decided to allow same-sex celebrations in their churches, and that would have divided the church, at least they would have had a kindred spirit in the United Church of Canada. We've been dealing with the divisiveness of the issue ever since. It's a part of making tough decisions like these, but we agree to struggle together. I wish the Anglican Church would have joined us in this struggle.

I think in the long run they will rue this decision big time!

The people of the church, and the leaders in the congregations have attested that they support the proposal.
The senior leadership in the nation was split. They have direct responsibility to the global church.

My sense is this is a failure of the senior leadership of the church, and the world church senior leadership.

There are clear communication issues, and an ostrich-like process.
This division has been predictable since at least '88 if not before. If the Angican church senior leadership did not see the writing on the wall, since our votes and strife, then, shame on them.

Then again, there is another way of looking at it. The senior leadership has clearly sent a message to the global church. The Canadian Anglican church was close to sending a strong message to the world church. Could the vote have been orchestrated to send that message? I hope not. The pain they have caused within their own church and to the GLBT community and their supporters would be unexcusable.

The decision will only continue to cause dissention in the Canadian Anglican Church. While the Bishops might have voted against the motion to preserve unity in the world wide communion, they have driven a fatal blow to unity within the Canadian Anglican Church. This issue will not go away because it is a fundamental human rights and equality issue.
I seem to remember another critical vote where the laiety and clergy voted in favour and the bishops voted against - the uniting of the Anglican and United Churches. They were wrong then and they are wrong now.

The Anglican Church of Canada already decided that it is a matter of doctrine, just not core doctrine (the creeds don't mention marriage at all). The difference between pastoral and doctrinal matters is important. There is precedent for churches to have different stances on pastoral matters, such as the Canadian church having women priests and bishops, the UK church having women priests, no bishops, and other churches having only male priests. Doctrinal differences are cause for schism.

Margharry said:
"While the Bishops might have voted against the motion to preserve unity in the world wide communion, they have driven a fatal blow to unity within the Canadian Anglican Church."

If you want to read a powerful article on the fallacy of "preserving church unity" I strongly recommenf that you read an on-line article about the Church of England who faced a similar dilemma in 2003 when Canon Jeffrey John was forced to withdraw from his appointment as the Bishop of Reading in the Church of England because he was an openly gay. The article can be found at:

https://secure.agoramedia.com/spong/week46story1.asp

The article is way too long to post, but here are a some brief quotes:

"What does unity mean in this context? Does it imply that the church is somehow endowed with eternal and unchanging truth that, if challenged, destroys the church's unity? Does it mean that a new idea cannot emerge in the church's life unless it achieves overwhelming and instantaneous acceptance, lest by being premature it might disturb the church's unity?

"Those who challenged that segregated pattern in the 40's and 50's were said to be threatening the unity of the Church. To be united in racism was hardly a desirable goal and it was later declared to be illegal by the United States Supreme Court. But those 'racial agitators' were nonetheless roundly condemned for disturbing the Church's unity."

"Unity is a minor and secondary virtue in the effective witness of the church. It is not a primary virtue. Truth is, and truth must trump unity every time. To listen to those who traffic in ignorance and prejudice claim that the unity of the Church inhibits them from having to face either their ignorance or their prejudice is appalling. "

"Unity is achieved in the church only by rejecting or silencing those who disagree. The unity of the Church of England was not preserved by the withdrawal of Canon Jeffrey John to the appointment as Bishop of Reading. The only thing that was preserved was the façade of power in the ranks of the hierarchy. Thousands of people were newly disaffected from the church by its calloused rejection of a good and decent man from the office of bishop because he was a homosexual."

So I guess if you want your civil marriage blessed, you need to appeal upstairs to the Archbishop of Canterbury, H.M. The Queen, or even higher. That should work. God blesses everybody.

The Anglican decision not to allow same-sex blessings was...
...tea time with the Mad Hatter.

I agree with StrongSpirit32 and think that post was well articulated. I would add to it the assertion that many people look to their religion for guidance and leadership. The Anglican Church position statement is fence-sitting.

However, I am not a member of the Anglican church. It is the members themselves who will hold their leadership accountable. Who are we to judge?

Thanks, phd_twin_mom. I can understand where the Anglican Church is coming from. They are scared. I just offer two options and ask what is more scary. Is it one, causing disagreement and risking possible division in their church (we've been there, done that and are continuing to live with that through our own decisions made in the United Church)? Or is it two, affirming couples and families who have found love in their lives in less traditional ways? I just think we need to choose love for those individuals and families that have found love in each other rather than church politics.

We are all gods children. Unfortunately being human makes us selfish at times. Which then brings up the question why are we sinners? In many parts of god's book it states what is right and wrong when it is about marriage. This is why same sex marriages should not be. I do not dislike anyone based on there lifestyle, but when it comes to this topic I disagree. I also disagree with any denomination of christian faith to be excepting this lifestyle. Open our doors to everyone, absolutely. We can show why it is wrong, but don't be excepting it as a church only based on that you are loosing people in your church or you are being pressured to do so. Jesus did not give in when pressure was on him. He stood up for gods word every second. Follow the path of Jesus and you will live for eternity.

Roddy100 said:
"This is why same sex marriages should not be. I do not dislike anyone based on there lifestyle, but when it comes to this topic I disagree. I also disagree with any denomination of christian faith to be excepting this lifestyle. Open our doors to everyone, absolutely. We can show why it is wrong, but don't be excepting it as a church only based on that you are loosing people in your church or you are being pressured to do so. "

Just for the record, the United Church's reason for supporting same gender marriage was NOT because we were losing people or because we were pressured. It was because it was a justice issue based on our understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ. It was the right thing to do and the loving thing to do.

I wonder wrote:
"Just for the record, the United Church's reason for supporting same gender marriage was NOT because we were losing people or because we were pressured. It was because it was a justice issue based on our understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ. It was the right thing to do and the loving thing to do."

Well I guess we will have to toss out Romans 1:26-32 which clearly states GOD's wrath is against those that practice these acts, agree with them or help them out in their perverse ways,
Genesis 1:27-28 GOD made them Male and Female and they should be fruitful and multiply.
Ge 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
Genesis 19 Sodom and Gomorrah, Destroyed for their perverse acts.
Lev 18:22 Thou shall not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
Anal sex is detestable to the LORD Lev 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lay with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Acceptance of someone's sinful behavior is not loving, that is the opposite of love, we are commanded to flee from all forms of evil and cling to righteousness.
1Timothy 6:11* But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
2Timothy 2:22* Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
James 4:7* Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

If all of the writers of the books of the Bible share the same Holy Spirit, then Paul writing to the believers in Rome, would be in agreement with Moses writing to the Nation of Israel in the book of Leviticus and they are, GOD looks at homosexuality as sin. Your church's positional problem is they have let things slip too far into the accepting of sinful acts as acceptable acts now there is no turning back. When we actually read the Word of GOD we can see the heart of GOD, but if we read it with our own agenda, we will use the passages of love and say it is acceptable for someone to be a practicing homosexual or lesbian, what about that child molester or the person who wants to have sex with animals. Plain and simple our Lord says it's wrong to not only engage in these activities, but it is wrong to speak of them in a good manner. Isaiah 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Jesus lived, died and rose again to set sinners free, not to keep them in their sins. You do not pull a child out of a mud puddle, clean them off and they are clean and dry, place them back into that same mud puddle. Anyone with children would be viewed as a bad parent and more than likely child services would pay you a visit or two, If GOD tells us CLEARLY in his word homosexuality is forbidden, why are those trying to change what GOD has already said, as if it was never in the bible?

j.

Hi Jay2000
It is pretty obvious that you an I are poles apart in our views on homosexuality, and I imagine that no amount of discussion would bring us together on this issue. So this is one of those instances when the best way for us to care for each other is to agree to disagree.

It would appear that your condemnation of homosexuality is primarily based on several biblical scripture passages quoted in your post. Once again I assume that we disagree on the way we look at the Bible.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it appears that you consider the Bible to be "The Word of God". I too can accept that the Bible contains "The Word of God", but it also contains a lot of other words of many fallible human beings who are trying to express their understanding of God. The Bible authors may have been very good and very well intentioned people, but they were limited by what they understood about their world, and therefore their words about God could not be separated from the social structures and ethical systems in which they lived out their lives.

The Bible was written between about 10 centuries B.C. to the early 2nd century A.D. so it contains many ideas from that period of history that are just plain wrong, based on today's knowledge of chemistry, physics, astronomy, medicine etc. For instance we no longer think that illness of children is caused by the sins of their parents, as is sometimes inferred in the Bible. We no longer consider epileptic seizures as being caused by demon possession, as they did in Jesus' time.

There is mounting medical, biological evidence that homosexuality is not a choice, but is a genetic or biological predisposition of which the person has very little if any choice. I realize that as soon as I say that, there are people who will find a study that says something else, but the majority of psychological, medical, biological and genetic evidence says otherwise.

Even if that argument is dismissed, can you imagine a person CHOOSING to be gay? None of the gay people I know chose to be gay. Why would they choose a sexual orientation that would cause so much abuse and hate to be heaped upon them. Why would they choose to embrace a life that could get them despised, insulted, beaten up and even murdered?

Another thought re the Bible: Many of the 7 or 8 "proof texts" in the Bible, which are used to condemn homosexuality can be challenged. Several of them are taken out of context and most of the rest are dubious. However, I will not engage in that debate here, because I suspect your position is intractable and we again would have to agree to disagree. However I believe another frequent Wonder Café poster, "Sighsnootles", has dealt with this topic in great detail. If you go to the thread "What do I Think... Re: Homosexuality" under the "Relationships" category, you will find her comments on the passages from Genesis 19, Leviticus 18 & 20, Romans 1, 1 Corinthians 6, 1 Timothy 6. (See her post of June 28, 10:16 am).

Also John Spong has written many essays on the subject and covers it extensively in his book "The Sins of Scripture"

Once again Jay2000, I assume that we will not agree on much that I have just said, and I assume that both of us probably hold pretty firm positions on the subject of homosexuality. But at least we shared some ideas and some dialogue, and I guess that is what Wonder Café is all about. As long as people keep talking and don't start throwing things at each other, there is hope!

Hi Jay2000
"It is pretty obvious that you an I are poles apart in our views on homosexuality"¦ the best way for us to care for each other is to agree to disagree."
I am not here to convert you to my position, as with my last post I gave more that sufficient Biblical references for the way GOD views homosexuality, I don't feel it is needed to go through that again. Agree to disagree sure, but if you were going to be hit by a bus I would warn you about, your way of rationalizing it is to say "there is no bus, but if there was a bus, it can't possibly hit me"

"It would appear that your condemnation of homosexuality"
I condemn no one, we each condemn ourselves. GOD has laid out that homosexuality is wrong, so I view it that way, would I send some way for being gay, no, but to put homosexuals in the place of pastoral leadership or marrying them goes against everything the Bible teaches on the subject. Of course our worldviews will taint how we look at the Bible and how we view GOD. For the record I view the Lord as merciful, loving, gracious, caring, forgiving, slow to anger, but he is also just, the just judge, will be coming to judge the world of it's sin, mighty, all knowing, all powerful, all in all he is GOD and we are not.
Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

"I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it appears that you consider the Bible to be "The Word of God". I too can accept that the Bible contains "The Word of God""
I won't put words in your mouth either but I will ask"¦ You think that GOD being GOD is not capable of seeing that His word stays protected through the years? When they found the Dead Sea Scrolls at Qumran the differences they came across for the Received Text and the other Texts they had at the time were the difference of Christ Jesus for Jesus Christ or minor spelling error or a line repeated itself. These are as close to the Master Scripts as we have had, said to be within 100AD, this would put them as close to the originals for the New Testament scrolls having them themselves. Many of the Old Testament Scrolls date from before the Septuagint (Greek translation of the OT dates between 200-300BC) this is important because is was the first find of an entire scroll of Isaiah, as the Jewish people were trying to have chapter 53 removed, the idea of a suffering Messiah didn't appeal to them I guess.
What we also must consider, is GOD is not going to speak to Moses the same way he will speak to Paul, or yourself or myself. But the same truths apply.

As an example if wife beating or female circumcision might be socially acceptable in Islam (check http://www.memritv.org/ for video of those in the Mddle East talking about it) that doesn't make it right, even if people in a part of the world are doing something. Truth is not subjective, if it was I'd steal everything you have, and you couldn't say anything to the contrary as this is my truth and who are you to tell me I can't steal from you.

"The Bible was written between about 10 centuries B.C. to the early 2nd century A.D. so it contains many ideas from that period of history that are just plain wrong, based on today's knowledge of chemistry, physics, astronomy, medicine etc. For instance we no longer think that illness of children is caused by the sins of their parents, as is sometimes inferred in the Bible. We no longer consider epileptic seizures as being caused by demon possession, as they did in Jesus' time."
The cannon was closed before the near the end of the first century and before the second century. Moses writings of The Pentateuch (first five books of the Bible) took place before 1500AD.
There is no scientific proof people are born gay, and even if there was all that proves is GOD was right and sin dwells within us from birth, this doesn't give us the excuse to commit an act GOD forbids. (see wife beating) I know people that have cast out demons, were that is true as what people believe I don't know, I will only take their word for what they have said.

"As more and more research has been done they are finding out the historical and scientific truths of the Bible to be just that."
The fact is with every turn of the Archeologists spade, the Bible is proven to be ture time and time again. We can look at the Laws of Thermodynamics or The Law of Non-contradiction, etc, and only prove what GOD has been saying all along, "I'm in control, you are not, I'm GOD, you are not" Simple yes, but it makes the point.
Scientist are finding every year how much more complex they human DNA gnome truly is, scientific examples show examples of how, but cannot show us why. Ie Why were we created, it may show the how, but not the why.

"There is mounting medical, biological evidence that homosexuality is not a choice, but is a genetic or biological predisposition of which the person has very little if any choice. I realize that as soon as I say that, there are people who will find a study that says something else, but the majority of psychological, medical, biological and genetic evidence says otherwise."
There has never, I repeat never been any scientific data that supports that homosexuality is genetic or biological, it may be psychological, but there still hasn't been a shred of evidence to support homosexuality as being anything other than a sexual choice.

"Even if that argument is dismissed, can you imagine a person CHOOSING to be gay? None of the gay people I know chose to be gay. Why would they choose a sexual orientation that would cause so much abuse and hate to be heaped upon them. Why would they choose to embrace a life that could get them despised, insulted, beaten up and even murdered?"
Sin, plain and simply sin, I'm sure a good number of those people were abused, and yes I know that is not all of them. You view on sin will paint your entire view of nearly everything. If you believe we are not born into a sinful nature and we are all basically good, then you might believe that homosexuality is acceptable. The Bible clearly teaches we are sinful from birth (Adam's inherited transgression) and we a separated from GOD because of that transgression and GOD has set up a moral guideline for us to follow, Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve. The why people do things I'm not totally sure, why did Chris Benoit murder his family then hang himself? Why does anyone do anything that GOD says we should not do? I'd have to say, sin.

"Another thought re the Bible: Many of the 7 or 8 "proof texts" in the Bible, which are used to condemn homosexuality can be challenged. Several of them are taken out of context and most of the rest are dubious. However, I will not engage in that debate here, because I suspect your position is intractable and we again would have to agree to disagree. However I believe another frequent Wonder Café poster, "Sighsnootles", has dealt with this topic in great detail. If you go to the thread "What do I Think... Re: Homosexuality" under the "Relationships" category, you will find her comments on the passages from Genesis 19, Leviticus 18 & 20, Romans 1, 1 Corinthians 6, 1 Timothy 6. (See her post of June 28, 10:16 am)."
How many passages do you need? If you just read it, they are very clear. You might have several homosexual friends, great, are you showing them these verses and explaining to them that they need repentance and forgiveness from the Lord or do you tell them this is from a time past and we don't live under those Laws of the Bible anymore? Ask any Jewish Rabbi or practicing Jew what Sodom and Gomorrah in Genesis 19 is about, they will be quite clear, the condemning and destruction of cities that openly practiced homosexuality.

"Also John Spong has written many essays on the subject and covers it extensively in his book "The Sins of Scripture"
I could write a book as well, this proves nothing, what has the Bible said on this issue? It is very clear, just read it!

"Once again Jay2000, I assume that we will not agree on much that I have just said, and I assume that both of us probably hold pretty firm positions on the subject of homosexuality. But at least we shared some ideas and some dialogue, and I guess that is what Wonder Café is all about. As long as people keep talking and don't start throwing things at each other, there is hope!"

I will leave you with this, Jesus hung out with sinners, but he always told them to repent of their sin, and turn to the Lord, he is Holy and pure and cannot look upon sin, that does not mean he doesn't see it means he does will not have it in his presence, through Jesus blood we are washed clean, this is why we can step into his presence and be with him even today. The only thing I will toss at you is a few Bible verses to think about, so here we go. Jesus did speak out against homosexuality on a number of occasions first in Matthew 10:15-16 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. 15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Matthew 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shall be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
Matthew 11:24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

Hi Jay2000
Thank you for taking the time to type your long reply to my post. Also I thank you for being quite civil in your reply. I have encountered many folks whose views on the Bible are similar to yours, who have been quite nasty in responding to folks like me, so I thank you for that.

You are obviously a committed Christian who takes the Bible very seriously. I too consider myself a committed Christian who takes the Bible seriously, but I see it differently in many ways than you do. Can you concede that it might be possible that the Holy Spirit speaks to me as well as to you? And that for whatever reason (our upbringing, our church experiences, our life experiences) we have come to different conclusions and walked a different path of faith, even though we may have both been as honest and sincere with ourselves as we can be?

There is much that we agree on. As you, I worship a God of mercy, love, forgiveness and justice. And as you, I would find wife beating to be wrong. And just for the record, if you told me I was going to be hit by a bus I would jump out of the way first and decide later whether it was a real bus!

But there is apparently much we disagree on, and there is no point in arguing about them because I suspect that we would not change each other's minds.

However, just a few comments on some things you said:
"The cannon was closed before the near the end of the first century and before the second century. Moses writings of The Pentateuch (first five books of the Bible) took place before 1500AD"

Actually, the New Testament canon was a debated for centuries. It probably reached its present form around 367 AD when Athanasius, the bishop of Alexandria, compiled a list of recognized books which agrees with the ones we now have.

I assume your date for the Torah should have read 1500 BC (not AD). Although Moses may have lived in that time period, If Moses wrote entire Pentateuch then he wrote about his own death (which is quite difficult to do)! Most mainline and liberal theologians accept the "Documentary Hypothesis" which asserts that the Pentateuch was written by a group of four authors, from various locations in Palestine, over a period of centuries.

You said:
"The fact is with every turn of the Archeologists spade, the Bible is proven to be true time and time again."

In fact just the opposite is true! Modern science is constantly proving that the two creation stories in Genesis 1 and 2 are false. They are lovely allegorical/metaphorical stories with a message, but they are factually contradicted by science. The astronomers and astrophysicists have verified the multibillion year old origin of the universe by a variety of converging data. The archaeologists, the paleontologists and especially the geneticists have incontrovertible evidence of evolution.

As far as our interpretation of the Bible texts is concerned, we have no common ground there so I will not argue the meaning of the scripture you quoted. I think I said everything I wanted to say in my last post.

Thanks for once again for taking the time to make you position clear and your views known. May the Spirit walk with both of us and help us each to find our own honest path to truth.

May you go in Peace.

iwonder

I have no reason for being hostile to you or anyone else, so unless you wish to stop this dialog on this topic, that is fine.

I would never say that the Holy Spirit speaks or doesn't speak to anyone, we are instructed in 1Thess 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. The greek word for "prove" is dok-im-ad'-zo which means prove, try. examine, discern, etc and 1John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. and Paul commended the Bareans for searching the scriptures (Old Testament) to see if he said was true Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. I will continue to test all things all say, if someone says they are a Christian, that's fine, GOD makes Christians, our feelings and opinions don't. But our views on what GOD has set out to be true needs to be inline with what GOD says and not with what our opinions or feelings are.
I have several believing friends that are in a Pentecostal church and I personal reject their view on Spiritual gifts, but we agree on the essentials of the Christian faith. I have a friend (I'm sure there are more) that are into the emerging church movement, again some thing I disagree with Biblical, but we get along and converse and get along just fine.

I would like to state, I do reject liberal theologians and liberal theology, I guess that was really stating the obvious. Not that I don't read or view their work, they just come from a world view I personally reject due to their non-historical views on Christianity as well as other issues I have.

Yes I meant 1500 BC, not AD and Joshua is commonly believed to be the one to finish off the Book of Deuteronomy. This would be from Moses' Death and the Nation of Israel's move into the the land (Book of Joshua) I personally believe is Moses as the writer of the Pentateuch, as when Jesus quoted the Old Testament he would always use Moses name. The same with Isaiah, there is a belief that out there that there might be as many as three Isaiah's that wrote that book, Jesus used a single usage of Isaiah, and not Isaiah 1-2 and 3. So I'd be more inclined to believe the GOD of the universe that what a bunch of scholars might debate, that's all.

As for the creation, that I will answer with this... Did GOD create it, yes. Could have done it in six days, yes,, Could have GOD done it in six billion years, yes. Could have GOD done it in six nano seconds, yes. To me time is not the factor, GOD created it and could use whatever means he wills. The creation takes up maybe 1% of the whole Bible, redemption takes almost 99% of the remainder. If the creation was that important to GOD he would have spent more time explaining it. The redemption is far more important in that it cost him a whole lot more, he can speak universes into existence (universe-one speech or word) but redemption cost him his Son.

I live in BC (The province not the era) and have made several travels on the #3 this past year, all one has to do is look at the mountains around Hedley and one can see the evidence for the flood, you can see how earth has move and shot out of the ground. The are areas in the Rocky Mountains that have fossilized sea life, Mt. Everest has the same thing. How it was done I really don't know, but I do know that we were nearly flooded in my area with just snow pack melting and little or no rain at the time and yet people still reject a universal flood.
2 Peter 3:3-7 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
This looks very close to what we are living in North America right now.

Hmm was the bus really there? Christian Science? haha

If the cannon was debated until 2007 is not the point either, the writings closed up before the end of the first century.

Maybe check this out.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/

The main problems I have with the evolutionary theory, I'm only guessing you hold to this, is that if the Universe started from a single point of spinning energy and then an explosion (Big Bang) all of the planets and moons would be rotating in the same direction, in our solar system alone we have a numbers planets that spin the opposite way, not around the sun in directionality, but in spinning clockwise or counter clockwise. Number two, for their to have been a six billion year universe as some claim the sun would reach out past the earth for it to have burnt off enough mass to become the size is resides right now.

As for not "arguing" the scripture, why would you not defend your position, I believe the Word of GOD is our final authority on this issue (I speak of the gay issue here) I would love to see your examples on why you see it as Biblically valid. I'm not trying to push, I really want to see someone's Biblical basis for these social issues.

I understand the view I have taken on this is not a popular one, even more so in this forum. But I believe there is a need to stand for what is true and what is right. I have never said a gay person shouldn't be gay, or have I tried to straighten them out. I believe that is the work of the Holy Spirit and that persons willingness and wanting to leave that life style. We are told to repent of sin, not accept it as normal, we are told to flee from sin, not embrace it. I understand we have different world views and that is ok. I hope we will continue to discuss this as we have in an open and rational manner,

The only thing I can add at this time, is I know where my life was without Jesus, and I know what my life is like with Jesus, the changes I have gone through, the removal of booze, sex (with the opposite sex) and other personal bonding agents, I don't want to be in a place in my life where those things rule over me any longer. GOD has done some great things in my life. I will choose to to serve him because he loved me first.

In Christ Jesus

j.

Hi Jay2000
I have enjoyed our exchange of ideas. I know you said you reject liberal theologians and liberal theology, but at least you were polite enough that we were able to talk together, and I really appreciate that (yes I am obviously "liberal" in my theology).

As you may have figured out I am a member of the United Church (Ontario) and my congregation is a very diverse mixture of liberal and conservative folks, so it has been a goal of mine to try to discern what we have in common and to try to build upon that. One thing I have discovered is that although the various members of the congregation have a variety of perspectives on doctrine and belief, we are united in agreement with the great love commandment of Jesus (Love God and Love your neighbour). Some of my conservative friends are the most loving and caring people I know, as are some of my liberal friends. Although we may differ on our understanding of what the Spirit may be saying to each of us, there is no misunderstanding when a need for support or caring must be met. I have many times been supported with Christian love and prayer by my conservative friends, and have reciprocated when their need arises.

I have enjoyed the dialogue, but we do seem to be in an isolated thread where very few other folks are posting, so I would like to get back to the mainstream Wonder Café threads soon. However I can make a few more comments in response to your recent post.

You said:
"I have several believing friends that are in a Pentecostal church and I personal reject their view on Spiritual gifts, but we agree on the essentials of the Christian faith."

I know you are not in the United Church, so I had assumed you were a member of one of the more conservative churches. But apparently it is not a Pentecostal church. You don't have to tell me, but I am curious which church or denomination you attend.

You said:
"As for not "arguing" the scripture, why would you not defend your position, I believe the Word of GOD is our final authority on this issue (I speak of the gay issue here) I would love to see your examples on why you see it as Biblically valid. I'm not trying to push, I really want to see someone's Biblical basis for these social issues."

You may think I am "copping out", but I think that debating scripture between you and I would not be productive. There is so much difference between the liberal and conservative views on interpreting the Bible and how it was written, that I have found the basic premises for the discussion are just too far apart to even know where to start. And as far as the "gay issue" is concerned. I have been a member of Wonder Café for a bit over 2 weeks now, and gay issues it seems to be the number one topic. It has been discussed in thread after thread, with almost every possible liberal and conservative viewpoint stated and restated. And after all of that, the discussion seems to go nowhere and no compromises seem possible. In fact it seems to cause rampant and unloving hostility. And the hostility seems to be on both sides. So with respect, allow me to pass on the biblical analysis.

You said:
"...all one has to do is look at the mountains around Hedley and one can see the evidence for the flood, you can see how earth has move and shot out of the ground. The are areas in the Rocky Mountains that have fossilized sea life, Mt. Everest has the same thing. How it was done I really don't know."

Yes isn't it amazing how mountains are built! I assume you studied elementary geology in your science classes and learned how sediments and sea life were deposited in great seas millions of years ago and eventually through the convergent movement of the continental plates, these fossilized seabeds are forced upwards, and twisted and turned to become the great mountain ranges. I am sure in the area where you live you can see the layers of sedimentary strata folded and twisted in the mountain peaks. Sometimes they are so contorted and folded that the older rocks lie above the younger rocks.

The Himalayas are still being formed as India is ramming into Asia. These mountains are still rising at about 1 centimeter per year.

You said:
"As for the creation, that I will answer with this... Did GOD create it, yes. Could have done it in six days, yes,, Could have GOD done it in six billion years, yes. Could have GOD done it in six nano seconds, yes. "

I have a lot of experience in the study of astronomy and physics, so I can confirm that you are right about the time spans involved in creation. Yes, scientists have lots of converging and mutually corroborating evidence that the expanding universe is about 12 billion years old (give or a billion or so). However some of the action that took place in the first small fraction of a nanosecond or so was astounding. First gravity, became a separate force, then the strong nuclear force separated, then there was a rapid "inflationary period" where the universe expanded by a factor of 10 to the 50th power (i.e. 1 followed by 50 zeros). Then quarks, antiquarks, and electrons formed, then the final two unified forces (electromagnetism and the weak nuclear force) split from one another. This all happened in the first one thousandth of a nanosecond! During the next 3 minutes, atoms of hydrogen and helium formed, before the universe became too cool for any other atoms to form. So the early universe contained mostly hydrogen and helium. As far as the formation of stars, planets and the other elements are concerned, it is a fascinating story but too long to post here.

You said:
"The main problems I have with the evolutionary theory, I'm only guessing you hold to this, is that if the Universe started from a single point of spinning energy and then an explosion (Big Bang) all of the planets and moons would be rotating in the same direction, in our solar system alone we have a numbers planets that spin the opposite way, not around the sun in directionality, but in spinning clockwise or counter clockwise. Number two, for their to have been a six billion year universe as some claim the sun would reach out past the earth for it to have burnt off enough mass to become the size is resides right now."

First of all the universe did not start with "spinning energy" the energy of the early universe was remarkable homogenous. "Spin" was not a factor. There are many reasons for the rotational direction and the orbits of the planets, but spin imparted by the big bang is not one of them. Spin imparted by the formation of the solar system is the most important factor, but there are several other factors as well.

Why haven't we burnt uo? The sun is NOT a first generation star, and is less than half the age of the universe. It is about 5 billion years old and has about 5 billion more to go before it expands to become a "red giant". We have been saved from being "barbecued" by the sun's smaller size. The bigger a star, the faster it "burns" (by thermonuclear fusion of course). There are stars much bigger that the sun. A star 10 times the sun's mass will only last a few million years before it explodes as a supernova.

That's enough science for now. I must go to bed (It's nearly 1 am in Eastern Canada).

Peace to you.

I feel the church can get really off base if they rely on popular opinion to decide moral issues. The Bible is supposed to be our guidebook. Why arene't we using it, and instead wandering around in the wilderness asking, "should we or shouldn't we? Let's all us humans decide and leave God out of it." What does the Bible say about homosexuality? Why don't we talk about that?

"Let's all us humans decide and leave God out of it." What does the Bible say about homosexuality? Why don't we talk about that?"

I guess we have to ask ourselves, is the Bible GOD's word to us, if it is, (as I believe it is), then GOD needs to be included in this discussion if we use the Bible. The Bible is very clear on what homosexuality is, sin. Separation from the Almighty GOD. Yes we all sin 1 Jn 1:8-10 makes it clear we all sin and if we confess our sin he is just and will forgive us of our sin, but if we think for a second we have no sin, we don't have the truth, nor is it in us and we make Jesus out to be a liar. Willful continued sin needs to be cut out of the believers life and not celebrated as a "natural" act. Romans 1:16-32 makes it very clear that the acts of homosexuality and lesbianism as perverse in GOD's eyes and that if people want to do these acts GOD gives their minds over to these perversities for their judgement. We need to remember GOG is still a loving GOD, but a just GOD and he will call for an account for our actions and if our deeds are covered by the sacrifice of Christ Jesus. Jesus yes hung out with sinners, but he always told them to turn from their sins and turn to GOD. Or turning from our sin and turning to GOD is the key.

j.

And to add one thing, who cares what we think or really what or opinion is? As we are mere men and women trying to play GOD when we change what the Word of GOD says, this is a form of Blasphemy.

j.

"The church basily splits apart.On one side you have the rich , properous north saying yes and you have the poor south saying no."

Is it worth the devaluing of human rights just so people aren't upset with you?

Same sex marriage...

We have fallen prey to the disease of our time.  Everywhere we look we see sex.  Sex is on everything and is brought into everything.  Why can't we treat sex as something other than a product - sex is a gift from God.  It's sacred.  In the time and space in which we live, our culture demands that everyone develops a sexual appetite - maybe its not meant to be for everyone.  This might be the case for so many men who are engaged in homosexuality... I personally don't want to be the judge.  I can't relate to homosexuality because I have no urges in that direction.  I think the church should stay out of it - leave it to the government to make those calls and those who want to get married can do it - I think it is between us and God.  The Church is divided in this area - many are solidly against it and others are for it - I don't think we have to be involved in it.  As individuals seek God, they will find Him and He will point them in the direction they need to go - He knows - lets leave it to Him.

In response to Jay2000

No wonder people are staying away from churches and religion with this hateful language. Why is it that many believers are obsessed with the sexual relations of others? To live your life based on dogma from the dark ages is quite sad. Stop worrying and enjoy your life!

I must disagree with many on their views of division within the Angliucan church over the decision. If anything, it has done more to bring the church back in a unified line. I am an Anglican. I have no problem with same sex marriage, but that is my personal view. However, one could almost hear the massive sigh of relief after the decision. It had quieted and unified things. One can not fault the church for that. Neither can the church bend their core beliefs to suit the various turns and events that happen as time moves on. This would do more to turn people away than anything else and that is what was happening previous to the decision. The decision does not preclude acceptance of same sex couples being full members of the church, just the actual marriage. This too does not prevent a priest from performing a same sex marriage, just having the church sanction it. Even the Federal laws will not fault the churches from taking this stance.

I would have less respect for any church that bent their rules and beliefs just to gain and maintain membership. Strength and consistantance of direction and guidance are respected. Going with the flow is not.

This is about justice.

It isn't about someone bending with the wind.

It is about the underlying message of Jesus and who he stood with and what he fought for.