Well, I can only speak on a personal level, but I've never talked to anyone who I was discussing Theology with who said "The United Church sounds kinda stupid" they've generally been pleasently surprised by the fact that such a church exists... that being said, I also find that the kids who don't think it's all that great are generally in the UCC from birth and don't see it as anything but 'church'.

Well... my dad talks badly about the UCC but he's arrogantly Catholic (No practising... and he kids, he kids!) so that doesn't count ;)

This is a loaded question that is sure to come under fire. The answer can go either way since it would depend on the people that are joining the church and how strong their views or beliefs are toward faith and the local people from the community.

There are good people out there who practise what they preach, in essence they are generally kind, helpful, generous, down to earth and very involved with the community.

But there are also the other "folk" who put up a false front towards the people in church, especially on a Sunday. They want us to believe that they are a good person when in fact they behave the opposite way for the rest of the week. Those particular people simply don't care how they treat the publilc, their family, or their co-workers as long as the "church" believes that they are in good standing with their spiritual leader.

Essentially, these type of people that attend the church, praising "God" and slapping other worshippers on their back for doing a good job, often turn around the next day and throw all kinds of crap towards everyone else. They dare to stand in church, lie through their teeth, and claim that they are honest, say they follow the path of goodness, believe that they treat others with kindness and respect when in actual fact they are dishonest, mean, and deeply disrespectful. It is those type of people who attend church and spread disharmony towards everyone else in the community, that forces others to turn away from church.

It's nothing but a false front for the political figures in our community to put them higher up on the pedestal for election day. That type of behaviour is disgusting and it happens in every church in every community. It's nothing but a powerplay for them and that is something we don't need in our daily lives.

However, for the immigrants, if they strongly believe in faith and need spritiual guidance, they are more than welcome to join the church as long as they don't force us to believe or study in their particular way of spiritualism.

Faith is a private belief to help individuals sort through their problems, find inner strength when they need it, and help them grow to become a better person.

A particular belief should not be forced upon us, especially by immigrants who are on our land and who should be respecting our laws. We should not be told to see situations in a particular light, we should not be forced to believe the Bible, the Koran, or a specific written document.

Times have changed, our lives have changed, our beliefs are very different now than they were 100 or 500 or 1000 years ago. The "original" spiritual documents such as the Bible were written for a very specific era in time. They don't work in this era, it doesn't fit in with our ideals now, many of the suggestions or guidelines in the documents are inappropriate, cruel, and deeply offensive today.

If you ever wonder why there are not enough young people in church today, take a really close look at the people in church now. Are those people in church setting good examples in the community? Do they practise what they preach? Are they honest, respectful, and kind to those of us in the community?

In my past experience with the church, the answer to those questions is simply NO.

Ask yourself this: Why do people come to a church?

They do not come because you have a beautiful building, adequate parking, Sunday worship services, Sunday School, choir practices and Bible studies. These are the commodities that every pastoral charge and parish handles.

They come because a church meets their emotional needs for hope, comfort and a sense of community. That sought-after sense of community is what sociologists call "˜Gemeinschaft': small, informal, face to face knowing of persons as whole persons.

Congregations that consistently meet these three needs - hope, comfort, and community - are thriving and growing. Those that can not or will not recognize and ably serve these three needs are failing and dying.

The congregations who best meet the needs for hope, comfort and community are those who put a personal relationship with Jesus Christ first and foremost in their mission and outreach. People who have a deep personal relationship with Christ through prayer will develop a passion for helping others, and from the depths of that passion springs effective social action.

We go out to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, heal the sick, comfort the dying, not because it's "the right thing to do" (which is what "˜social action first' tells us), but because Christ is the centre of our lives. We see His face in every face around us and we can do nothing else but serve Him.

The more we can do this is, the more we will connect with our growing populations.

Certainly, I think that UCC is in a position to offer something to anyone who is spiritually searching for 'answers'.
Our UCC replies are not written, defined and available for printing.
They are evolving (and will continue to do so) in the minds of liberal minded people who see Jesus Christ's example as a pattern of living for 2007.
Obviously the scenery and details have changed in 2000 years - but the principles of inclusivity, love without condition, facing daily life's questions are best answered by learned, everyday people - not by a group that follows the literal rules of a pope or a council of cardinals.
......... and 'we' - the UCC - can grow in understanding in the process . gg

I was speaking with a minster within the United Church and he made a statement to my wife and I that has stuck with me:

"I wish the United Church was more like the Catholic Church."

He meant it in the way that the Catholic Church has marriage courses and they have guidelines for marriage. It will always stick with me and it came out of the blue.

FYI, our UC does do individual marriage prep and requires that couples getting married in the church do take a marriage prep course as well (offered by an outside agency). We refer them to courses that fit our theology.

The United Church of Canada
note that it is The United Church of Canada
formed in 1925 by Methodists, Congregationalist and about 1/2 of Presbyterians. The Act of Union contains the basis of the new church and tells clearly what it believes and what it stands for.
In 1968 it adopted A NEW CREED

We are not alone,
we live in God's world.
We believe in God:
who has created and is creating,
who has come in Jesus,
the Word made flesh,
to reconcile and make new,
who works in us and others
by the Spirit.

We trust in God.

We are called to be the Church;
to celebrate God's presence,
to live with respect in Creation,
to love and serve others,
to seek justice and resist evil,
to proclaim Jesus, crucified and risen,
our judge and our hope.
In life, in death, in life beyond death,
God is with us,
We are not alone.

Thanks be to God.

If that fits your thoughts of Spirituality you've found a home. Bless you

Around the big cities the new immigrants are everywhere. The previous locals, the Anglos are aging, and fewer and fewer in numbers. The other majority locals, the RC Italian population has already become rich and also moved away furthur out to bigger homes.

There are new mosque springing up everywhere and little christian churches, mainly ethnic, along the industrial strips. In public school pictures white faces are few.

So imagine yourself here and wonder where and how can we find persons who could be attracted to the local United Church? Its a tough row to hoe.

I agree with Banquo's comments.

In my community churches that are growing have a strong focus on Jesus. My own church (UCC) is being pushed by progressive Christians and is sadly in a sorry state of decline because of it. Neighbouring churches (community churches mostly) are at the same time bursting at the seams with young people and young familes. Two local community churches have even had to sell their buildigns and move to much larger locations because of their radical growth! The difference: those churches focus on the risen Christ and the hope, joy and good news he brings to people. As well, service to others, small groups and great music helps with growth. I think there is hope for the UCC but only if Christ is the centre. This is sadly lacking in some United Churches, mine included. But there is always hope. Especially when God's in on it.

You sound a little bitter,some of the folks you talk of stand out in a crowd.Remember

THAY KNOW WE ARE ____________ BYE OUR LOVE

Our Lord was beaten and put to death on the cross,had nails put in his hands and feet and hung there for all to see.
FOR WHAT
So I can fall no my kness and ask him for forgiveness and if I mean it ,I am forgiven
THANKYOU

Banquo and StudyingHarder. I agree. Most people, especially time-presseured families these days are too busy to come out to churches that don't offer them the hope of Jesus. Most don't have the time or inclination to come out for church unless it offers them something that touches their hearts deeply: Jesus. I read with great interest in the UCC Observer about the amazing growth of "Willow Creek" in the US. Same thing with "NorthPoint" church and others.

The key piece for success in reaching most people (new immigrants and any one) to preach Jesus and His eternal word in ways that are meaningful to the modern generation (so the message stays the same, but is delivered using modern tools such as PowerPoint, YouTube, Dramas, videos, podcasts, etc.). In my city, this is definately true too. The growing churches stay close to the Lord and deliver his message boldly to the new generation. Lots and lots of young families attend those churches. In fact, one of these local churches had 300 KIDS for vacation bible school last year (and I live in only a mid-sized city). And their youth group regularly gets 90 kids out mid week. That blew me away.

If we stick with our divine Jesus at the UCC we will be fine. Not so sure what will happen if we don't. I'm hopeful though! We're trying! God is amazing.

Cheryl

I agree that we need to teach the message of Jesus, but be very careful what that is. Jesus did not teach what many of the more conservative churchs say. He taught equality and justice and love. He taught that it is right to treat everyone with honour and respect and that it was wrong to lie, cheat, blaspheme God's word and focus on the comfortable structures of the Law rather than fight for what is right. This is what the UCC has tried to do with its focus on reconciliation with Native peoples for our sins with residential schools, our statements about Gay Marriage, women in the Ministry etc. If those statements are seen by some to be anti-Jesus then so be it. I for one would rather worship with a smaller group of people who I believe are following in the Spirit's path than with a large group whose views I cannot sanction. My greatest fear is that the UCC in its attempts to put bums in the pews are willing to sacrifice our beliefs (and those of Jesus) for money in our coffers and the apperance of success. Elis

New people drift in and out of church but rarely stay. They do the photo shoot of the baptism but won't commit to the sunday school classes.

On a freek coincidence there was a house social that was held when we were church shopping in which they invited couples without kids to come have a coffee. It was the only one they ever did that I know of but out of that a group of people started and stuck with the congregation. That was 16 years ago.

The core group is 60+ and passing away. While we coexist with different generations all of the social things are done within the peer groups. Groups of a dozen or so that get along and formed a community within the larger congregation.

Question I think is how to attract a community or peer group. Offer that group a critical mass of experiences that allow them to get to know each other.

If we look at some other trends,

We live in a Neighbourhood but really don't know anyone very well. We don't socialize with anyone in the neighbourhood except that our kids to play sometimes.

We all run our kids to after school events so much that the kids don't have idle time to properly cultivate these neighbourhood friendships

So the church has filled a void and it is interesting to note that the closest relations are from people who are from out of town like us.

Question does it follow that you will have a easier time building a congregation if you cater to immegrant populations?

Interesting to note that welcome wagon has fallen apart in our town... should we create a welcome wagon function and try to cultivate this phenominum

mccubbin,

You have touched on a few essential elements that local congregations need to address if they are to serve their community at large and, in the process, grow and develop.

Good church programs, in and of themselves, will not attract people. People attract people. Intentionally fostering small relational groups with common origins, backgrounds, or interests is a way of helping people connect with the church, be effectively helped in their day to day lives, and be brought closer to Christ in the process.

I have been working with members of three local congregations from three different denominations who are all seeking ways to reconnect with our community-at-large, which has been growing while these three congregations have been shrinking.

We have been discussing Kennon Callahan's books, starting with "Twelve Keys to an Effective Church". First published in the 1980's, its recommendations are still valid. This book focuses on the key strategic areas that any congregation needs to address if it is to survive, grow and develop.

Your question about fostering a "welcome wagon" goes directly to one of the 12 key elements that Callahan has identified. Strong, healthy and effective congregations have well-run pastoral and lay visitation programs. They regularly visit newcomers to the community and the unchurched, as well as their members and adherents. It's a tried and true way to continuously foster the kind of person-to-person connections that will bring people into your church.

If yours is one of those congregations seeking ways to move forward from survival to service and growth in your community, Callahan's books are an excellent resource. If nothing else, they provide a good framework from which to launch discussion.

- Banquo

After a few weeks of listening (reading) at Wondercafe I am joining the discussion for the first time. I chose this topic because it is very important to me and I HOPE the answer is yes. Last night on CBC Ideas the speaker, said "HOPE IS THE OXYGEN OF THE HUMAN SPIRIT". I think that is a wonderful definition.
I see there is such variety in our congregations - and that seems to be both a strength and a weakness. It is a strength if individuals and families can find a church 'family' that feels right for them.
Thanks to Fairway for posting our Creed. I agree it sums things up well.

I am the son of immigrants . I find most churches do not do a reasonable job for people
Like me .

I do not find people similar too me their ( that is one parent form a non
European nation and the other from Canada ) . There are many immigrant in Canada
But at church it seem too be like a time warp . mostly old white European Canadian
The broad cross section of Canada is not represented

This is the Canada of the past . Not the future . many Canadian are not white
Are not from a European culture . while I still go to church there is not much fellow ship
For me their with people I have nothing in common with . I am from a Canadian culture
Different than theirs . I just see a dying church but I go their too worship god fellowship
Is secondary

I feel that if the church would concentrate on feeding the hungry in Canada
Helping people find shelter .( mission ) it would attract a broad cross section of Canada

instead of so much navel gazing . About interpretation of the bible . their will all way be thing that are hard too Interpret .

If the church would give non religious people a way too help their fellow Canadian
With basic physical needs . they would get people interested in the church
And get too know god . Most people would help their fellow man but they can
Not find a structure that will do that .the united church could be that structure

Helping people because they are people not because they are Christian
And telling them of god . when they ask about the joy they see in other
Religious people

It needed too take a more public stance on social issue