Isn't it just at 11:00?

until i saw the first 20 minutes of 'saving private ryan', it was kinda 'meeh.'

once i saw that, though, it changed me forever. i can't even think about remembrance day without getting a tear in my eye.

You are correct...Admin.

Admin, can you change the topic..or all of us, who voted "yes".well...lol, we probably are incorrect.

Sorry, 11:00 is indeed the proper time of observing a minute of silence. Thanks for the correction!

Admin

So, now we have that past us...yes...on Sunday at 11am I will be in church, and thoroughly expect that we will spend a moment of silence..preceeded by trumpet.

I won't be, because 11 precisely is just as my second service starts. I will be observing the moment of silence twice, but neither time will be 11.

I honestly don't think the actual time is of such overpowering importance. Heck, the local cenotaph services is at 1:30. If the Legion doesn't mind, I don't see why anyone else should.

I will be there but reluctantly. I am deeply saddened by the loss of life and limb to war however, I find it very difficult not to feel as though Remembrance Day ceremonies (and poppies) for all their solemnity, romanticize war. I have a hard time explaining this and I have attended many.

Until those who quote the slogan "Never Again" really mean it and stop promoting justification for war, I will remain in my reluctance. I honour those who, in good faith, lost their lives, their health, their families and their futures but refuse to honour those who promote the propaganda of war.

I always try to attend the ceremony at the cenotaph. If I watch the ceremony at the cenotaph in Ottawa, tears always come when the "Silver Star Mother", who symbolizes all mothers whose sons were lost, lays her wreath.

Here is a poem I wrote which I think reinforces what motherofive said in her post. I also posted a slightly earlier version in Popular Culture under Poppies & Remembrance Day ...

Even before the bones and flesh of all 200,000 dead
Had been macerated in the mud
By the guns around Arras,
Going over the top
Had forever become
A matter of resignation
And not of heroism.

What and why should our Remembrance be?
That we know when to fight and do it bravely?
Or should our Remembrance be
Of how time and time again we lost our resolve
That "never again" would we fight in war
And once more foolishly resigned to take up arms?

WEll since I am the LEgion Padre and will be at the Legion to preach and pray...

We in fact moved our regular worship from morning to eening to encourage folks to attend the LEgion service (although the fact that as padre I needed to be there may have influenced that decision)

i am writing on my nanny's name. i will be in sunday school and my class will be. because it is importent to learn to stand and be silent.

Observing that moment of silence is extremely important to me.
It's apalling the disrespect that people (especially around my age) show on Remembrance Day. These people gave their lives and are putting their lives in danger every day to ensure freedom and fundamental rights. The least we can do is observe a moment of silence showing our respect and appreciation for these brave and selfless people.

But is it so essential that the moment be at 11 o'clock? Is it less respectful to have that moment at 10, or 11:30?

RevMatt, it is good to all stop at the sametime, as then one is not interrupted by the sound from buses, cars going by, people in the next office working.

in a church setting if it is more logical to do it at 10:30 & then again at 11:30, then of course, do it.

What is interesting,is that, when working, people don't recognize it, when in other countries, or timezones, an so....it is getting harder to not hear phones ringing etc,

MissJayne, I agree that we are putting people in danger but disagree that it's about our freedom and rights. Here's another perspective on the current war in Afghanistan:

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=49&ItemID=14127

Once again I have to agree with the perspective from MotherofFive. I will reluctantly be observing this moment of silence, this year in our Church. I will be at the organ/piano and we will sing O Canada. During this silence I will think on the absolute wasted lives of young men and women who decided to join the military and "do their duty" to a Country who used to have a philosophy of "peacekeeping" but now think that we must become killing machines.

We have a new addition to our hymnbook in the United Church called "More Voices United". In this book, on page 78, is a wonderful lament called "God Weeps". Just a sample of a verse:

"God weeps at love withheld, at strength misused,
at children's innocence abused,
and till we change the way we love,
God weeps."

As Christians, we must accept the commandment of Christ, "love thine enemy -do good to those who abuse you" (my version) or we cannot call ourselves Christians. Canada is at war. Why? We have not been attacked. If our military are to participate in this war at all, the peacekeeping role must be paramount. The reality is that we would be killed off and kidnapped like the Korean hostages. There is no role for us in Afghanistan until they request us to keep the peace.

so, until they 'requst us to keep the peace', we should just do what??

sit here, in our comfy church, and feel smug thinking that we'll DEFINETLY do something, BUT ONLY when the timing is JUST RIGHT?!?!?

--- origionally posted by mo5 ---

sigh, there are lots of other ways to figure out how to help Afghanistan but none, but the war solution, have even been attempted.
________________

hey, i'm for whatever helps.

its the idea that we should just WAIT that ticks me off. sitting and doing nothing is simply helps the oppressed, never the oppressor.

sigh, there are lots of other ways to figure out how to help Afghanistan but none, but the war solution, have even been attempted.

Here's a fairly comprehensive document on "why a military mission will not bring peace to Afghanistan called "Bring The Troops Home Now". I think it raises a lot of valuable points and contains information that I had never seen before:

http://www.acp-cpa.ca/en/BringTheTroopsHomeNow.pdf

I just returned from the most moving remembrance day service, I have ever attended.

of course, the service was well put together, our ministers message was strong, the particiption of different generations and a dynamic choir & guest trumpeteer, all of which allowed me to take part and have time to dwell...

yet, i know with worship, what we bring to it, is our own state of mind.

Maybe, it was because I recognize more sothe choices we face regarding confict zones. When to intercede, when not to. I refect back on the decisions that canadian politicians and people have made in so many conflicts...do we or don't we, and the lives lost either way.

Maybe, it as as I am reading John Le Carre's Mission Song, regarding Africa.

or, due to listening to romeo dallaire, or reading "shake hands with the devil", or through my brother's analysis of that situation, as is a retired air force pilot.

or, watching the young men's faces of those who have lost their lives, on Hockey Night in Canada..and having my 18 year old son in the same room, and knowing his thoughts and some of the dreams they share.

Something said during the prayer time this morning struck me quite strongly, although I've heard it many times before:

"...when politicians fail..."

That's really what war is, failure to find other solutions. I would say that failure is an even more appropriate word when other solutions aren't even attempted.

war is a failure of humanity, not just politicians.

That's absolutely true, sigh, but I feel that we do elect politicians to provide leadership around issues such as foreign policy. Regarding Afghanistan, we've hitched our wagon to a government that has other agendas and that is a failure of politicians in leadership here. It's particularly so when the majority of Canadians are opposed to our role internationally having been changed from peace-keeper to active combat in support of our southern neighbours.

Curious, if you had been in Rwanda, or other areas of genocide, at what point would you stop talking, and go in and stop the killing.

If by stopping the killing, would you restrict people to just stand by and not shoot, meaning that those who know the rules, know you won't shoot, and so, can do what they want?

I dont' buy the notion that politicians alone stop wars, or stop one group from killing another.

If all politicians based their decisions on the same basic principles, or if all peoples did, then maybe.

reality is that power, money & greed, combined with emotion drive many actions.

"Curious, if you had been in Rwanda, or other areas of genocide, at what point would you stop talking, and go in and stop the killing."

I'm curious about when talking ever started in situations like this.

it's interesting, mo5, i guess, there is a question, can we turn back the hands of time...or, do we start now. what do we do in areas where for a generation or more the power has been held by those who are willing to kill.

ps...i am not a historian, nor educated in the study of war, but, i look even in our own conversations, in our dialogues in workplaces, and cities and wonder, when is the time to say something, to stand together with others, and, when does it become time to take up arms.

my sense is that in rwanda, the decision to take up arms was delayed substantially by those who were calling the shots from afar. My brother said that to many in the forces, the rwandan episode is blackspot on the canadian forces, for the delay in going in to, if nothing else, save the nato forces captured. No matter what the people from afar state, it is the ones on the ground, who know, when it is time to take up arms, or so, he has expressed to me.

anyhow...again, i guess..i wish we were in a place that i could say, there is no need to take up arms, to go fight, not just make peace...yet, i am no longer so sure of that decision.

Pinga, I can appreciate your perspective and held it for many years. That's changed, though, through my own experience in the military and my spiritual journey. The view I now hold is that any belief that there is a time to take up arms will inevitably lead to it. If it is always in the background (and we build toward it), what motivates us to find other solutions?

Here's an interesting excerpt that address restorative justice as one mechanism for addressing violence -- I find the middle paragraph to be of particular interest given my respect for Walter Wink.

"In as much as it [restorative justice] works towards the restoration of dignity of those affected, it is an essential part of the modern peace movement. Creating
international peace built on justice among nations is a priority for all
people of good will. But building domestic peace has not had the same high
profile. Yet it is of equal importance. Many would argue that without one
you cannot have the other. Conflict resolution at a domestic level
(Gacaca) surely is the proper platform from which to build peace
nationally.

As the theologian Walter Wink points out, the myth of redemptive violence
has been the choice of every major social grouping of the 20th century be
it socialist, Marxist, capitalist or communist. This concept enshrines the
belief that violence saves, that war brings peace and that might makes
right. Nations have made redemptive violence the acceptable way of
resolving injustice. Internationally, if nations have had a grievance it
has been resolved either by the threat or use of violence. Most of the
destruction, mayhem and death were justified as being right and just. Only
violence would correct (redeem) the injustice.

The results of this redemptive violence have been horrendous. We have just
emerged from the most bloodthirsty century in history, with hundreds of
millions of innocent people killed in its name."

From: http://deathpenaltyinformation.blogspot.com/2006/12/rwanda-substitute-de...

A quote I saw somewhere said, "If you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you always got." It would seem to me it's time to change our approach to conflict on the basis of both the Golden Rule and self-preservation. Othewise, the tornado of violence that results will destroy everything and everybody in its path.

mof5, and it is why, remembrance day for me, is a time of reflection.
who are faced with the challenge of these decisions, and who struggle in the fight, while others struggle with the challenge of the decisions.

if i was a person in rwanda, i do not think i would appreciate those who stood by & watched my family be slaughtered.
if i was a woman in el salvador, i don't think i would appreciate the armed forces that trained those who slaughtered my family.

so...i spend time at remembrance day..to have such dialogues, and i try not to be dismayed, that we may never figure this out.

I spend time, too, thinking about these things -- the problems and their answers seem so complex, especially when we're talking about changing people's long-held beliefs as well as countering the propaganda and lies that we've been told.

"if i was a person in rwanda, i do not think i would appreciate those who stood by & watched my family be slaughtered.
if i was a woman in el salvador, i don't think i would appreciate the armed forces that trained those who slaughtered my family."

I couldn't agree with you more on this, however, long before such actions happen, events are set in place that lead to these acts of violence. Our neighbour to the south, with which we're now allied in war, has played a huge role in helping to set that stage (inside the UN and at the School of the Americas, as it was formerly known, in Fort Benning, Georgia, - http://www.soaw.org/ - where Central American armed forces personnel were trained to terrorize their own people).

This is where it matters deeply that all of us be informed as to what our governments are doing in our names and with respect to all of our politicians being held accountable, at the ballot box and otherwise, for their actions when it comes to both domestic and foreign affairs. Support for our troops demands that the mission be reflective of who we (as Canadians) are and what we stand for, and not allowing our men and women of the CF being sent into action for anything less.

agreed mo5, re the training.
it is why i picked rwanda & elsalvador. in each case, their were multiple parties involved, and innocents died.

regardess of our wishes for parties coming to differing ways of approaching things, the reality is that there are those who do NOT use other ways, but use violence, guns, slaughter to do their damage.

so...in that case, when standing beside someone who is being killed, what do you do? Talk t them and tell them it is wrong? Talk to their politicians and tell them it is wrong?

i am sorry, i get that we need to do long term work, but, just to understand, are you saying there is no time when an armed force should physically be present and engage, to be blunt, shoot to kill.