Religion can be either, spirituality with its wings clipped or spirituality with added wings.

When religion is literalized mythology or absolutely true doctrine or dogma, then it is spirituality with its wings clipped.

When religion is postmodern or post postmodern interpretation of spirituality, that does not deny but confirm traditional mythologies and doctrines if taken metaphorically, and embraces scientific findings and is scientifically possible or plausible, then religion can add feathers to the learned's wings, as Shapkespeare contends:

Thine eyes, that taught the dumb on high to sing,

And heavy ignorance aloft to fly,

Have added feathers to the learned's wings,

And given grace a double majesty.

-from SONNET LXXVIII by W. Shakespeare

its a principle! All christians attend a place of worship, come together to edify the body of christ and to learn and grow. Break the principle and youll slip backward, guaranteed, so my real answer would be... yes but only for a short while.

Interesting thoughts John.  Do you mean that those who no longer attend church but do practise the Golden Rule have completed that process of learning and growing?  Or maybe you mean that those who attend church are still trying to figure out how to apply the Golden Rule?

My life experience indicates that there are more good people outside churches than in.

Spirituality is the wings. Religion is the bird. Without spirituality, the bird never rises. Without the context of religion, those wings alone have nothing to lift, and nowhere to go.  Spirituality, when limited to an individual, is shallow. The basis of a deeper spirituality is that all people and all things are connected. And that requires sharing the Spirit with others as part of one's spiritual practice.  The goal of religion is to connect, however imperfectly it may do so.

Are churches supposed to be a refuge exclusively for "good" people? I don't think so. Are hospitals only reserved for healthy people?  If everyone was "good", never faced discouragement or disaster, never needed to be connected with others as part of a community, never questioned where life was taking them, then perhaps there would be no role for churches. That's not the case, though. But how well churches succeed in these roles (and many others) is often limited by the very frailties of those who together form "the church" and who gather together to find spiritual support.  If your purpose for going to church is to be in the company of  "good" people, you're going for the wrong reason.

I agree with spiritbear to me it is important to have a community of faith to interact with as well as having your own personal space outside of community I think they go hand in hand.

 I have never been so spiritual and close to God as when I stopped going to church. No offense to anyone.... but I am no longer clouded by others' judgements of me, the social aspect of a church, etc. Now it's just me and Him, and I am so much more at peace.

Of course you can be spiritual without going to Church. Frankly I think the world would be a much better place without a lot of Churches out there. Like any instution, throughout history it has been corrupted and abused. That's not to say that Churches are wrong or useless in general though. I think it would be very hard to understand or mature spiritually outisde of a community such as a church.

I think the poll is trying to cater more to Christian beliefs. If I were a Muslim, I might vote no as going to a Church may hinder one's spirituality. I think the question would be better if it said something more along the lines of, "Do you think you can be spiritual outside of a community?" or, "Is it possible to mature spiritually without outside influence?"

Church for me is the vehichle to a truely spiritual life. It doesn't contain all of spirituality, but it can help you get there. Without a spiritual community to support you in your spiritual quest (whether it's church or mosque or temple or whatever) I think it's easier to go wrong and get mixed up. That said, there may still be a time when church hinders your spiritual growth and you need to move on to become fully mature.

In the little ditty about here's the church and here's the people ... where are the paradigm of the peoples ... outside the Wahl of hard rule ... cast in stone?

Then there is the image of Jerico, ephemeral prostitution within the walls and a crowd outside circling the situation in light ... a Christ effect? Now some people think they have God in a box. Can the infinite be contained, or is that just a devil in a box when someone tries to oppress ID/IT both sides of the empirical? That sounds like Pandora's Box ... whereas someone let all the animals out. What are anima compared to animus, a creature to meditate up on? Perhaps we could learn something with it's pas Zion!

Does the infinite have a sense of humour regarding Eris of renude thoughts ... Eros? In the middle of nothing, first there has to be motivation! Sum just don't get it on this side ... then there is a remnant that experiences just a caress. Is that enough to initiate a vast story ... bigger than a mortal can imagine? I don't know but there seems to be a glimmer in there! In ancient Heb that's spiritual gold ... shimmering soul ... Zhi Kell, or a given Talent ... bo-nomial theo Rime?

Infinite induction (transcended thought), there will be a sign ... a wee smear in high's Tory? Can a mortal change or confine the infinite? IT's the Maqon of a vast tale ... devil down in Geo Gia .... dis har-mony (funny currency)! That's now without the concept of past and future with the bottle of time ... spacey mind? Os ode, odd ... like f'nny God in space? Alien to a mortal!

Most people can learn to swim on their own, but almost everyone is a better swimmer when given effective instruction.  Religions and churches that help people develop spiritual practices and insights give lift to spiritual wings.  Religions and churches that try to monopolize the relationships of their members clip wings.

Jim

I'm looking at this from the perspective of my religion and not Christianity because i can't speak for Christians. But because of where where i live there isn't a Buddhist temple that i can go to. This makes things hard because there is no body that i can go to for advice concerning religouse matters or where i can meditate in peace and quiet but I am still a spiritual person (turned a part of my room into a make-shift temple hehe) so i think that you can be a spiritual person without going to church. That being said i also think that if you have a church nearby that you can go to it couldn't hurt to go once in a while at least^_^. Also there's a church nearby that when things are too noisy here at my house i walk to and can have some nice quiet time to think/meditate (there's always somebody there to let me in ^_^) wich is nice.

well that's just my 2cents and a long rambling wall of text ~_^

peace

I think that having a community in which to share your faith is important, but not essential. For my part, I have many spiritual moments outside church and certainly was still a spiritual person during the unchurched periods of my lif. However, I also find that part of realizing the meaning of those moments is the sharing of them inside church. As others have suggested, for this to work requires a certain kind of church that is supportive of individual experience rather than trying to shoehorn individuals into a prescribed experience. I've found that (or something close to it) in UU'ism, but my time on WC suggests in can be in the UCCan as well. You may have to look around.

Mendalla

      We as humans, are animals, classified as Homo Sapiens.  We are not spiritual animals, we are natural animals.  There are no spirits, in which we can be spiritual about.

     What I do know, is that we live in a natural world, found within a natural universe, completely devoid of the supernatural.

     Supernaturalism and spirtualism, is nothing more than wishful thinking.

You are assuming that "spiritual" = "belief in supernatual spirits", whereas for many of us here, "spiritual" = "belief in finding a deep connection to each other and the Universe".

Mendalla

arecoveringcatholic ...

Is a thought or emotion travelling with us .. physically tangible or just an elite storm on the shadow we call mind? A pool to ponder ... stir with a long stick? Ides like Moses or Roosevelt thingy! Such device helps one from falling into holes, voids or quick san ... the "without" as a myth. Did you ever see the old movie: Sand Pebbles with Steve McQueen ... it's a rub or a ruse that will polish the innards ... per/pure enigma denied by m'n .... Rumi ditty!

Hi arecoveringcatholic:

Yes. We, Homo sapiens spapiens, are natural animals. But that does not mean that we are not spiritual.

"Spiritual" need not necessarily be defined as "supernatural." For many of us here on wondercafe, spiritual is natural.

I, personally, define "spirit" as "energy." Not some airy-fairy energy, but the energy which science denotes with a capital "E." The energy which, according to science, can neither be created nor destroyed.

Well, if IT cannot be created, then it must be the Creator. And if IT cannot be destroyed, then IT must be forever.

Spiritual enough for me.

Yes you can be spriitual and not go to church - All of us are spiritual in degress - But those who are truly matruring SPIRITUALLY go to CHURCH (Gather together for Fellowship, Worship, Prayer, Teaching, Encouraging one another)

Some GO to be affected and some go to EFFECT change in the ATMOSPHERE so OTHERS can get up Higher/Grow in ther spiritual understanding/walk. We all Sow, Water and Reap - the spiritual sluggard due to fear therfore does nothing and reaps nothing to their own shagrin.

Those who stay away from spiritual gatherings(church) effect not only themselves/others negatively - THEY also miss out on being affected in benificial ways and affecting others with the BRAND/FLAVOR of LOVE that only they can give.

To recieve Ministry WE MUST come together to meet with the ONE with the GIFT to deliver you or set you free - encourage you - help you. They are there waiting to use their gift on your behalf. This is the paramount purpose of gathering together - a body with peices scattered all over can do nothing constructive and how can 1 peice of the body say to another - I HAVE NO USE FOR YOU.

PS - Those who are spiritually in darkness are AFRAID to COME INTO the LIGHT as was said so long ago. May men everywhere PRAY that people everywhere would REPENT and come into the LIGHT.

S T. Bennett

I know I'm being a bit harsh, but i've always found most organized religion to be a mochary of spirituality. For me it boils down to the fact that a fair share of people who are, say, catholic, for example, do all this stuff -- the good deeds in particular -- in the fear of going to hell or the hope of getting into heaven; not because it's the right/good/just thing to do. I've also always found it rediculous how most religious people think of and treat athiests, but that's another discussion.

You are not far from the truth ... but do we need to hear all sides of the story before we even begin to understand the infinite portion ... what some call God unknowingly?

Is there need to be a thorn when telling the story? You end up with a character like the pall of Rome ... there is a spark in dem deire aches and smokes ... but the sensitive really have to work to get by the Phoe Nicks ... sacred holder of the secrets ... as's a cat in the bag, sock, sac, BOX. The labrynith will be revealed in dew time ... well whetted ... baptised?

Then there are some that don't want you to say, hear, see nothing ... like simian beasts. Who are they? Look around you, it is called a dumb environmnet ... space of Gods ... the twin is buried in nether space! Myth ... beyond? Its a luciferous gem .. a pearl of great reflection unseen by mortal except as a symbol of a great moan/moon'n as sighing Liz ... that's light! Multiple images in the rip-les; morphing like a worm'n the pool.

 Spirituality or Spiritual, to me, means "with or acknowledging Spirit", and it is used by all who believe they have Spirit in them or acknowledge a Spiritual realm. So, they dont have to subscribe to any form of organized religion to be spiritual. Some of us (all organized religions, Hindu, Wiccan, etc.) will join a group of like-minded individuals in a "Church" to learn more or deepen their relationship with others and with Spirit. To me, its about some people finding a need to re-connect (re-ligio) to spirit with the help of others. Church is a title of this place of like-minded community so I think we get hung up on the image of a spire, cross at the top and those pretty little stained-glass windows. It is much more than that.

Amen to that ... and if we would learn and reverence Love would we need wars to curtail the uncontrolled growth of the physical medium? Perhaps that was what the devilish mind was for ... to devise ways of cultivating the eclectic field!

When people say 'religion' they usually mean 'church'. As someone who was forced to go to church as a child, was free after age 12 or so and then found a church community in my 30's, my experience has been that if, and its a large if, the church community is a good one, a healthy one, then it will offer spiritual growth that you can't get any other place. Humans need human relationship to grow, and I say that as someone who needs lots of alone time.

An intentional community where you can share your path without judgement or correction and hear others where they are, is a third dimension. There was only so far that I could go on my monk's path, alone with my thoughts in the creation. When you are vulnerable with others, and that vulnerability is carefully held, when someone is vulnerable with you and you hold that vulnerability carefully, that is spiritual. Many romantic relationships fail, that doesn't mean that we don't have them. Same with churches.

So yes, you can be spiritual without a church community, but a good church offers something you can't get anywhere else.

john

JKM59;

How well put! I was raised, caught between, a severe fundy institution and my grandparents UCC. In both cases as near toddler and child of one parent family within earshot I heard: "that little Bass Turd wouldn't amount to anything!" Thus an old man's reason was born: "What th'ell's wrong with d's phoqah?" I could have travelled in sect other directions.

I was re born to question Christianity and God beyond the bounds of a self-pro-vained church ... hollow straw. The institution has become an experiment in testing the mind of Love (God's much over the horizon event in this realm), can we alter what has converted mostly into hate ... sane' in old flying lingo of the kite ... Angelic Hebrew, not the warring kind, Michaelangelic perspective of Lite Eire Airy tradition, mate to a beauty like D'viden Dah Vinchi. Sole' fractal by fear alone! Oh the profanity that man uses without understanding word.

Erse while I study the beast and learn a better way ... for another dimension? Did you know that erse was Eire in old sealed tick pill'rs* tongues ... like a La Dei thet'll be the d'athe of U? It's just WORD that we poorly understand ... IT can speak to yah if'n you show interest and don't have too many scars to peel away ... Oenon ... perez' mate ... 'stail mate ... mostly not seen until ID's goan!

*Recall Denver's Grand Mah's Feather Bed ... soft space of the mind ... where everything computes outside the difficult portion of I'lle a'Pyre. Where did Jack lay his head east of Jordan? Is this subversive tactic to hate our sibling in religious tune? I'talle comes back on yah in the end ... echo nomiques ... no universeal sense in the reflection ... lost in a'd'm Mir ... faint image of Primal ID/Love/God! It's a wash of time and t'ide ... mostly erased for fear of routes of reason. The unreasonable loch'd in a corner of the relative infinite ... cosmological X-Pan Zion?

Religion is usually defined as church, but the question is, why call it 'Religion' in the first place???

The way I see it, what you believe should be your way of life, not part of some religious doctorine, and should be YOUR choice, not anyone else's to push down your throat.

For example, with my life, I went RC to Wiccan to Buddhist to Shamanism to Druidry and then to Paganism in general. I've studied Shinto, Australian Aborigine and others along the way, and have taken what I like and put it into my own beleif system-not religion-but belief system, and have done well with life, I don't need a church, don't need a priest to bless anything that I have-I can do it myself-and when I do congregate with like-minded people, it can be from at the park to a museum to other venues, rarely is it a church of any kind.

My point is-you CAN be spiritual, and powerfully so, without the need for a church, for the church system of obligations and penance and so forth and still be happy. Whatever YOU choose to do with your own life, is your own choice, and religion, in all it's 1000+ forms, is proof of that. Choose your own path, do what you feel is best for it, and then go for it, life is one big adventure, why not have your beliefs change with that and with what you need?

Most of all have reverence for what surrounds and supports you ... the fall of isolated sorts ... m'n?

Does an expansion of the undefined mind create re-lining ... relignification like  a matrix in a tree ... make your mark and be sure before any doctrin of what was establishe ... change what is necessarily within your vision. Shed the old stuff beyond its day ... a loupe of bloody metaphor ... common sense John? Thus the matrix: Matte hewn, mark, Liciferous and John ... no one likes change but the story must go on! IT's beyond a hoot!

jkm59,thanks, i concur.

Some of the times when I have felt closest to that which we call God, have been on the land, next to water:  the rocks at Agawa Bay / Lake Superior, the labrynthe at Five Oaks on the edge of the Grand River and Whiteman's Creek.

yet, when lost in a city, torn from the recent loss of a feeling of safety (sept 11), or from the early death of a friend, the place where i sought refuge was in a sanctuary of a church...recognizing the many souls that have gone there before and the peace that resides.

religion, that organized look at spirituality has allowed me to grow in understanding of myself, and my relationship to that which is Holy.  I do not know what God is, I do not know who Jesus was....yet, through asking the questions and trying to live in a better way..making better choices ....being with those who encourage me to choose ways of justice....my spirituality deepens..

The majority of my most spiritual moments have been in the strangest places, and have occurred at the strangest times...

• at the bottom of a cliff after a snowmobile accident
• at the top of a meadow with warm wind blowing across my body
• in a food court just before I eat my Chinese takeout
• in my kitchen hugging a friend as he begins to cry
• in my living room kneeling beneath a lit-up Christmas tree, squinting my eyes to the white lights that look like thousands of tiny, blazing stars (and hope)
• at my computer listening to a favourite song when the chords change and pluck at my heart strings
• experiencing a miracle (there have been more than I can count)

My second newest addition:

• this morning at my computer, while the Spirit poured into me when I found this website

 My newest addition:

• finding my profile icon

Isn't it a quantum hoot ... Love, God is where you least expect it confined because of fear althought the good books repeat many times have no fear ... what do authorities utilize? Is that because of their own unrecognized fears of falling? When the rapture returns t' Homme ... open spaces ... agoriphobia? Now consider the open space offered in a tome ... is there any doubt?

Consider the words: "In the beginning was the word, and the word was Light" ... do we take that seriously? A word on paper is black ... in the emma-Jinn-near-Ai space? Do authorities hate intelli-gentri people ... the intelligencia in old tongues? Caution m'n ... 'e thinks ... h's dangerous like a wisp Ur in the willow'n. Consider the angst of Angels and D'mons ... Brownian emotives? Words flow unlike an isolated m'n ... stone Wahl'd? Institutionalized ID is difficult to escape and learn anything of ... the infinite? That's a metaphor for God the isolated just can't get his mind about IT ... trans send Dan's .. Light on the waters over a babling Golden Pond ... essence of the mind!

Authorities like to praise free will, speech, movement and ownership ... and the Peons? Is there reverence here ... what is referred to as reflective loupe of intelligence? Go figure with some cunning stoppage ... Light arrest? It is the cutting edge of the Jinns tone ... Sol'o'mons Song ... dark phloe of ink'n!?

For the past twenty+ years I have faithfully toiled within the church as a educator. This last year I was sadly mistreated by my church organization and have stopped attending my church on a regular basis - not because I don't believe in its principles, but because of the social and emotional pressures I feel when walking through the doors of the church. So this question of religion and spirituality is very real to me.

At the birth of a church I think that the reason for its existance is a spiritual desire to follow what (in my church's situation) is an informed conscience to share in an organized way what we now have in present-truth revealed. As the church 'matures' into a formal organization it births into a religion with its own creeds and cultures.

What does this do to the spirituality? I think that depends on what happens next - does it lead to a maturing of the spirituality or does it stagnate into another religious organization? Sadly, I see my church as being now very religious and very unspiritual.