Alex...

Thanks for your post, I have had a nagging suspicion in the back of my mind ever since other people received replies and I had not.  I sent a follow up email to Mr. Benson today enquiring if he has any record of any emails from me beyond this new follow up email. I suggested that he look in his Junk/Spam folder, as I had a feeling that my original correspondence was sent to email limbo.

He indeed found it in the Junk/Spam folder and has read it and replied most eloquently.  I think it safe to say he liked my language of referring to Wonder Cafe as a Congregation in my letter.

I believe he is sincere when he says he wants to work with the members of wondercafe.ca to if at all possible find a solution that might enable Wonder Cafe to keep the doors open in some form.  Lets all do everything we can to assist in that endeavour. Keep up the great work everyone. Give your suggestions and recommendations, help test out any program our Techie's suggest testing so that we can present something that may make the difference between continuing or perma - closing.

We may not succeed, but at least we will know in our hearts we didn't give up without trying to save our Wonder Cafe Congregation.

(>-.-)> *Peace* ~ Beyond ~ *Peace* <(-.-<)
 

Steven A. Breeze

Mr. Benson

Nice to meet you.

Thanks so much for joining the conversation....

In my expeirience grief and loss has always interfered with the process of getting on. They are also not like steps, one goes back and forth, and add to that our individual understanding of what has been lost.

Foir example I feel nothing  nothing has been lost yet because where there is life the re is hope, and having gone through terminal diagnoses of my own and many frieinds I am unable to really grieve before I have struggle to keep WC alive, or to transform it into something else.  

I definitly feel angry. Not at anyone, or any one thing, but just at the various things beyond my control that have lead to the possibility of WC closing or being transformed into something which would not be of use or weloming to me.   So I try to come up with scenerios that would help the WC community continue, in some form. 

I feel that if WC will not continue with the connection to the UCC (even if it is just a link on the UCC site)- then the UCC, despite good intentions, has missed the boat once again.
While declaring that the time is there for new kinds of ministry, instead of trying to connect the groups that would benefit from online discussions, the UCC shuts it down.
WC has the potential to connect east and west, rural and city dwellers, inter denomination and interfaith, shut ins, single parents, frustrated UCC members and minorities in fruitful (mostly) conversation. The UCC was progressive enough to create this platform, but now steps back because there is no immediate revenue, while our Moderator's newest slogan calls for "evangelism" and to meet people's longing for meaning and community.
When will the UCC learn to put their money where their mouth is?

Thanks for your comments, Dan.

[quote=mrs.anteater]WC has the potential to connect east and west, rural and city dwellers, inter denomination and interfaith, shut ins, single parents, frustrated UCC members and minorities in fruitful (mostly) conversation. /quote]

WC already does. I think it can also show how an inter-faith that includes atheists can work,  Not only on the internet, but perhaps in the future local UCC congregations that decide to stay open may look at ways of including athiest and other faiths, who have no similar venues in their community.   Wc  just by being first could  show the problems and challenges, mixing people of faith and non faiths and ways to overcome some of  the challenges.

I know that some people studying for the ministry lurk here to educate themsleves as to what and how we talk about subjects.

So maybe some day a UCC will remain in a community becasue of what will be learned here.

Well said, mrs.anteater! 

I like to mess around with word as god (maybe you haven't noticed) and do some mincing since most of what we are fed is mere mincemeat in comparison to the understanding of everything. Some still claim to know everything (god?) ... which makes me chimerii with phtttzz of laughter ... mire daemon in church? Some lean towards the emotional side of I Corinthians 13 and never consider the small allusions to catagorical necessity of understanding wisdom and all that stull ignored by socio/psycho-paths that may verge into psychological monsters of thought without care ... dear me!

Some say one shouldn't mess with god ... while god being everything (not just Love) isolates emon from whatever. Now there's a mouthfull of complexity for those awaiting the KISS Prin or an incident with the BUSS that's not so simple ... like Pede! This comes to fair heresy or apostacy ... speaking of what the heirarchy doesn't know! This is not that difficult I find ... but you're not supposed to do this in excessively ego'd tribes with inturns ... self-centred egos? You know Pedeprin; he who crys loadest in the weal theorem? Doesn't work with wolves we are told unless they have some humanoid character ... then they generate good floating dog Maw ...

I have found you learn more from little people than from the heirarchy ... thus WonderCafe is good for the outlanders and outlandish that get beyond rule and law with sensitive feelings and thoughts ... outrageously dened by the higher powers that may alas be corrupt in the a'priori intent ... as poorly fabricated emotion ... when the good and evil found themselves rye in a land where mortal didn't wish to understand this ... thus the incarnation or that pin in the ass with the application of a Mule Tael ... a workin genre that can get to a hard spot ...

In any case we'll take and another rune atite ... with an edge like a myth ...

Thank you for dropping in Daniel ... sort of like visiting the Lyon's din ... rite ...

Consider the incarnation of god. Incaration is a funny word when you dismantle or disemenant IT; In (sometime internalizing but sometimes meaning "not") car as a carrier or bier (sometimes in Old UK tongues as a charriot of gods in winged version; mercuric) as in a travelling word (like Allah, or allei). Then nate is an old word sometimes for a cat or Felix and at one time indicating wisdom as in Hawthorn, or maybe even sphincter ... explaining the appearance of that limestone (chalcedon, carnellian) beast in the wilderness of Egypt. How present authorities warp the old meanings to get what they wish and remove the thorn from the side of those they don't like to face. Consider Pall of Rome's thorn in his side ... jah Zues did you ever think that would be collective small thoughts?

Then there is the incarnate form of God (dark) as light within the physical carnate or not imbedded ... that'd be explicit right or out there like reason in an unreasonable dimension overun by emotions. Then would the Levite heirarchy believe the wee people to be a dark 4'sum ... and be frightened to death if this all ecclasticized in the end as a gpbshite of trouble they couldn't comprehend.

I used to deal with this daily when working in corporate affairs ... thus I know there has to be a Paul Harvey version ... hey Willy is that apocalypse now?

Such is the nature of the depth of word ... you can cause chaos to a simple man and he doesn't really care as long as he has his physical side in grip ... I have this odd image of long ago in a Zoo with our small children and many adults gathered around a Master orangatang that was baiting the underlying pornographic sense in adults as he precticed onan science ... when the children asked what was going on ... the adults found it ineffable ... and couldn't rightly explain ... perhaps just monkey business!

This practice of avaoiding complexity is still labelled as wrong even with a bloated population. Do you suppose we are slow thinkers ... or just well's crewed crowded myrrh ethe ... with out much in the line of Q'loes in the san where Jah Zues þuteM ... kosher gol-ephe ... invented by those north of Hadrians Wahl?

Imagine they say there's not sacred code ... according to the accumulating laws it is getting deeper and deeper ... ot even the lawmakers understand ...

Good post Mrs. Anteater.  I agree, there is no revenue from Wondercafe . . . and so it is cut, despite the ministry.   As you have mentioned in the many categories you listed . . . it is a ministry to many - many of which would never or could never enter the doors of a congregation.  I too, think as a church this decision is missing the boat.

Hi Beloved, 

Yes, absolutely. Especially at this time with the Comprehensive Review going on & looking for new and innovative ideas. Here we have a wildly successful new way of doing church - - instead of tweaking it a little it is being cut. 

I agree, P3, Mrsanteater and Beloved.

Hi DanielB.B.

Welcome to the discussion,

In the context of the announcement about a closing, rather than migrating to a new platform, the opportunity for WonderCafe.ca 2.0 was missed.

If the context has shifted to a change rather than a closing the opportunity for WonderCafe.ca 2.0 does exist.

Has the context shifted?

I am hearing a hope and a desire to see the context shifted.

Until it actually does shift and that shift is announced.  WonderCafe.ca is running out of time as per the initial notice and the fall back position are the sites initially suggested which do not address the needs of the community using WonderCafe.ca as it currently exists.

I also expect WonderCafe.ca 2.0 would run into some kind of copyright infringement if it was not sanctioned by The United Church of Canada.

I don't know what the answer is.  I trust somebody else might.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Honestly? The only thing that could be an intellectual property issue would be the name Wondercafe and maybe the colour scheme/design. Having a discussion forum focused on religion and faith is too generic to come under any kind of IP protection and the "look and feel" is derivative of the underlying software, not the design.

So, we may not be able to call it Wondercafe 2.0 and have to use a different colour scheme. I'm sure that we can come up with something new for both. However, I would hope that the UCCan would not play IP troll on this. It would not look good on them to say the least.

Mendalla

That's my position as well. If this is to be a split, I want an amicable split.

If splits are being passed out, make mine banana.

I have several questions for anyone in the know. Wasn't Wondercafe started because of a "gift" from someone? I'm not sure if it was the result of a will or just a donation, but am I wrong in thinking it was quite a large amount? Was it a large enough donation that Wondercafe could have been made possible just from using the monthly interest?

Hi Mendalla,

You are forgetting the advertizing campaign and the logo and any graphics used in the construction of the site.  All of the things which identify WonderCafe.ca from any other discussion forum.

I presume that since all current content is on thier space they may not agree that archived threads can be moved as that archived material may also be considered property of the UCCAN.

I'm not wed to the appearance.

What's theirs is theirs right?  Read the User Agreement and Privacy Policy.  All submissions belong to the provider.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Hi waterfall

I'm not exactly "in the know" but here are some articles from the net regarding the cost of the WC as proposed in 2006.  I'm not sure we were ever told how much the WC itself cost apart from the big advertising campaign. There was a lot of advertising and its very expensive. The WC is or was a part of the Emerging Spirit campaign.

Personally I've known people in the past who were running free websites. They had very few members and lots of problems with security, ads, malfunctions etc. I didn't have knowledge of  their forums technology  except that the forums usually didn't last too long. It was a few years ago so possibly there are improvements by now.

From the link:

Here is the link to the $9 million quote above for reference purposes:

http://osocio.org/message/wondercafe/

"Honestly? The only thing that could be an intellectual property issue would be the name Wondercafe and maybe the colour scheme/design. Having a discussion forum focused on religion and faith is too generic to come under any kind of IP protection and the "look and feel" is derivative of the underlying software, not the design."

Does this suggest that intellectual property is beyond or beneath the church?

How about the dungeons of Rome? Such emotional disturbances stir my processing parts ... the cesspool of psyche to those that despise such operational motives ... and thus it goes round ... coré O'Lus effect ... what goes down must come up somewhere as a reaction to what goes up ... there's an Arien degree of lost intelligence in heavy tomes ...

Suppose we should codify these a dialectic thoughts? Can you imagine a quantum dialectic generator of water born self-cooling nature ... a plastic brain theosis? Go way wit' yah ...

How would you get it to work? Oh, an out-of-'ere enigma ... that'd be beyond the nonfunctioning parts rite ... deep gammos pace ... sloe and steady bys ... don't wish to shake up the animas in the bilge ... if they all thought the emotional would be overwhelmed ...

Next stage please ... or is that a metaphorical tier to whett the pyres/Pi R's/well rounded and read Don KISS? The emotional finds aversary their ... close toopposing advocate to creeping ignorance; a pure thoughtless state?

Thanks stardust, I guess I'm wondering if the principal was kept in tact and if the interest was just being used to fund WC and ES. If so, why isn't there enough money to upgrade. 10 million invested at just 5% is alot of money,

I am reminded of the Booths who started the salvation army. William Booth was the pastor of a large church when he asked himself why he was preaching to a crowd that wanted to know God and Jesus and why he wasn't going out to those who didn't s know or want to know. This was the beginning of the Salvation Army. Wondercafe is like a street ministry, it touches lives, it's informing others, it's tolerant of the weakest, those who question,etc.....It is a pioneering ministry for the UCC. I hope this vision isn't lost, in fact it would be a great disservice to not improve it and make it more accessible.

Emerging Spirit (the United Church program which launched WonderCafe) was funded by the Morrison Bequest. It was a ~$20 million bequest, some of which was used for WonderCafe. The funds were invested as far as I know, and have been used for a variety of purposes. After Emerging Spirit ended, WonderCafe was kept going with General Council approval, but then funding came from the Mission and Service Fund. As folks know, there are less M&S funds these days and it still has to support a wide variety of programs across Canada and around the world, so decisions have had to be made including layoffs, cut backs, etc. Dan explained some of those in his post.

Besides WonderCafe.ca, was Emerging Spirit a success (iyo)?  Sorry, I can't name much that is ongoing except Wondercafe!!!!

Hi crazyheart,

Emerging Spirit was a three year project that was not renewed.  If memory serves Emerging Spirit took flight in 2006 and was grounded at the end of 2009.  WonderCafe.ca is the only element of the Emerging Spirit Campaign which lasted.

Success is difficult to track.

There were some criticisms of the rollout of the campaign and invariably one of those criticisms was that the United Church of the Campaign is very different from the United Church on the corner.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Yes, it depends on the criteria you use for success. I think it was successful at bringing together a conversation on the future of the church in Canada that was already happening in many different places. It also came at a good time, when the United Church was making a significant transition (one that is still happening). But I'm biased because I was part of Emerging Spirit from the beginning. :-)

There is a thread on the Religion page about Christianity online with a link to a presentation by a Bishop in the Church of England.  Just mentioning it here so there is less chance of people not seeing it.

Agreed, hard to say how those initial threads of understanding of people went.

The financial state of the UC is beyond my comprehension but nevertheless I like to explore it. This is some  info. from 2009. Whew...such big figures....!!!!..incoming and outgoing.

Mission and Service IC

In 2009, the UCW gave $1,896,000 to the Mission and Service Fund and raised over $13,000,000 for local purposes.

The Moores wanted to make a difference, so they listed 51 charitable or religious organizations in their wills. Among those remembered was the United Church. The Moores looked beyond themselves and wanted our church to do the same. On their deaths they made bequests to their local congregation, the national United Church through the Mission and Service Fund, and for global work through World Development and Relief.

When the estate was settled in 2009, The United Church of Canada had received a total of $3.1 million.

In 2009, the church received $1.6 million in such gifts from individuals.

Local congregations of the United Church received 667 estate bequests valued at $16.8 million.

http://www.united-church.ca/getinvolved/donate/howto/planned

Update 2013 Mission and Service:

(This may not mean a whole lot to many people but still its informative.)

stardust, how is this relevant to this thread?

Pinga

Doesn't the OP say there is no money in the kitty to update the WC?  I simply wanted to have a peek at where some of  the UC  money is being spent.

Pinga:

I posted a 2013 Mission and Service  update in case you missed it. I was just astounded at the amount of monies the UC was or is  involved with, incoming and outgoing. Its such a huge organization and here we are talking about needing  a free website .Its kind of funny? All the poor people must be here on the WC......?.....please don't mind a joke......

Our former congregation had been supported byM&S in the past for three years @ 10 000/ year (I think). With the tighter budget, this was not continued, and here we are- now amalgamated with three other sites (which were within a 20km radius).
I would think that the UCC has gotten wiser in supporting small congregations and limits this kind of support to minority groups like french ministry or up north ministry.
However, I dare say that WC could count as a special ministry worth supporting especially because it opens to a whole different population. $10 000 doesn't seem to be too big an amount.

The gifts with vision catalogue has just come out- there would have been a chance to make WC a subject worthwhile a donation (and make more people aware of it).

Poor in intelligence and fecund minds ...

Those well up there in Eire decree IT that way ...

So the cycle continues ... the eternal battle meant to eliminate mankind from the bottom up ... mony does that to peole they loose the primal ID ... the 1st Q'lue given us from everything ... G~D? No there's an occult comment ...

The bottom layer gets theis now Job ... something you must get through or over --- Sisyphus!

What happens when the female genre is left out ... and chi's all about us ... like Jesus said heaven and "eLLe if you don't care where you're stepping in the cosmic Dan's ...

And it was decreed by those that didn't see: "H'Is out of here"! And thus IT wasn't ...

Few good men were aware of IT as a thought taking flight ... shadows amoung the angels that were numbi*nous about what goes on under the heavens ...Ecclesiastes 3:1.

Such are the goings on in hyperbolic dimensions of soul .. a convoluted thing that may be subtle and imaginary ... but other-wise reality ... alternate reality to what you wish for?

A thought can cost yah ... and some would give up everything to not go there ... thinking that is! Sort like the realm of the medium of en Dore ... takes you beyond yourself! NOS Hite ...

Glad Daniel BB stopped by. Wondercafe is like a congregation-with the exception of those attending are not contributing offerings. I would contribute some to keep it going.

Tabitha

I would also contribute. I think many of us would.

Notwithstanding the discussions re alternate means to keep Wondercafe going, I think we are toast. 

I don't get the pessimism. I just don't. Most forum communities would love to be starting from this sort of position, with a ready-made user base.

I am looking forward to trying some other forum board set ups.  I'm currently partial to Invision since it is much like WC.

I think I asked this on the Invision board but not here, I was curious if the Invision board could be set up like here showing us the newest post from the point we last browsed the forums.  I don't know, I had no way to test that and no one responded about it when we were testing it.

One of the sites I'm a member of uses phpBB I think it's called. Not bad, Yet Invision still gets my 's up. But, again am very open to testing and trying other boards. Just provide a link and I'll be happy to try them.

(>-.-)> *Peace* ~ Beyond ~ *Peace* <(-.-<)

Steven A. Breeze

it worked for me, it depended on which link you chose, I think.

I will look again if I spin up a new one.

HI Pinga

I looked back over my other post and I realized I didn't explain it well.  You know how here on WC. when there are new posts it tells you how many for the thread discussion.

And if you click on that number it took you to the newest post since your last visit to that thread. I don't recall if Invision had that option, at least I didn't notice it.

Does that make more sense? I found Invision took me to the very last new post and not where I had left off reading the thread.  I was wondering if Invision could be customized somehow to do that like here on WC?

Sorry for not explaining it better before.

(>-.-)> *Peace* ~ Beyond ~ *Peace* <(-.-<)

Steven A. Breeze

Yes, that makes sense, and yes, I stumbled across it, it was one of the ways you clicked.

I just dont' remember what it was.

Hi All,

Apart from the discussion we have had amongst ourselves is any aware of ongoing conversation with enity or entities at General Council?

Dan Benson popped in for a bit is anyone in ongoing conversation with him for example?

Grace and peace to you.

John

Dan got back to me in November, but had no answers. I followed up with asked a couple of questions about the domain and archive of posts. I have just followed up again now with Dan.

I'll let you know if and when I get answers. Thanks for reminding me.

Based on another thread, where it was suggested that I reach out to the United Church of Canada reps, I have requested conversation through Aaron to speak to GC individuals.

I was advised that they were quite busy with the prep for the United Future launch but could arrange a time later.

Just curious ~ any updates? Has anyone at General Council found the time to discuss Wondercafe and "an advanced environment that is better able to serve the needs of the users"

Would an amalgamation with the United Future site be feasible?