Hi Aaron,

Thanks for the heads up.

Right now the cynical side of me is fuming.  I should probably sit on my hands for a bit betore typing something I will regret.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Sad to hear.  A change yes, but not a total goodbye as there are other options.

Those options don't work as while while maintaining a reasonable amount of anonymity though.  I'm not sure whether I'll be using any of those.

I wonder if now would be a good time to discuss where else we could meet? I prefer not to use Facebook as well. I don't like it.

Anyone willing to start a blog for this purpose? I don't have enough time to manage one.

Sad to see. I'll have to find another site for my blog.

My heart is indeed saddened to hear this news.  I suppose I always knew this day would come but had hopes of it never coming to pass.  I've mostly only talked with people here on the cafe and really haven't gotten to know you all as well as I would have liked to.  I understand why people would like to keep their privacy and anonymity.  Places like facebook does not allow that. I would like to share something I wrote years ago... so now you all know my name.

(Friendships)

I looked into the mirror and asked...
Who is this- walking towards a destiny through darkness and confusion.
Where clarity is but a tiny ember in the heart of a tornado's hurricane.
Who is this- coming to this place uncertain and unsure knowing not what would be found questioning within themselves do I fit in, belong or will they sit in judgement of me here.
Fear and doubt assail like a winter hailstorm.
All threads are interconnected in the tapestry of  life, intertwined, touching and departing.
Our threads are for but a brief time knotted together. The time has come for our threads to go their separate ways.
Some will be remembered no more passing into obscurity, while for others lasting friendships have been forged blending skill mind and heart.
Because our threads have crossed and touched we will take with us the best parts of those we have encountered.
We take with us their smiles and humor.
We take with us their joys and aspirations.
We take with us their kindness and compassion.
We take with us the their confidence we will succeed.
The simple words...thank you say more than all that could ever be penned.
May they express where my words fail the depth of my friendship for all of you.

Written By: Steven A. Breeze

I think that says it all.  I will continue to take part in Wonder Cafe right up to the final moment.  My thoughts, my prayers, my hope for each and everyone of your journeys lead you to your destination.

Steven A. Breeze

aka: MaDiva

aka: Tao

aka: Wolfie

There must be a "techie" here who uses other platforms who knows what else we could do.

Speaking for myself, and possibly others, Wondercafe will be sorely missed. The mentoring and access to the many ministers and others that have taken the time to respond to many of us will undoubtfully leave a void in our lives. Wondercafe has had a unique ability to keep me ever mindful of God throughout my day, in a way that no conventional church ever could. It has pushed my faith forward. The questions, the answers have served me well and I will be forever grateful that this opportunity for higher learning ever existed and that I was here along with so many diverse and wonderful people.

Me too. Very sad. I don't have words. Just really found this place to be a virtual family and incredible learning place. Before I get too sad, I don't want to grieve yet- just thinking about where we could regroup as a family besides facebook. It'll be a little different- will miss the look and ease of this site, too.

Like John, I won't say anything until I have calmed. Thanks Aaron.

Thank you, Aaron, for keeping Wonder Cafe going for us all this time!

as Aaron said-to everything there is a season

I'll certianly miss wondercafe but I am on facebook and several wondercafe friends are facebook friends-and have met several in real life.

I'm saddened but accepting

So sad.  I haven't been posting much lately, but knowing this place is here has been such a comfort to me.  Even when I don't have time to post, I come here to read and reflect.

 Wonderful friendships have been formed here, tremendous opportunties for growth and learning have been presented and my understanding of the world around me has been deepened thanks to wondercafe.

Thanks to admin for keeping this website up and running, thanks UCC for providing this service for all of these years, and thanks to all of you for your contributions.

Thanks for letting us know in advance of the closing date so that we may prepare.  For myself and many others, this will be huge loss.  

Maybe we should invite sponsors to advertise on Wondercafe? (not crazy about the idea, but..................)

What does it cost to run this site Aaron?

"With or Without the UCC" oh the irony. :)

This is bad news bare ... rye?

Like many others, I will not take up any other options for reasons already stated ...

For those I haven't already contacted through private email ... there is time to make contact.

I enjoyed the banter even with those that despise caring intellect as expressed through cynacism and satire ... I will continue to search out the collective mind for all that is unconscious to me ...

Obviously some are not interested in such flotsom and jetsom of the lessor realms ... that's OK but don't get upset with my prying into the common larder ... sometimes known as meme-nun ... common space that amounts to nothing to many powers ... so it just isn't in their line of sight ... the nun part ... I'll hang onto de nones until it'sall ova ...

Maybe flow over into PC's Site ... like one out of da' Qu Qu'es Nest ...

Regards to all,

WB

Aaron, I agree this is a heavily-customized Drupal site, which would be difficult and expensive to port to Drupal 7. But let's face it - most of the traffic and interest here is in the forums.

I know there are ways to migrate the MySQL database for the forum and users to a new site. Would the UCCan be interested in letting go of this information so a simple forum could be set up by a third party?

I wouldn't mind starting over at a new forum, whether or not it's hosted by the UCCan.  I wouldn't want to be giving out personal info to just any host though.  I'd be willing to help at a new place, but I'm lacking in tech knowledge.

Hi all.

I haven't posted here a whole lot in the last year or so.  I am sorry to hear this.  

It has been a long time since I have been on this site and there lies the rub, eh ... we always take the very things that have given great comfort and, yes, joy for granted.  We think they'll always be there and then one day we find them gone and lament the loss.

So, a thank you to Aaron for giving the heads up.

PS - the irony is not lost on me that I first saw this post  in Facebook ;-)

LB

--

“Everything comes to an end. A good bottle of wine, a summer’s day, a long-running sitcom, one’s life, and eventually our species. The question for many of us is not that everything will come to an end but when. And can we do anything vaguely useful until it does?”
― Jasper Fforde, The Woman Who Died a Lot

In addition to the technical and security risks, there are also the human resources required for admin.

Folks like Stephen Booth irk me due to the cost of all the noise they make.

Then there are the age old argumeents with people bitching about too little or too much moderation.

Funny, a bit ago  I said, "it is time".  Whether we wish it to or not, it has evolved to a C&E type church, the folks who come out of the woodworks when a key decision is to be made, the regulars who are present and love the space, and the influx at times of great noise or celebration, such as C&E.

It's ok and good to transform.  I wonder how that will be.  Anyone with ideas?

Hi LBMuskoka,

Have missed you and your wonderful quotes. 

I, too, am saddened by this news. 

Thank you for sharing this news, Aaron, as well as your thoughtful words. While I joined wondercafe very early on and was a regular for quite a time, I have not been on wondercafe for the past number of months and like LB, I saw this information posted on facebook. I know there are people for whom this site continues to be very important and I will be thinking of those of you for whom this news will be especially upsettting. I share in the sadness of the loss of this venue for connecting, sharing, learning, but also understand the reasons for this decision.

To be fair, I think a lot of us saw this coming for a while now. Not only is maintaining this site a running line item on the UCCan's books, it's pretty much a sunk cost and predictably will be as long as it's running. Think about how many people have come here to say that Wondercafe brought them to the church. Now think about how many people have announced  on this site that they no longer believe. In my mind, both numbers are remarkably small, but the second number is larger than the first. That's just the direction most conversions are going, and WC could not change that. Especially when it allowed non-Christian voices - don't get me wrong, I'm very thankful they did, but open discussion is not a recipe for Christian recruitment.

So, in a church with declining congregations and revenues, I can see why this service would be declared "non-essential", especially when the site is begging for an expensive upgrade as Drupal 6 fades into the sunset.

For those of us who are more comfortable with a forum environment, this sucks. I know I'm not a fan of Facebook. Twitter is for short, fleeting comments and is lousy for discussion. I wouldn't be against helping move the site, though it's been years since I worked behind the scenes on a forum as large as this one. My knowledge is far from current. All this depends on UCCan releasing the database, which I doubt they would do. My guess is the plug would be pulled at the end of June, and the content would be destroyed.

Starting from scratch would be problematic. Anyone can set up a forum on inexpensive shared hosting space, but generating interest and getting people to move over without having that posting history as a jump-off point for discussion is historically difficult, in my experience.

Sad but not at all surprising, so I don't have the angry and/or cynical reactions that others have spoken of. I've been back and forth in terms of involvement here. Sometimes very active, sometimes going months without being here, sometimes (as recently) only contributing periodically. But I have come to know a lot of the regular posters here and while I don't always agree with them I've appreciated the (mostly) respectful way in which conversations and debates have been conducted. I think this was a worthwhile endeavour, and I don't think it would work as well on Facebook or Twitter. I'd be on board with moving to another forum, but I am definitely not a techie - so I'd have to leave that to others.

Well, like LB I saw this news first on Facebook so maybe it is some sort of sign.  Still I hate to hear that the Wondercafe is closing.  There are lots of interesting people hear and lots of us have made some real world friends as a result of our virtual meetings.  It is this part of the closing that bothers me because WC really was a "community" and now it is about to be atomized.  Where can we go post-closing to find them?  Some will move to the WC facebook group and maybe some won't.  IHow are we going to know how Graeme is doing and what he is thinking out in NB.  What about LB in Muskoka? Redhead is an interesting person I wouldn't want to lose track of. Revjohn.  Chansen and his son Cartert.  All the people out west.  Pilgrims Progress out in Australia.  If Wondercafe has a mission for the rest of its existence it should be to migrate all these people to a safe harbour elsewhere on the net so that the community is not lost.

FB is great for one way posting but my experience has been that it doesn't cut it for conversation. LIkewise Twitter. A proper, forum-based board system is needed for discussion. I've never been overly fond of the software WC uses (most boards I'm on use vBulletin which I find much easier to work with, esp. for editing) but it does the job well enough.

Chansen, if someone had the resources (server and database space), I'd be willing to volunteer some time to help run it. Could not do it on my own, though, since I haven't admin'd Drupal before and would need some time to get up to speed on it and on the board specific software. However, as you suggest, being able to transfer the existing database would be critical if we want to keep the current community intact.

WC has been a wonderful place for me. To be honest, I haven't found that many wide open forums where free-wheeling, relatively mod-free conversations about religion can be had. rpg.net, my other regular forum site, has never been especially friendly to religious discussion (religion bashing, maybe, but never religious discussion) and the admin and mods there now discourage religion threads since they usually end up in flames. I have made some friends here, learned new respect for a number of points of views, and generally found it a great place to hang out.

I'll be hanging on until June and, as said, would love to be a part of any effort to revive it elsewhere.

Mendalla

I am saddened to hear this, but not surprised. I have to come to really appreciate the folks I have connected with on this site - some of whom I have met in real life, others I have simply connected with virtually. 

Thank you Aaron and other admins for all you have done around here - and thank you also for giving us so much warning!

No, no, no, no, no.   (My initial reaction).

My only followup thought is, man, what lengths you guys will go to, to keep Stephen Booth off Wondercafe.

Hi all,

I heard this news over on Facebook today and I came on over here to share my own sadness with a community that for quite some time was perhaps a small, but nonetheless vitally important, part of my life.

I suppose I should admit that I am one of those who, while a regular (ish) for a year or two awhile back, I have had pretty much zero presence on Wonder Cafe in the last fair while (although I've lurked from time to time). There were lots of reasons for this ... yes, probably finding a certain amount of my online 'screen time' being occupied by other networking sites such as Facebook had something to do with it. Finally settling down and finding a 'real-world' faith community probably contributed also. And yes, life happened ... my two 'babies' were no longer immobile, frequently-sleeping lumps ... I went from zero jobs to three ...

But I still find myself saddened. At a time where I was revisiting the church as an adult (as opposed to a teenager), this place helped me figure out just what my adult faith looked like - it was a place to 'think aloud' as it were, to challenge and be challenged, to hear different viewpoints and see which of mine held up and which didn't upon discussion. It was a brief, shining moment for me, unlike many of you for whom it has been a regular and sustaining community, but it was incredbly important and formative in my faith development.

At a time when my family was in crisis due to addiction and mental illness, and there was a need both to speak to someone(s) who could provide caring support while also providing anonymity and discretion in regards to some incredibly delicate issues that were not just my own, Wondercafe was there and sustained me spiritually.

At a time when I very much wanted a faith community but was too transient to really develop one (a very new mother who moved three times in four years between three different cities), this was my place. It was my resource when we finally did settle down in Ottawa that guided me to my amazing worship community that I have found here.

It is a bit like a friendship ending after perhaps having drifted away a bit, perhaps having taken it for granted ... it sounds like there are reasons and perhaps it's time ... but the officialness, the realness, and perhaps even the realization that the lack of engagement, the absence, the assumption it would always be there, had something to do with it too, leaves me unhappy.

I hope Wondercafe lives on in some way or another - on FB or in a different set of forums or what have you - and whatever 'new life' it takes on, I resolve now that I will continue to stay in touch ... perhaps more at some times than others ... and I'm hoping that all of us WC has touched - in big ways or small - can maybe find the time in the months ahead, to value and honour this community that I think has come to mean something to all of us.

Grace and peace - OS.

I hadn't really thought about it before, but I was just on Facebook and checked out my "Friends" list. It's surprising to me how many Facebook friends I have who I actually met here at WC, who I now have regular contact with on FB. It just surprised me to look at the names, and realize - "Yeah. I got to know them at Wonder Cafe."

I can see the headline:

Atheist saved the Church! (website)

May it be so.

While Wondercafe may not have increased the amount of believers, it certainly has helped me sticking it out in the United Church when locally church congregation has been just dead. It has widened the horizon and given hope that not all is lost in the UCC and more so the information that there are actually amazing things happening- be it the link to live General Council or to Truth and Reconciliation events.

It connected west with east.

I am not a fan of facebook- it just has a messy appearance and it's not useful for longer conversations or discussions. I don't use it. I'd be loosing a great source of information with wondercafe.

this made me so sad.  I know, I haven't been around so much, but I'm  never far away.  I promote it, keep in touch with WC friends, dig through it for discussion fodder, even my sweetheart & kids are friends with some of you folks, and know the stories.  I am grateful that right now, I've been working more (increased hours in my church) and exercising (30lbs gone) and having a good time, but it has meant less time to settle in and 'wonder.' 

Seeing your comments here, especially Crazyheart (((hugs))) made me cry.  I'm ok with facebook for keeping in touch, but somehow on FB we can't talk about the real stuff, or keep giving updates in detail, or grumble out loud anonymously.  I have never tried hard to hide here, and have indeed been outed by nasty people, but at least there was usually a respected confidentiality. 

Can we come up with something different?  I know little about such things, but that would be WONDERful.

That's one strike against my involvement. Me having any form of admin control over anything called "Wondercafe" would cause Aaron to vomit uncontrollably.

Absolutely. It's a loss.

Let's see what the UCCan wants to do with the database and the domain. Maybe they'd be open to a transfer.

Starting again and making sure everyone knew where to find a new forum would be doable. Unless the UCCan agreed to export the database of users and posts, it would be like starting from scratch, with no existing posts, new registerations for all, and a new web address.

I don't visit as often as I used to, but I can say this:

In RL I have amde a few very good friends because of the Cafe.

And when I was in hopsital for over two years, the support of this community was outstanding, and I know that people here were praying for my recovery, or holding me in their thoughts  and sending me well wishes.  I owe a debt of gratitude for that outpouring of care that I can never fully repay - but I promise always to pay it forward to the best of my ability.

This site is really important to many, but I do understand the nature of the operating problems and also the operation costs.

I do hope that somehow, in the future, something akin to WC will exist.

Even if they didn't give the new manager the database, maybe a deal could be done to to have them put a forwarder from www.wondercafe.ca to the new site. Of course, if shutting down WC includes letting the registration lapse once it hits next renewal, then a new admin group could just buy the domain from them.

The question is, is there enough interest to put the hours and money to even try? It sounds like chansen and I may be able to put together the skill set but I'm not inclined to play the "if you build it, they will come" card. I'd want to know that there is real interest in doing something, whether it is completely new or a continuation.

Mendalla

LOL. I think we can finesse that one somehow. Or just buy him some Gravol.

Mendalla

Hi All,

I'm better settled now.  I'm not any happier.

I hate to shoot the messenger Aaron.  Give me another name to go after and I will gladly edit this post.

This is my complaint.  The Church has a ministry and that ministry has a cost.  The Church decides to fund that cost in a certain way and then a funding crisis hits and the Church essentially flips an element of that ministry the bird.

This is the line which pulled the trigger on that thought:

I'm calling bullshit.  The Church doesn't give a damn about keeping contact.

It doesn't give a damn because it never came directly to WonderCafe.ca and said, "here's the scoop, we cannot continue to fund this as we have been."  The Church never came to the users and gave us any options or decided we were stakeholder enough to participate in any discussion about the future of WonderCafe.ca

It doesn't give a damn because those of us with any kind of history in the Church know that a significant majority of any congregation does not transfer membership when a congregation disbands.  It languishes, disconnected and adrift.

Facebook is lifted up as an alternative.  As far as alternatives go Facebook blows chunks as a discussion forum.  The only plus is Facebook won't cost the Church a dime and they can now happily cut some personnel because they will be rendered obsolete.  The people here do not matter because the people here do not provide an identifiable revenue stream.

It simply doesn't give a damn.

This was a decision made on dwindling resources and rather than come to the users and ask, what are you willing to pay they have decided to say as of such and such a date you are on your own.

Except that we aren't being moved on to an advanced environment.  We are being deprived of an environment in the hopes that we will find out way elsewhere.  If we had all been carping about the problems with WonderCafe.ca then I think that the concern for the needs of the users would appear more genuine than it is.

The only benefit sought in this decision is the immediate financial benefit to the Church now that it no longer is funding this project and sadly, to all who were part in making this decision possible that is the only benefit that matters.

I am disappointed.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Thanks for your thoughts everybody. I too will miss it and the community that has gathered here. 

Waterfall, the site doesn't cost too much to run, but the software it is build on is being phased out and that means new updates and security patches will no longer be issued for it, which would leave the site and its members vulnerable. It would be costly to upgrade (something that would need to happen every few years) and it's been decided that that money is better spent on other priorities as we move forward. The site will be archived, hopefully in a form that can be readily accessed for reading. 

I do hope folks here (including me) can continue to stay connected to one another online, on Facebook or Twitter, or one of the platforms that were mentioned. 

I am very thankful for everybody's participation in WonderCafe over the years - it was your interactions, wisdom, and openness that really made WonderCafe happen - and it wouldn't have been as successful as it has been if not for you.

Thanks all.

Hi RevJohn,

Thanks for your response. I definitely get your concerns. I believe the church actually does want to continue to be in contact with folks who have been a part of WonderCafe, but the financial situation is real and, because there are other options available that are both more economical and more accessible, it's been decided to go a different direction. I truly hope the United Church would be able to host an online community that is similar to WonderCafe in the future, but it would have to be something that is sustainable into the future. But at this time there are other priorities that are seen as more pressing. There are lots of possibilities ahead, but it will take work to discover the best ways to go, ways that are both sustainable as well as help the United Church fulfill its role and calling in this online sphere that is so rapidly changing.

I'm not happy about it either (though I've had longer to come to grips with the decision than others), but I've accepted it and have come to hope that there can be an even brighter future.

Aaron

Facebook? More accessible? To whom?

I was here far more than I am now. Yet, I can honestly say I might not likely be too busy for Wondercafe if not for Wondercafe. I came on and just read. It was a tough time in church. The day I logged on was the day that the Wondercafe ad with the men on the cake was violently ripped up. It was here that I fully learned that the little church in town was not "The United Church of Canada" it was just one church in a larger something else. This place let me see outside the little town around me. It was a glimmer of hope. One day, I wondermailed a Reverend to ask about baptism. I got advice and a contact in RL. I always felt a call, but always told myself "you have to be kidding?" This was where I felt my call first validated by others. When asked to lead worship in my church, I said no. I wondermailed someone about it and they asked me why I was saying no. They urged me to get out of the way. It is why I lead my first worship. This is where I learned about Five Oaks and the LLWL program. You think everyone knows everything, but they don't. Information and communication is where we fall down. I had sat in a UCC for 5 years and had never heard of LLWL's or Five Oaks. Even here in my appointment location, people did not know what a LLWL was or what Five Oaks was. It was here I learned about discernment. It is here where I said I had no options other than a DLM that I learned about the MBO program. Not a one on my discernment committee had heard of it before. Some people from Wondercafe felt that they could provide references on my critical thinking based on posts here. This place has also helped when things needed figured out or there was a manual question. This is how I have navigated the process. This is where I have posed questions from everything from my own baptism to my presiding at the table for the Eucharist. I will miss it come June and I am not sure a price tag can be put on what this place has meant or has accomplished. Had it been Facebook, I never would have asked my first question about baptism. Why? Because nobody here said "Oh, you are BlanketyBlank and Rev So&So is your minister... uh...well...."  and nobody could go to Rev So&So and make my life harder.  Instead, they said, "It is up to the session". Thank you, for answering that first question, LoveJoy! (ask me again in a few years and I may have something else to say)

I have learned far more here about the United Church of Canada than I ever learned in a local congregation. 

This represents an end of an era, it really does.

Without once asking for donations or even setting up a way one might do that, just closing the church and ministry that people came here for? If you ask me, it is kinda rude when you cite finances as the reason. But, nobody asked. Just saying.... (One wonders when reviews will help guide us towards asking instead of telling)

I agree with most of what Rev John and SG said.

To be honest, I don't know if WC would last just by taking donations by users.  I would be willing to donate for a little while, but I suspect the feel would really change to something I wouldn't want to support.

There are other options - ads (FB has them, so do other forums).  What about amalgamating?  Churches do it all the time.  It would be different, I don't know if another site exists to amalgamate with.  Rather it might look like including churches other than UCCan ones as hosts.  That would be a big change, but WC has changed since I first joined.

Had we been asked about what to do, a solution to keep WC running may have been found, even if it meant a different form of WC.

As for wanting to keep in contact - how?  By Aaron coming and making a few posts?  WC does have some contact information for some of us, is that going to be utilized at all for those who might miss the admin posts?

I forgot, I will hang a Christmas ornament given to me by someone on Wondercafe, as I have for years. My dog wears a sweater from someone on Wondercafe. It was given to another dog, and when that dog died I poured it out here. The new little one wears it with pride. I headed west to see my neice-in-law and stopped to see some folks from Wondercafe. I stayed a day or two with one. My Facebook profile pic is my dog on holiday with them. A special cane is on the wall in my office that came from someone on Wondercafe. My first "visitor" in my new appointment, before my first boxes were unpacked, was someone from Wondercafe. I want to scream, "Better spent, my ass!", but I know nobody is listening but the others saying the same thing.